The Choice To Kill
First off, before people somehow make the most impressive death threats ever. Lemme just say this...
What are Batman stories like? What do they include? How do they end?
Well, for the most part...
A villain either makes his criminal debut in Gotham, or breaks out of Arkham Asylum for the 100th time that week.
Then Batman faces off against them. Usually doesn't conclude the storyline.
Then people die... Keep that in mind. Someone almost always dies at this part of the story. The start and end can vary... But almost every single time, someone dies.
Then Batman stops said villain and tosses him back in Arkham, keeping his moral code intact.
So, what would be the most meaningful choice, as Batman? The Dark Knight undoubtedly has more willpower than all of us combined, and he barely avoids making this choice every single time.
To kill. That's the only meaningful choice that Telltale could give to the player. The only choice that would impact that Batman character.
Before you mention comics, let me get this outta the way first...
Batman: The Killing Joke is regarded as one of the best Batman stories of all time. It perfectly breaks down the relationship between Batman and the Joker.
Not only does it show the asskicking Batman we've always known. It also shows how Batman is simply a good person. One who tries to help these villains.
The Killing Joke spoilers in Italic text: Batman actually visits the Joker, to try and reason with him. He's come to the realization that they're at a stalemate, and that at one point, one of them is gonna have to kill the other. So, the Joker had already broken out, kidnaps Gordon, tries to kill his daughter, almost drives him insane... And then Batman shows up, and tries to give the Joker one last chance. And in his sanest moment, the Joker considers it, then decides that he doesn't deserve that second chance. He tells Batman a joke, and Batman laughs at it. Not because it's hilarious, but because he wants the Joker to have that, he wants him to know that he finally made the Batman laugh... Before reaching out and strangling the living shit out of him.
But that's what the Joker wants. Now, I'm not saying Batman - The Telltale Series should be Joker-centric, but he is a driving force in Batman's psyche. There have been many variations of the story, but every single time, Batman's actions or inactions are always the direct cause of the Joker (Sometimes he fails to save him from the acid, other times he dunks him in the acid himself).
So the Joker is a living, breathing, laughing, murdering monument of what happens when Batman crosses the line. Even if indirectly... None of that 'I don't have to save you' bullshit. The simple existence of the Joker drives Batman to, not only never kill, but save everyone he can.
The Dark Knight Returns spoilers in bold text: In the third issue, Batman and the Joker fight, practically alone in a tunnel. Batman, old and tired, gets almost completely outmatched by the Joker. He tries to snap his neck. The Joker falls backwards, limp and paralyzed. The Joker sees the few witnesses run, calling Batman a killer. And that's all he wants... He quietly has his last laugh, and then he kills himself.
To put it simply, in case you wanted to avoid reading the spoilers: For Batman to kill, is for the Joker to win.
And after all that... Then there's Batfleck, who kills people because... Those Luthor henchmen killed Robin. Who also thinks his mother is alive... On a magic farm.
So, if this game gave you the choice to take a life... Would you do it? Would you be mad that the game even suggested it in the first place?
Comments
That is one of the choices that I am expecting the most. I think that we will have to make this choice at some point in this game (climax, probably). So, I like how you perceive this whole Batman and Joker situation here. That is much of it, I would like to add, though (something that you probably know), that Batman's personal rule against killing has also connection with his parents' murder case. Batman can not do such a thing, for Batman to kill means to perform everything that he is up against. To kill for him is to lose control of everything, he knows that he would not be able to stop. Not killing is the only thing that keeps him apart from those he fights (on his mind). He has this trauma and is as ill as any of his villains. But he is only human, and can not allow himself to die neither, if Batman dies, who will be there for Gotham? So, on extreme situations, that is when we have the killing Batman. However, killing changes him, makes him become tired, unmotivated, shady, but Bruce never gives up right? He is just cursed to fight all this devils as one of them until the end. Now to answer your main question, my Batman does not kill unless he needs to.
I'm definitely gonna choose the kill option.
....Sigh....
Let me give you some info on the lies you just spread, nothing personal, but as someone that has being reading Batman for 20 years now I´m just pissed that this misinterpretations are so common.
In the Killing Joke batman doesn´t kill the Joker, that was a Grant Morrison commentary that went viral and still to this day people think is true, Alan Moore never intended to have a definitive answer to that last page, as he use to joke back then "Nah, they just shake hands". Gran Morrison, for however that doesn´t know it, was in his youth an "anarchist writer" as he use to say, he despised a lot of the comicbooks conventions for the shake of hating it, he has accept this himself on later years admitting that he use to be that much vocal to call attention to him. In one of his most famous attentions call, he decided that he will criticize and try to diminish Alan Moore´s work, who in that time was at the peak of his fame even beyond the comicbook pages, so he started to launch shit in al of Alan Moore´s work directions, a trend that he has continued even today on his PAX Americana series when as clear slap he recretes the argument of Watchmen with the original characters Alan Moore wanted to use back then, the Action Hero characters (Blue Bettle, The Question...). And as a part of that, he decided that he will convice everyone that Alan Moore fucked the Batman canon by killing Joker, and that everyone was an idiot for not realizing so. Allan Moore has stated time after time that the Joker doesn´t die in the end, that he wrote an open to discussion and interpretation ending on porpoise, "how far do you think Batman should let the Joker go?". Sadly, Grant Morrison is a more vocal individual than Alan Moore, and since Allan More refused to talk about DC after he stop working there, the Morrison´s rumor spread while the truth was ignored. This rumor, and other several that Morrison spread are till present in a lot of Allan Moore works, and it was in part one of the many reason Allan Moore wanted to stop working for DC, among editorial problems and the feeling that his work was heavily controlled (The Killing Joke was an elseworld story and only after the success was made canon, which pissed Moore a lot) plus the big hatred he start feeling for the company after DC refuses him the use of Constantine as he pleased while they use his creation on it´s own vertigo title.
Secondly, despite what WB tells you with his movies, The Dark Knight returns in not the perfect Batman story, is not even canon and is written by a men with no connection to reality (Frank Miller), a drunken american patriot that has being writing the same 2 stories for his entire life, the way he portraits Batman is not to be taken as seriously as people on the internet does, quoting it as a defense for Batman being violent and killing, which also doesn´t happen in the book, he doesn´t kill Joker, he´s pushed so far that he leaves him paralyze, and then Joker kills himself. In the same book Batman refuses that his followers use guns or kill anyone.
So, in general, no, no option to kill, batman doesn´t kill, and I know you internet kids have a hard time understing that becuase there´s this one tumblr post that scans comicpages of more than 50 years ago and put it out of context to say "Batman has always kill", when is not true at all.
The only thing I can say without resorting to aggression is... Presumptuous.
I can literally tell at which point in my thread you stopped paying attention,
"The Joker falls backwards, limp and paralyzed. The Joker sees the few witnesses run, calling Batman a killer. And that's all he wants... He quietly has his last laugh, and then he kills himself." Is what I said. At which point, you point out that I'm wrong and that Batman actually paralyzed the Joker and it's the Joker that actually snaps his own neck.
That probably means you're just projecting. You've probably seen a lot of people do this, and you're projecting their image onto me and arguing with them, and mentally blocking out what I'm saying. I can assure you, I've either bought those comics or gotten them off my own personal pirate ship about which I will not go into further detail and I will not admit anything. Ahem.
I never said that Batman always kills. I said that he's been pushed to the brink, citing the Killing Joke as a flawless way of executing it. No pun intended.
Honestly, fuck all that Grant Morrion and Moore stuff. It's all behind the scenes. It doesn't matter. What do you think sounds better... Batman develops as a character and does something so many people have said he should, or they reveal that Batman is actually a fucking rock with no human qualities, laughs it up with the Joker as they share a sweet moment where they both accept that Batman is going to kill him, then taps the Joker on the back and drives him back to Arkham, only for the Joker to escape before dinner and kill 50 more people?
It's simple character development, man. You know what we'd have without character development? 40s era Batman. He'd be hopin' around, makin' puns and Bang, Pow, Shabanging these robbers wearing white striped shirts and carry around brown bags with a dollar sign painted on.
A lot of the times someone is asked why they love Batman, they either say because of his villains, or because of the fact that he's a human who has kicked enough asses to land him a position among gods. And then these people turn around and lose their shit when Batman shows the slightest hint of human emotions.
Like you, I have nothing against you. It's just that you're projecting so hard onto me I'm probably casting a shadow on your powerpoint presentation.
Hey, listen man. I'm sorry for the other reply saying you're projecting and stuff.
I don't know you, and I don't mean to insult you, and I hope you took no offense.
You think we can agree to disagree? I'm new here and I don't wanna get off on the wrong foot with somebody.
Exactly. That's the kind of story structure I expect from a new Batman game. Pushed to the brink, and tense, character changing choice. Sure, it might be clichéd for a gritty Batman plot ("Oh, Batman upholds this rule where he doesn't kill... [climax-]** and about that...would you break that rule?**"), and I'm not saying I would choose the kill option, but it would seem like the right, "canon" choice, if you will.
I just love it when some big moment like that happens in entertainment. Like some beloved character dying and their lover goes on a crazy revenge trip, showing their emotions, being the complete opposite of who they would normally be. (I would find proof of this in cinema or tv, but I can't think of any at the moment... oops.)
...uh, I guess. I mean, I don´t really take offense on the internet, specially when people overreact to a guy simply saying "hey, you´re wrong, this are the facts" Just because you have bad information doesn´t mean I attacked you in any way, I know is hard to understand for most people on the internet this days apparently, but disagreeing or correcting someone is not related to any form of aggression. I suggest you learn this for your own shake, because you´ll find disagreeing voices during your entire life.
Also, no, you can´t say "fuck all that Allan Moore and Morrison shit, it ain´t matter". It does matter when the quote you use is from Grant Morrison and not Allan Moore and you presented as proof that Batman killed Joker in the comicbook, which is, again, false and based on interviews given by a different artist with no relationship to the book and a stated animosity towards the writer of the book in mention.
EDIT: "A lot of the times someone is asked why they love Batman, they either say because of his villains, or because of the fact that he's a human who has kicked enough asses to land him a position among gods. And then these people turn around and lose their shit when Batman shows the slightest hint of human emotions." Killing is not an emotion FYI.
Batman used to kill during the first 5 years of his comics and has killed in many stories. He also shot Darkseid with the intention of killing him.
He killed off KGBeast, Killed Bane, He killed Ras Al Ghul in Batman Annual 8
"Batman has killed tons of people before the New 52, during his first year he was killing people fairly regularly. He was still killing people off and on during the 80s, such as in 1988s "The Cult""
80s Batman -
Killed Qayin at the end of Son of the Demon by kicking him into electric cables
Locked the KGBeast underground to starve (later retconned)
Blew people up in The Cult
Sent a car careening into some suicide bombers in DC 590
Blew up a bunch of crooks in Legends of the Dark Knight 31.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20111_the-6-most-brutal-murders-committed-by-batman.html
http://www.newsarama.com/19848-world-s-deadliest-10-times-batman-and-superman-have-killed-their-enemies.html
http://whatculture.com/comics/9-times-batman-broke-his-one-rule-and-killed
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-2851427
But yeah lets ignore those (facepalm)
Batman has also killed in alternate versions and this is Telltales take on Batman, not cannon so they can make a kill option
I think the kill options will be just be used as "I won't kill you, but I won't save you either".
Ok first off the first 5 years canon argument needs to die. Its not cannon to the current version. Infact it hasn't been cannon to ANY version for nearly 60 years. That Batman was killing when he didn't even have a backstory has absolutetely no relation to if he kills now. Especially considering that the character has evolved so much during the past decades.
All those lists are filled with non cannon material of either elseworld tales or just Series by authors to other incarnations of the characters. Infact Frank Millers 'All Star Batman' the most often mentioned in all of them is a story in his own personal canon and infact is one of the most hated stories ever to have the character, to the point in which many pretend hes not Batman, because he's compleatly out of character.
Finally you have a single solidary argument. Yes Batman did Kill Qayin and left Kgbeast to starve. He technically also killed Bane, but years later it was revealed he survived. He did also try to kill Darkside since he felt the universe would never be safe until he died but Wonder Woman talked him out of doing it. Good Job here.
But it is now that i realise how pointless your whole argument really is. Since, as you yourself state, this is Telltale's reimagining of the character and his mythos with their own personal canon that has absolutetely nothing to do with any other versions besides the fact they feature the same characters and are also reimaginings. So.....why didn't you just say that? Why did you feel the need to give all this, mostly irrelevant, information. Its like you were trying to prove he did kill in canon so its ok for him to kill in the game..........forgetting that, again, this has nothing to do with the canon. ANY of the canons.
To be honest i think how much brutality is used would be the likelier choices.
The original Batman is cannon, he is just a different Batman from a alternate reality, Also trying to kill someone is attempted murder, hence meaning he would be breaking his kill rule.
You keep mentioning non cannon material while missing my point. This is non cannon.
It is Telltales take on it.
So Batman CAN kill.
end thread.
................. THATS HOW I ENDED MY ARGUMENT, DID YOU EVEN READ IT!!!!!!!
Your comments have the habit of matching your avatar.
God I hope not.
There should be a kill option considering that batman has killed so many times in the comics. The public/police should treat batman differently if he kills people. Sounds like too much work tho and I feel like we're not going to see that....
What does that mean?
You're Jack Torrance. You kill; it's what you do!
Well, not all the time.
I was once a good father, until I got possessed by a haunted hotel.
If there was something like that implemented, I don't know how diverse it could be. If there were "varying" outcomes in what people think of you it would probably only be one thing or the other. In the Wolf Among Us when I interrogated the Woodsman, I did everything for him and hit him once. Then everyone was all "I heard about what you did to Woody you violent-terrible-evil-stereotypical wolf!"
I'd rather eat them.
Eyyy Hannibal Lecter!
I don't feel like killing people in Batman universe. Villains won't be that bad, will it? I mean, so heartless to kill a lot of innocent people.
Forgive for my English, I read that Batman shall kill the enemy therefore I ask you Telltate Games add to a plot murder for Batman, from it game will only become more interesting! Thank you for your attention!
The option to kill has always been a grey area. There are no right and wrong choice, but in this case there should be an option depending on the situation whether a villain is about to die would you save him or would you let him die. You don't have to kill them, but you don't have to save them either. If it's Joker then I would let him die because we all know what he's capable off
I also want an option to steal a villain's money because hell with them when they get to prison. Plus the option to steal a villain's teach for your use. Which would ultimately change the gameplay
I Would Kill sometimes Not all though
I think the option for Batman to kill should be there. First off the option for Batman to kill exists in the comics but he chooses not to do it. Therefore it follows that the choice for Batman to kill (along with the consequences of such a choice) should be on the table for the player as well. What Batman do you want to be? Honorable Kevin Conroy Batman? Homocidal Ben Affleck Batman? Apathetic Christian Bale Bat? Utilitarian Michael Keaton Bat? Goofy Adam West Bat? I want the options to be any of those Bats and more on the table!
All that said, I personally won't be using the kill option. I've used it in many other games but for me it doesn't feel right for Batman to be killing.
Maybe not killing but we can maybe expect him to torture criminals ?
Hey...I like Batman. No arguments there...right!?
I'm of the -- "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" -- rule of thought.
My Batman won't kill anyone with his bare hands, but nor will he dive off buildings to save irredeemable mass murderers.
And I would go full Jack Bauer on criminals to get information (in fact, I already did in the first episode). Sorry, but if blowing up cops' heads with incendiary rounds is your day-job, you can't cry when someone who's bigger and tougher breaks your arm. You basically asked for it. lol
I might. It all depends on the circumstances. If it's in self-defense, maybe - if it's a particularly dangerous attacker. If it serves the greater good/stops a villain from executing his/her dastardly master plan, probably - unless I sympathize with said plan. If someone hurt or threatened to hurt someone I love, definitely - in the slowest, most painful way possible.
its a possibility, I mean telltale has already basically said this is your batman to create maybe that means we can kill.
I doubt i'd kill anyone unless eye for eye type thing for example in Michonne I shot and killed Ryan because Norma's trigger happy bodygaurd killed one of my friends RIGHT before i was going to hand back Ryan
THE GAME NEEDS to give us the choice to take sides that doesn't necessarily mean you have to kill or continue to be a threat to Gotham (if you want) & i'll also say this in every thread WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAVE HARVEY FROM BECOMING TWO-FACED AND HATING US and I want to help Oz for some reason but still be a Hero that saves and I want Oz to like Wayne and the Bat
Okay this is exactly what this game should have. Why? because like you said it would be THE most meaningful choice this game could have! As long as they make it so that bruce is greatly distressed by the action and doesn't stray away from his character they have to do it! They should only pull this card once or at the most why so he's not his father in Flashpoint (book cause in the movie he uses guns) and don't anyone in the comments of the world's greatest detective has never killed in canon, here is one time he intentionally broke his rule in Canon (well pre-52 anyway). In final crisis Batman shot Darkseid with that God killing weapon to save the uni or Multiverse I forget and although it didn't kill him is still broke his rule. Now I don't expect it to be on that level but maybe to have to save a lot of people or someone close to him or maybe even something like in Man of Steel ( spoilers) Superman killed Zod. But in my cheek pressed to the core and swear to never do it again making you question your own morality and maybe even call Bruce to hang up the cape and cowl between seasons. Keep in mind that these games are about choice and if you don't want your Batman to kill no one is forcing butt I play as if I were Bruce and I would probably break the rule in extreme circumstances but it depends on my attachment to the character I would save or was murdered and if the situation emotionally stimulates me, I would try to restrain myself but if they kill for example Jason Todd or any of the Robins or even Alfred (probably not going to happen in any of these games) I would. Keep in mind this is its own story and it's keep in mind this is its own story and it should do whatever it takes to make it as compelling and interesting as possible and this would definitely be interesting. (Sorry for ramble)
I rarely kill in Telltale games if I can avoid it; mercy and forgiveness is how I live my life, so I have it reflect in these choice-based games too. :V It's not the "smart" thing perhaps, but I can't allow myself to become as monstrous as those I'm trying to fight. If it's a case like Randall in Michonne, where they are irredeemably psychotic like a rabid dog, I'd consider killing them the actual act of mercy. Otherwise, no.
Ok, this isn't really regarding the question asked in the comment...
If that actually happens, that's some of the best written confrontation I've heard of in any superhero fiction ever. Wow. Bravo.
I felt I had to say something about that.
That's not... really what was intended.
This is how Alan Moore thinks of it, and his opinion of the comic has soured over time. He wrote the thing, though the nice thing about the ending is that it is open to interpretation. Here's how he put it -
"...for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway."
Source: https://www.inverse.com/article/14967-alan-moore-now-believes-the-killing-joke-was-melodramatic-not-interesting
That doesn't really confirm things one way or another, but I get the impression Moore was going for something... a bit different from what most people assume. I still like the comic, though. Good read.
I'm confused. You're still telling the OP he's wrong, yet, he literally points out that the Joker does in fact kill himself and that Batman doesn't "truly" kill him. He points this out in literally both his original post, and his reply to your comment.
Twice, your reading comprehension abilities have failed you. Twice, you still somehow blindly claim that he was wrong. I'm sensing a narcissistic personality disorder.
It is also worth noticing that the original script is part of the later editions of the book. There you can read Moore´s original description where he express that Batman and Joker laugh maniacally, holding into each other while laughing. The idea was having both characters with their hands on the other one, but Brian Bolland drawings have only Batman reaching for Joker, and everything is in shadows making it look like Batman is truly strangulating Joker. It´s a theory cemented on a bad artistic decision that didn´t express correctly the words on the script.
Also people use to mention that the last panel has no sound effects or light, as if the laugh of both character has stopped and the light of the incoming cars is blocked by Joker´s corpse. Again, the original script proves this theory wrong, Moore´s writes "and we get back to the very first panel, showing that nothing really change and everything starts again", which was a pretty damn clever way of Moore to show his growing disliking of the hero genre in general and batman in particular. He never truly liked the caped crusader and was more interested in his villains, he has a magnificent Clayface 3 story that is still one of the best Batman stories that deals with the physique of batman´s villains.
Like I said in another thread or post, this whole theory only exist because of Morrison theory on Kevin Smith podcast a few years ago. But i better stop talking about this, OP has a hard time accepting the original script as evidence...somehow.
That post made no sense. Anyway, Batman doesn't kill and DC would never allow it.