Who is to blame the most? Marlon or Minerva?
Minerva is the bitch who deserves the blame in my opinion. Sophie wanted to escape and return to the group but no, Minerva killed her in cold blood just to show loyalty to a bunch of criminals who are torturing people and forcing them into war. If she cared about her former group and her little brother, she could have easily sided with Clem and the others to save the imprisoned ones but no, she decided to be against them and bring them to a dangerous place to live. She has to die. Anyone who kills their own family is not to be trusted and be given a second chance.
Marlon at least had good reasons, he wanted to be redeemed. He had a lot of tough decisions.
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I suppose Marlon for putting them in that situation in the first place.
I blame Marlon because he got Minerva manipulated or brainwashed resulting in Sophia getting killed.
Marlon didn't really have too much of a choice. I blame him for not telling the group about it. He was never bad. Just too scared and too frightened to do anything.
Minerva decided that she prefers living with them and she betrayed everyone she cared about. Brainwashing my ass. If she was loyal then she would never get brainwashed. But that's the thing. Some people want soft life rather than show loyality to the people that love them.
That's why Minerva and Violet will always be the negative characters in this story in my opinion. Betraying people they "care" about seems to be really easy for them.
I see Minerva as a victim, so Marlon.
And Brody. She was there too and just as responsible as Marlon. Weird that everybody seems to forgive her.
Brody was more of a "wrong place, wrong time" situation, to be fair. She only knew because she unexpectedly swapped places with Violet that day, who was supposed to go along to possibly be traded as well.
The implication seems to be that Marlon may have kept her out of it and then basically pressured her into keeping quiet when he realized she saw the deal play out. And even if his threats weren't enough to keep he quiet, the realization that telling the others would break the group apart did. Thus, it was easier to go along with Marlon's claim that the twins had been killed by walkers outside the perimeter.
So I'd say it's not about forgiving her for her part so much as understanding her unenviable perspective.
You're sort of contradicting yourself. You reject Minnie and Vi for betraying the people they care about, not showing loyalty, but give Marlon the benefit of the doubt by saying he didn't have much choice. You can't have it both ways. Marlon betrayed Sophie and Minnie that day. You and I know he was in a frightening position, but fact of the matter is he betrayed them and by extension, betrayed everyone he loved by hiding the truth. The fear for his life and the situation led him to do that.
All 3 are victims of their own fear. If you give Marlon the benefit of the doubt, then Minnie and Violet deserve that same benefit. But if your stance is to reject those 2, then Marlon deserves that same energy.
Not really. It's a lot different. Marlon didn't have a choice. He couldn't have said "No, we won't give them to you, thanks for askin anyway". He wanted to fix things, he felt bad about it.
Minerva on the other hand decided to work for the bad guys and help them hurt people she loved. She had plenty of possibilities for redemption. She had information, she had chances, she could help them plenty of times. She didn't do shit. She just kept lying to them.
All 3 are traitors, yet Marlon is surely on a different spot.
Again, you're contradicting yourself.
He was given the same ultimatum Minnie and Violet were given after him: Cooperate or die or probably even worse (Louis).
He chose to cooperate instead of die. Minnie chose to cooperate instead of die. Violet chose to cooperate instead of die.
And what did Marlon do? This is what I'm talking about. Marlon kept lying to them, wanted to keep the truth hidden so bad he killed Brody in his fit of rage and doubled down on said lies. It was only until he was backed as far to the corner as he could possibly be did he confess to the truth.
I will give you this. Minerva could have helped us escape off the boat. Why didn't she? Because she herself could not escape from Lilly. From her one experience, escape only leads to death so she's convinced herself into thinking the only way to survive is to stay in line. You're probably thinking that that's just a very pretty way of saying "betrayal", but so is your defense of Marlon, which is exactly my point. Betrayal is betrayal.
There isn't any notable difference big enough to put him on a different plane from them. Especially since it all started with his decision to give them away. He didn't want things to come to that? None of them did. The only literal difference is that he came clean and gave up, but only when all other options were exhausted.
Like I said, you can either choose to give all 3 the benefit of the doubt due to their feelings on the matter or reject all 3 as simple betrayal. But one situation isn't better off than the other because they all come from the same place. Fear of what could happen to them or others if they refuse to comply with Lilly's demands. And that fear is justified, at least to me, which is why I give them all the benefit of the doubt.
Except for the fact that Minerva had like tons of possibilties to escape. Just look at her scene in the woods from Ep.3. She went there alone. If she really have cared about them then she would run the first chance she can. She didn't. I just don't see her case being similar to Marlon. All I know is that Marlon wanted the best for the group, but he screwed up completely. Minerva quickly changed sides and she felt quite comfortable there. And I don't think that Minerva's "hey, come on. Let's be slaves of those bastards, go fight their war and die for their sake! C'mon! It's a better option" is the same thing.
That's why I think that - even though they both are traitors - Marlon still is not on the same spot. But of course I rescpet your opinion, you made some solid points.
They share the blame equally. They both had a chance to do right by the group and they failed. Marlon - lying to the group and killing Brody. Minerva - for taking you prisoner when she had the chance to let you go.
Nevermind giving up the twins to Abel in the first place, apparently.
The question posed is difficult to give a straight answer to. We don't have all the information to be quite that impartial. Naturally speaking, the majority will likely choose Marlon as the primary person to blame and will see Minerva as a victim.
To be objective we would need to know how the deal was struck that day that Sophie, Minerva, Brody, and Marlon encountered Delta ( at minimum Able ) in the forest.
For this portion at least, we have a mild suggestion that they were threatened in order to obtain 2 of their group. How can we assume that? Brody is terrified of the appearance of Able's cigarette rolls to the point of a breakdown. Guilt wouldn't trigger that kind of response. Fear triggers that kind of response. That's also how we can confirm that Able ( again at minimum ) was there to threaten the group at their first encounter. This is the same man who had no trouble torturing AJ in front of Clementine and filling him full of buckshot.
What good would it have done Marlon to not accept the deal and 4 of them not return instead of 2? Or if in resisting, one or more of them were to die, and the school full of unprepared children are raided by armed adults? None. None at all. It might be difficult to accept, but in that moment he made the right call.
So where did he make the wrong call, and what blame can we assign to him for it? Well, he could've gone with Delta himself. This would be a brave, and self-sacrificing leadership choice without question, however he also appears to be one of the main providers of the group. Technically, with what we know when we arrive, Marlon and Brody are two of a handful of key people who manage to keep the group alive and fed. So would the group suffer more for the loss of Marlon and Brody or Minnie and Sophie? Hard as it is to possibly accept, he still made the right call.
Where he made the wrong call is where he didn't tell the others what happened, and abandoned his thoughts of launching a rescue for the twins. Yes, it's unlikely they could've actually made this happen. Even with Clementine staging the resistance, children were injured and killed. But the group could've made an informed choice of where to proceed, and if it were even worth staying near the area. He did attempt to avoid encountering them again by decreasing the perimeter of the safe zone. He never meant to kill Brody. He didn't murder her to keep her quiet. It was his attempt to shut her up that killed her.
Where did Minerva cross the line? She didn't tell her sister that she'd rather stay in Delta. She went along with the escape, killed her, then returned. She's also perfectly alright with those that provide and protect her little brother being captured and leaving him to starve or die by walkers. We don't even know if during the deal that Sophie and Minnie might've volunteered to go to protect the school.
From my perspective, Minerva would be mostly to blame situation. The twins could have returned, gathered the school, and left.
Actually, the implication is that they both got caught escaping and Lilith gave Minnie a choice: either she proves her loyalty to the Delta by killing Sophie(who had always been more resistant) or they'd both be punished. When she made the former choice, she effectively got rid of the one thing that encouraged her to defy the Deltas, both figuratively and literally. At which point, her only concern was that Tenn be kept safe.
There are some theories that suggest that is the case, and a couple that suggest that Minnie changed her mind during the escape itself. I've heard it suggested by another friend that played that Minnie might've gone along with it knowing that even if she stayed, she wouldn't be trusted because her sister escaped and didn't say anything, and that's why she went along to prove herself.
Regardless, if the choice is killing the twin sister or both facing punishment it seems odd the choice would be to kill her. I suppose it could be argued that like in Marlon's case we're missing huge chunks of this narrative. About the only way it might absolve her of Sophie's death is if the punishment was worse than death. Then it'd be more of a mercy kill.
Doesn't give Minerva to kill her sister
Clementine: A real leader would've sacrificed himself.
What about that?
Well while those theories might be there, I'm simply going by what we're told by Lilith.
Pretty much par.
Wanna rework your grammar there, pal?
My point was that you left it off when it's the beginning.
I can believe Minerva's brainwashing a hell of a lot more than Violet's though, because Minerva was broken down for months, if not years (what is the timeline anyway on when Tenn's sisters disappeared?).
Violet was put in a cell for a couple of days at best, but then she does a complete 180 which makes her change feel lot less excusable.
When Lily told her story of the twins, she did say "they were taken away from their friends and family and that was sad at first. They shed a lot of tears".
Also, you do realize Minerva was most likely forced to kill her sister, right? It's not explicitly said but it's implied.
Minerva: Lay down, stay in line, or you die! The people you love, die!
Pretty much.
The Delta are totes scary, mon.
I think that Marlon was unstable emotionally and too unexperienced to be a leader in the first place. Yet he was, because someone had to be.
It's one year buddy. Tenn said it to Clem after Louis and Violet left the table unhappy, that it has been a year since Minerva and Sophie "died".
Actually - she was there for like less than 24 hours.
She wasn't forced for sure. She had a choice. Sophie would never kill Minerva if it was other way around. Minerva just picked easier path in her life. Just like Violet did. The thing is - easy path is not the right path. Sometimes it's better to die than to do something you will regret for the rest of your life.
I think what screwed Marlon over is the fact that he lied about what happened, but in politics, sometimes there is a thing called a "Noble Lie" to keep the peace. It was most likely the safest option too, as Minerva pointed out that giving the twins away kept everyone alive (temporarily). "Yeah, and we all survived it" and that.
Also, thanks for that tidbit. I remember Tenn saying "they get like this every year" or "this is the one year anniversary of my sisters dying" now, even though it's fuzzy. These episodes don't have a lot of replay value for me so I don't retain as many facts.
And really? That was all in the span of a single day? I guess since so much happened in one day (questioning Abel, planning to invade the boat, running into Minnie, talking to James, having the party, the dream sequence with Lee, etc) it felt like several, and the way Violet talks, I gave it a grace period of a couple days too.
Now it makes her speech about the whole thing being "pointless" and how she's given in to all despair sounds laughable.
Well, no, I guess she wasn't literally forced. I guess she had a choice. Maybe it was kill her or you both get killed? And she chose to live on the side of her oppressors. Fucked up for sure, and a tragedy as well.
I said they're both to blame. So what is your point? They both did some pretty shitty things when they didn't have to.
I know.
I made my point.
Telltale Games.
Eh, I suppose you're not halfwrong.