Let's take a look into this mystery.
Alright, theorizing time folks, I'm going to try and theorize on what exactly is going on in this conspiracy and who is the person pulling the strings.
So it's no mystery that the mercenaries at City Hall and the warehouse crime scene are the same and could possibly work for Falcone or are simply hired guns to do dirty work, whatever the case, I theorize that Falcone may have found out about this "evidence" data drive in the mayor's office and intended to acquire it to try and keep Mayor Hill from blackmailing him if their partnership comes to a rocky path, which makes sense considering you always need to be one step ahead of your opponents if you're running a criminal empire but that heist plan fails when Batman enters the picture and gets the stolen data drive from Catwoman who's possibly working for someone else who's fighting against Falcone.
Now we cut to the warehouse scene where apparently Selina was supposed to drop the data drive to her "client" but since she flaked, mercenaries were hired to find the secret container themselves and then the whole open shootout started, now according to the merc Falcone hired them to obtain containers filled with chemicals but according to Falcone, he had nothing to do with the mess at the docks and never intended batman to find any calling card and claims both he and Batman are being manipulated. Now he could obviously be lying to save his skin but the merc did mention that he was paid to just do the job and not ask questions which kind of gives me the idea that some other person TOLD them that Falcone wanted the chemicals and the mercs just went along with it, so it could be that someone else hired the mercs and put the blame all on Falcone to try and cover their tracks from Batman.
Now, the next question is...who hired Catwoman to steal the data drive and the mercs at the warehouse if what Falcone is saying is true? It's too early to say, but Cobblepot seems like an easy target considering his disdain for Falcone and it can't be too much of a coincidence that he suddenly shows up to "warn" Bruce about a revolution he going to start right after Bruce gets into a whole fiasco with a stolen data drive heist but he easily could be a red herring and he's kind a of small time crook at the moment but we'll see, it's not concrete but he's a suspect.
I also think maybe Harvey Dent could be the "client" or maybe the "client" is working for him, now don't get me wrong, Harvey seems like a likeable person who wants to help Gotham and build it back up from the ashes and I believe he feels that way at heart, but he does mention Falcone being a necessary evil in ensuring he'll get enough support to become Mayor so it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that maybe he's secretly hiring someone to manipulate both Falcone and Batman but still, it's too early to make accusations and like Harvey too much to full on say he's the puppet master.
Nothing I say is concrete, it's all just speculation and I could be totally WAY off with my assumptions but I just wanted to add some little discussion regarding the story.
Thoughts?
Comments
I think it's all about the new mental hospital vs. Arkham Asylum. So mayor Hill might be somehow involved with Dr. Strange for example. This would be a bit lazy, since he's kind of the main bad guy in the computer games and the Gotham TV show. But with the clues we have my money is on someone involved with Arkham Asylum. They want to make sure that they stay in business and can do their experiments or whatever. The neurotoxic gas (or whatever) in the stolen delivery can't be a coincidence.
I'm 98% sure that the other old family from the fund raiser is involved as well. I forgot their names. They're probably working with some secret cult of other big families. A bit like in the Arrow rebirth comic? From what they said and how they reacted etc. it is clear to me that they're evil.
Who is Catwoman working for? Well, the mercenary we interrogated kind of said that she was supposed to bring them the data. Do those guys work for Falcone? I'm not sure. I doubt it.
[EDIT] I assume the cops might have been working for Falcone/Hill? Anyway, has the white rose been placed to frame Falcone? I'm a bit confused about this part. I'll have to play it again and pay better attention.
Falcone confessed that he wanted the chemicals to sell on the blackmarket, so those were his goons getting them. The goons in city hall wanted the drive because it had the information about the containers, and I'm assuming Catwoman was with them so it would go smoothly, or she was trying to steal it for herself.
However, I'm confident that whoever was working with Falcone betrayed him. Honestly, Falcone isn't stupid, and there is no reason to leave calling card behind at a crime scene you don't want traced back to you. Who is it? Good question, Oz seems like a good bet regardless, seeing that he wants a "revolution" and he was seen in Falcone's club in the next scene, why is he there? Could be another unrevealed villain who we will meet next episode, a very likely chance seeing that this is the first episode. Harvey? I doubt that, but it's a possibility, he seems like a honestly good guy for now.
the cult of other families you're referring to would be the court of owls, a secret society thats run gotham for many years
What if the one behind the Wayne conspiracy is Bane? Think about it, in the comics there was a poltline where the identity of Bane's father was called into question and one of the potential fathers was Thomas Wayne, The massacre at the docks involved a nerve agent that enhanced aggression just like Bane's Venom, and the mercenary's we have seen bare a resemblance to luchadores.
She couldn't have been stealing it for herself , seems more likely she was working for someone else. I'm also not convinced that she was working with the mercenaries at City Hall considering they were still trying to get the door open while Catwoman was still in the office. You're probably right about the mercs going after the drive for the container number though.
Well, by stealing it for herself I meant for whatever client she was working for. There is a possibility that she was and that she wasn't. If she wasn't, then who was she working for? Who were the mercs working for? She was supposed to deliver them to the dock mercs, and if those mercs and the city hall mercs weren't working together then how are they different and how are they connected?
I personally assume she was working with them. They were the real force sent into get it and Catwoman was the back up.
If that's the case what exactly was the point of sending in mercs when the client could have of just had a thief steal it more quietly? Unless the mercs were there to distract Batman which would make some sense, but again I'm really not sure.
I really do think the mercs are just hired guns that'll work for anyone who's paying considering Falcone doesn't seem like he lying about not wanting to draw Batman out and the mercs at the warehouse left the white rose behind mane bcause they were working for so one else or maybe someone else placed the white rose.
To clarify: the mercs at City Hall and at the docks are only assumed to be working for Falcone. They themselves seem to believe they're working for him (as the guy you interrogate testifies). However, Falcone has no clue about the docks operation. This leads me to believe someone may sending the mercs to do his/her work as Falcone's middleman.
Potential suspects:
Harvey. While he isn't Two-Face yet, in the comics he is sometimes depicted as having a split personality BEFORE his face got ruined. Harvey's bad side might be enacting a plan to conquer Gotham without "good Harv's" knowledge.
Oz. As Bruce says, it might not be a coincidence that he returned to Gotham at the same time as Catwoman shows up. However, Oz does not seem to have the resources to pull off such an elaborate scheme, and he hates Falcone with such a passion, it's hard to believe he's working for him. Still, he is definitely going to end on top by the last episode. The game seems to be following the whole "YEAR ONE/YEAR TWO/GOTHAM" theme of "the freaks" taking control of the city from the common gangsters. Penguin is the first of these freaks.
The Wayne's family friends. Most likely part of an elite a-la Court of Owls (which would explain the whole "Waynes are gangsters" thing. It would also be pretty cool).
As Isterio said, someone involved at Arkham, since the fact that the asylum is being shut down seems a big plot point.
Maybe, but I can't confirm.
That could very well be the case, we don't know too much about them yet.
Holy shit, I totally forgot that we have a mystery to solve. I'm going to replay the first episode as soon as possible and gather all the information that I can. The most obvious choice is Oz but I'm afraid that it's kind of too obvious so its probably not him. I'm also okay if Hugo Strange is behind this,( I highly doubt that it's Hugo but you never know) or Sal Maroni trying to weaken Falcone's forces! I'd also love if the Court Of Owls made an appearance in this game. Bruce is looking for answers, could he possibly go to the Court and seek information about his parents?!
I have a theory that the waynes were court members but they left and the mugging was actually an assassination by the court and they probably are the ones behind all this
Holy shit. Someone give this guy a pen and let him write the batman script. That would be such an awesome twist. I hope that the waynes are related to the Court somehow, it'd be so interesting and refreshing to have the Court as a main/secondary villain. Sure, penguin, two face are awesome choices but they've had so many stories in the comics in the past. The court of owls is new blood and telltale has definitely what it takes to write a great and intriguing story around the Court. It might be an unpopular opinion here but I'd also love to have Hush in this game ( in a second season if they decide to make one). The comic was great just for the bruce-selina stuff and batman's characterization. Hush had a pretty good build up but his motives and his reveal felt flat and rushed. I feel like ttg has what it takes to pull off a great story and a great and interesting hush with actual motives. But yeah the court of owls is on the top of my list about which villains I wanna see in this game.
Thank you sir/maam
I would like hush to be in this game as well, the arkham games had the perfect opportunity to do something interesting with him but failed, he would've been a great antagonist for arkham knight than red hood
I think the court of owls are behind this and they know batmans real identity, they sent catwoman in to steal the data but they anticipated batmans interference so they sent in the mercs to distract him while selina got the data drive and I think oz may be in league with them
Huh, sounds plausible. Wonder which way this will go.
Not to rain on anyone's parade but that's the plot of the comic book arc that introduced the Court. When his parents died, Bruce thought the Court had orchestrated the mugging, and desperately looked for proof of their existence.
20 years later, he found out that his parents had been invited into the Court but refused. However, they were never considered a threat and the mugging was still a simple accident.
I also doubt Hush will appear. While there was a whole story arc in the comics that involved the Waynes, the Cobblepots and the Elliots, it seems Telltale has decided to incorporate Hush's backstory in their adaptation of the Penguin - meaning that introducing yet another "childhood friend who turns out to be evil" would be redundant.
forgot about that its been a while since I read comics lol anyway who do you think is behind the wayne conspiracy?
You mean the Zellerbachs? Yeah I suspect them two.
Also someone placed the rose there to frame Falcone for the killing.
"Old Familes like ours should flock together..........like birds."
I'm not sure. Right now the only suspects I have would be a split personality-affected Harvey (more specifically, his "evil side", which does things his "good side" can't remember) Oz (though he doesn't seem to be working for Falcone and therefore is unlikely to have been the one ordering the dock operation), or the Waynes' friends (who are simply super-shifty and might as well be part of the Court). But it could also be someone we haven't met yet.
Haven't read other theories yet, this is my thoughts.
especially after seeing the rose. Calling card or not, it doesn't catch me. Also the way all the blame is pointing at him make me more sure.
It's too easy, I'm sure he'll be guilty about something but it ain't the mayor robbery, the hired thugs or the warehouse.
Ozzie is one of few suspects I can think of but also hoping for a potential redemption plot.
joker came to mind when i heard about the toxins
later Dr Strange? Or Savage? Forgot his name, lol
When thinking about the Asylum is also a potential suspect.
I have a theory, based on the cover image for Episode 3 (I think) -- in which Oswald Cobblepot is looking highly successful while standing in front of Wayne Tower -- that The Penguin (who is actually extremely jealous of his old "friend") somehow acquires all of Bruce's assets, while the Wayne family is disgraced, and Bruce is thrown into Arkham, framed for some sort of crime.
Although this theory is based on a single snapshot, so don't hold me to it. lol
I enjoy the discussion. You have all valid points and I'm curious how this is going to play out.
I would like to gather some ideas of other posters about the gas:
Though the explanation with Bane is very good, I think because of the other plot points it must either be connected to Arkham Asylum (Hugo Stange / Scarecrow) or Oz and his "Anarchy" arc.
But maybe it's better to first list the main players:
So .. I see it like this ... The Court of Owls + Mayor Hill + Arkham Asylum Faction vs. Falcone + other crime families vs. DA Harvey Dent + Batman vs. Oz. The Waynes were possibly caught between the Court of Owls and Falcone. Both wanted to have them join their sides. I suspect Oz wants the total revolution and is therefore against everyone. Catwoman is just a freelancer, who is in a sticky situation with her bosses. I suspect the Court of Owls. The Arkham Asylum Faction might be independent as well, but I expect the court of owls being involved somehow.
Personally I don't want Oz to be the main bad guy. He's just a bit too boring for me. I find it a bit odd to take his name and then make him into Anarchy, instead of the Penguin. He would have to step up his game a lot and make some very smart moves to get my attention. That's why in my first post I expected him to be a small villain. I find focusing on the Court of Owls and the old crime families is more interesting. Throw in Arkham Asylum somehow and tell a nice story without the "freaks". Keep them for Season 2 or later.
There is no doubt in my mind that the nerve gas was Scarecrow's. I actually don't think the Joker will appear, at least this season. He is receiving too much attention lately, between the Arkham games and Suicide Squad - and TTG is probably smart enough to know people won't be very excited if he shows up in their game too. I also don't think Bane will appear - he is a character very strongly tied to a later time in Batman's myth, when he has become a sensation, a figure of legends that Bane can take down. Even Arkham Origins had Bane show up because Batman had become so famous (or infamous), it caught his attention. That simply isn't the case for TTG's Batman, who has literally just started his vigilante career.
As an avid Batman reader, I can tell you like, 100%, that Oz will be a huge character in the game - and he is probably going to be the one to come out on top by the end of the season. Like countless "origins" Batman stories (Year One, Long Halloween, the Gotham TV series), this game is quite obviously going for the whole "start of madness" theme: aka the city's transition from mob empire to playground for costumed madmen. Oz is, like in Gotham, the harbinger of this change -- canonically, in the comics, he is the one to send Falcone in exile and take over.
He's also absolutely nothing like Anarky. Anarky is someone who employs drastic measures to end Gotham's corruption. His goal is the freedom of the people. TTG Penguin's goal is old-fashioned revenge, and lust for power. He is someone who used to be part of the elite but ended up in the gutter, with the rest of the rejects -- the street thugs, the low-class felons, the criminally insane at Arhkam -- and now he wants to ruin that elite who banished him, and take the rejects to the top. If anything, his motivations are more akin to a more morally ambiguous Hush: a childhood friend of Bruce's who is deeply envious of those who rule Gotham, and wants to take their place. The only difference being that while Hush had no motivation besides a sense of entitlement instilled in him by his parents, Oz is someone who has legitimately lost everything to Gotham's overlords, and was forced onto a life of misery and crime.
So yeah, Oz is going to be huge, in my opinion, and so are the Arkham people. I'm still rooting for the Court of Owls to show up, though. They are such an underused villain in other medias. They have barely appeared in the Gotham TV series and tbh with it being mediocre at best, not a lot of people watch it.
I think joker will be mentioned at the end of the final episode ala the ending of batman begins which would be a great way to hype up season 2
Thank you for your input about Oz. I just find him not appealing at all and therefore "hope" that he'll just be small fries. He just seems boring to me. He reminds me a bit of the Joker in the Nolan series, but much less interesting. But you're probably right. So in the case that he turns out to be a major player, I do hope that he's well written and has some good dialogue and motives etc. Meeting him in the game I just thought ... yack, frack off and make room for the more interesting people.
@Anarky
You can tell that I don't know the Batman Universe very well. Seeing this fellow in one of the Arkham games for the first time, I didn't really get him. He seemed to be a crazy revolutionary fighting the society. And Oz made the same impression to me, since they seem to have changed quite about his character. I always saw the Penguin as a crazy old misformed mobster. The version from Gotham is quite interesting and kind of feeds into this trope. He isn't a childhood friend there and seems just different, than in the TTG version.
@Scarecrow
So will Scarecrow be a doctor at Arkham Asylum or something? Is he going to work with the Court of Owls or Oz or is he independent? I don't think that a mental clinic is involved with Falcone or other mobsters.
I was honestly a bit more unnerved by the fact that they reworked Oz into a Hush expy -- I would have much rather preferred if they had used Thomas Elliot directly, but he's kind of a less-known villain, and TTG probably wanted something a bit more recognizable.
No, you were right on the money regarding Anarky and TTG Oz having a similar plan (revolution); the only difference is in the motive and goals behind that plan, honestly.
If I had to take a guess? Scarecrow is probably a doctor at Arkham. It's definitely too early to say on whose side the loonies are, but I'm willing to bet they're going to be on Oz's, once shit hits the fan. The Court and Falcone are taken out by Batman, Oz fills in the power vacuum, and his little army of crazies inherits Gotham, setting up the conflict for season 2.
Great thread! I've seen loads of good thoughts. Most likely one of them is correct. Here's my thought though. We haven't met a TT created character yet. Not sure we will,since we didn't inTWAU, but if we do there's your big baddie. Since this seems to happen early in the Bats adventure there is room to do so while incorperating classic and newer foes on the way to his/her/its reveal. TT's at its best when creating characters, you expect me to believe they haven't got an orginal charcter in mind for this? Let's just say....I doubt they don't. Not saying they'll get to put it in the game but...
I would love the end of the season to be stopping the red hood gang and the red hood falls in some chemicals.
Telltale actually created (well, more accurately borrowed from fairy tales and such) some characters in TWAU. For example Dee/Dum, Gren, Holly, Nerissa, Bloody Mary, I could go on...
That sounds like a very likely outcome indeed. Wise words, SaltyTom. Like this they could build up slowly from normal villains (mobsters and such) to super duper freaks. The end of Season 2 could forshadow the Joker for example or if they have to stay away from the movie adaptions they could go for the riddler or someone like that. I could enjoy a season about the riddler. He could team up with some "monster of the episode" villains in order to complete a master plan/riddle.
I'm not sure, if they have the liberty to do that. Maybe.
Yes, they had good characters in the walking dead for example. I'm rather sure that they were their own. Coming up with a new bad guy or girl could be interesting. However, it could also be disappointing like in Gotham (for me personally). I didn't like the made up character there. What was her name? Fish Moonie??? Anyway, I didn't really see what made her special/interesting or even fish like.
just thought of something, with the Court of Owls references and the revelation that the Waynes were (and possibly continue to be) involved in mob activity, it's not out of the question that Thomas Wayne Jr. aka owlman exists in this universe and is secretly operating the Wayne criminal enterprise from behind the scenes. And with Hill and Harvey presumably being taken out of the picture soon, it would leave the position of mayor open for Thomas' public persona, Lincoln March, to run for.
One of theories crossed to my mind which basically was... The Penguin becomes the Joker.
I know, it's silly and very unlikely but damn...
If background of the episode 5 is to be taken literally that the almost entire city is in flames, who would be enough crazy to do that? There is really only one who would burn a city just a sake of burning the city, the Joker.
Interesting thought.
I have always seen Bruce's parents as some kind of perfect entities. Maybe that's because we usually get our info about them from child Bruce, who is probably quite biased. But also Alfred says in kind of every universe how awesome they were. So I kind of doubt that Thomas ... wait a second. Junior? Are you saying that Bruce has a brother or something? I've never heard about that. Is this a multiverse thing?
I think many people (mainly me) would be super confused, if TTG did that. I would then ask, if they couldn't at least have given him a hot sister. Is that a sexist thing to say? It probably is .... get over it, America. :P
Anyway ... what about you guys? Would you like to see Bruce suddenly have a brother or sister?
It doesn't necessarily have to be Oz who actively burns down the city. It could also be the unextinguishable fire mentioned in the news that just gets out of control. Or it could be an accident or someone else.
But yes, Oz might be a good candidate. Revolution often comes with fire. And yes, except for not being funny, he seems a bit jokerish, if you think of the Nolan movie. But I don't think people would like him to kind of be like the joker. It's just weird to take a known villain and then change him to something else and then make him into the joker.
it is kind of multiverse but in the court of owls arc in the comics thomas wayne jr. went by the public persona of lincoln march to hide his true identity as bruce waynes estranged brother, he was a member of the court meant to be the mayor but the court betrayed him and he killed them, whether he really was a wayne was actually up in the air but the story surrounding him about Martha visiting him in the orphanage when he was young kinda fits, hope this made sense lol
Well i'm surprised no one suggested it so far but..........I think Scarecrow is involved somehow. I have a few arguments as to why:
1) Scarecrow has constantly been interpreted as having worked with Falcone at some point in his life.
2) The toxin released by the chemicals causes people to turn violent and attack one another. This reminds me of how fear gas is interpreted as turning some people psychotic and violent while under its influence.
3) Crane is sometimes shown as a doctor at Arkham Asylum prior to his crime spree. Arkham in the game is repeatedly mentioned to drive more people insane than actually provide any mental care. This is despite the fact that no "traditional' Batman villains exist yet in this universe beside mob families. It's possible that Crane is a doctor working in the Asylum using his toxin on patients.
It could be possible that Oswald's 'revolution' could have sought Crane as an ally or perhaps that Crane is planning something on his own. If my 3rd theory is to be followed it could be possible that, knowing the Asylum might soon close down, Crane cut his loses and destroyed any evidence of dealing with Falcone (Possibly under an alias to keep him from blackmailing him). Batman could figure out a connection with the missing toxin and the Asylum and discover Crane conducting his experiments in the very next episode.
..........hello?.......no comment?
good points I do think we will run into doctor crane this season and he might partner up with oz or be working with the court this whole time