it's not that Abby is heartless insomuch as she believes she's acting in a quid-pro-quo manner: for her, Ellie is a monster for murdering one pregnant woman and then begging that a second be spared only because the second is a friend. Abby has no idea that Ellie didn't mean for Mel's death to happen.
it's not that Abby is heartless insomuch as she believes she's acting in a quid-pro-quo manner: for her, Ellie is a monster for murdering on… moree pregnant woman and then begging that a second be spared only because the second is a friend. Abby has no idea that Ellie didn't mean for Mel's death to happen.
Except Ellie killed Abby's friends in self-defense. She killed Jordan to save Dina and she killed Owen and Mel because they proceeded to attack her.
Nora is the only one Ellie killed intentionally. But it seemed more like a mercy kill because she was dying via the spores and Ellie could have just let her suffer.
Except Ellie killed Abby's friends in self-defense. She killed Jordan to save Dina and she killed Owen and Mel because they proceeded to att… moreack her.
Nora is the only one Ellie killed intentionally. But it seemed more like a mercy kill because she was dying via the spores and Ellie could have just let her suffer.
And you could say that she was killed because Ellie had no choice but to put her life at risk from her life being in danger. Luckily she doesn't do that to her friends.
Except Ellie killed Abby's friends in self-defense. She killed Jordan to save Dina and she killed Owen and Mel because they proceeded to att… moreack her.
Nora is the only one Ellie killed intentionally. But it seemed more like a mercy kill because she was dying via the spores and Ellie could have just let her suffer.
But you tried to excuse it as a mercy kill, which it was not. She hot her killed when she pushed her into the spores and then tortured her to death. None of that was mercy.
But I don’t wanna go on another tangent here. The point is Ellie also didn’t ask any questions before embarking on a revenge quest, killing numerous WLF and scars who had nothing to do with what happened with Joel, so you’re not holding both her and Abby to the same standard.
The point of the story is likely that revenge is bad and pursuing it fecklessly will get a lot of people hurt, including the ones closest to you.
I initially thought this too but now (thanks to the prespective of some users on here and rewatching some key moments on youtube) I think it actually runs deeper than that! Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her revenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out). Killing Joel didn't fix her, becoming a better person did.
And maybe that gives us the answer of what happens at the end: Ellie is drowning Abby, she basically got what she wanted, 3 more seconds and it's done but... Joel appears, he is still there, haunting her. In that moment Ellie realizes Abby being alive was never what was eating away at her and that it wouldn't serve as a solution.
The real problem is that she never got to forgive Joel (as Poogers pointed out). To let him go she needed to realize that it wasn't about how she felt about Abby, but how she felt about herself and how she left things with him.
Now, "ReVeNgE bAd" is still very much an important and recurring theme, sure, but I believe it wasn't the main point the game was trying to make. Instead it's something more like "revenge probably won't fix your grief over the loss of your loved ones, fixing yourself will".
The point of the story is likely that revenge is bad and pursuing it fecklessly will get a lot of people hurt, including the ones closest to you.
I still haven't given it a look outside the vague spoilers, but that seemed pretty clear.
I don't care who is gonna win GOTY 2020 but the only thing I can hope for is this game losing to its competitors. It might win best art direction and all which would be totally fine but doesn't deserve GOTY in any way.
I don't care who is gonna win GOTY 2020 but the only thing I can hope for is this game losing to its competitors. It might win best art direction and all which would be totally fine but doesn't deserve GOTY in any way.
Got through a good chunk of the story over the course of the evening(and some late afternoon) and think I might as well give some initial thoughts
(Spoiler for conformity)
I can see where the criticism of the game being a bit boring comes from. I was honestly pretty disinterested until Dina's introduction.
Of the cast thus far, I think Dina and to an extent [Asian esque guy who the internet might call simp] are the closest to being characters I feel any positivity for. There's a couple of reasons for that, but in this case, they're the only characters who are enjoyable or sympathetic(urgh). For the most part: it's not so subtly confirmed from the old dancing cutscene-trailer not in the game that she likes to flirt and even sleep around, which the second to last scene before I stopped confirmed to a fridged yikes...!
To address the cast as a whole though, what the hell has happened? Dina is the character to keep me engaged for much of the run because she's actually around to bring some consistent life to the screen. [Chill guy]? Disappears after getting cucked. Joel? We'll get to him. Tommy? Basically ten steps ahead after things get going. Abby? Later. [Abby's leader]? Thought he randomly turned ruthless too before noticing the subtitles. I mean went from a community of about twenty plus a group of seven to two lesbians on a horse and the occasional gang member at turf war? I remember the first game was 50% Joel and Ellie, but where is everyone and why are they such dead air?
Let's talk about Abby. Plot aside for a second, seeing that it was Laura Bailey yesterday was interesting, as I might not have been able to tell since she mainly sounds like a Deep Southern Ellie. And I know Joel isn't that tall a man realistically, but it's still striking to see her outdo him physically and the blonde braided ponytail was amusing to actually see in-game(even if it telegraphs the Shadow Archetype angle more). The giveaway opinions on her made it to fill in the already partially done blanks, so I knew she'd become the main antagonist and have a pretty good idea what her motivation was(heh...). So at first, I was thrown off but intrigued to see how Abby was interested in the move to have her be introduced as a playable character before she assumes that role and the interaction with [her leader] was good way to not only play on the hypothetical audience's ignorance by emulating a similar relationship to our other PCs(erm), but also hint at some distrust that sets up whatever's going on with her. But oh my goodness, that leaves the room shockingly fast and has remained that way for most of this, contributing to the feeling of not only meh pacing, but questionable storytelling in general.
So hitting the "big" point that was predictable as all get out, Joel gets it in the beginning. So maybe I was fooled by that old teaser after ANF plus one commercial on Toonami, but I didn't think it would happen this early and/or would've assumed that he'd be on the revenge quest before Ellie's refusal to let go causes him to meet his fate; in the lead up to that, I would've thought we'd have another Ellie&David segment of the story that would eventually pay off with it as well, given the "shouldn't have given their names talk I glimpsed earlier." Talking about his characterization though, wasn't Joel a grizzled distrustful butterstick and a bit of a selfish cynic?
To hammer in my point about agreeing with Pat on this story though, the fact that it's practically Tess's original role as the MAIN Direction really does keep me from investing. I realize it could partly be because I once again didn't play through the first game, but I honestly don't care for Joel--the first game was basically "The Ellie Game" to me in part due of that. I generally avoid thinking that way in the past, but I'd be lying if I felt anything about his at least dignified death and while he does come across better in a few scenes here, it doesn't register as anything beyond a tad strange. That said, and I just thought of this in the next point, why wasn't there a mourning/burial sequence for what was the previous protagonist?
I feel like Tommy, [Mr Stole my girl,] and to a lesser extent Maria and even Biggot-Sandwich-tender could've been in this more? I kinda forgot Maria was in the first game, but her vibe as a firm voice for right could've been used a bit more as a mother figure for Ellie and was an appropriate consoler for when her Brother in Law was lost in the blizzard. Tommy despite seeming cool is so majorly intangible as a character right now--he's Joel's older brother who we learn had quite a violent history of his own causing him to leave a trail of carnage for Ellie&Dina to follow, but at this point it's been a bit since they seemed close to him and I'm just wondering if he's got reverse rubber band AI leading him to his own death at this point. And finally, I really do feel for Abby's ex-boyfriend, as he's responsible and a certain limit of understanding while seemingly existing to get Mako'd and then is just gone before he can among others can react to Joel's death. While it might've caused some drama and detracted from the peculiarly minimal romance of the trip, he could've went along to try to keep them somewhat in line but it's pretty much impossible since they'd have traveled about a state away.
Quick Question: who is Leah? I realize I might've looked down or checked out for a bit, but the next thing I knew, they find a photo in the back of a Wolf truck or something and say "That's her." When the hell did they see her and why would they be after her and not Abby at that point in their trek? And in regards to the WLF in general, once they find her arrowed body in her hotel room with a walkie talkie suggesting she's high profile, Ellie says fuck her and upon finally picking out Abby among her collection of photos, they outright say they got three of them already. Was this the Asian dude that vouched for not killing Ellie upon recognizing her & then deciding to choke out Dina for some reason? And the dude Tommy tortured alongside some other rando, right?
Getting to the black heart of this series, I do not like what Ellie is, I have to say. I realize she might not have been the most amazing character in Part 1 and that is a story about vengeful emptiness, but she is just so prone to aggression and dismissiveness from nearly the word go present day. She's also so dead, as my feelings about Dina shows, which the somewhat corny flashbacks with Rosé glasses really hammers home. Abby suddenly leaving the plot after her Joel In One really doesn't do her any favors, as the game gave us a taste of the only other perspective for the conflict before taking all but the vaguely greasy plate away.
Finally, let's talk about the flashbacks, as the game starts with one and the last scene I watched was a suddenly extensive second one. They're are there to provide down good vibes for the previous main characters and levity to the otherwise bloody meandering plot, which was actually kinda needed with the latter. All that is to say, they have a bit of a tone problem: these seem to go out of their way to slightly overidealize Kenn-- I mean Joel into this deadpan, yet jovial and warm man who did nice things for the girl he didn't even want to smuggle. The second one that I ended my stretch with is basically a 30 minutes tangent about Jurassic Park with a bizarre astronaut fade at the end, which was needly enjoyable in places but also a testament to how this story has terrible motion. And the first sets up what very much appears to be a thematic device, with Joel playing a guitar while singing "If I were to lose you, I'd lose part of myself," that is foreboding af and it doesn't help that Ellie doing it again in the theater coincides with fridge horror per the exchange Aron posted earlier.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand The Last of Us Part II.
If you are smart enough to beat the game, you are smart enough to understand the story. It's honestly not that confusing to me, the story seems sort of clear.
Did...did you think I was being serious?
Bro, it's the Rick and Morty copypasta. Lol.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty
The point of the story is likely that revenge is bad and pursuing it fecklessly will get a lot of people hurt, including the ones closest to you.
I still haven't given it a look outside the vague spoilers, but that seemed pretty clear.
Isn't Tommy Joel's younger brother? And Leah is Jordan's girlfriend, the only truly innocent one who was shocked by Abby's swings, didn't carry a weapon, and dies to Scars. Only one to not die from revenge I think.
Got through a good chunk of the story over the course of the evening(and some late afternoon) and think I might as well give some initial thoughts
(Spoiler for conformity)
(Spoiler)
Overall, not looking good in many ways.
Oh yeah. I couldn't help but get that mixed up since they've portrayed Tommy as more dutiful and experienced.
Jordan wasn't the leader, was he? Cause I know he got a girl named Mel pregnant(an inadvertent red herring, I'm sure). Idk, there were up to nine of those guys and the lack of introduction meant I can only recall five of them by sight.
It means a lot of things. Cheap answer but really it's whatever you take away from it, that's what matters.
Admittedly, I still hadn't hopped in just yet. Woody reminded me of the emptiness aspect, which I can kinda feel in places.
Isn't Tommy Joel's younger brother? And Leah is Jordan's girlfriend, the only truly innocent one who was shocked by Abby's swings, didn't carry a weapon, and dies to Scars. Only one to not die from revenge I think.
This video just proves how Naughty Dog thought we would fall for this bullshit. I even pointed that out in my playthrough video. Talk about whitewashing.
Seems to me like it's just a generic character model they dressed up in swabs and put a mask on. When they went to remake this scene in the second game, I think they remodeled everything, including the head surgeon to look like whoever got cast as Jerry. I don't think it's intentional "whitewashing" since this surgeon was just some random NPC dude, when it came to remake him I'm sure they decided to model it off of the actor (though that surprises me in why not re-hire the same VA from the first game for detail-accuracy, but I doubt this character had a named cast slot -- like Firefly Doctor: John Smith -- he was just one of the many additional voices made to read tons of enemy and NPC lines for the game)
But yeah clearly they didn't have a sequel planned or intended when the first game came out.
This video just proves how Naughty Dog thought we would fall for this bullshit. I even pointed that out in my playthrough video. Talk about whitewashing.
Wow, this game looks rougher lately. Interesting detail with the scars on his head though.
That honestly gives the impression that they changed his race(if they actively did and didn't just forget) to avoid having one of the only black characters in the sequel thus far(that I can tell) be mercilessly slaughtered by Joel.
Oh, just to give a quick correction for those who read my early thoughts, I honestly got Abby and Dina's names mixed up at points. This is why I said Abby is one of the only characters I kinda like, then go on to say Dina is carrying parts of the game in a following point; I also forgot to activate the usual bullet point format.
This video just proves how Naughty Dog thought we would fall for this bullshit. I even pointed that out in my playthrough video. Talk about whitewashing.
(though that surprises me in why not re-hire the same VA from the first game for detail-accuracy, but I doubt this character had a named cast slot -- like Firefly Doctor: John Smith -- he was just one of the many additional voices made to read tons of enemy and NPC lines for the game)
Is it a different VA? I thought they sounded the same. Speaking of the NPC's name, in the description, the youtuber said that the name for that doctor NPC model in the first game is Bruce.
Seems to me like it's just a generic character model they dressed up in swabs and put a mask on. When they went to remake this scene in the … moresecond game, I think they remodeled everything, including the head surgeon to look like whoever got cast as Jerry. I don't think it's intentional "whitewashing" since this surgeon was just some random NPC dude, when it came to remake him I'm sure they decided to model it off of the actor (though that surprises me in why not re-hire the same VA from the first game for detail-accuracy, but I doubt this character had a named cast slot -- like Firefly Doctor: John Smith -- he was just one of the many additional voices made to read tons of enemy and NPC lines for the game)
But yeah clearly they didn't have a sequel planned or intended when the first game came out.
Oh yeah. I couldn't help but get that mixed up since they've portrayed Tommy as more dutiful and experienced.
Jordan wasn't the leader, w… moreas he? Cause I know he got a girl named Mel pregnant(an inadvertent red herring, I'm sure). Idk, there were up to nine of those guys and the lack of introduction meant I can only recall five of them by sight.
It means a lot of things. Cheap answer but really it's whatever you take away from it, that's what matters.
Admittedly, I still hadn't hopped in just yet. Woody reminded me of the emptiness aspect, which I can kinda feel in places.
Just generic hunter character model, proves that when Neil made the endnig he didn't think "hey, what if this guy's daughter is prominent in the sequel?". But it's not whitewashing, Tommy looks very different too. Lighting was jank in that game, and the environments and characters had a very green and brown dirty look to them.
This video just proves how Naughty Dog thought we would fall for this bullshit. I even pointed that out in my playthrough video. Talk about whitewashing.
I don't buy it, because Neil said the original ending would be Ellie picking up JJ's toy, indicating she would head back to Jackson. But they scrapped it so the third game could have more ideas. Of course she wouldn't call out Dina's name, she knew that would be the case. No-one thinks this and people are now "figuring it out" and I don't know what Naughty Dog's reasoning is to make it so hidden. An interpretation for sure, but not one that I buy into.
Tommy looks very different too. Lighting was jank in that game, and the environments and characters had a very green and brown dirty look to them.
Now that you mention it, I definitely remember a lot of NPC models having a dirty, greasy, tan look to them. In fact I'm sure I remember seeing this surgeon face model as one of the character models for the Multiplayer (randomly selected player models at the start of every match)
Looking back at what ND tried to push with the first game compared to their tech and quality of this game, it can be pretty hilarious, like how Ellie being so comically tiny compared to the BIG Joel-sized table on PS3, whereas in the remade cutscene the operating table is as big as her -- as it should be.
Just generic hunter character model, proves that when Neil made the endnig he didn't think "hey, what if this guy's daughter is prominent in… more the sequel?". But it's not whitewashing, Tommy looks very different too. Lighting was jank in that game, and the environments and characters had a very green and brown dirty look to them.
I truly believe Ellie did have a happy ending, and that we just missed the clues.
Yes, while the ending is symbolic. The ending is in no way, a "happy" ending for Ellie's character. Her father figure gets brutally killed, she has to live with the fact that all of the people she killed were for nothing, and she is living with her worst fear... Being alone. I do not get why people say this is a happy ending, it really isn't.
I think its more likely doing the whole "my significant other doesn't approve my actions so I take off my wedding ring while Im doing said action" type of deal.
So I've been taking a break for a few hours in time for a different sort of flashback and think I'll debrief a bit before continuing.
Funny how some of the things I complained about got addressed pretty quick: they pinpoint Tommy's next location, Jesse returns ala Luke at Howes, Abby was actually the focus of their objective now, the flashbacks have some actual meaning/relevance, and generally stuff was actually happening.
So with Dina pregnant and sick, Ellie strikes out on her own for a bit in search of Nora, who I think was the girl I kinda felt bad for--is she the one who was ordered to bandage Joel's leg? Regardless, I was engaged by the fact that even she seemed to resent Joel enough to say so at gunpoint, the implication that she was in a position to gonna have to report something Abby did(more on that latter), the extended runaround she gives Ellie which was exciting as it was a bit hilarious, her realization of Ellie's identity once both were breathing spores, and even her maintained [on-screen] resolve when she was at the end of her rope(trailer shot). Although I have two questions, one of which I'll ask here: how exactly did she break and tell Ellie when to find Owen if she was starting to gurgle the last time we see her?
The Seraphites aka Scars made quite an impression in the three sections we see them. Funny how a group of cultists wielding axes and...whatever the hell they were throwing is at war with the normal military esque WLFs, but distinguished nonetheless. I almost thought that fat bald guy was a boss, but then Ellie could chop him down within ten seconds with an axe of her own. I'm assuming they're the ones who painted that lady on a wall and carved the little doll from before? Wonder what that's about.
Kinda forgot Stalkers were a thing since they didn't stick out much aside from the body horror, but low and behold a trio of them lock eyes with Ellie and...run away, which she helpfully explains. Are they what evolve into Clickers or what?
I'm gonna say that the flashbacks, while much better in relevance this time, as a whole fell badly placed thus far--we went from having two(counting the intro as a flashback, btw) book end my previous impression to having one every two or three major sections. Take the one about the teens for instance--I like that this one (overall) has more appropriate emotion worked in, but this really should've been somewhere between Ellie telling Dina she got bit and their arrival at the movie theater. I realize that's still a big gap, but that goes to show how weird the pacing is--put that friggin "Big ol Boy" sidetrack somewhere near the start of their journey since these flashbacks seem to be sweltering in accordance to the mood and we'll be probably be solving two problems.
To talk about Ellie for a bit before I wrap up, she's gotten better as she gets worse. Thanks in part to the flashbacks, she has a bit more of the wit that she's mostly lacked since the previous game: her remarking that she was wondering if Bloaters were in Seattle was a well placed example. That said, she continues to be brusquely hardheaded, reckless, and even unspokenly selfish. She fucks up her own mission at the end of the stretch there because she can't her head on straight just short of being able to save her life and kills key people she didn't need to before they can give her the information. That's the problem with characters like this and its all by design considering what this is about.
Moving onto a positive, boy was it good to see I talked up Jesse and to an extent Tommy. The former's clear head and even temper was just what was needed to stabilize things a bit, with him quietly picking up on Ellie's rude tunnel vision since he knows her and opting to assure her he'll be fine as he does the sensible thing of meeting with Tommy. And his reserved good-humored helped bring some reasonable levity in getting Ellie to ease up a smidge to her normal dryness, which that the conversations in the scavenging had a bit more life to them than Dina leveling out after they left the synagogue. It was also nice to briefly hear his perspective on Joel, the mission, and his realization that Dina is pregnant. Unfortunately, this bit of goodness wasn't to last...
Gotta give some conditional credit for the Ferris Wheel area. It's not there for all that long compared to other locations, but I gotta say I was surprised at how the rain storm combined with approaching from the darkened sea give a neat noisy yet empty atmosphere. For better or worse.
Since I guess I can't save it for last, can we address Owen and Mel--specifically, how weak it is that they get murdered when they do? Now the issue isn't that they're ultimately confronted together, but that these are characters we knew to be major or even main players since the first parts of the game. Not gonna lie, was patiently waiting on more of them which I chose not to mention before and Owen seemed like he'd be intriguing overall, but fuck. And do I even need to say how this being Mel's introduction and sendoff is just bad?
Let's talk about the WLF(wolf?) as we wrap up, since they're our main antagonists. The flashback where Joel tells the truth has a member mention that she's trying to decide which of the two divisions of the Fireflies she'll be joining--if the WLF is one half, does that make the Seraphites the other half(since I recall a soldier dreading of being surrounded if they don't join the recall soon) or is there another group that has yet to be introduced? Also, I characteristically took a quick peak or two at TV Tropes at one point, which alongside a house Ellie chooses to scavenge in and the lead in to confronting Nora sets this Isaac leader to evidently be a piece of work even in this story.
Finally, let's hit on the cutoff point since it'll allow me to once again criticize the focal point of this story: Abby. So thanks in part to looting the photos from Leah, Ellie now has her sights set on Abby and even claims she'll let her comrades live if they help her find her--they don't believe her and I kinda don't either(hi PSP girl), but whatever. Now she had her goalpost that she was ironically heading straight for...which ends up zeroing in on her just after she makes enough fuckups to agree to turn back. Again, where the hell is she for most of this story and now what was going on for Nora to have to report yet decline to give away her position until her final words(for some reason); pfft, how the hell did she not only find Ellie so fast, but also get into the theater if it's barred with a metallic chair? I did see that the next scene is backstory for her(how old is she ?), so I can only assume they were going for a "Who is that mysterious butch?" thing, but maybe I'd actually be with that if the story didn't basically forget about her for so long. Oh, also she seemingly kills Jesse and disables Tommy before succinctly telling Ellie how much of stupid waste she is, so mixed signals there guys.
It's been better than it was before, but then it bottlenecked at a particular set of developments...and I pretty much know what's after next.
I just finished the game and I'd personally give it a good 6/10. The gameplay, presentation, and performances are all fantastic. The story is what really drags it down though. It was pretty messy and made quite a few really bizarre decisions that I don't think really worked to its benefit. But in the end, I don't think it's the disaster that the internet hypes it up as. Worst Naughty Dog game? Maybe. Worst game ever made, though? Definitely not. I've played WAY worse games than this. Get outta here with that shit.
Again, where the hell is she for most of this story
how the hell did she not only find Ellie so fast, but also get into the theater if it's barred with a metallic chair?
maybe I'd actually be with that if the story didn't basically forget about her for so long.
All will be revealed in time, Dabig. And the story really hasn't forgotten about her, and won't forget about her for the foreseeable future.
Though I'm sure once you've finished that recent flashback you'll realise what the story's new trajectory is. Abby's just hasn't been as relevant to Ellie's revenge quest apart from an end goal. She's got her own problems she's dealing with.
So I've been taking a break for a few hours in time for a different sort of flashback and think I'll debrief a bit before continuing.
(Sp… moreoiler)
It's been better than it was before, but then it bottlenecked at a particular set of developments...and I pretty much know what's after next.
Okay, did a little bit more before checking out for the night
So we have a flashback of Abby from...4 years ago I think it said? This is the start of what seems to be an entire section dedicated to exploring her character--brace yourself. I am gonna maintain that these flashbacks probably could've been better placed, cause can anybody say plot dump? At the very least, the one with Owen could've been placed in the earlier parts of the game since it connects to nothing beyond Joel still on her mind.
The first flashback takes place...4 years ago, where Abby goes into what appears to be an old zoo area looking for her dad, who in turn is tracking pregnant Zebra they ended up having to free from some wire before Owen comes to get him about a girl arriving in the tunnels(!). I quite like what we see of Jerry, as rushed as it is: he's a fun but intelligent man who plays hooky due to his love of natural life as well as to create teachable moments for Abby and even seems to approve of signs that her and Owen like each other. Despite or rather because that, we also see that he is a dedicated man when it comes to doing his job in what was to be the fateful conversation with Marlene, using scientific terms to disassociate the matter and do what he can to convince her that they have to do what they need to to save humanity, but then having to steady his own breath once she leaves the room even with Abby approving her choice of the hypothetical question he earnestly couldn't answer the same way.
We learn that Abby killed Joel because, surprise surprise, her dad was the head doctor he killed to get Ellie back--not only that, but he was the only doctor left capable of making a cure. So despite the possibility of finding more immune patients, the Fireflies entire mission was a effectively lost cause and so they disbanded into separate groups. This domino effect is what motivated her, Owen, and much of their group(the Seattle 6?) to track him down and give him what they feel he deserves, with Abby doing the honors because of how personal the matter is. We briefly cut back to the moment in question from her perspective, btw, which in conjunction with the first few seconds we saw of her implies she's had her own deep-rooted issues further pushing her to for this.
We then cut to her group's whereabouts weeks after Joel's death, where they are in some compound getting lunch before deploying on a mission. She goes along with a ladies man named Manny Alvarez as well as Mel, who is a visibly present medic who still accompanies the two and their K9 when they ambushed by the Scars and have to walk to their destination. Mel and another soldier getting wounded in the fight causes them to go meet with Nora in the medical ward, who alongside their leader Isaac informs them that Danny died about allegedly being betrayed by Owen protecting a Seraphite. This section was... interesting, as it's basically a day in the life of our villains during what assumed was concurrent with Ellie and Dina arriving at the wall. Manny was sort of a fun guy for what teasing he has with Abby and Villains episodes like this do generally give off a vibe of how down to earth your antagonists can be when they are not being formidable threats.
I guess if I'm gonna continue addressing our new main character for however long this is gonna go for(this is a halfway point, holy fuck), Abby is alright I guess. She kinda has this weird mish-mashy parallel with her dad, Owen, and even Mel/Manny that is reminiscent to peculiar extents with Ellie's relationships with Joel, Dina, and even Jesse--no mixed messages there, I assure you. As if I couldn't tell the moment we saw her, she's clearly meant to be a reflection of Ellie except hard from revengeance and stuff. For real though, she's not that interesting or enjoyable in her own right, so I stand by my point on possibly treating her like an enigma.
I'm struggling to be glad we got some actual development of Mel since...well you know. So she's a knocked up combat medic and thus Joel's execution doesn't sit right with her(more on that in general actually) even though she's Blue Diamond about him; I think she was the one who felt conflicted about him in the moment rather than Nora btw, who was also nice to see again. I'm not sure why she went on the mission other than maybe having something to prove, but hey at least she was there.
Owen is...cool? I mean he's kinda fun and teasing and stuff, but idk, I guess I expected something more to him than "Dreamy White Boyfriend" or I guess Luke on sugar. There is still clearly more going on with him present day with him starting a family with Mel despite his history with Abby , his disagreements with both in the present, and the notion that he betrayed Danny for a Seraphite, but thought there'd be more in general.
We are introduced to the leader of WLF, Isaac--who I was surprised to see is black, for some reason. Gonna give it to this guy that he seems so tired yet a tad foreboding despite most of what we see of him: he's an old man with white hair rimming his head(like a long faced Steven), he had this very slight sashay(is that the word?) to his walk that I thought I was seeing things at first, he talks a bit sluggishly yet sternly, immediately pinpoints Nora's part when Abby tried being discreet, sits on his desk eating an apple while calmly discussing Owen being a traitor, and he's so slightly taller than even Abby without being a tower. There's also we heard he gave Nora "that fucking look" when she tried to ask more about Danny and the very slight discomfort in Abby's face when he puts his hand on her biceps in a fatherly manner as he says he needs her for the big move; oh and his introduction in the shadows of a room where he was interrogating a Scar he tells his guard to not let fall asleep as he gets up. This guy is understatedly creepy and likely planning no good even as he promises to give Owen the benefit of the doubt.
I'm engaged by these recent back to back detours and I can't tell if that's a good thing. Probably cause it's not.
They're probably going to save Dina reunion for Part III. Or maybe she'll never get back with her. Now that I think about it, Ellie has been with 3 girls by 19: Riley, Cat and Dina.
They're probably going to save Dina reunion for Part III. Or maybe she'll never get back with her. Now that I think about it, Ellie has been with 3 girls by 19: Riley, Cat and Dina.
SMH. This idea of Abby's story sounds SOOOOO much better than what we got. Joel killing Abby's family right in front of Abby in caravan ambush would have totally justified her actions.
But no, what we got was garbage shit, all due to a stupid NPC from the first game who had no right to become the main character in the second one.
Because that's what many think the game will be about. She's moving on, learning to love herself and see that her life does have meaning. Some people need to hit rock bottom to begin the road to healing again. Main point though, is that it wouldn't make sense (also pacing wise) for her to reunite with Dina at the end, because it takes away from the idea that Ellie is going wherever the wind takes her.
Comments
it's not that Abby is heartless insomuch as she believes she's acting in a quid-pro-quo manner: for her, Ellie is a monster for murdering one pregnant woman and then begging that a second be spared only because the second is a friend. Abby has no idea that Ellie didn't mean for Mel's death to happen.
And Abby never asks why Ellie did that or how she killed them. She just wanted to straight up kill everyone. Pathetic...
The game’s point is that you are also describing Ellie’s actions right there.
Except Ellie killed Abby's friends in self-defense. She killed Jordan to save Dina and she killed Owen and Mel because they proceeded to attack her.
Nora is the only one Ellie killed intentionally. But it seemed more like a mercy kill because she was dying via the spores and Ellie could have just let her suffer.
Ellie pushes Nora into the spores.
Up next: What is the deal... with Gamers? More at 11.
And this is why I said: "Nora is the only one Ellie killed intentionally"
And you could say that she was killed because Ellie had no choice but to put her life at risk from her life being in danger. Luckily she doesn't do that to her friends.
But you tried to excuse it as a mercy kill, which it was not. She hot her killed when she pushed her into the spores and then tortured her to death. None of that was mercy.
But I don’t wanna go on another tangent here. The point is Ellie also didn’t ask any questions before embarking on a revenge quest, killing numerous WLF and scars who had nothing to do with what happened with Joel, so you’re not holding both her and Abby to the same standard.
Yeah, that's the story of the game. No-one ever wants to understand the other point of view, from Joel and Ellie, to the WLF vs Scars, etc.
I initially thought this too but now (thanks to the prespective of some users on here and rewatching some key moments on youtube) I think it actually runs deeper than that! Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her revenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out). Killing Joel didn't fix her, becoming a better person did.
And maybe that gives us the answer of what happens at the end: Ellie is drowning Abby, she basically got what she wanted, 3 more seconds and it's done but... Joel appears, he is still there, haunting her. In that moment Ellie realizes Abby being alive was never what was eating away at her and that it wouldn't serve as a solution.
The real problem is that she never got to forgive Joel (as Poogers pointed out). To let him go she needed to realize that it wasn't about how she felt about Abby, but how she felt about herself and how she left things with him.
Now, "ReVeNgE bAd" is still very much an important and recurring theme, sure, but I believe it wasn't the main point the game was trying to make. Instead it's something more like "revenge probably won't fix your grief over the loss of your loved ones, fixing yourself will".
I don't care who is gonna win GOTY 2020 but the only thing I can hope for is this game losing to its competitors. It might win best art direction and all which would be totally fine but doesn't deserve GOTY in any way.
It doesn't deserve to be nominated for GOTY either but probably will (?).
Got through a good chunk of the story over the course of the evening(and some late afternoon) and think I might as well give some initial thoughts
(Spoiler for conformity)
I can see where the criticism of the game being a bit boring comes from. I was honestly pretty disinterested until Dina's introduction.
Of the cast thus far, I think Dina and to an extent [Asian esque guy who the internet might call simp] are the closest to being characters I feel any positivity for. There's a couple of reasons for that, but in this case, they're the only characters who are enjoyable or sympathetic(urgh). For the most part: it's not so subtly confirmed from the old dancing cutscene-trailer not in the game that she likes to flirt and even sleep around, which the second to last scene before I stopped confirmed to a fridged yikes...!
To address the cast as a whole though, what the hell has happened? Dina is the character to keep me engaged for much of the run because she's actually around to bring some consistent life to the screen. [Chill guy]? Disappears after getting cucked. Joel? We'll get to him. Tommy? Basically ten steps ahead after things get going. Abby? Later. [Abby's leader]? Thought he randomly turned ruthless too before noticing the subtitles. I mean went from a community of about twenty plus a group of seven to two lesbians on a horse and the occasional gang member at turf war? I remember the first game was 50% Joel and Ellie, but where is everyone and why are they such dead air?
Let's talk about Abby. Plot aside for a second, seeing that it was Laura Bailey yesterday was interesting, as I might not have been able to tell since she mainly sounds like a Deep Southern Ellie. And I know Joel isn't that tall a man realistically, but it's still striking to see her outdo him physically and the blonde braided ponytail was amusing to actually see in-game(even if it telegraphs the Shadow Archetype angle more). The giveaway opinions on her made it to fill in the already partially done blanks, so I knew she'd become the main antagonist and have a pretty good idea what her motivation was(heh...). So at first, I was thrown off but intrigued to see how Abby was interested in the move to have her be introduced as a playable character before she assumes that role and the interaction with [her leader] was good way to not only play on the hypothetical audience's ignorance by emulating a similar relationship to our other PCs(erm), but also hint at some distrust that sets up whatever's going on with her. But oh my goodness, that leaves the room shockingly fast and has remained that way for most of this, contributing to the feeling of not only meh pacing, but questionable storytelling in general.
So hitting the "big" point that was predictable as all get out, Joel gets it in the beginning. So maybe I was fooled by that old teaser after ANF plus one commercial on Toonami, but I didn't think it would happen this early and/or would've assumed that he'd be on the revenge quest before Ellie's refusal to let go causes him to meet his fate; in the lead up to that, I would've thought we'd have another Ellie&David segment of the story that would eventually pay off with it as well, given the "shouldn't have given their names talk I glimpsed earlier." Talking about his characterization though, wasn't Joel a grizzled distrustful butterstick and a bit of a selfish cynic?
To hammer in my point about agreeing with Pat on this story though, the fact that it's practically Tess's original role as the MAIN Direction really does keep me from investing. I realize it could partly be because I once again didn't play through the first game, but I honestly don't care for Joel--the first game was basically "The Ellie Game" to me in part due of that. I generally avoid thinking that way in the past, but I'd be lying if I felt anything about his at least dignified death and while he does come across better in a few scenes here, it doesn't register as anything beyond a tad strange. That said, and I just thought of this in the next point, why wasn't there a mourning/burial sequence for what was the previous protagonist?
I feel like Tommy, [Mr Stole my girl,] and to a lesser extent Maria and even Biggot-Sandwich-tender could've been in this more? I kinda forgot Maria was in the first game, but her vibe as a firm voice for right could've been used a bit more as a mother figure for Ellie and was an appropriate consoler for when her Brother in Law was lost in the blizzard. Tommy despite seeming cool is so majorly intangible as a character right now--he's Joel's older brother who we learn had quite a violent history of his own causing him to leave a trail of carnage for Ellie&Dina to follow, but at this point it's been a bit since they seemed close to him and I'm just wondering if he's got reverse rubber band AI leading him to his own death at this point. And finally, I really do feel for Abby's ex-boyfriend, as he's responsible and a certain limit of understanding while seemingly existing to get Mako'd and then is just gone before he can among others can react to Joel's death. While it might've caused some drama and detracted from the peculiarly minimal romance of the trip, he could've went along to try to keep them somewhat in line but it's pretty much impossible since they'd have traveled about a state away.
Quick Question: who is Leah? I realize I might've looked down or checked out for a bit, but the next thing I knew, they find a photo in the back of a Wolf truck or something and say "That's her." When the hell did they see her and why would they be after her and not Abby at that point in their trek? And in regards to the WLF in general, once they find her arrowed body in her hotel room with a walkie talkie suggesting she's high profile, Ellie says fuck her and upon finally picking out Abby among her collection of photos, they outright say they got three of them already. Was this the Asian dude that vouched for not killing Ellie upon recognizing her & then deciding to choke out Dina for some reason? And the dude Tommy tortured alongside some other rando, right?
Getting to the black heart of this series, I do not like what Ellie is, I have to say. I realize she might not have been the most amazing character in Part 1 and that is a story about vengeful emptiness, but she is just so prone to aggression and dismissiveness from nearly the word go present day. She's also so dead, as my feelings about Dina shows, which the somewhat corny flashbacks with Rosé glasses really hammers home. Abby suddenly leaving the plot after her Joel In One really doesn't do her any favors, as the game gave us a taste of the only other perspective for the conflict before taking all but the vaguely greasy plate away.
Finally, let's talk about the flashbacks, as the game starts with one and the last scene I watched was a suddenly extensive second one. They're are there to provide down good vibes for the previous main characters and levity to the otherwise bloody meandering plot, which was actually kinda needed with the latter. All that is to say, they have a bit of a tone problem: these seem to go out of their way to slightly overidealize Kenn-- I mean Joel into this deadpan, yet jovial and warm man who did nice things for the girl he didn't even want to smuggle. The second one that I ended my stretch with is basically a 30 minutes tangent about Jurassic Park with a bizarre astronaut fade at the end, which was needly enjoyable in places but also a testament to how this story has terrible motion. And the first sets up what very much appears to be a thematic device, with Joel playing a guitar while singing "If I were to lose you, I'd lose part of myself," that is foreboding af and it doesn't help that Ellie doing it again in the theater coincides with fridge horror per the exchange Aron posted earlier.
Overall, not looking good in many ways.
Did...did you think I was being serious?
Bro, it's the Rick and Morty copypasta. Lol.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty
Oh my god. I am so stupid. lmfao
It means a lot of things. Cheap answer but really it's whatever you take away from it, that's what matters.
Isn't Tommy Joel's younger brother? And Leah is Jordan's girlfriend, the only truly innocent one who was shocked by Abby's swings, didn't carry a weapon, and dies to Scars. Only one to not die from revenge I think.
Oh yeah. I couldn't help but get that mixed up since they've portrayed Tommy as more dutiful and experienced.
Jordan wasn't the leader, was he? Cause I know he got a girl named Mel pregnant(an inadvertent red herring, I'm sure). Idk, there were up to nine of those guys and the lack of introduction meant I can only recall five of them by sight.
Admittedly, I still hadn't hopped in just yet. Woody reminded me of the emptiness aspect, which I can kinda feel in places.
This video just proves how Naughty Dog thought we would fall for this bullshit. I even pointed that out in my playthrough video. Talk about whitewashing.
Seems to me like it's just a generic character model they dressed up in swabs and put a mask on. When they went to remake this scene in the second game, I think they remodeled everything, including the head surgeon to look like whoever got cast as Jerry. I don't think it's intentional "whitewashing" since this surgeon was just some random NPC dude, when it came to remake him I'm sure they decided to model it off of the actor (though that surprises me in why not re-hire the same VA from the first game for detail-accuracy, but I doubt this character had a named cast slot -- like Firefly Doctor: John Smith -- he was just one of the many additional voices made to read tons of enemy and NPC lines for the game)
But yeah clearly they didn't have a sequel planned or intended when the first game came out.
Wow, this game looks rougher lately. Interesting detail with the scars on his head though.
That honestly gives the impression that they changed his race(if they actively did and didn't just forget) to avoid having one of the only black characters in the sequel thus far(that I can tell) be mercilessly slaughtered by Joel.
Oh, just to give a quick correction for those who read my early thoughts, I honestly got Abby and Dina's names mixed up at points. This is why I said Abby is one of the only characters I kinda like, then go on to say Dina is carrying parts of the game in a following point; I also forgot to activate the usual bullet point format.
Is it a different VA? I thought they sounded the same. Speaking of the NPC's name, in the description, the youtuber said that the name for that doctor NPC model in the first game is Bruce.
what do u guys think
Jordan isn't the leader and Owen got Mel pregnant.
Just generic hunter character model, proves that when Neil made the endnig he didn't think "hey, what if this guy's daughter is prominent in the sequel?". But it's not whitewashing, Tommy looks very different too. Lighting was jank in that game, and the environments and characters had a very green and brown dirty look to them.
If this theory true, then I don't know what to think anymore. I'm not buying it though
I don't buy it, because Neil said the original ending would be Ellie picking up JJ's toy, indicating she would head back to Jackson. But they scrapped it so the third game could have more ideas. Of course she wouldn't call out Dina's name, she knew that would be the case. No-one thinks this and people are now "figuring it out" and I don't know what Naughty Dog's reasoning is to make it so hidden. An interpretation for sure, but not one that I buy into.
Now that you mention it, I definitely remember a lot of NPC models having a dirty, greasy, tan look to them. In fact I'm sure I remember seeing this surgeon face model as one of the character models for the Multiplayer (randomly selected player models at the start of every match)
Looking back at what ND tried to push with the first game compared to their tech and quality of this game, it can be pretty hilarious, like how Ellie being so comically tiny compared to the BIG Joel-sized table on PS3, whereas in the remade cutscene the operating table is as big as her -- as it should be.
Yes, while the ending is symbolic. The ending is in no way, a "happy" ending for Ellie's character. Her father figure gets brutally killed, she has to live with the fact that all of the people she killed were for nothing, and she is living with her worst fear... Being alone. I do not get why people say this is a happy ending, it really isn't.
I think its more likely doing the whole "my significant other doesn't approve my actions so I take off my wedding ring while Im doing said action" type of deal.
i think they believe its an happy ending bc they think she got back to jackson and is with dina
So I've been taking a break for a few hours in time for a different sort of flashback and think I'll debrief a bit before continuing.
It's been better than it was before, but then it bottlenecked at a particular set of developments...and I pretty much know what's after next.
I just finished the game and I'd personally give it a good 6/10. The gameplay, presentation, and performances are all fantastic. The story is what really drags it down though. It was pretty messy and made quite a few really bizarre decisions that I don't think really worked to its benefit. But in the end, I don't think it's the disaster that the internet hypes it up as. Worst Naughty Dog game? Maybe. Worst game ever made, though? Definitely not. I've played WAY worse games than this. Get outta here with that shit.
All will be revealed in time, Dabig. And the story really hasn't forgotten about her, and won't forget about her for the foreseeable future.
Though I'm sure once you've finished that recent flashback you'll realise what the story's new trajectory is. Abby's just hasn't been as relevant to Ellie's revenge quest apart from an end goal. She's got her own problems she's dealing with.
Okay, did a little bit more before checking out for the night
I'm engaged by these recent back to back detours and I can't tell if that's a good thing. Probably cause it's not.
They're probably going to save Dina reunion for Part III. Or maybe she'll never get back with her. Now that I think about it, Ellie has been with 3 girls by 19: Riley, Cat and Dina.
Why would they save the reunion for the next game? They could have easily just put it in the game, seeing how it's full of unnecessary plotlines.
SMH. This idea of Abby's story sounds SOOOOO much better than what we got. Joel killing Abby's family right in front of Abby in caravan ambush would have totally justified her actions.
But no, what we got was garbage shit, all due to a stupid NPC from the first game who had no right to become the main character in the second one.
Because that's what many think the game will be about. She's moving on, learning to love herself and see that her life does have meaning. Some people need to hit rock bottom to begin the road to healing again. Main point though, is that it wouldn't make sense (also pacing wise) for her to reunite with Dina at the end, because it takes away from the idea that Ellie is going wherever the wind takes her.