The flaws with 'Suffer the Children'
Following up @Ghetsis 's example, I thought it'd be neat to make a quick thread focusing on flaws and issues with Episode 2 since there seemingly wasn't one.
Some guidelines for what may count if you're not sure what to say:
- Things that bugged you.
- Gameplay hiccups or oddities.
- Characters that felt neglected, inconsistent, or otherwise.
- Screentime for any given or scene.
- Opportunities that weren't capitalized on.
These are just broad examples, though. Feel free to address your feelings on this episode, how much you enjoyed it, ideas that could've made it better, etc.
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Comments
Only prob I saw was with Louis hair but only for one part. But we have to give Telltale credit over everything that's happened.
The first thing that comes in mind right now is Lilly.
Her reunion felt forced,i also didn't like the "evil options" it's like they put these options in the game for the people who hate Lilly.
"I don't give a fuck who you are,you evil bitch !!!" ...
And i feel like she needed more screen time.
Like i said before in another thread i'm hoping they do something interesting with her in episode 3,because otherwise she may as well be a completely new character.
There definitely weren't a lot of things that bugged me about the episode. I'd have to really think about it. The only one I have in mind right at the moment is a common Telltale normality at this point, and it was the lack of difference from the choice with Abel in 'Done Running'. Not much to explain here really. I just feel like if all the choice does is sever an arm that doesn't even really end up changing the fight in your favor at all or even the dialogue for that matter, it really was just a waste of time. There could be more, but I'd really have to think about it. Or play it again cause I might be missing some obvious ones.
I found one when I first played it that night and it was when you had to check back in with Violet after seeing if everyone was okay and ready for the fight. There was a slight skip in the scene. It doesn't happen everytime, but it's there. When Violet asks the question, and their about to sit down, it just kinda skips to the choices given and drops her dialogue in that instance. Guess they didn't get the chance to see that before the layoffs.
Aasim, Ruby, and Mitch were given more characterization in this episode. I was fine with all of them really. Mitch is probably the only one I'd say I had an issue with, and it's not because he was a jerk. It was because it's like he didn't know what the hell he wanted. One minute he's mad, the next minute he's open to talk, the next he gets all bent out of shape because of the teacher that Ruby wanted to bury, as if there was something more there, but it was never explored cause he took a knife to the throat by the end of it. Mitch had a lot to say this episode and it seemed like there was more to him with the whole teacher thing in the greenhouse, but ultimately, it amounted to nothing. That was disappointing.
Violet is the next one, but I've already said a lot about her in previous threads. Her leadership wasn't totally earned in this episode, despite being likely the most praised character among the community because of said leadership. Her being for Clem and AJ makes sense due to her grudge against Marlon, but she said it herself she's 'not good with people'. The leadership role suits her. And it seemed like the right choice rather than Clem right off the bat. The issue was it was too quick. It felt instant.
I don't really get what you were looking for here due to the wording.
Like I said, I feel like they missed some cool and important characterization with Mitch in the greenhouse. There was no reason to get all bent out of shape just cause Ruby wanted to bury their teacher. They buried Brody, who was a walker just like her, and Mitch, to our knowledge, had no problems with it. Due to the lack of backstory there, it just comes off as a forced tantrum to make him look like a dick. The likes of what we saw in Thicker Than Water with Gabe, really. That could've and should've been done better. We could probably infer from Mitch's destructive nature that he wasn't Ms. Martin's favorite, but even so, that's just an inference.
I also feel like they could've shown Louis and Violet interacting more. For the majority of this episode aside from the game, they were shown bickering and that's their dynamic, I get it. Maybe this is planned for Broken Toys or even Take Us Back, but I'd like to see them really apprieciate each other's company more. Violet's obvious grudge against Marlon was the thing that kept them at odds for most of the episode, but I feel like they could've added more meaning between their relationship in some way, that way their reaction when one of them gets taken feels completely earned, rather than only partially earned.
Overall, I really really liked the episode. One thing I feel like they could've done better was the romance, even though I loved it. Their way of making us choose was to literally throw the decision in your face by dividing Louis and Violet. I feel like it could've been less pushed and more natural. I don't know how they could've done it, but it probably could've been less cheesy, as much as I fangasmed over both scenes. I also didn't particularly like the fast forward 2 week time skip. I get it, but I feel like it could've been a montage at the very least of watching them prepare and somewhere in the middle, give us the ability to check in with the others. Probably could've initiated the romance there, could've given more characterization to some characters. Given Mitch the justice he needed, etc. Instead, we're made to watch Clem go in and out, night and day, and watch AJ sleep. It was kinda lazy.
This got much longer than I anticipated, but I believe that's it, for now at least.
It felt a lot more linear than Episode 1. There are so many little details that could have added, like how many/which kids get kidnapped, how many raiders you kill, AJ actually killing Abel, more dialogue options in the reunion with Lily, the option to shun out the school group instead of just Louis and Mitch, etc.
My only real flaw with ep 2 is Lilly. She isnt really explained at all and Im worried we may not even get a chance for us to interact in a more meaningful way. This also goes for the raiders as I feel they are kinda weak in terms of story telling and Im worried they are just trying to use Lilly as an excuse for not really making the antagonist that believable.
I wouldn't say "things that bugged you" are flaws, because you can be bothered by something that's perfectly fine. (eyeballs half the forum)
Omar and Lilly were lacking. Omar needs more blatant development, and it's hard to say what's wrong on Lilly's end, but the sympathizing and antagonizing of her needs to be more solid (and in the case of the latter, less heavy-handed).
Pretty much what everyone else has already said about Lilly, that her return was extremely rushed and wasn't given the time and impact it should've been. I also think Aasism should've had a bigger role and they need to do something with Omar already.
Mitch's death was realllyyyy anti-climatic. That was one of the major issues for me. And the fact that Lilly's re-introduction was pretty short.
I absolutely loved this episode, I liked it even more than Ep. 1 and I thought that episode 1 was (almost) a masterpiece.
The only real flaw in ep. 2 is for me Lily too, I think she should've got more screentime. It also felt like that they pushed you to go with Violet instead of Louis. In my very first playthrough, I went with Violet, 'cause I thought we'd be doing something important in terms of preparation for the final-fight, while Louis just wants to play on the piano with Clementine - I just thought that I had to choose between helping Violet with something important or helping Louis with his piano-project.
About bugs: In my first playthrough, I didn't see any bugs or something like that. Everything was fine, no animation-bugs or anything else. But, in my second playthrough, when I played with the German dub, I had major animation-bugs and "spawn" bugs. For example, in the final fight, all the characters just spawned on-screen, and the animation-bugs were really annoying. Clementine's head was spinning like the Exorcist, teleportations from other characters etc. And I witnessed some audio-bugs too, where characters talked at the same time, as if the audio files were overdubbed. It has to be because of the German Dub, when I changed the settings to English Dub again, all the bugs were gone. Kinda sad, the German Dub was actually pretty decent and I liked it (not more than English obviously). In ep. 1, I hadn't any bugs with the German Dub.
Yeah,i've heard the same complaints with others people who played the game in French,i guess they couldn't fix that because of the layoffs ? I don't know,but yeah you're definitely not the only one.
Essentially.
The reunion was mostly rushed, although how they immediately follow it was definitely bad.
Oh? What happened to it?
I felt like I could have used more freedom, Ep 1 had more hubs and felt more "open" if you get what I'm saying.
Other than that my little complaints are gameplay wise:
Other than what I've said I don't see many problems with the episode but a little nitpick I have is the raider's motivation to take kids: take them, train them and use them in war ? What if they choose not to fight but to run away or kill themselves ? In the time you trained these kids couldn't have you instead, I don't know... fight this war ? And how long has this war been going for anyway, if they have the time to go search for kids, train them and so on ?
I'm guessing we're gonna get more explanation for their actions but we'll see.
There were a few things that bugged me here and there.
First thing that kinda bugged me is discussing AJ's killing of Marlon and Lee is brought up as an example, stating something along the lines of, 'You said he was handcuffed. That means he wasn't a threat. It means you murdered him.'. What bugs me is that I never had Clem handcuff Lee in season 1, I had her handcuff the guard walker. Now this could be a game bug, or more likely they just retconned an action since it's what a majority of people did. Still irritates me tho.
Second one that kinda bugs me is when Violet and Clementine are discussing what happens in the woods. Violet dialogue near the beginning is something like, 'When I heard you call for help, I didn't even think.' The problem is that neither Clem nor AJ called for help. The only two loud sounds that could have drawn Louis and Violet's attention is the shotgun, and AJ's screaming as Abel was twisting AJ's arm up his back. Not a big deal, I suppose, but I do hate inconsistencies with narrative stories.
The third thing that bugs me, and it's the biggest of all of them, is James. Seriously, he has no purpose other than to deus ex machania the fact that the school was going to be attacked - which is something we can figure out for ourselves or by other more believable narrative methods. He is so out of place as a character as well. It seems to me the devs thought it would be cool to have a whisperer in the game so they just put one in, but didn't know what to do with him. So they gave him the role to be Clem's savior! Even that makes no sense, no matter how I look at it. He said he sent the herd in to rescue them? When? The kid has to be faster than Ursian Bolt if he saw Clem on the ground with AJ in Abel's hand(s). When Clem and AJ are running away from those two, they were hoofing it, and fast. So that means that James would have to be at least twice as fast to get to his herd, and send them in the direction of where they were. Now I could argue that he send in the herd during the chase... which still makes no sense. James has demonstrated his quasi-believe that walkers are people, and it was hard for him to see them die to rescue Clem. So during the chase, and the gunfire is going off, he doesn't know what's going on so he sends in his herd? He doesn't know what's going on and he's going to get some of his precious walkers killed just for curiosity sake? No matter how I try to justify it, there just isn't enough time for James to do what he said he did. He's moving at the speed of plot, and bad plot at that.
Sweet sugary biscuits, this got detailed.
Yeah, he just kinda comes out shooting regardless and barely uses that arm if he has it.
You'd think there'd at least be a walker in his reintroduction to help establish that he's trigger happy by blowing it/them apart and an exchange with Lily about what they did to him in either scenario.
I seem to recall something similar from one of the playthroughs I saw..
Yeah, I know I already found him nondescript in Episode 1, but I also found him kinda uninteresting here and his characterization didn't quite make sense aside from obviously being upset about Marlon. He just came across as idly hardassed after a point.
I'm guessing he's the character the IGN review was tangibly referring to.
I didn't quite get the point of that either. But then again, that choice is just kinda one that I wouldn't have to think too much about anyway.
Yeah, Violet is just kinda on the side for most of the episode occasionally being the character who supports Clementeen and spews venom to anyone who argues otherwise. Her becoming the new leader--even carrying Marlon's bow before this even comes up--is basically a way of making her standout as a important character.
Especially since Louis is part of the side that is taken aback by everything that happened with Marlon and goes through an arc in dealing with it throughout the episode.
I have any idea or two regarding the division amongst the school and by extension the leadership thing I intend to do something with later.
Basically, are there any scenes you felt could've gone on longer/shorter to get the most effectiveness out of them.
I know this is unorthodox, but I'm gonna go ahead and cut off here to address the rest later.
Yeah, Omar is just oddly a nonentity here, especially considering he's the only other character who's explicitly established as being Louis's friend.
I honestly thought they ended up killing him and Aasim off at first, given the fact that they just disappeared once things started getting blown up.
He's also seemingly the one character who didn't have an opinion one way or the other regarding whether Clementeen & AJ should go and just saw that everyone else wanted to come to a decision, which could've been an interesting point for his character given the odds and the above.
Eeeh, yeah, sorta. It does just kinda happen with little in the way of a [ultimately fatal] push or immediate reaction from the others besides Lily.
The thing that truly concerned me, was the fact that the last day seemed to last for only an hour.
You wake up from your nightmare -> morning
You talk to everyone -> noon
You play the card game -> evening
You go with Violet/Louis and get attacked -> night.
All that happens in 45 minutes with no timejump whatsoever.
I believe it's night time when you wake up from your nightmare.
At first I thought it was a little time skip between Clem falling asleep again and the "Check on everyone" segment and that it was placed somewhere before evening, but then I remembered that Clem tells AJ "You ready to work today kiddo ?" which indicates that it is indeed morning.
Weird.
It's even more weird If it's like you said, since the day still progresses way to fast during that segment.
The choice is kinda misleading on both ends, but I agree that what Violet says is very difference from where they actually go.
Of course, I sorta knew that going in because of the trailer and a screenshot on Telltale's Twitter.
Good point.
The plot was more or less on rails throughout most of this, leading to certain scenes being rushed as well as not taking full advantage of the climate amongst the students.
Better or worse than the jank gun controls from Around Every Corner?
If I had to guess, it's a matter of them loosing men over time and thus having corners about whether they'd be able to continue fighting without getting completely wiped out over it. And given how rough the apocalypse is, especially that far in, anyone they recruit into their ranks would technically classify as an able body that fight for their side and by extension, their own lives.
Given how long it took for Lily and Abel to round up the little retrieval party they had, it's possible they were spending that time continuing the effort as is while trying to convince their leaders to give them just enough resources to reaching the Ericson students.
It could be a bugged determinant line, but it could also just be the preferred canon.
It's not the only/first time they've done that.
Yeeeah...not sure what that's about.
Maybe she originally had the option to scream before Lily/Abel caught her in an earlier draft.
Yeah, it really does stand out just how minimal his involvement with the episode was considering he's on the promo art.
Yeah, that bothered me too.
I'd say worse, but I think why I say this is because I was actually impressed with the combat we had in 401 so when that bow scene happened I was like "Really ?".
In Season 1 a lot of things were janky (remember that jump scare in the same episode ?)
That's why I believe they are not that big of a community, at least not as big as we are led to believe. They don't seem to have many resources and people (They sent only 5 people ? Sure they thought capturing kids would be easy, but still, even kids this far into the outbreak are gonna fight you)
Ooh...that's no bueno.
Like, I noticed the control seemed to be weird on videos, but I thought that was partly due to the player not being used to the control.
The one in the shed with the damn tv? How could I?
Eh...maybe?
There's concept art out there of what I suppose is their settlement and it seems fairly big, if slightly in comparison to the Boarding School.
My point exactly.
I didn't like James, was expecting more from Lilly and Clementine dialogue options and I didn't like that I was forced to follow Violet or Louis, I was hoping there was an option to walk away by myself.
Yay! I think if you can manage, you should definitely list all of the nitpicks/problems that people had in the shortest summary possible/bullet points. And then as time goes on, however time we've got left, that list can be updated as people realise more things that they thought could've been handled differently. I agree with what everyone said, perhaps the strongest being how the fact that there isn't enough explanation to the capture a year ago. We just don't know why they didn't come back for more, I know it's a small thing that can be resolved with a simple 'our own base amongst several Delta basecamps got raided so we had a mini-war but now that's over so we're back to recruiting'. Seriously tho, Omar, Mitch and Willy shouldn't even be in this story. It's SERIOUSLY bugging me why after all this time the writers see it necessary to throw in a bunch of side characters within the main cast and their excuse is 'it's a school' yet they see no need in developing them. I know there's more to come, but if you're halfway through a story, I'm thinking, what else can they do? Pull of a Nick? (i killed my mom. Drink booze) We could've had such a tight-nit cast of kids: AJ, Clem, Tenn, Louis, Violet, Marlon, Brody, Aasim, Ruby. No Omar, Mitch or Willy. And no, Mitch isn't important because of his arc, it's somewhat similiar to Louis' which is within the same episode.
That's actually a pretty good point.
Hm...that sounds like an interesting idea for an index, if a bit busying.
Reminds me of my Foil thread.
...Uh, you rephrase/clarify that a bit? I'm kinda struggling to get the correlation, admittedly.
At the very least, Willy definitely could've had more development among the other characters and is poised to have a bigger role/arc in the next one.
It's funny you mention that considering Nick himself had little to nothing to do with the actual Cabin Group vs Carver Myth Arc.
Like I mentioned before, I think they had Mitch be that character to get more mileage out of the whole divide regarding whether AJ/Marlon was justified.
Like, sure, they could've just had Louis be far more aggressive for a Louis vs Violet subplot, but then that'd run the risk of making the Season 2 recycling even more prominent, with all the trappings that come with either.
Even if Episode 2 is better than Episode 1 imo, it sure does have flaws I cannot stand:
I feel like Lilly's return was poorly done. I know it's for the sake of dramatic effect and it's been years since they met but couldn't Lilly immediately recognize Clementine by her hat or even her voice? She had less screentime. Her motivation of kidnapping and training children for a war sounded garbage. I know she doesn't have to be like Kenny from Season 2 but her antagonism seemed pretty forced (I'm glad Kenny wasn't an antagonist as he was planned to be in Season 2).
It felt so anticlimatic, why did he try to fight Lilly without any weapons? I was just starting to forgive him for being an ass.
I have a hard time thinking he could use a long weapon like a double barrel shotgun to kill something, that's not a type of weapon for one-armed people (If you chose to attack him in Ep1). How does he even reload? Is that the same shotgun Mike from Until Dawn used? Even if you had his arm spared, some animations remain the same. Also, how did he resist so much stabbing in his body? Is he related to David from The Last of Us?
One thing I really wish would have been added is what if the choice to save Louis or Violet determined whether we got captured by the raiders or escaped and stayed at Ericson? Like Violet would always go, and Louis would always stay, but where Clementine goes depends on who you save.
Yep.
To be fair, that hat was apparently a commonplace sports hat at one point and she was just a little, soft voiced girl the last time they saw each other.
Also notice that her getting a look at her face and AJ saying her name happens at roughly the same time, meaning there really wasn't a chance for her to come to the conclusion herself.
It almost makes me wonder if, aside from the obvious question of how long this was intended to be her, she was supposed to make her actual return in the climax at one point.
That's essentially the base concept they're working off of.
Honestly, my question during that moment was "where did she even get that knife?"
I guess it's supposed to indicate that he's stronger/tough.
Does he ever?
I have no idea.
Was Mike the black guy or the white jock?
Some? He visibly doesn't use that arm 80+% of the time.
Possibly.
That could've interesting.
But then, I guess that'd determinantly get in the way of the whole leadership "subplot".
Ehhh it I don't care if the episode has flaws, I really enjoyed it and it still has potential to be on the level of S1.
I mean when raiders came to the safe zone at the time and kidnapped Minnie and Sophie. We don't know the details. Nitpick.
I mean we'd still have the leadership subplot in one version. In the other we'd get to see more of Lilly and have some of the classic "We're not so different you and I" stuff.
Well, she is a soldier, so don't any soldiers hold knives for defense and in case they run out of ammo?
He shot that double barrel shotgun twice and he was supposed to reload it since it holds 2 bullets only.
The guy who doesn't die at all until the final chapter of the game.
From what I could tell, it seemed like it might have been a random encounter that ended with Marlin letting Abel take those two but not Brody.
I was more referring to your comment about why they didn't come back.
If it were just a 'get down Brody! don't let them see you!' 'But what about the sisters?' 'I have no choice!' then the raiders wouldn't be so eeducated on Marlon. And if Marlon did reveal himself, then the raiders could've tortured him into revealing the site of the school, or taken him aswell. I can't think of anything that actually makes sense.
True. And it'd actually have a chance of working this time instead of just looking like silly tryhardness.
The Raiders plan made no sense. You're going to risk the lives of 6 soldiers to possibly obtain about 9 kids? The rewards don't outweigh the risk.
God bless everyone.