What if Carlos had Kenny's character arc?
Firstly I want to clarify that I'm not saying this would be better, I just thought it was a cool idea to talk about.
The things Kenny did in S2 seemed in line with Carlos' character. There's quite a bit of dialogue hinting towards Carlos having a bad temper and a dangerous side to him. Usually Carlos getting mad and Luke trying to calm him down.
Sarah: "You're not gonna hurt anyone are you?"
Luke: "Your dads the nicest man I know, which is why he's not gonna do anything crazy, or not nice... right?"
This dialogue always seemed to be a hint towards Carlos being angry or dangerous in the past and the cabin group trying to hide this side of Carlos from Sarah.
Then there's Carlos' rivalry with Carver. He seemed to have more of a grudge against Carver than anyone and Carver clearly had issues with Carlos as well. Carlos was really defiant of Carver in EP2 but in EP3 he seemed really timid, I was really disappointed by this as I was looking forward to seeing their rivalry develop.
So back to Carlos having Kenny's character arc. I can really see Carver beating Carlos and taking out his eye. And then Carlos losing his shit and beating Carver to death. Then Sarah would become afraid of Carlos and try to avoid him. Sarah would still die but under different circumstances as her original death happened because Carlos died. So now Sarah's dead and now we really see the Carlos that had been hinted at. Then we begin to see a Carlos and Luke rivalry as Carlos starts getting worse and Luke being the good guy just naturally butts heads with him.
This would work especially well when Luke dies. They may have had issues but they were from the same group and had been through a lot together. Carlos loses his shit again and beats Arvo, blaming him for Luke's death.
So I'm sure you can guess how it'd go from there. This is all just my opinion and thought it was a cool idea. What do you think? Do you agree with anything I said?
Comments
Would've been a lot better and made more sense than bringing back a character who had a good death in the first season.
This was a comment I recall seeing while digging through some older topics. Yes, I do believe Kenny took a quite few roles and scenes that were probably meant for other characters but especially Carlos. Not sure it would've gotten as far as it did, though it could just be that the fan/character-lover in me kinda doesn't like the thought of poor Sarah getting Sarita'd for Carlos's development, but that may have also given Clementine's friendship with her the focus it deserved and thus, given her struggle to keep Carlos under control that much more of an impact.
It would have been kinda poetic given the similarities between Sarah and Arvo, continued those themes about forgiveness/revenge, survivor's guilt, and loss of idealism that the earlier episodes seemed to be building up, as well having that "rivalry" she had with Jane get more of a proper payoff with actual consequences.
Also, it reminds me that Sarah and Sarita are technically the same name.
If you give Kenny and Sarita's role to Carlos and Sarah for pretty much everything in episode 3 it makes sense.
I agree. This was actually a theory I had awhile back. Everything fits into this pretty perfectly and there aren't any holes as far as I can tell. Carlos likely would've also birthed AJ, considering he had medical training.
I thought you meant the last sentence as Carlos giving birth.
Just my opinion but wouldn't it basically be Kenny's arc but just with a lesser character in the role? They needed something different for Carlos. I just can't see him being in Kenny's role. I remember thinking he was gonna be the brains of the operation but that didn't really work out either. Anyway, if he did ever clash with Luke, I think he would have probably defeated him.
I know I commented that I don't think it would've necessarily been one-to-one what we got, but I have to ask you to explain this. How is Carlos (a doctor) delivering AJ not probable?
You had me up until this part--how?
I got the feeling that Carlos WAS just an innocent doctor at one point, but the moment he saw Sarah in danger and about to be forced to confront the real world through the conflict with Carver, was when he snapped and he went WAY overboard in sheltering her and I imagine it was both him and Alvin who did most of the murdering when the group was escaping. I feel like the Kenny arc with Carlos would be better whilst having a recovery arc for Kenny (maybe having him try to deal with something like PTSD, and even sadder scenes like he sees Clementine and could panic because Clementine represents a lot of turmoil and issues they had to deal with, such as trying to save her from walkers and The Stranger, Lee being bitten and the blood on her hat, etc.), with Clementine trying to help him (maybe even having to make tough choices knowing that if she does one thing it could send Kenny into some sort of panic, though making that choice could be easier than trying to go around it), through it after the events of Season One.
That's exactly what I meant.
Oh okay. I thought you meant from an in universe perspective. That would still give Clementine a story arc, but still.
This is an example of what sort of thing would've been for the best.
Would've been better for Carlos's character. His death literally meant nothing as it did not benefit Sarah's character at all. I prefer this than having Kenny back tbh.
I wouldn't say it meant nothing: unlike Sarah herself, Carlos's death had an actual effect on the characters, but immediately and in the next episode. And while benefit in the positive sense isn't what it did for Sarah, it was the final push to her trauma that set up her breakdown and the aftermath of it for the next episode. His death also meant that Rebecca didn't have her doctor handy to deliver her baby, leading to Jane starting the conflict with the Russians, Luke getting his character development, and Kenny actually contributing the established plot watching over Rebecca.
I never said his death never effected Sarah. It meant nothing because she ended up dying anyways, in the dumbest way possible might I add. Rebecca's birth was still successful, as if he was never needed. The conflict between Jane and the Russians would've happened regardless because of the medicine Arvo had. Jane would've still robbed him with or without Carlos there. I also don't see how Carlos dying had ANY effect on Luke getting character development.
Well, that's the nihilism aspect of it sinking in and causing problems. And Sarah dying the way she did is an unforgivable decision from a storytelling standpoint. Why introduce this character with this pretty obvious set-up for interaction and development going forward if you weren't gonna properly conclude her story arc and her death was gonna do nothing for the protagonist or the plot itself besides kill her off?
To be fair, I'm pretty sure you can have a baby without having a doctor present, it's just that his expertise would make the process a lot more easier. But I sorta get your point.
Maybe, not necessarily. This is where cause and effect really kicks in: much like with Sarah's death, Jane's decision to rob Arvo was kickstarted for the long term by a single event or action and that happens to be Carlos's death. Her main justification towards Clementine for robbing him was that Rebecca was in no shape to move too far due to the pain. The lack of anyone with experience on the subject meant that they had no other way of dealing with the problem and Arvo showing up with his stash was convenient for them. Yes, Kenny and Luke were also injured and she may still want to take the medicine for their sake, but the presence of Carlos is an undeniable factor in dealing with that as well and it's one of those things where having one variable you don't have could potentially make a big difference.
Okay, admittedly this is a stretch on the whole cause and effect thing in that Carlos's death was supposed to cause a panic in the whole group while in the middle of the herd, hence why everyone can be seen fighting walkers even though Sarah and later Bonnie were the only ones shown drawing attention to themselves. Sarah charging through the herd to get as far away from that stress caused Luke and Nick to run after her, with Nick also catching a bullet in the shoulder but managing to ignore it for the sake of moving on. When Clementine and Jane arrive at the trailer park and fight their way into it, they learn that Sarah ran through the woods for a long while before making a beeline for the one mobile home and just huddled in a small room, which caused Nick to make a run for it to look for help before getting chomped in the neck and eventually turning after getting stuck on a torn fence. While I know everyone doesn't like the way this was handled because of how it completely wasted Nick as a character and cruelly disrespected his fans, his death contributes to the plot by tying into Jane's methods about being able to do whatever it takes for the sake of survival, including putting down your friends.
Whether he died at the Ski Lodge or at the trailer park, Nick becomes another note on Luke's resume as someone else he couldn't help alongside Pete, Alvin, Carlos, and Sarah(regardless of your choice in the trailer). This eventually leads to the scenario where Luke starts feeling like he's a coward and a failure, so Jane, possibly out of genuine sympathy for someone's problems, makes him that offer when he comes to check up on her progress while he's out on patrol. This means he isn't around to notice the herd approaching, which finally leads to the defense of observation deck and Sarah's "canon" death. When Kenny gets on his case about his negligence, Luke angrily defends that he just wanted some time away from everything else and seems more focused on the fact that Jane left him high and dry, which is a stark contrast to his earlier portrayal throughout the rest of the story. While there may be a small chance that this might just be more of a happy coincidence than an intentional choice, this outburst seemed to be reinforcing Walter's outraged declarations in the second episode: People like Matthew ( and by extension Reggie, Sarita, and Sarah) don't have a place in the world anymore and that it was actually Luke, not Nick, who was "just like everyone else," with everyone else being people like Carver and Jane. While Kenny does talk some sense into him and he gets much better after the fade to black, this and his survivor's guilt in the next episode seemed to be saying the point of Luke's character was that for all his attempts to be this ideal paragon, he's a normal human being with inherent flaws that hold him back from living up to this image. In other words, a deconstruction of the hero complex.
Sorry for the lecture. A bad habit of mine.
Carlos would have replaced Kenny perfectly. Not in the "CLEM YOU THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THIS WORLD AFTER THIS STUPID AJ PLOT DEVICE I'M GUNNA KILL SO MANY THINGS IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOU LOVE ME CLEEEEEEEM" part, but in the role of the "Reckles guy" of the group. And it would be even better if we had Sarah to die in E3 at the hands of Carver. Don't get me wrong, I love Sarah, but it would be a great character development for her, specially if she sacrifices her life, like Carver is about to kill or hurt Clem as a punishment for stealing the Walkie and Sarah says that she was the one to take it, and Carver kills her (even if he doesn't really believe her, he would kill her for, idk, having feelings and other "weak" stuff)... also, she should had left a deep mark in Clementine, like teaching her something about the beauty of innocence and other non-PTSD stuff (I want to imagine people woud respect her more and call her a "hero" instead of a "stupid useless kid")... I can imagine Carlos hating Clem after that, like "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN YOU!", but the group still needign him, since he's the "doctor" (yeaaaaaaaah, sure)... and all E4 would be the same, with Carlos taking care of AJ (and Rebecca probably not dying) and all that stuff. Luke could take Kenny's place in Clem's new "guardian", and I actually think it would be better.
(Now... fanfiction... needs me... I... Must... resist... AAAAGHHGRRR)
But then if it were Carlos having an actual character arc, Kenny couldn't have had his half-assed arc and there wouldn't have been a scene of him sniffing AJ like a fucking creep.
Thanks, Kenny!
Oh....
But what would happen to Kenny? Unless we're supposed to assume he never showed up.
I just have one question if this was to happen; how would you ensure that the player actually likes Carlos? That they will actually sympathize with and understand his character? That such a character arc would be effective for him, and not just something a majority of people would write off as boring, pointless, or a chore to trudge through until they finally get the option to kill him at the end (which funnily enough, some people already felt like with Kenny in S2)?
You see, I think part of the reason why Kenny's arc works is because people know who he is, and have history with him. We've seen multiple sides of him over the course of this series. People have formed an attachment to him over the years. Now we see him starting to seemingly descend into madness. Makes the situation more difficult to assess, and for quite a lot of people, makes the final choice all the more difficult. Not to mention that his ties to S1 and by extension, Lee, make it even harder for some people to let go of Kenny as a character. He's one of the last tethers to the past.
But what incentive would people have to understand and empathize with Carlos in place of Kenny? He's relatively forgettable when he's first introduced, if not coming across as a bit of an asshole. So if his character arc consists of, at a super basic level, him becoming an even bigger asshole, what is going to hook people and get them interested in his story?
I feel this arc works for Kenny since we're already familiar with him. It makes him slowly going nuts in S2 a more grey area, if you ask me. It would make sense for Carlos, sure... but would the audience ultimately give enough of a shit for it to be worth it?
I'm trying to think about this at a more broad scale. I can agree, Carlos could fit into the character arc Kenny goes through quite well, but the problem is, even if it makes for good writing, would that be enough to make people care about him, or even really acknowledge the depth to his character? I mean, look at Lilly. We can argue that Lilly was a well-written character, but look how many people write her off as a bitch because she was mean and killed Carley. Despite the depth to her story and character, there's a lot of people that don't seem to give much of a shit about it because of what she did. So would Carlos even stand a chance?
.
Wut?
Exactly that.
I think the only problem is, unlike Kenny we dont have a history with Carlos. Im pretty sure theres not alot of people who went "God damn, Carlos is such a great character!"
If Carlos went crazy, Im sure no one would care, or try to help him, atleast the player. Why should we care about Carlos? He never really did that much for us, we dont really know him. Its kinda hard to get any type of emotion if Carlos went crazy except, "Wow, fuck you Carlos."
Only two things that wouldn't work well if Carlos was supposed to be in Kenny's place in season 2.
He would NEVER forgive Clem for letting Sarah die, so if it was a Jane vs Carlos ending, I could see a 95% margin killing Carlos and going with Jane and it all being pretty one-sided. (Assuming it went down the same way as with Kenny vs Jane)
They would really need to make you care about Carlos before Ep 4 and I don't see how they could have easily done that. I never really cared for him even after he died...I cared more about Sarah and Rebecca dying then him.
That's the risk you take as a writer and creator. Pretty much every character besides Clementine and maybe characters like Michelle and Matthew were created with a story to be told with the goal of getting the players invested enough to want to see it through to the end and at least have a reaction, whether it be positive or negative. Whether you love their flaws or hate their strengths, that's your choice as an individual consumer and what drives you to interpret them as one thing or another. Part of the reason characters like Kenny and Sarah are so mixed is because their interaction towards the player character changes based on their choices. Characters who received a certain type of feedback got their portrayals in later episodes affected by it. Some examples include a disliked character being given a positive portrayal: Duck was given an amusing yet useful part in investigating the lost supplies after his hyper nature caused trouble, Ben was given a redemption arc after failing to convince Lee to sacrifice him for the group's safety out of guilt, Christa was given a subtle arc that helped to explain her questioning nature, Rebecca apologizes for being such a bitch to Clementine and Alvin, and Nick got his initial actions explained through his backstory. Other examples appeal to the disliked nature of said character for catharsis sake: Kenny's selfish attitude can be called out by pointing out his hypocrisy, Lily can be sided against alongside Kenny due to her strict leadership, Larry can be tricked into eating Mark's barbecued leg for his antagonism, Carlos can be sassed about his leadership skills with Luke also joining in, and Sarah can be told to grow up when Carlos is taking away by Troy and Vera. So while the reaction to any character may be positive, negative, or mixed, it's just an experimental reaction to what you made as a creator. Whether your intentions for a particular character succeeds or not, it's your duty as the writer to tell their story to the best of your ability and just hope for the best.
I thought about this. The only problem being that you'd have to try and get players attached to him. I think it could've been done though. They would have had to make some scenes in EP2 with him and Clementine. But I do agree that it works better with Kenny.
They could've replaced Kenny with Carlos, sure, but they wouldn't have been able to create the same attachment many feel for Kenny, the only living character from the original group in season 1(besides Clem and maybe, Christa), as apposed to Carlos, the apparent 'doctor' we have no reason to give a shit about and have only known for about five minutes.
@Those who question liking Carlos because I'm too lazy to pick you out
That's the writers job leading up to Episode 4.
Something Season 1 had down pat was that pretty much every character with more than two minutes of screentime were given positive traits as well as negative traits, even if some(Kenny, Carley, Doug) were more obvious or balanced than others(Larry, Lilly, Ben). I would imagine Carlos would be another Lilly situation: he comes off as a bit too strict and even critical at times, but taking the time to speak with him as the story progress would reveal that he is actually a very thoughtful person whose just under a lot of stress due to his fears and pressures getting the better of him. Their friendship with Sarah could also cause them to concern themselves with him at times and thus want to get him to like you for her sake. So, when things start getting tense and Carlos starts losing it, people could be compelled to want to help him through this tense time because they had seen plenty of indications that he is a good person.
Carlos in the final game does actually have something resembling an arc, but similar to Luke and Alvin, his character isn't really given much time to be properly explained and thus his lack of immediate redeeming qualities causes most people to deride him despite his not being a bad person.
There'd be a lot of dead Carlos endings, that's for sure. We had history with Kenny and a lot fans cherished that, but replacing that with Carlos losing his shit at Clementine over Sarah and then AJ (2 characters that some people don't really care for) would make him completely unlikable. It would make for a weaker climax, I think.
Still one user spreading his fucking negativity once again about a certain character i see. Yet no one else here is. Thank you to all that aren't being like that simply because what that said person doing is totally unnecessary in this or any thread to be honest.
Anyway good thread, not seen this discussed before
You always have something to say XD I find it funny.
I would have preferred that both Carlos and Sarah have lived instead, and have Telltale explore their relationship in full.
Sarah dying for Carlos' development would have been rather unoriginal and underwhelming after Carlos' poor reception from the fandom, especially when he would probably end up being perceived as Kenny 2.0 due to similar circumstances. And we all saw how Carlos dying for Sarah's developed amounted to absolutely nothing since she ends up being killed off the next episode anyways.
Who said I'm funny?
I find your comment very offensive to humor.
I need more of this in my life.
Mind-blowing. Holy cow, get a fan-fiction done. I need this.
The player's attachment and sympathy toward Carlos would not be an issue to be concerned with, because he would be established as a main character with redeeming qualities, complex personality and rich backstory during the first, second and half of the third episode. His protectiveness over the rest of the cabin group would be key, along with his reasoning over sheltering her daughter suffering of anxiety.
My only concern is that people would perceive him as Kenny 2.0, since Kenny had a similar character arc twice, and giving the second one to Carlos would still be having a similar character arc twice.
You raise a good point, but even if the writing for Carlos had been better, ya know, instead of him being the most forgettable character in gaming, him having Kenny's arc still wouldn't of been able to create the same emotion that can be seen with watching Kenny descend into instability, especially for those that had been on good terms with him in season 1. Hell, even for the people that activity hate Kenny would have far more reason to do so then that of Carlos, due to Kenny's actions in season 1 and by the run up to the final choice, a lot would've been delighted to finally have the choice to kill him, unlike if it had been Carlos, which probably would've just received a 'meh' whether he lived or died. Carlos' reasons for being so unstable wouldn't have been as understandable then that of Kenny's, where we see how he was before and after his family's deaths, and if they'd had Carlos tell us of his possible tragic backstory, it wouldn't have left much of an impact opposed to actually seeing Kenny's. With Kenny, an emotional response, whether positive or negative, is received from the player, but with Carlos, that just wouldn't be there, as it would be relied heavily on minor dialogue to explain his actions, whilst Kenny's behaviour can be linked back to what was seen happen in S1.
I, personally, didn't care for Sarah's character (and a lot of characters from season 2's cast), so I'd have no reason to care about her daddy or building a relationship with him for her sake. If Carlos had basically been 'Kenny'd', I can't imagine anyone putting up with his shit, because unlike with Ken, we don't have as much reason to care for him, nor should we. His daughter's annoying and he's an overly protective asshole, who may very well have good intentions, but because of his sheltering, Sarah's doomed to survive in the world. That's enough reason to dislike him, but add on a scene of him blaming Clementine for Sarah's death and behaving like Kenny, there'd be very few who'd stand by him. With Kenny turning on us like that in the scene made it more tragic because this was someone who'd we'd had history with, who'd we optionally had seen be best friends with Lee and may have been trying to build a relationship with, but if it were Carlos, well, to be blunt, why give a shit? Okay, he dislikes you, but you wouldn't have as strong a motive to try and repair that relationship, and even if you were trying to be on good terms with him for Sarah's sake, she'd now be dead, so creating even less reasons to put up with an already increasingly unlikable character.
I don't think it was because of his lack of immediate redeeming qualities, I think it was more due to Carlos having little to no personality. I felt, as though with Carlos and Alvin, the writers didn't have a clue what they wanted them to do, so just used them as a means to create more "shocking" death scenes without taking the effort to actually construct characters.
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Thank you! Both for commenting on the topic itself as it's own thing and for keeping the Kenny 2.0 aspect of it to a minimum.
Waaaaaaaaaat?!
Sure thing, @DabigRG! I did want to center the attention and possible replies on the second paragraph rather than the third.