What if Jane and Bonnie switched roles in Howe's?
I held off on making this thread because I know people might be getting sick of "What if?" Scenarios to address the writing of season 2, but after the "What if Carlos had Kenny's character arc?" Thread (Which I thought was a great idea) I decided, eh, I'll go for it.
I think some of the story and character dynamics would have been better executed if Bonnie and Jane merely switched roles as we meet them in episode 2 and 3. That is, we meet Jane at the ski lodge as one of Carver's guards, and we meet Bonnie as a prisoner in Howe's.
Jane as a gaurd
I'm going to start with Jane because she's the real reason I think this change was needed. I've always had a problem with season 2 culminating as a fight between Kenny and Jane, a woman who was only barely given time in episode 3 and doesn't really have a big problem with Kenny until episode 5. Even in episode 3, she was on Kenny's side more than anything, plotting with him a way to escape. In my opinion, there wasn't nearly enough animosity there to really justify their life and death fight or make the fight feel natural, even with AJ on the line.
With Jane as the first guard at the ski lodge, we not only get more time to familiar ourselves with Jane as a potentially major character, we also have the initial spark of animosity between her and Kenny. Kenny is suspicious of the woman peaking into their shelter. Jane likewise does not appreciate Kenny as he's trying to murder her and her fellow gaurds during the shootout. There is mistrust between them, and now it can build.
It also makes sense for Jane to borrow the line from Bonnie as she meets Clem, "I used to have a little girl like you." I never liked this line coming from Bonnie. We've played her character in 400 days, we know it's not true, and it seems like a frivolous thing to lie about. Coming from Jane however, it becomes an important piece of foreshadowing.
Something I see people getting annoyed over is Jane's sudden repetitive fixation on Jaime in episode 4 when it was never previously hinted at. If she were to say "I used to have a little girl like you" upon meeting Clem, we may be suspicious of her claim but still have it in our mind throughout the game that she may have had a little girl in her past, so when she does bring Jaime up it doesn't seem so jarring. It also subtly reinforces the idea that she might see Clem as a replacement for her sister, if she immediately associated Clementine with her.
Another benefit of having her at the ski lodge would have been her intimate experience with the Cabin Group. As it is Jane floats between apathy and reluctant sympathy with the group, making it frustrating to watch as she barely knows or cares about them and abandons them one minute, and then threatens a kid and murders a stranger for them the next. This back and forth makes her character difficult to define, especially in her motivations. If she were in the ski lodge as Carver is torturing Carlos in front of Sarah, or as Carver murders Alvin in front of Rebecca, she would have a bit more of an explanation for her sympathetic moments towards the Cabin Group members outside of Clementine. She knows the extent of their suffering, so her heart is slightly softer to them. Something as small as a anguished look at Sarah as Carlos is being tortured would establish that she both feels for Sarah while at the same time pitying her, which would make her eventual giving up on her at the trailer park or deck more heartbreaking. It would also make it much harder for her to decide to leave AJ alone in a car, after seeing what his mother and father had been through and knowing she's potentially endangering their child. In short, her actions would still be the same, but it would be more emotional because these actions were a result of an absolute conviction in her rationale and not because she didn't have any stakes within the Cabin group's survival.
But why would Jane ever be one of Carver's guards? As we somewhat learn in episode 3, Jane had been gaining favor with Troy to get out of the pen. To make it fit the story and her character, she would have been initially in prison, then work her way up the ranks as she gained trust with troy and then Carver to eventually be a gaurd. She then has a gun and access to other resources she could pack for herself and then make a break for it when she wanted to, which would have been during a horde. So she is never truly loyal to Carver.
At Howe's, she may slowly gain Clem's trust (perhaps begrudgingly giving her the ski jacket to keep her warm although she knows leather is better). She might vocalize her struggle in wanting to escape alone and wanting to help the others escape Carver's tyranny. It isn't until Kenny is bashed in the eye that she decides to help them (which adds irony to their fight in the finale).
This would also help when she decides to compare Kenny to Carver. As it is, she probably only knew Carver as the guy that gave her work assignments, and the guy who bashed Kenny in the eye. However, being a gaurd for him and witnessing what he did at the ski lodge may give more credibility to her claim because she knows Carver much better, and therefore has a very serious fear of Kenny becoming like Carver. And Kenny would still harbour distrust with her for being Carver's gaurd. Therefore they have mutual distrust brewed by Carver and it can grow into a much more satisfying conclusion during the fight, as it would have been a build up of animosity over the course of 4 episodes, compared to 1 and would also tie in Carver's relavence more closely to the final episode.
Her being a gaurd at Howe's also gives more depth to her decision to go to Howe's in the ending. Before it was only because they had baby supplies and food. Now it makes slightly more sense because a gaurd would probably know more about the supplies than a prisoner, and two it can raise implications that she may have gotten used to Howe's. Her disgust at Carver's body would have carried more weight.
Bonnie as a prisoner
I have less points about Bonnie, but still a few worth mentioning. Her being a prisoner would help reconcile her actions and the determinate presence of the 400 days characters. During 400 days it can be assumed she established some sort of relationship between the other survivors. So unless she had broken those relationships with them or knew they would definitely not want to leave Howe's or would sell her out, her leaving the 400 days characters, especially Shel and Becca, behind as she escapes seems a little strange to me (but then again that was never addressed in the first place because the 400 days involvement is so minimal). If she's a prisoner, it's easier to say she was alienated from the others and wouldn't be able to coordinate an escape with them even if she wanted to.
Being in prison also gives an understandable amount of time to have established a pre-existing relationship between her and Mike as fellow prisoners. That may foreshadow more successfully that she would leave with Mike if push came to shove, clearing up her motivations to leave Clementine and Aj behind.
It could be explained that she's in prison because she tried to leave when Luke and the Cabin Group escaped the first time, but was caught like Reggie. However, upon the Cabin Group's arrival, she is still on board with their plans to escape unlike Reggie because of her implied devotion to Luke. This sort of reckless devotion might make it more understandable why she would go out on the ice to risk both of their lives to save him. She needs validation with men she knows as hinted at with Leland in 400 days, and this strengthens that. Her being mad at Clementine for Luke's death would be more of the result of losing a figure of devotion and validation, and because she already established a bond with Mike, she more easily turns to him after Luke is gone.
Her being in prison might also make her seeming closeness with the group more tangible. As I played the game, sometimes I even forgot they knew each other before Clementine showed up. Seeing them interact naturally as they discuss escape plans around the prison campfire might have made that mental connection clearer and likewise her betrayal of the group (or AJ, I guess) more impactful.
I know this doesn't solve all problems, and there would be some interesting existing implications and explanations lost this way (like Bonnie's original rationale to leave the group, because I she thought it was easier to fix something broken than start over) but I think that especially the final fight would have needed this for a better buildup and resolution. What do you think?
Comments
This does answer a few weird qualities about Jane and Bonnie's character arcs.
To be honest, when I saw the title of this topic, I thought you meant a complete switch, Jane running of with Mike and Arvo after Luke's death(understandable) and Bonnie fighting Kenny for Clementine's sake(not as understandable, but ok.) In which case, we'd probably need that unused model of her zombiebonnie dug up to fit the role a little better.
True, but that was nothing that was ever mentioned or expanded on before or ever again. So it doesn't really contribute anything to her character. In 400 days the biggest trouble we know in her story is her struggle with drugs, and she notes that Kenny is the only one that really knows what to do for birthing a baby, so I assume Bonnie herself was not a mother. She might have had a sister or something but I like I said, it was never brought up in game.
Edit: sorry for all the edits, my phone lines to autocorrect or to our
Yes, it does matter, because the main point I'm trying to make is that, lie or not, the line is not as well-served with Bonnie as it is with Jane because nothing about a little girl ever comes up with Bonnie again.
A lot of people I've seen (I've never quite made up my mind about it) believe Bonnie is lying to gain favor with Clem, and since that's never been confirmed our denied I guess that's just stick with me as a real possibility
I cannot explain how on board with this idea I am. Sign me up.
There's something I'd like to adress. You said that Jane and Bonnie would keep their respective roles in "No Going Back," and Jane would be the one who explains to Clementine and Luke that Sarah can not be pulled out of her mental state, yet Jane would hand Clementine a jacket while Bonnie is a prisoner. Can you make a quick bullet list pointing out which character does what throughout the season?
Example…
Bonnie
Jane
Good idea, I can see why this would be confusing. I wish I could edit my original post on mobile! Mostly their actions in episode 2 and 3 are switched and episode 4 and 5 are the same.
I'm on mobile right now and it's making bullet list difficult, I'll fill it in later here.
Once they escape and Jane shoots troy, everyone's actions are more or less the same except with different and clearer motivations.
So? That's the whole point. Nothing with a little girl ever comes up again so it would make better sense to apply the line to someone who will fill in the blanks with their backstory and relevant character arc. Otherwise it's just an inconsequential line.
This is such a well-thought out and original post. I can't say that this concept has ever crossed my mind before, but I really like sound of this. I did enjoy the characters of both Jane and Bonnie, but there were some aspects in which I believe they could've been handled better. This would fix some of the issues I had with them and then some. The Jane section is especially an improvement in my eyes, mainly because of the increased emotional intensity resulting from her decisions and the better build-up to the finale. Some ideas would be lost in this translation, but I feel like this may have been the better alternative. At the very least, it sounds really good on paper.
Jane would seem even more untrustworthy and I may have had a slight more sympathy for Bonnie. I hate Jane but Bonnie isn't quite as demented to go through with all this lone wolf propaganda. I'm still in the dark if she'd betray the group.
Bonnie is, by nature, a traitorous self-fulfilling person. Jane may be arguably the dumbest character in the entire game, but I get the feeling she doesn't even know what her 'code' is.
It was established from 400 Days that she is a manipulative lying wench that only serves herself so that's why she got cast the part of "piece of shit who continuously betrays trust to get a leg up" rather than Jane, who let's face it is only in the game to sloppily execute the arbitrary plot-points and inevitably duel with Dick-Scruff himself rather than Bonnie.
Interestingly, it is possible that Bonnie was an early mother before the apocalypse, and she took up drugs soon after the child's death. This would explain why she connected easily with Clementine and why she was so distressed at Rebecca's baby's apparent death, despite not being with Rebecca herself for months.
Have you say how they say that writers should know their characters more than what even makes it to paper? This could be the case, albeit I am not saying it is.
That's why Jane would've been better fitted to deliver that line—it's clear-cut, and we later learn that she had a sister. A connection all the way back to "A House Divided" would give the players the impression that Jaime wasn't pulled out of a rabbit's ass on the evelenth hour.
Bonnie doesn't really take on the "Lone Wolf" thing from Jane, I'm just switching their roles as they are in Howe's. Their personalities and actions after episode 3 are largely unchanged in this hypothetical.
But Bonnie told Clem she didn't know anything about how to deal with babies when Rebecca was in labour? I'm sure she would have mentioned that she'd been through it before if she had?
Not to mention, her most famous action in the game- leaving AJ, the baby, and an 11 year old behind when her and Mike decided to betray the group, along with their buddy, the ruskie shitbird.
If you ask me, it's safe to assume Bonnie wasn't a mother at any point in her life.
Uh, I think you got the two mixed up a bit there.
Also, why she can be seen crying a bit when Sarah dies.
I didn't mention this, though? You are confused.
No, I just put two different comments in one without thinking about it. Sorry.
Now that you mention it, she could've been talking about Becca.
Love this, I will headcanon that this actually happened in Season Two going forward.
Would Jane still be the one to vouch for the zombie gut strategy?
So Jane is a treacherous self-centered person because she quite idiotically tried to gauge Kenny's abusive response pattern kinda like someone who doesn't think before they act all to help a child (cause it sure wasn't to save her own skin)?
And Bonnie, the same Bonnie that lied about peering into the ski-lodge which got that group ambushed, then betrayed Carver's group, then very calculatingly worked in cahoots against a small child and infant in order to save her own skin isn't selfish?
Hmmm, interesting.
Bonnie being dumb as in naive is a better fit, while Jane being treacherous and self-fulfilling is what her little stunt with AJ basically amounts to.
While I'm sure you're probably the same person who said they were fine with Bonnie being a spy for Carver because that's how your 400 Days playthrough characterized her, Bonnie didn't exactly betray anyone unless you specifically lied to Leland so she could get with him. In-universe, Bonnie hits Dee because she has just been shot by a group of people with flashlights and she was cornered behind a tractor next to a pole in the ground with a flashlight approaching her. Killing Dee was clearly an accident, even if she decides to just roll with it for her own benefit. Also, it's kinda hard to call her wanting to join Tavia's camp and showing up at the Ski Lodge as an enforcer for Carver betraying anyone since she was just desperately looking for safety and was ignorant about what that entail being complicit in.
Jane, on the other hand, is repeatedly shown as being willing to drop any inconveniences when it suits her: Troy, Rebecca, Sarah, AJ, and Kenny were all examples of this. And while Troy may not be the nicest guy around, her tricking of Clementine and Kenny was pretty much betraying them since she was in charge of looking after the baby and yet she intentionally stored him off to the side to make them both think he died and get Kenny to flip out so Clementine will be convinced to leave him, which quickly spiraled into causing him to either kill her or get killed by Clementine just to prove the point. While she may have had some decent reasoning in a few cases(like Sarah and Kenny), she still had a habit of throwing people under the bus if it meant she could get by and was not ashamed to admit it.
Yes, because she still has the same pre-Howe's backstory
That's the very definition of selfish and it isn't the only time she decides to roll with a morally questionable decision.
Firstly, she did use Troy. But considering he'd been impliedly using her for sex and knew well aware of the break out that she had an interest in escaping from the camp and he never brought that to the attention to Carver lends me to believe he was just a post in a port-storm.
As for Rebecca, the only thing of consequence she did to show any form of vein self-preservation is suggest that her baby may stall survival and be more of a handful than what it's worth. More pragmatism than selfishness.
As well as Sarah, the only thing she did remotely questionable (depending on the stressing situation they were in) is suggest allowing Sarah an early death because of her own experiences. Not good, nor bad.
She never insinuated leaving AJ to die for her own needs. Unless you're referring to her aimless stupidity she was hit with in trying to show Clementine how shitty Kenny was as a person.
And Kenny? I'd say she tried valiantly to remain on his side, we all know how that ended. With her being a moron and him being dead.
My point is that Bonnie is far more toxic than Jane. She's more than willing to betray people who's she's been with for a large allotted timeframe just to get some Luke dick then runs like the cockroach she is when he dies because of her own carelessness.
She's almost as bad as Troy and Kenny in my opinion, and somehow is less compassionate than either of them.
Okay, cause I didn't remember Bonnie talking with the group as much during the planning phase.
Admittedly, I should've specified that that's a big IF. She can also choose to admit what she did or even claim that she did it for Leland.
With Rebecca, I was referring to her seriously considering leaving her and Clementine behind in the herd.
With Sarah, I was refering to both that AND her repeated insistence both before and after the trailer park that Clementine just give up on her. I'm willing to give her the mobile home because she was clearly suffering from some sort of claustrophia-esque flashbacks, but everything else was her being insensitive to both Clementine and Sarah--with the latter walking not ten feet behind her, even!
With AJ, I also meant when she decided to ask Rebecca "What are you gonna do with it?" in the most hilariously tactless fashion possible. Seriously, what the heck was she thinkin'?!
And I wouldn't describe her hanging wit h the group with him clearly losing it valiant considering she also tried to slowly convince Clementine to just up and abandon him to come with her. In fact, I'd argue that was her smartest strategy up until she decided to hide AJ. Because, yeah, THAT was definitely the best way to handle that: take away the crazy guy's motive for being as calm as he was so he'll officially lose it!
Wow, that's some seriously wicked Alternative Character Interpretation you got goin on there, because when I think of someone as mean as than Kenny or Troy, Bonnie isn't even in the top 15.
It was abundantly clear that Bonnie is at a point where she is desperate for any form of security and happiness she can find that she'll put up with obvious problems even if it hurts her and her's in the process(her dealer and drugs, Leland and the murderously jealous Dee, Carver and his Psychopathy). Luke was apparently the closest thing she found to an actual positive relationship (besides Mike) and she loses faith in the group when he dies and Kenny starts getting way too violent.
If you're saying that her passive personality combined with her team changing tendencies makes her more dangerous than the other assholes out there, that's one thing but talking as if she's this diabolical mastermind is a really hard pill to swallow considering her track record with character judgement.
I can agree with the fact she wants security, but she'll go to any length in order to secure it. And it is shown time in and time out.
Jane is merely an idiot that proclaims herself a survivalist most-likely to cope with her history of shitty decision making.
They're both abundantly shit characters though.
Yeah, admittedly I don't have all the details layed out in this hypothetical. It would have been doable, but it couldn't be a side-by-side play of what it is now.
Strangely, I find myself agreeing with @Everyone'sClemInTime, the biggest Kenny hater on these forums, for a second time...
The thing is, while all of that is completely understandable and doesn't make Bonnie a bad person, it's how she goes about trying to achieve those motivations that, in my opinion, make her just as bad as that bollox, Troy.
I mean, this is the same women who lied about having a child, assisted Carver with his hunt for the Cabin Group, willingly turned a blind eye to his psychotic activities and the murdering of determinedly two innocent people, and of course, left an 11 year old and a newborn without a shit load of supplies, which potentially could've led to their deaths, so she could flee with Arvo, who, days before, nearly had the entire group killed. All of that, on the other hand, does indeed make her a shitty human being.
I believe she said it to seem more sympathetic and less threatening, since based on body language and other cues Kenny and possibly Walter value Clementine's opinion of the stranger. Also, when food is a precious scarcity, who are you more likely to give it to? The random, creepy woman casing your shelter or the starved, struggling mother making a desperate supply run?
While I'm very far from a Bonnie fan, I think some of those conclusions oversimplify her motivations to make her seen as bad as troy, which she isn't.
Her staying with Carver in my opinion wasn't an approval of what he does. She was just trying to keep a broken community together, one that she believed in and gave her a new start. She was never okay with Reggie's murder a's that was what drove her to consider leaving Howe's. She wasn't okay with Walt's murder either, in fact I think that's what first instilled her doubt of Carver despite initially making excuses for him.
Also, as I've been informed, she might have not been lying about knowing a child, but that can't be confirmed either way.
The only thing I truly judge her harshly on is abandoning Clem and AJ, and also acting as if Clem is to blame for Luk's death if she covered him. Bonnie knows she had a hand in his death and she takes it out on a child. I'm not okay with that.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this.
The basis for your argument against Bonnie is completely invalid considering her interactions with Leland in 400 Days are all determined by you. It is also worth noting that killing Dee (whose identity is not revealed prior to striking the fatal blow) is not optional if you want to live and the story to progress.
I don't see Jane as dumb at all. Manipulate, yes, but she had valid points. The abruptly manufactured rivalry with Kenny and her inability to let Clementine choose her own path were where her character fell short and where I soured on her. You need to remember that the landscape of society has changed dramatically. Self-preservation is paramount. It is neither unreasonable nor unrealistic that Bonnie and Jane, or any character in a ZA for that matter, would be selfish. Rebecca and Lilly were both willing to shoot a child/teenager based on an assumption. Luke mentions that it may become necessary to "leave some folks behind". Kenny advocated for leaving Ben behind on many an occasion. Molly was reluctant to help the Savannah group. Concern for the safety/survival of oneself or one's loved ones, doesn't make a character stupid or malicious. The writers' ideas for Season 2 had merit. The execution of those ideas is what left a bit to be desired. The "betrayal" of Carver's group by Bonnie or Troy by Jane are non-arguments that need not be mentioned. I feel they largely redeemed themselves after that up until Episode 5 where everything went to hell. Bonnie and Jane are drifters; social outcasts. They're both trying to figure out where they belong and coming up short. Abandoned by Leland either way and presumably rejected by Luke, brainwashed by Carver, Bonnie has probably come to the conclusion that some allegiances are empty and temporary. Better to Sleep said it best in their recent topic. Bonnie finally started truly thinking for herself rather than seeking validation and her sense of self worth from other people. I think Jane's conundrum is a bit more complex and is based largely on denial. She wants to give up on people but a part of her still wants to belong and feel needed. She latches on to Clementine for validation.
Extra kudos for you.
Two bundles of five kudos for you! On-point post.
I'll just leave it here.
That was the girl with Shell from 400 days she was referencing her.
Becca. Yeah, I assumed that's who she meant, too. Especially since Clementine can be relatively stern in that scene.
That doesn't really make sense though, when Becca can determinate be at Carver's camp, so Bonnie wouldn't reference Becca as she "used to have" her.
She still knew her at some point, so she has someone to compare Clementine to, even if that person was needlessly cruel towards her.
Very insightful and well-thought out points. I'd still challenge a lot of them by arguing that finding consolidation in the characters' motives doesn't absolve them of their actions. If you're implying that Bonnie and Jane are both complex characters with many layers to them driving their actions and making them much more ripe for analytically derived discussions, that's fine.
I'd beg to differ, considering that the game's writing itself is far too muddied and sloppy to warrant any tangible approach to character dissection, especially in the later-half of the game. That's why my analyst tends to amount to a much more literal interpretation rather than attempting to form a study around each act. It's nearly impossible considering that the season from the start was juggling too much and never fully encapsulated any one theme properly.
However, good argument and well thought-out points.
Agreed. You seemed to feel very strongly about this subject, but Season 2's writing is the culprit for many plot holes, confusing character arcs, and general annoyances.
I don't think either Bonnie or Jane is without blame for certain events that transpired (Bonnie -Luke's death, Jane -the Russian ambush) and they are far from reliable. However, I don't think their actions warranted them being painted in a villainous light if selfishness is the argument for that conclusion. More examples would be Shel shooting her friend Stephanie to give Becca stability (determinant), Wyatt leaving Eddie to escape Nate's wrath (determinant), Russel not intervening in Nate's robbery and murder of the elderly couple, Vince shooting his fellow prisoner in the leg to escape the van, Vernon taking the boat because he knew there wasn't room enough for his group and ours, Lee leaving Lilly on the roadside (determinant), and Clementine denying the family entrance to Howe's which could possibly result in their deaths (determinant). These decisions all involve an element of selfishness, yet have sound motivations behind them. They aren't "good", moral, or even just choices, yet they make sense at least as an alternative when you consider all factors and circumstances.