Now I understand what you mean! I had gotten confused and believed you were suggesting that Lee determinantly helping Larry by performing chest compressions on him was even remotely relevant to what happened in "A New Day."
Then we probably coincide on this matter. Both of us can identify what Larry's motivations were for punching Lee and attempting to have him killed; but doing so was not justified and was immoral.
And taking into consideration that Lee had risked his own life to find the nitroglycerin pills that saved his life, Larry is an asshole for doing so. Still, we understand why Larry did it.
Are you honestly suggesting that larry's attempted murder of lee should not take into consideration the immediate service he just provided?
… more
Because that's asinine.
The fact that lee just saved his life should be a massive motivation and incredibly important to what he decides to do at that point.
It is far more relevant than lee's past to the current decision making.
Regardless of the plan that was made on the train, when the group gets to Savannah, Lee just keeps pushing off looking for Clem's parents saying "not right now" and "we don't have time". The final straw for Clem is when they get back from Crawford and Lee still says there's no time to look for them when the boat is ready.
Now at this point, Clem breaks down as she realizes that, even if her parents are still alive, she will never know because they are leaving the mainland on presumably the last boat. She actually PULLS AWAY from Lee when he tries to comfort her; I think people don't look at this enough. After all they've been through, she must have been extremely angry at Lee to not even hug him; she has always looked to Lee to comfort her when things aren't going well. Except this time he was the one who hurt her. Then Lee does what I think is the dumbest part of the game: he falls asleep. Need I remind you this is after Clem has run off multiple times already. I realize he's tired, but come on, man, at least have someone else watch her...
Anyway, Clem is sad, all hope is lost until the Stranger contacts her. What he said we don't know. I can imagine him saying something like "hey come outside, your parents are here" and she jumped up to go running into their arms. Think about it, what if this were you? What if you had one last hope to see your parents? You're telling me you wouldn't go just because this guy MIGHT be untrustworthy? Sure, I would have liked her to wake up Lee, but after what had just happened, she probably wasn't thinking straight and just wanted to see them immediately. I'd probably do the same if I was a little kid because it would be the only way I would know for sure.
All this to say, you keep blaming Clem for Lee's death. But Lee deserves a lot of the blame too. Leading her on for months only to tell her you're leaving without them. Or if you took the other route, telling her they are dead with no proof. She's not gonna believe it unless she sees it. Lee falling asleep with the walkie talkie in plain sight. Come to think of it, he probably should have just given it to someone else and tell them to wake him up if the Stranger calls in. Then when he wakes up he goes outside BY HIMSELF to look for her and is too concerned with the walkie to actually be aware of his surroundings in a zombie apocalypse.
Sorry, but in this scenario, the Stranger was pulling the strings and Clem took the bait. But neither is responsible for Lee's death. He made his own choices and Lee, only Lee, is responsible for his own death.
Lee did tell her, on the train he can say to her they're dead and that they have to move on, he also implies to her when they get back from … morecrawford, that theyre gone, which makes her cry. then she takes off when Lee is asleep and when the stranger is enticing her to come outside, that's when she should've told Lee, she said they were a team and they should work together, yet she betrays lee and goes out to listen to the stranger, rather then tell Lee first. Like i have said , The whole group chose to steal, not just Kenny, Lee and Clementine can choose not to be involved, but the rest of the group agrees, so if you want to blame people, blame the rest of the group, not just Kenny. You won't blame Clementine, because you're one of those people who gives her the benefit of the doubt because of her age and her gender.
Wheater you choose to be biased towards her it doesn't change the fact that Clementine was the one to blame, she chose to bel… [view original content]
I'm confused, how are you going to get mad at Lee for leading Clementine on, and still get mad at him for telling Clementine about her parents being dead. No, Lee is not to blame at all, the stranger is ultimately the one to blame for manipulation, and Clementine is partially to blame for listening to a stranger, that said that claimed that he had her parents without any proof and Lee trusted Clementine to be by herself, so in a sense Clementine truly did betray him,and everybody else in the group was busy, Ben could be dead, Kenny is working on the boat, Christa is tending to Omid. I think the more shocking part of your comment is how you turned this onto Lee, blindly too.
Regardless of the plan that was made on the train, when the group gets to Savannah, Lee just keeps pushing off looking for Clem's parents sa… moreying "not right now" and "we don't have time". The final straw for Clem is when they get back from Crawford and Lee still says there's no time to look for them when the boat is ready.
Now at this point, Clem breaks down as she realizes that, even if her parents are still alive, she will never know because they are leaving the mainland on presumably the last boat. She actually PULLS AWAY from Lee when he tries to comfort her; I think people don't look at this enough. After all they've been through, she must have been extremely angry at Lee to not even hug him; she has always looked to Lee to comfort her when things aren't going well. Except this time he was the one who hurt her. Then Lee does what I think is the dumbest part of the game: he falls asleep. Need I remind you this is after Clem has run off … [view original content]
And guess what? We never saw any of it, just like Christas baby timeframe skip, so he contributed nothing to the game on screen and that 8 months had no impact on the game besides leaving Clementine with grief which for some strange reason, she got over pretty quickly.
I also blamed the stranger saying it takes 2 to tango, but the thing is that Clementine's choice to go out and believe him was the big one. He tries to lure her out, she has the choice to believe him or Lee a guy she trusted more or so she said. She couldn't even wake him up to say "Lee, a man outside knows where my parents are". I know it's plot holes to set the last episode up, but she was negligent on her part. Earlier in the episode, she gets confronted by Lee and Christa, and they tell her his not a good person, but she still refuses to listen. I just don't get why so many people give her the benefit of the doubt and are hypocritical when they insulted people like Ben and Duck, yet Clementine does a whole lot worse, and she gets let off because she's the golden child.
While I do agree to a certain extent that Clementine is to blame for all the unfortunate things that happened in Ep 5(I actually find myself… more getting mad at her thinking about it) but don't you think throwing her into a herd of walkers is way to far? It's not like she is the spawn of Satan and wanted Lee to die, truth is Clementine was just indenial and wanted a glimpse of hope that her parents were still alive. I place 90% of the blame on the stranger for manipulating Clementine in the first place.
That's because they arrive at Savannah,and the street is empty, they have to be on their guard for walkers at any time. Clementine, is too busy wanting the walkie back, now tell me, if you were in that situation. Would you put your guard down and let the golden child have the walkie, or would you let her have it once you've found safety?
You can tell her on the train that her parents are dead and we have to move on and she starts crying, but a second later, she is all good with Lee so that breaks down your argument on that one. I understand reality is sometimes hard, but if there is a stranger outside, trying to get you to come outside, why wouldn't you let the people inside know? If she felt hurt by Lee, she could've told Christa. Um, you do realise that they left for Crawford at dark and returned at daylight? They'd been up all night fighting for their life, i don't know if you know but doing all nighters in that situation will drain you, and Lee didn't even know what this strangers intentions were, so he had no idea what his plan was, andhe sure didn't think Clementine was just going to go believe some random guy.
With what Lee taught her leading up to it and what they had went through, i wouldn't let one of the group know, so that we could go out together, See when she meets Lee in episode 1, she goes with him just because he says he won't leave her a lone, she trusts him straight away which is bad because she doesn't know what or who Lee is, that i can understand because she is uneducated about it at the time, but as she grows with him, she learns not to trust strangers, and the fact that she did with this insane man, shows how negligent she truely is, all that time spent with Lee, and she chooses a guy she had only talked to on a talkie.
Again, he had no idea what the stranger was planning to do, he only thought it was some guy Clementine was talking to on the walkie. A lot of people will argue that he was trying to make her feel better and have hope to keep her mind focused, but i always hinted to her they were dead, i never wanted to lie and the only time i told her she was alive, was when i had no choice with how the game played itself through.
I disagree, had she not went outside and got herself kidnapped, those events would never of happpened i.e Lee getting bit, Ben dying and Kenny getting separated. Clementine can even admit she blames herself for his death so if she's not to blame, why does she blame herself?
Regardless of the plan that was made on the train, when the group gets to Savannah, Lee just keeps pushing off looking for Clem's parents sa… moreying "not right now" and "we don't have time". The final straw for Clem is when they get back from Crawford and Lee still says there's no time to look for them when the boat is ready.
Now at this point, Clem breaks down as she realizes that, even if her parents are still alive, she will never know because they are leaving the mainland on presumably the last boat. She actually PULLS AWAY from Lee when he tries to comfort her; I think people don't look at this enough. After all they've been through, she must have been extremely angry at Lee to not even hug him; she has always looked to Lee to comfort her when things aren't going well. Except this time he was the one who hurt her. Then Lee does what I think is the dumbest part of the game: he falls asleep. Need I remind you this is after Clem has run off … [view original content]
Haha, wow. So you think that makes them redundant characters? Clementine would most likely be dead without these two, effectively making Lee's sacrifice completely pointless. The timeskip was poorly executed, Clementine should have been as shook about their deaths as she was about Lee's, if not more, considering how much more time she spent with them. But the game decides Lee is somehow the only one she remembers because he was the PC in the previous Season.
The whole discussion was about how they contributed to the game. That 8 months of caring for her was off screen which contributed nothing to the game except when we actually see them on screen, they die straight away. If they wouldn't of been killed off straight away, it would have more meaning but that, add on Christas big time frame skip of well after her pregnancy mishap, it's all over the place. Don't forget, The time frame between a new day and starved for help is 3 months, when they encounter Mark who had food and supplies which if we are talking in your terms, saved the group from starvation for a period of time, yet a lot of people feel Mark was a redundant character because besides that, he served no purpose besides being dinner, same with Christa and Omid, they contributed very little to the actually game.
That's what i said above, for someone who spent 8 months with the two, she sure got over it pretty quickly but was stricken over what happened with Lee. If they would've used Christa and Omid better, they would've been a lot better as characters. i thought given how they came in season 1 near the end and didn't contribute hardly anything (Omid more so) that they could develop in season 2 but nup, were killed off straight away.
Haha, wow. So you think that makes them redundant characters? Clementine would most likely be dead without these two, effectively making Lee… more's sacrifice completely pointless. The timeskip was poorly executed, Clementine should have been as shook about their deaths as she was about Lee's, if not more, considering how much more time she spent with them. But the game decides Lee is somehow the only one she remembers because he was the PC in the previous Season.
That is true, I suppose. In the end, it comes down to the writers ignoring the fact that Clementine was with them for so much longer than with Lee, Kenny etc, yet they are rarely even mentioned after Episode 1. A real bad oversight in my opinion, but I do see your point of them not doing anything significant on screen.
The whole discussion was about how they contributed to the game. That 8 months of caring for her was off screen which contributed nothing to… more the game except when we actually see them on screen, they die straight away. If they wouldn't of been killed off straight away, it would have more meaning but that, add on Christas big time frame skip of well after her pregnancy mishap, it's all over the place. Don't forget, The time frame between a new day and starved for help is 3 months, when they encounter Mark who had food and supplies which if we are talking in your terms, saved the group from starvation for a period of time, yet a lot of people feel Mark was a redundant character because besides that, he served no purpose besides being dinner, same with Christa and Omid, they contributed very little to the actually game.
That's what i said above, for someone who spent 8 months with the two, she sure got over it pretty quickly but was stricken o… [view original content]
There are biological differences between children and adults. Children's brains are still growing. They don't have the capacity for judgement to be necessarily suspicious if something sounds too good to be true. An 8 year old would not think that the person was lying or at the least wanted something in return if they said they were with the child's parents, more so if they never had the "stranger danger" conversation. It's indirectly Clementine's fault Lee died but you can't hold her to the same standard as an adult when science doesn't support it.
I'll agree with on Shawn's, because Duck should never of been on the tractor given how close it was toShawns leg, i will say it was good tim… moreing, walkers showing up as Duck turns the tractor on.
Katjaa's death and Lee's death are without doubt so far apart from each other.
* Lee dies because Clementine believes a stranger, and chooses to go see him, rather then tell Lee about it, resulting in Lee getting bit, Ben dying and Kenny getting separated.
* Katjaa dies because she can't handle her son turning into a walker, suicide. Remember, it was the walker who grabbed Katjaa, that made her fall and push Duck over, resulting in the walker falling on duck and biting him.
I don't know how Duck was the cause of that, Katjaa had her choice, and she chose to kill herself, same with Clementine, she had a choice to believe the stranger or not, and she chose to believe him. Whatever the events were after her choice, were on her head. She can even admit in season 2, she blames herself for Lee's death.
It's just my opinion, there are people who think they did serve a purpose and that's okay. I just think introducing them late in the game hurt their development but what happened in season two was very badly written.
That is true, I suppose. In the end, it comes down to the writers ignoring the fact that Clementine was with them for so much longer than w… moreith Lee, Kenny etc, yet they are rarely even mentioned after Episode 1. A real bad oversight in my opinion, but I do see your point of them not doing anything significant on screen.
You can be a adult and if you're not exposed to certain situations I.e social life, you can have trouble. Sarah was much older then clementine yet she was more unaware then clementine because she was sheltered by her father. Clementine knew that the man was risky but opted to believe him over people she trusted and was familiar with. Don't play the child card, she knew what she was doing, she is to blame for the events that happened more so out of everyone.
There are biological differences between children and adults. Children's brains are still growing. They don't have the capacity for judgemen… moret to be necessarily suspicious if something sounds too good to be true. An 8 year old would not think that the person was lying or at the least wanted something in return if they said they were with the child's parents, more so if they never had the "stranger danger" conversation. It's indirectly Clementine's fault Lee died but you can't hold her to the same standard as an adult when science doesn't support it.
Well, maybe I didn't explain myself perfectly. My comment was just made to explain how Lee is responsible for his own actions, I'm not necessarily mad at him. Just that he made his own choices that led to his death. I guess I just didn't like the choices the game gave you to be honest. If they had the option to agree to look for her parents on the train, then they should have allowed you to actually act on that. That's why I think leading Clem on and telling Clem they are outright dead are the wrong options. But the game doesn't give you another choice so I guess I'm just mad at the writers haha.
I was under the impression you believe Lee, Clem and the Stranger all shared the blame. Are you saying that Lee deserves no blame for what he did? I find that hard to believe. Yes, the Stranger influenced his decision making but Lee was not forced to do what he did (even though I would do the same).
Lee shouldn't have trusted Clem to be by herself in my opinion. She already went off on her own once. Although I do agree that everyone else was tied up at the time. However, that doesn't mean they couldn't have taken the walkie. Just give it to Kenny while he works on the boat. No big deal.
Once again, I turned this on Lee because of his own actions. Lee directly causes his own death while the Stranger and Clem indirectly cause his death. Maybe I was too harsh on Lee before. He is no solely responsible for his death. But he deserves much more blame than Clem and the Stranger in my opinion.
I'm confused, how are you going to get mad at Lee for leading Clementine on, and still get mad at him for telling Clementine about her paren… morets being dead. No, Lee is not to blame at all, the stranger is ultimately the one to blame for manipulation, and Clementine is partially to blame for listening to a stranger, that said that claimed that he had her parents without any proof and Lee trusted Clementine to be by herself, so in a sense Clementine truly did betray him,and everybody else in the group was busy, Ben could be dead, Kenny is working on the boat, Christa is tending to Omid. I think the more shocking part of your comment is how you turned this onto Lee, blindly too.
I was talking about when Kenny insists on getting a boat at the mansion. I wanted to say that he can go get the boat while Clem and I look for her parents. But that wasn't an option even though we had planned to do that on the train. And I wouldn't let Clem have the walkie until after we dealt with the Stranger. He had already gained her trust, I didn't want to risk anything worse happening.
I don't think that breaks down my argument at all. Just because Lee told her that he thinks her parents are dead, doesn't mean that she believes him. She outright says "They're not dead." So obviously she doesn't believe Lee. And really why should she? Lee hadn't been to Savannah yet, he doesn't know if they're dead.
Yeah, she could have woke Lee up or got Christa. I'm not denying that her actions were stupid but love is blind. She convinced herself that this man was trying to help so she could cling onto hope. But she wouldn't have had the chance in the first place if Lee had at least given the walkie to someone else before going to sleep. Yes, he's tired. I get it. I think he can manage another 5 min to hand off the walkie.
Lee didn't know the Stranger's intentions but look at what else he did know. Someone alerted the dead all around them as soon as they entered the city. And someone is stalking them. Regardless of whether this is the same person, at this point, it's logical to think one of them is the Stranger as the city look empty. So either way it looks like the Stranger is after them. And Clem had believed the Stranger so far, why would she stop now?
It was either trust Lee or remain by herself, which she knew wasn't safe. Desperation set in. Which is exactly why she trusted the Stranger. The first chance worked out but, obviously, the second didn't. Maybe she began to trust people more after the group brought in Ben, Chuck, Omid and Christa. And Molly. And worked with Vernon and Brie. That's a lot of examples of the group trusting Strangers, which probably influenced Clem's apprehension towards others. But just like Lee's trust of Vernon backfired, so did Clem's trust of the Stranger.
Well, you don't really know if they are dead or not so you wouldn't be lying. Not sure if you have seen this option but on the train, if you plan to try to find Clem's parents Lee says something like "you need to find your parents if they're alive, and if they're not, you need to know what happened to them". I think that's the best option but the game never lets you act on it.
And if Lee hadn't left the walkie in the open, Clem wouldn't have gone outside and those events wouldn't have happened. Lee's actions started the chain and ended it. Clem was just a participant in the middle. She did indirectly cause his death though, as did the Stranger. She blames herself because of survivor's guilt. Tons of people experience this after someone close to them dies. They ask what they could have done differently that would have saved their life. When she got older she understands what she did was stupid and that she had a part in Lee's death. But only a part, Lee is still more responsible in my opinion.
Sorry for the delay but it took a while to read your post and put my thoughts together that make sense. And y'know, the holiday and all. Good conversation though!
That's because they arrive at Savannah,and the street is empty, they have to be on their guard for walkers at any time. Clementine, is too b… moreusy wanting the walkie back, now tell me, if you were in that situation. Would you put your guard down and let the golden child have the walkie, or would you let her have it once you've found safety?
You can tell her on the train that her parents are dead and we have to move on and she starts crying, but a second later, she is all good with Lee so that breaks down your argument on that one. I understand reality is sometimes hard, but if there is a stranger outside, trying to get you to come outside, why wouldn't you let the people inside know? If she felt hurt by Lee, she could've told Christa. Um, you do realise that they left for Crawford at dark and returned at daylight? They'd been up all night fighting for their life, i don't know if you know but doing all nighters in that situation will drain you… [view original content]
Well, maybe I didn't explain myself perfectly. My comment was just made to explain how Lee is responsible for his own actions, I'm not neces… moresarily mad at him. Just that he made his own choices that led to his death. I guess I just didn't like the choices the game gave you to be honest. If they had the option to agree to look for her parents on the train, then they should have allowed you to actually act on that. That's why I think leading Clem on and telling Clem they are outright dead are the wrong options. But the game doesn't give you another choice so I guess I'm just mad at the writers haha.
I was under the impression you believe Lee, Clem and the Stranger all shared the blame. Are you saying that Lee deserves no blame for what he did? I find that hard to believe. Yes, the Stranger influenced his decision making but Lee was not forced to do what he did (even though I would do the same).
Lee shouldn't have trusted Clem to be by her… [view original content]
You do know that Lee was telling her that to keep her in a good state of mind right? He tries to tell her at first that it's not a good idea, but then she gets enthuastic about it, so he says we will look for a boat and find her parents, you can tell Kenny at the end of episode 3 that is the plan but yes it doesn't crossover to episode 4.
Don't you remember back in episode 1? The voice message? It was pretty daunting and the way her mother said the last message, was as if she was going to die or something was about to happen to her hence it cuts off. Lee knew that they were most likely gone, and that telling Clementine was a bad idea at the time.
In all honesty, i don't think he actually thought the stranger would strike, like i said, all he knew was that the guy was talking to Clementine, he never actually knew what the stranger had planned, and im not sure but given the fact that Clementine was able to leave the house, the whole group was most likely sleeping so Lee wouldn't of wanted to disturb them. I still stand by what i said that Clementine, if she didn't want to talk to Lee, could;ve got Christa and said that there is a man outside claiming he knows where my parents are.
The only thing Lee knew was that someone was ringing the bells and someone was watching him through the gate burying fivel. He finds out later on that the bell ringer was Molly. As for the stranger being at the gate, Lee had no idea what the stranger looked like, and he didn't get a good look at the guy because he was in the fog and he took off before Lee could get a good look. For all Lee knew, he could've been someone who still lived in the area. I know the streets were empty, but there could;ve been hideouts like the cancer patients.
I can't remember which character it is, but when they meet one of the new characters, Lee asks Clementine what do you think ,and she replies with something like theyre weird or something, so it's obvious that she had learnt not to trust people upon meeting them. She was naive when first meeting Lee because he said he wouldn't leave her alone, but she grew more and more to know not to trust outside people. Vernon betrayed Lee by stealing something Lee and his group was gonna use, Lee wasn't manipulated like Clementine was. The only difference was that Lee didn't get a chance to tell the group because he had no idea Vernon and that were gonna steal the boat where as Clementine, given how serious the accusations were made by the stranger, should've told someone what he was saying,
That's the good thing about choices, they let the player decide how the game goes, some people believe there is closure on knowing what happened, some don't. I told her they were dead and that we needed to move on to make her strong, because what she doesn't know, won't hurt her.
If you want to blame Lee for it more then her that's fine, but you need to take in the facts that you're saying he started it by having the walkie open for her to take it but the thing is that it was her who chose to go outside, she went behind the groups back because she believe a random guy she had never met before. She had plenty of options like asking the stranger what their names were, waking Lee up, getting someone else from the group, letting Lee talk to him, but she decides to be negligent and go outside and that was what started it all. Lee wouldn't of got bit, Ben wouldn't of died, and Kenny wouldn't of got separated. The guilt comes from the fact that she knows she messed up. She was too self absorbed that she was worrying about her own life and not others, that's not a team player, that's being selfish and because of her actions, she got kidnapped and the group had to save her ass which resulted in deaths of characters that never should of happened.
I was talking about when Kenny insists on getting a boat at the mansion. I wanted to say that he can go get the boat while Clem and I look f… moreor her parents. But that wasn't an option even though we had planned to do that on the train. And I wouldn't let Clem have the walkie until after we dealt with the Stranger. He had already gained her trust, I didn't want to risk anything worse happening.
I don't think that breaks down my argument at all. Just because Lee told her that he thinks her parents are dead, doesn't mean that she believes him. She outright says "They're not dead." So obviously she doesn't believe Lee. And really why should she? Lee hadn't been to Savannah yet, he doesn't know if they're dead.
Yeah, she could have woke Lee up or got Christa. I'm not denying that her actions were stupid but love is blind. She convinced herself that this man was trying to help so she could cling onto hope. But she wouldn't have had the chance i… [view original content]
Okay, after a "lot" of thinkin, I think I have an actual contribution:
Which character would you feed to walkers?: Justin, Carver, then maybe Jane
Which character would you protect till you die?: Sarah, Jolene, then maybe Shel
Now I understand what you mean! I had gotten confused and believed you were suggesting that Lee determinantly helping Larry by performing ch… moreest compressions on him was even remotely relevant to what happened in "A New Day."
Then we probably coincide on this matter. Both of us can identify what Larry's motivations were for punching Lee and attempting to have him killed; but doing so was not justified and was immoral.
And taking into consideration that Lee had risked his own life to find the nitroglycerin pills that saved his life, Larry is an asshole for doing so. Still, we understand why Larry did it.
At this point, yes, he was trying to keep her head in the game. But in my playthrough, it literally made Lee look like a liar. I kept choosing the options that we would look for her parents every chance I got and that is the plan we made. I actually believed we would be able to follow this path as Lee tells Kenny their plan. And it sounded like Lee and Kenny would eventually go their own ways. But the game made Lee start backing down slowly from "we will" to "we will if" to "we might" to "we can't". Do you see how this could affect Clem? Why should she trust Lee now? The one man she really trusted basically lied to her since the day they met (about her parents, not everything else). Now, to find her parents she must trust a stranger, just like she trusted Lee when it all started.
Yes, the voice message sounded really bad and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't make it. But we've seen much worse circumstances where the person actually survives. Just look at the Kenny situation. We actually see him surrounded by walkers and it looked like he definitely died. But he survived. Nobody is dead until I actually see them dead in my book. I agree, though, that they were probably dead. I just didn't want Clem to have any regrets about looking for them when they could be alive, whatever small the chance was.
No, Lee didn't know the Stranger's exact plan but he knew that the Stranger was leading Clem to him. In the last scene on the train, the Stranger says "Clementine, come find me, whether Lee wants you to or not". That doesn't sound like someone who is just talking to Clem. I really doubt the whole group was sleeping... That's a terrible idea in a zombie apocalypse and someone is stalking you. I'm sure at least one person was on watch. Agreed, she could have found Christa, we already discussed this though.
Agreed, it could have been someone else but after what the Stranger said, I wouldn't risk it. If that stalker was the Stranger, he knows where they are now, and wants Clem to come to him.
Yes, when Clem is asked by Lee about Chuck, she just says "I don't know" because they don't really know anything about him. I mean, Clem went up the ladder to see Omid and Christa when they just met and Lee just said that he hopes they aren't murderers or thieves. I think that's all that needs to be said about Clem's trust in strangers. But Lee was also manipulated by a stranger. Vernon made it seem like he was fine in the shelter with the extra supplies from Crawford. But he was really after the boat. The difference is Vernon fooled the whole group while the Stranger fooled a little girl. I agree that Clem should have told someone else. But exactly what accusations did the Stranger make?
Agreed. That's fine, it's your choice. I just didn't want her to regret not looking for them later. Look at Ben. He had all that pent up rage because he didn't know what happened to his family. Clem could be like that; not knowing if there's something that someone could have done to save her parents. It eats up at you; survivor's guilt again.
Yeah, she took it, like I said it was her last chance to find her parents. Agreed, she could have done all those things. But she's a smart girl. Lee basically just told her no. She tells him and there's a chance he shoots it down and she knew that. She took a risk and, at that time, it was worth it for her. She couldn't have known all that other stuff would happen. I'm not sure you can blame Ben's death and Kenny's disappearance on her though. The cancer survivors still would have taken the boat. Then things would have happened the same way with them trying to get out of the attic and the stuff with Ben and Kenny still would happen. Yes, she wasn't being a team player, but honestly "family is what is most important. It's all that matters now. " -Herschel Greene
You do know that Lee was telling her that to keep her in a good state of mind right? He tries to tell her at first that it's not a good idea… more, but then she gets enthuastic about it, so he says we will look for a boat and find her parents, you can tell Kenny at the end of episode 3 that is the plan but yes it doesn't crossover to episode 4.
Don't you remember back in episode 1? The voice message? It was pretty daunting and the way her mother said the last message, was as if she was going to die or something was about to happen to her hence it cuts off. Lee knew that they were most likely gone, and that telling Clementine was a bad idea at the time.
In all honesty, i don't think he actually thought the stranger would strike, like i said, all he knew was that the guy was talking to Clementine, he never actually knew what the stranger had planned, and im not sure but given the fact that Clementine was able to leave the house, the whole grou… [view original content]
1: If you play that play through then yes it will seem as if he is not being honest with her, but you're kidding yourself if you thought that would go their own ways. But the thing is that weather or not you choose Lee to tell her that her parents are alive, it's a short term reassurence to make her feel happy. That's why i chose not to do it because it was a lie and i hate liars.
2: Well with Kenny, he was suppose to die, they had a more clearer scene where you knew he died, but they chose that one so they could make a story that he somehow survived. with Clementines parent's it's different because i agree with you that nobody is dead until you see them they made it obvious that something bad happened and i think Lee knew they were dead, he just couldn't tell her straight away.
3: Doesn't he say "And you'll be sure to find them, weather Lee wants you to or not".... Lee knew it was a threat, but i don't think he actually knew that he would strike, and if you remember when he looks for her, no one is visible, everyone is out of sight, that's my reason for thinking they were all sleeping or in their rooms because they're no where to be found and they all come out together. And remember that they did an all nighter trying to stay alive, i think once the adrendaline wore off, they would crash.
4: I guess that's the same thing as what you said keeping someone on watch, because the way it was set out, no one saw Clementine escape.
5: She only went up because Lee was there, i agree it wasn't bright, but she wouldn't of went up had Lee not been there. He didn't know about the boat until he and Brie were there, he had decent intentions until that, he also ask if they came from the railroad so he was sussing out things to take off with. You know, about having her parents and knowing where they were. Vernon never made any malice of taking the boat, they just showed up and stole it, the stranger was making pre accusations before the kidnapping making Clementine know that he was planning something in advance.
6: It might cause controversy, but i believe Ben letting the anger and guilt out made him a stronger person, look at him, he was weak and easy to manipulate, and once he has a go at Kenny, he gets stronger, granted he didn't get much time after that, but there was a change in Ben.
7: I think if Vernon never saw or heard of the boat, he would never of asked or took it, because he wouldn't of known, they would've most likely taken the train instead. He was only being honest with her and the sad thing is that a lot of people can't handle honesty because it's reality and people want to believe what they think , not what is reality. If Vernon and co would've taken the boat, then they would've ended up getting back on the train, there's an option when Lee is talking to Christa and Omid to meet back at the train. the thing is that if Clementine didn't get kidnapped, Lee wouldn't of looked in the street and got bit, Ben wouldn't of died because they wouldn't of got on the balcony because they would've had a lot more time to get out because they had to go the morgue to find Vernon and Kenny wouldn't of got separated . Yes family is more important, but when you don't have family, you have to trust the ones you trust, and Clementine in a way betrayed that trust by believing a stranger over people she had know for a period of time.
* At this point, yes, he was trying to keep her head in the game. But in my playthrough, it literally made Lee look like a liar. I kept choo… moresing the options that we would look for her parents every chance I got and that is the plan we made. I actually believed we would be able to follow this path as Lee tells Kenny their plan. And it sounded like Lee and Kenny would eventually go their own ways. But the game made Lee start backing down slowly from "we will" to "we will if" to "we might" to "we can't". Do you see how this could affect Clem? Why should she trust Lee now? The one man she really trusted basically lied to her since the day they met (about her parents, not everything else). Now, to find her parents she must trust a stranger, just like she trusted Lee when it all started.
* Yes, the voice message sounded really bad and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't make it. But we've seen much worse circumstances where the person actuall… [view original content]
I mean, on the train when Lee tells Kenny that the plan is to look for her parents, Kenny says that's not the plan. Lee then says it's ours, meaning Lee and Clem. That sounded to me like it was something more than just making her feel good and Lee would leave the group if that's what it takes. If Lee was just trying to make Clem feel good, he wouldn't tell Kenny a fake plan, why would he do that? And that's fine, that is your choice to tell her directly but I did want to at least try so she could know one way or another.
Agreed, the Kenny situation seemed unrealistic, especially the one in the alley when Christa is looking down there and says nothing. If she saw him escape, she definitely would have said so. But my point is that we thought we saw Kenny die but he survived. We only heard her parents and, while it looked grim, you never know if someone saved them, but they dropped their phone or something. We just didn't know for sure.
Yes, he says that, which means he wanted Clem to come to him. I agree Lee probably didn't expect him to find us, but again after seeing the guy standing outside the mansion and that could be him, I wouldn't take any chances. And that's the reason that I think someone was awake; they can't all go to sleep with someone watching them. I don't care how tired they are, someone had to take watch.
Yeah, nobody saw her escape. It doesn't really make sense, but we do know from season 2 that Clem can be sneaky if she wants to be. Either that or there really wasn't a good vantage point to see the whole area. Maybe they just thought she was going in the backyard, they let her out before when she found the boat.
Still, there's 2 people up there and Clem only has Lee to protect her. She trusted them immediately. With Vernon, as soon as he saw that boat, he knew that was his best chance at survival. I also think he mentioned the train because he saw all the walkers that were following it and realized the city was about to be overrun. So he took the boat to escape the city. He tries to get Lee to give up Clem because he wants her to go with them on the boat to survive. I agree I didn't notice it either and was surprised when he stole the boat, but there is a lot of foreshadowing that he was looking for better alternatives than the shelter.
Oh, agreed completely. This is one of my favorite scenes, because Ben finally gets some character development and I finally felt bad for him. Even Kenny is moved and that rarely happens. But Ben still has to live with the fact that he doesn't know his family's status. I think that would have taken a toll on him if he had survived longer.
Never thought about it, but agreed. The train would be the next best option. The thing is Lee seems like a liar both ways, whether you lead her on, or tell her they are dead. She knows you can't possibly know that, and she doesn't know about the answering machine so she has no reason to believe Lee. Then the Stranger says they are there with him, supposedly a first-hand experience, which is more than Lee had with them. They might have used the train to get out of Savannah, actually, as Kenny taught Omid how to work it. But we don't know. Clem didn't know she didn't have a family, though. She was still hoping and someone told her they are still alive. So I would risk it too. Might have done it differently, but I would at least try.
1: If you play that play through then yes it will seem as if he is not being honest with her, but you're kidding yourself if you thought tha… moret would go their own ways. But the thing is that weather or not you choose Lee to tell her that her parents are alive, it's a short term reassurence to make her feel happy. That's why i chose not to do it because it was a lie and i hate liars.
2: Well with Kenny, he was suppose to die, they had a more clearer scene where you knew he died, but they chose that one so they could make a story that he somehow survived. with Clementines parent's it's different because i agree with you that nobody is dead until you see them they made it obvious that something bad happened and i think Lee knew they were dead, he just couldn't tell her straight away.
3: Doesn't he say "And you'll be sure to find them, weather Lee wants you to or not".... Lee knew it was a threat, but i don't think he actually knew that he wo… [view original content]
You are such a liar...your a lot of thinking is just carry over from your previous posts. You should be grown enough to understand that feeding people to walkers is evil...even I would not do that to Kenny.
Okay, after a "lot" of thinkin, I think I have an actual contribution:
Which character would you feed to walkers?: Justin, Carver, then maybe Jane
Which character would you protect till you die?: Sarah, Jolene, then maybe Shel
You are such a liar...your a lot of thinking is just carry over from your previous posts. You should be grown enough to understand that feeding people to walkers is evil...even I would not do that to Kenny.
Comments
Now I understand what you mean! I had gotten confused and believed you were suggesting that Lee determinantly helping Larry by performing chest compressions on him was even remotely relevant to what happened in "A New Day."
Then we probably coincide on this matter. Both of us can identify what Larry's motivations were for punching Lee and attempting to have him killed; but doing so was not justified and was immoral.
And taking into consideration that Lee had risked his own life to find the nitroglycerin pills that saved his life, Larry is an asshole for doing so. Still, we understand why Larry did it.
People are often accused falsely, could be that idk I wasn't there to witness it.
But you're Lee Everett himself!
Feed to the walkers: Kenny.
Protect with my life: Jane
eats popcorn
Just kidding, not trying to stir anything up. :P
Excluding the main characters, I'd protect Sarah and feed Reggie to the walkers.
Damnit, you figured it out!
Except that he took care of Clementine together with Christa more than twice as long as Lee and also died trying to save her.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Regardless of the plan that was made on the train, when the group gets to Savannah, Lee just keeps pushing off looking for Clem's parents saying "not right now" and "we don't have time". The final straw for Clem is when they get back from Crawford and Lee still says there's no time to look for them when the boat is ready.
Now at this point, Clem breaks down as she realizes that, even if her parents are still alive, she will never know because they are leaving the mainland on presumably the last boat. She actually PULLS AWAY from Lee when he tries to comfort her; I think people don't look at this enough. After all they've been through, she must have been extremely angry at Lee to not even hug him; she has always looked to Lee to comfort her when things aren't going well. Except this time he was the one who hurt her. Then Lee does what I think is the dumbest part of the game: he falls asleep. Need I remind you this is after Clem has run off multiple times already. I realize he's tired, but come on, man, at least have someone else watch her...
Anyway, Clem is sad, all hope is lost until the Stranger contacts her. What he said we don't know. I can imagine him saying something like "hey come outside, your parents are here" and she jumped up to go running into their arms. Think about it, what if this were you? What if you had one last hope to see your parents? You're telling me you wouldn't go just because this guy MIGHT be untrustworthy? Sure, I would have liked her to wake up Lee, but after what had just happened, she probably wasn't thinking straight and just wanted to see them immediately. I'd probably do the same if I was a little kid because it would be the only way I would know for sure.
All this to say, you keep blaming Clem for Lee's death. But Lee deserves a lot of the blame too. Leading her on for months only to tell her you're leaving without them. Or if you took the other route, telling her they are dead with no proof. She's not gonna believe it unless she sees it. Lee falling asleep with the walkie talkie in plain sight. Come to think of it, he probably should have just given it to someone else and tell them to wake him up if the Stranger calls in. Then when he wakes up he goes outside BY HIMSELF to look for her and is too concerned with the walkie to actually be aware of his surroundings in a zombie apocalypse.
Sorry, but in this scenario, the Stranger was pulling the strings and Clem took the bait. But neither is responsible for Lee's death. He made his own choices and Lee, only Lee, is responsible for his own death.
I'm confused, how are you going to get mad at Lee for leading Clementine on, and still get mad at him for telling Clementine about her parents being dead. No, Lee is not to blame at all, the stranger is ultimately the one to blame for manipulation, and Clementine is partially to blame for listening to a stranger, that said that claimed that he had her parents without any proof and Lee trusted Clementine to be by herself, so in a sense Clementine truly did betray him,and everybody else in the group was busy, Ben could be dead, Kenny is working on the boat, Christa is tending to Omid. I think the more shocking part of your comment is how you turned this onto Lee, blindly too.
And guess what? We never saw any of it, just like Christas baby timeframe skip, so he contributed nothing to the game on screen and that 8 months had no impact on the game besides leaving Clementine with grief which for some strange reason, she got over pretty quickly.
Except Lee's death hit Clementine a lot more then Omid's and Christas.
I also blamed the stranger saying it takes 2 to tango, but the thing is that Clementine's choice to go out and believe him was the big one. He tries to lure her out, she has the choice to believe him or Lee a guy she trusted more or so she said. She couldn't even wake him up to say "Lee, a man outside knows where my parents are". I know it's plot holes to set the last episode up, but she was negligent on her part. Earlier in the episode, she gets confronted by Lee and Christa, and they tell her his not a good person, but she still refuses to listen. I just don't get why so many people give her the benefit of the doubt and are hypocritical when they insulted people like Ben and Duck, yet Clementine does a whole lot worse, and she gets let off because she's the golden child.
That's because they arrive at Savannah,and the street is empty, they have to be on their guard for walkers at any time. Clementine, is too busy wanting the walkie back, now tell me, if you were in that situation. Would you put your guard down and let the golden child have the walkie, or would you let her have it once you've found safety?
You can tell her on the train that her parents are dead and we have to move on and she starts crying, but a second later, she is all good with Lee so that breaks down your argument on that one. I understand reality is sometimes hard, but if there is a stranger outside, trying to get you to come outside, why wouldn't you let the people inside know? If she felt hurt by Lee, she could've told Christa. Um, you do realise that they left for Crawford at dark and returned at daylight? They'd been up all night fighting for their life, i don't know if you know but doing all nighters in that situation will drain you, and Lee didn't even know what this strangers intentions were, so he had no idea what his plan was, andhe sure didn't think Clementine was just going to go believe some random guy.
With what Lee taught her leading up to it and what they had went through, i wouldn't let one of the group know, so that we could go out together, See when she meets Lee in episode 1, she goes with him just because he says he won't leave her a lone, she trusts him straight away which is bad because she doesn't know what or who Lee is, that i can understand because she is uneducated about it at the time, but as she grows with him, she learns not to trust strangers, and the fact that she did with this insane man, shows how negligent she truely is, all that time spent with Lee, and she chooses a guy she had only talked to on a talkie.
Again, he had no idea what the stranger was planning to do, he only thought it was some guy Clementine was talking to on the walkie. A lot of people will argue that he was trying to make her feel better and have hope to keep her mind focused, but i always hinted to her they were dead, i never wanted to lie and the only time i told her she was alive, was when i had no choice with how the game played itself through.
I disagree, had she not went outside and got herself kidnapped, those events would never of happpened i.e Lee getting bit, Ben dying and Kenny getting separated. Clementine can even admit she blames herself for his death so if she's not to blame, why does she blame herself?
Haha, wow. So you think that makes them redundant characters? Clementine would most likely be dead without these two, effectively making Lee's sacrifice completely pointless. The timeskip was poorly executed, Clementine should have been as shook about their deaths as she was about Lee's, if not more, considering how much more time she spent with them. But the game decides Lee is somehow the only one she remembers because he was the PC in the previous Season.
The whole discussion was about how they contributed to the game. That 8 months of caring for her was off screen which contributed nothing to the game except when we actually see them on screen, they die straight away. If they wouldn't of been killed off straight away, it would have more meaning but that, add on Christas big time frame skip of well after her pregnancy mishap, it's all over the place. Don't forget, The time frame between a new day and starved for help is 3 months, when they encounter Mark who had food and supplies which if we are talking in your terms, saved the group from starvation for a period of time, yet a lot of people feel Mark was a redundant character because besides that, he served no purpose besides being dinner, same with Christa and Omid, they contributed very little to the actually game.
That's what i said above, for someone who spent 8 months with the two, she sure got over it pretty quickly but was stricken over what happened with Lee. If they would've used Christa and Omid better, they would've been a lot better as characters. i thought given how they came in season 1 near the end and didn't contribute hardly anything (Omid more so) that they could develop in season 2 but nup, were killed off straight away.
That is true, I suppose. In the end, it comes down to the writers ignoring the fact that Clementine was with them for so much longer than with Lee, Kenny etc, yet they are rarely even mentioned after Episode 1. A real bad oversight in my opinion, but I do see your point of them not doing anything significant on screen.
There are biological differences between children and adults. Children's brains are still growing. They don't have the capacity for judgement to be necessarily suspicious if something sounds too good to be true. An 8 year old would not think that the person was lying or at the least wanted something in return if they said they were with the child's parents, more so if they never had the "stranger danger" conversation. It's indirectly Clementine's fault Lee died but you can't hold her to the same standard as an adult when science doesn't support it.
It's just my opinion, there are people who think they did serve a purpose and that's okay. I just think introducing them late in the game hurt their development but what happened in season two was very badly written.
You can be a adult and if you're not exposed to certain situations I.e social life, you can have trouble. Sarah was much older then clementine yet she was more unaware then clementine because she was sheltered by her father. Clementine knew that the man was risky but opted to believe him over people she trusted and was familiar with. Don't play the child card, she knew what she was doing, she is to blame for the events that happened more so out of everyone.
Well, maybe I didn't explain myself perfectly. My comment was just made to explain how Lee is responsible for his own actions, I'm not necessarily mad at him. Just that he made his own choices that led to his death. I guess I just didn't like the choices the game gave you to be honest. If they had the option to agree to look for her parents on the train, then they should have allowed you to actually act on that. That's why I think leading Clem on and telling Clem they are outright dead are the wrong options. But the game doesn't give you another choice so I guess I'm just mad at the writers haha.
I was under the impression you believe Lee, Clem and the Stranger all shared the blame. Are you saying that Lee deserves no blame for what he did? I find that hard to believe. Yes, the Stranger influenced his decision making but Lee was not forced to do what he did (even though I would do the same).
Lee shouldn't have trusted Clem to be by herself in my opinion. She already went off on her own once. Although I do agree that everyone else was tied up at the time. However, that doesn't mean they couldn't have taken the walkie. Just give it to Kenny while he works on the boat. No big deal.
Once again, I turned this on Lee because of his own actions. Lee directly causes his own death while the Stranger and Clem indirectly cause his death. Maybe I was too harsh on Lee before. He is no solely responsible for his death. But he deserves much more blame than Clem and the Stranger in my opinion.
I was talking about when Kenny insists on getting a boat at the mansion. I wanted to say that he can go get the boat while Clem and I look for her parents. But that wasn't an option even though we had planned to do that on the train. And I wouldn't let Clem have the walkie until after we dealt with the Stranger. He had already gained her trust, I didn't want to risk anything worse happening.
I don't think that breaks down my argument at all. Just because Lee told her that he thinks her parents are dead, doesn't mean that she believes him. She outright says "They're not dead." So obviously she doesn't believe Lee. And really why should she? Lee hadn't been to Savannah yet, he doesn't know if they're dead.
Yeah, she could have woke Lee up or got Christa. I'm not denying that her actions were stupid but love is blind. She convinced herself that this man was trying to help so she could cling onto hope. But she wouldn't have had the chance in the first place if Lee had at least given the walkie to someone else before going to sleep. Yes, he's tired. I get it. I think he can manage another 5 min to hand off the walkie.
Lee didn't know the Stranger's intentions but look at what else he did know. Someone alerted the dead all around them as soon as they entered the city. And someone is stalking them. Regardless of whether this is the same person, at this point, it's logical to think one of them is the Stranger as the city look empty. So either way it looks like the Stranger is after them. And Clem had believed the Stranger so far, why would she stop now?
It was either trust Lee or remain by herself, which she knew wasn't safe. Desperation set in. Which is exactly why she trusted the Stranger. The first chance worked out but, obviously, the second didn't. Maybe she began to trust people more after the group brought in Ben, Chuck, Omid and Christa. And Molly. And worked with Vernon and Brie. That's a lot of examples of the group trusting Strangers, which probably influenced Clem's apprehension towards others. But just like Lee's trust of Vernon backfired, so did Clem's trust of the Stranger.
Well, you don't really know if they are dead or not so you wouldn't be lying. Not sure if you have seen this option but on the train, if you plan to try to find Clem's parents Lee says something like "you need to find your parents if they're alive, and if they're not, you need to know what happened to them". I think that's the best option but the game never lets you act on it.
And if Lee hadn't left the walkie in the open, Clem wouldn't have gone outside and those events wouldn't have happened. Lee's actions started the chain and ended it. Clem was just a participant in the middle. She did indirectly cause his death though, as did the Stranger. She blames herself because of survivor's guilt. Tons of people experience this after someone close to them dies. They ask what they could have done differently that would have saved their life. When she got older she understands what she did was stupid and that she had a part in Lee's death. But only a part, Lee is still more responsible in my opinion.
Sorry for the delay but it took a while to read your post and put my thoughts together that make sense. And y'know, the holiday and all. Good conversation though!
Oh okay, hahahaha.
Why Reggie?
Protect: Clementine, Molly
Feed: Kenny
You do know that Lee was telling her that to keep her in a good state of mind right? He tries to tell her at first that it's not a good idea, but then she gets enthuastic about it, so he says we will look for a boat and find her parents, you can tell Kenny at the end of episode 3 that is the plan but yes it doesn't crossover to episode 4.
Don't you remember back in episode 1? The voice message? It was pretty daunting and the way her mother said the last message, was as if she was going to die or something was about to happen to her hence it cuts off. Lee knew that they were most likely gone, and that telling Clementine was a bad idea at the time.
In all honesty, i don't think he actually thought the stranger would strike, like i said, all he knew was that the guy was talking to Clementine, he never actually knew what the stranger had planned, and im not sure but given the fact that Clementine was able to leave the house, the whole group was most likely sleeping so Lee wouldn't of wanted to disturb them. I still stand by what i said that Clementine, if she didn't want to talk to Lee, could;ve got Christa and said that there is a man outside claiming he knows where my parents are.
The only thing Lee knew was that someone was ringing the bells and someone was watching him through the gate burying fivel. He finds out later on that the bell ringer was Molly. As for the stranger being at the gate, Lee had no idea what the stranger looked like, and he didn't get a good look at the guy because he was in the fog and he took off before Lee could get a good look. For all Lee knew, he could've been someone who still lived in the area. I know the streets were empty, but there could;ve been hideouts like the cancer patients.
I can't remember which character it is, but when they meet one of the new characters, Lee asks Clementine what do you think ,and she replies with something like theyre weird or something, so it's obvious that she had learnt not to trust people upon meeting them. She was naive when first meeting Lee because he said he wouldn't leave her alone, but she grew more and more to know not to trust outside people. Vernon betrayed Lee by stealing something Lee and his group was gonna use, Lee wasn't manipulated like Clementine was. The only difference was that Lee didn't get a chance to tell the group because he had no idea Vernon and that were gonna steal the boat where as Clementine, given how serious the accusations were made by the stranger, should've told someone what he was saying,
That's the good thing about choices, they let the player decide how the game goes, some people believe there is closure on knowing what happened, some don't. I told her they were dead and that we needed to move on to make her strong, because what she doesn't know, won't hurt her.
If you want to blame Lee for it more then her that's fine, but you need to take in the facts that you're saying he started it by having the walkie open for her to take it but the thing is that it was her who chose to go outside, she went behind the groups back because she believe a random guy she had never met before. She had plenty of options like asking the stranger what their names were, waking Lee up, getting someone else from the group, letting Lee talk to him, but she decides to be negligent and go outside and that was what started it all. Lee wouldn't of got bit, Ben wouldn't of died, and Kenny wouldn't of got separated. The guilt comes from the fact that she knows she messed up. She was too self absorbed that she was worrying about her own life and not others, that's not a team player, that's being selfish and because of her actions, she got kidnapped and the group had to save her ass which resulted in deaths of characters that never should of happened.
Better question would be: Why not?
Okay, after a "lot" of thinkin, I think I have an actual contribution:
Which character would you feed to walkers?: Justin, Carver, then maybe Jane
Which character would you protect till you die?: Sarah, Jolene, then maybe Shel
I will cut you!
Yeah, what's people's beef with that guy. I thought he was among the most sympathetic characters of Season 2. Not that that's hard.
Because a crime of passion is murder.
It's called murder in the 2nd degree.
Pre-meditated is murder in the 1st degree.
I understand why, I just think he's a piece of shit for doing so, even with his "reasoning".
At this point, yes, he was trying to keep her head in the game. But in my playthrough, it literally made Lee look like a liar. I kept choosing the options that we would look for her parents every chance I got and that is the plan we made. I actually believed we would be able to follow this path as Lee tells Kenny their plan. And it sounded like Lee and Kenny would eventually go their own ways. But the game made Lee start backing down slowly from "we will" to "we will if" to "we might" to "we can't". Do you see how this could affect Clem? Why should she trust Lee now? The one man she really trusted basically lied to her since the day they met (about her parents, not everything else). Now, to find her parents she must trust a stranger, just like she trusted Lee when it all started.
Yes, the voice message sounded really bad and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't make it. But we've seen much worse circumstances where the person actually survives. Just look at the Kenny situation. We actually see him surrounded by walkers and it looked like he definitely died. But he survived. Nobody is dead until I actually see them dead in my book. I agree, though, that they were probably dead. I just didn't want Clem to have any regrets about looking for them when they could be alive, whatever small the chance was.
No, Lee didn't know the Stranger's exact plan but he knew that the Stranger was leading Clem to him. In the last scene on the train, the Stranger says "Clementine, come find me, whether Lee wants you to or not". That doesn't sound like someone who is just talking to Clem. I really doubt the whole group was sleeping... That's a terrible idea in a zombie apocalypse and someone is stalking you. I'm sure at least one person was on watch. Agreed, she could have found Christa, we already discussed this though.
Agreed, it could have been someone else but after what the Stranger said, I wouldn't risk it. If that stalker was the Stranger, he knows where they are now, and wants Clem to come to him.
Yes, when Clem is asked by Lee about Chuck, she just says "I don't know" because they don't really know anything about him. I mean, Clem went up the ladder to see Omid and Christa when they just met and Lee just said that he hopes they aren't murderers or thieves. I think that's all that needs to be said about Clem's trust in strangers. But Lee was also manipulated by a stranger. Vernon made it seem like he was fine in the shelter with the extra supplies from Crawford. But he was really after the boat. The difference is Vernon fooled the whole group while the Stranger fooled a little girl. I agree that Clem should have told someone else. But exactly what accusations did the Stranger make?
Agreed. That's fine, it's your choice. I just didn't want her to regret not looking for them later. Look at Ben. He had all that pent up rage because he didn't know what happened to his family. Clem could be like that; not knowing if there's something that someone could have done to save her parents. It eats up at you; survivor's guilt again.
Yeah, she took it, like I said it was her last chance to find her parents. Agreed, she could have done all those things. But she's a smart girl. Lee basically just told her no. She tells him and there's a chance he shoots it down and she knew that. She took a risk and, at that time, it was worth it for her. She couldn't have known all that other stuff would happen. I'm not sure you can blame Ben's death and Kenny's disappearance on her though. The cancer survivors still would have taken the boat. Then things would have happened the same way with them trying to get out of the attic and the stuff with Ben and Kenny still would happen. Yes, she wasn't being a team player, but honestly "family is what is most important. It's all that matters now. " -Herschel Greene
1: If you play that play through then yes it will seem as if he is not being honest with her, but you're kidding yourself if you thought that would go their own ways. But the thing is that weather or not you choose Lee to tell her that her parents are alive, it's a short term reassurence to make her feel happy. That's why i chose not to do it because it was a lie and i hate liars.
2: Well with Kenny, he was suppose to die, they had a more clearer scene where you knew he died, but they chose that one so they could make a story that he somehow survived. with Clementines parent's it's different because i agree with you that nobody is dead until you see them they made it obvious that something bad happened and i think Lee knew they were dead, he just couldn't tell her straight away.
3: Doesn't he say "And you'll be sure to find them, weather Lee wants you to or not".... Lee knew it was a threat, but i don't think he actually knew that he would strike, and if you remember when he looks for her, no one is visible, everyone is out of sight, that's my reason for thinking they were all sleeping or in their rooms because they're no where to be found and they all come out together. And remember that they did an all nighter trying to stay alive, i think once the adrendaline wore off, they would crash.
4: I guess that's the same thing as what you said keeping someone on watch, because the way it was set out, no one saw Clementine escape.
5: She only went up because Lee was there, i agree it wasn't bright, but she wouldn't of went up had Lee not been there. He didn't know about the boat until he and Brie were there, he had decent intentions until that, he also ask if they came from the railroad so he was sussing out things to take off with. You know, about having her parents and knowing where they were. Vernon never made any malice of taking the boat, they just showed up and stole it, the stranger was making pre accusations before the kidnapping making Clementine know that he was planning something in advance.
6: It might cause controversy, but i believe Ben letting the anger and guilt out made him a stronger person, look at him, he was weak and easy to manipulate, and once he has a go at Kenny, he gets stronger, granted he didn't get much time after that, but there was a change in Ben.
7: I think if Vernon never saw or heard of the boat, he would never of asked or took it, because he wouldn't of known, they would've most likely taken the train instead. He was only being honest with her and the sad thing is that a lot of people can't handle honesty because it's reality and people want to believe what they think , not what is reality. If Vernon and co would've taken the boat, then they would've ended up getting back on the train, there's an option when Lee is talking to Christa and Omid to meet back at the train. the thing is that if Clementine didn't get kidnapped, Lee wouldn't of looked in the street and got bit, Ben wouldn't of died because they wouldn't of got on the balcony because they would've had a lot more time to get out because they had to go the morgue to find Vernon and Kenny wouldn't of got separated . Yes family is more important, but when you don't have family, you have to trust the ones you trust, and Clementine in a way betrayed that trust by believing a stranger over people she had know for a period of time.
I don't hate him. But I didn't have a reason to like him either.
Thank you so much for this information!
I mean, on the train when Lee tells Kenny that the plan is to look for her parents, Kenny says that's not the plan. Lee then says it's ours, meaning Lee and Clem. That sounded to me like it was something more than just making her feel good and Lee would leave the group if that's what it takes. If Lee was just trying to make Clem feel good, he wouldn't tell Kenny a fake plan, why would he do that? And that's fine, that is your choice to tell her directly but I did want to at least try so she could know one way or another.
Agreed, the Kenny situation seemed unrealistic, especially the one in the alley when Christa is looking down there and says nothing. If she saw him escape, she definitely would have said so. But my point is that we thought we saw Kenny die but he survived. We only heard her parents and, while it looked grim, you never know if someone saved them, but they dropped their phone or something. We just didn't know for sure.
Yes, he says that, which means he wanted Clem to come to him. I agree Lee probably didn't expect him to find us, but again after seeing the guy standing outside the mansion and that could be him, I wouldn't take any chances. And that's the reason that I think someone was awake; they can't all go to sleep with someone watching them. I don't care how tired they are, someone had to take watch.
Yeah, nobody saw her escape. It doesn't really make sense, but we do know from season 2 that Clem can be sneaky if she wants to be. Either that or there really wasn't a good vantage point to see the whole area. Maybe they just thought she was going in the backyard, they let her out before when she found the boat.
Still, there's 2 people up there and Clem only has Lee to protect her. She trusted them immediately. With Vernon, as soon as he saw that boat, he knew that was his best chance at survival. I also think he mentioned the train because he saw all the walkers that were following it and realized the city was about to be overrun. So he took the boat to escape the city. He tries to get Lee to give up Clem because he wants her to go with them on the boat to survive. I agree I didn't notice it either and was surprised when he stole the boat, but there is a lot of foreshadowing that he was looking for better alternatives than the shelter.
Oh, agreed completely. This is one of my favorite scenes, because Ben finally gets some character development and I finally felt bad for him. Even Kenny is moved and that rarely happens. But Ben still has to live with the fact that he doesn't know his family's status. I think that would have taken a toll on him if he had survived longer.
Never thought about it, but agreed. The train would be the next best option. The thing is Lee seems like a liar both ways, whether you lead her on, or tell her they are dead. She knows you can't possibly know that, and she doesn't know about the answering machine so she has no reason to believe Lee. Then the Stranger says they are there with him, supposedly a first-hand experience, which is more than Lee had with them. They might have used the train to get out of Savannah, actually, as Kenny taught Omid how to work it. But we don't know. Clem didn't know she didn't have a family, though. She was still hoping and someone told her they are still alive. So I would risk it too. Might have done it differently, but I would at least try.
You are such a liar...your a lot of thinking is just carry over from your previous posts. You should be grown enough to understand that feeding people to walkers is evil...even I would not do that to Kenny.
Guilty as charged!
You can say the same about a few of my longer posts because who has the time anymore?
Truth. But if I had to pick, those three would the most likely up to chop.
Np. I'd recommend studying the law.
You'd be surprised how useful it is, even for plebs(like me).