I see what you're trying to say, but Jane was definitely thinking of herself and not Clementine when she made that decision. She was depressed and haunted by her past and getting pregnant with Luke's child was the final straw for her. She could've stuck it out and made sure they were safe for as long as possible, I mean at the very least she could've communicated to Clem about it. But no, she lied to Clem and then kills herself. Clem could've ran into trouble on perimeter watch and needed help, or the rope could've snapped and walker Jane would attack Clem unawares.
Jane's suicide was an incredibly selfish and irresponsible act, so please dont act like Jane is a hero for abandoning the children like she did.
Jane was one of the best.
She was not selfish in hanging herself. I IN NO WAY SUPPORT SUICIDE, MIND YOU!!! Now, AJ was still a baby and b… morey the time Jane would've had her kid, he would still technically be a baby. Jane didn't want to have Clementine worrying about her and her child, as they were already low on food and trying to survive with two kids would drain resources. I wasn't happy with what Jane did, but think about it.
Because they also didn't have the proper medical equipment and medicine to help with her birth, there was a chance she would end up the same way Rebecca did and then Clementine would have TWO babies to take care of. You can't do that on your own - you have to eat too, or else you're all dead.
Jane was thinking about what was best for Clementine.
Look, if Jane didn't commit suicide, then she would be pregnant for nine months. AJ needs more food than Clementine or Jane alone, but if Jane is pregnant, then she's eating for two and requires more food, something they didn't have the luxury of. And if they had two babies, that'd be a drain on resources and they would all possibly end up dead.
There was also the risk of Jane dying and Clementine would have to take care of two babies! A CHILD TAKING CARE OF TWO BABIES! You really think that's the best for Clem? It's hard to take care of a baby on your own, but even harder to take care of two.
And Jane had sent Clementine out for a reason - normally they wouldn't check the perimeter so often, as we saw when Clementine speculated about it, so Jane knew there wouldn't be any problems. And Clementine would've heard the loud BANG of the walker slamming into the floor and she would've heard the growls and snarls of a Chomper. Clementine is young, she ain't stupid (thanks to Lee). Those are nothing compared to what could've happened if Jane didn't do what she did; she might go into labour when surrounded by walkers, she might end up slowing Clem and AJ down when they were in danger, they might end up with a bad group of people while Jane is pregnant and bad things could easily happen to both Jane and the baby, all things that could easily have them killed.
And I never said Jane was a hero; quit stuffing words down my throat. I am saying she considered all of her options and didn't want to burden Clementine further.
I see what you're trying to say, but Jane was definitely thinking of herself and not Clementine when she made that decision. She was depress… moreed and haunted by her past and getting pregnant with Luke's child was the final straw for her. She could've stuck it out and made sure they were safe for as long as possible, I mean at the very least she could've communicated to Clem about it. But no, she lied to Clem and then kills herself. Clem could've ran into trouble on perimeter watch and needed help, or the rope could've snapped and walker Jane would attack Clem unawares.
Jane's suicide was an incredibly selfish and irresponsible act, so please dont act like Jane is a hero for abandoning the children like she did.
I think you should post this in the under/over-rated thread
Didn't even know it's a thing. ;-;
Carlos suffered the worst from the derailed story.
I think Carver suffered more, but it's just me.
Personally, I wouldn't call the story "derailed", more like foggy or vague at least. I'm sure most of those assumptions of ours are just plain nitpicking and, by all means, we connect dots to make something bigger out of this; but maybe some of the little details are intentional, like placed for us to find. Anyway, finding hidden stuff is fun, especially while waiting.
Well, I think Carlos is underrated as a character
I've honestly been kinda tied on this general notion for a while now. At the very … moreleast, I think you should post this in the under/over-rated thread as well and I might even considered reviving/replacing my oldest thread for a similar purpose.
First, he was a single father. Sarah's never mentioned her mother, which might be a sight of Carlos raising her alone even before the apocalypse.
Actually, I've recently come to the conclusion that she may have been killed not too long ago, which likely ties into Carlos and Sarah's behavior in the face of danger.
It's implied they had lived within Carver's community for a longer time, presumably since the outbreak started, which would explain why the Cabin Group was so inexperienced and reckless when it came to surviving away from Howe's walls. Sarah's unpreparedness was not an individual case, the whole group was like this.
… [view original content]
You are acting like Jane's suicide was a selfless and altruistic act when it really wasn't. You're acting like Jane wanted to spare Clem from an extra two mouths to feed when in reality Jane was haunted by her past and didn't want to live anymore.
The majority of people have accepted that Jane was an awful guardian and a selfish individual. She really didn't consider all of her options and make the best decision for everyone.... she was selfish and depressed and couldn't handle the pressure of being pregnant so she took the easy way out. She was weak and her decision was reckless and irresponsible despite the way you're trying to spin it.
Okay, no you DO NOT get what I'm saying. =_=
Look, if Jane didn't commit suicide, then she would be pregnant for nine months. AJ needs mo… morere food than Clementine or Jane alone, but if Jane is pregnant, then she's eating for two and requires more food, something they didn't have the luxury of. And if they had two babies, that'd be a drain on resources and they would all possibly end up dead.
There was also the risk of Jane dying and Clementine would have to take care of two babies! A CHILD TAKING CARE OF TWO BABIES! You really think that's the best for Clem? It's hard to take care of a baby on your own, but even harder to take care of two.
And Jane had sent Clementine out for a reason - normally they wouldn't check the perimeter so often, as we saw when Clementine speculated about it, so Jane knew there wouldn't be any problems. And Clementine would've heard the loud BANG of the walker slamming into the floor and she would've heard the… [view original content]
Yeah, you just have to look for it within the last 10 or so pages.
I think Carver suffered more, but it's just me.
Okay then, among the Cabin Group, Carlos suffered the most.
Personally, I wouldn't call the story "derailed", more like foggy or vague at least. I'm sure most of those assumptions of ours are just plain nitpicking and, by all means, we connect dots to make something bigger out of this; but maybe some of the little details are intentional, like placed for us to find. Anyway, finding hidden stuff is fun, especially while waiting.
I don't think so: they clearly set things up to be about the Cabin Group and their history with Carver, with the undertones that they've done things they're not proud of in response to his increasingly dangerous behavior. Luke, Alvin, and Carlos in particular had a special beef with Carver and were often presented at the forefront whenever he was involved, yet they ended up being the least developed of the group because we never really spend much time elaborating on the vague hints that Luke was Carver's partner or at least had a fair amount of pull amongst the inner circle, Alvin may've been friends with him before he found out about what he wanted with Rebecca, and Carlos has done things that are "stupid or not nice" in desperation to protect Sarah from Carver. Add in evidence of rewritting and scenes being cut and it becomes even more obvious that this was originally supposed to be explained before In Cold Blood become The Kenny Show In Harm's Way.
I think you should post this in the under/over-rated thread
Didn't even know it's a thing. ;-;
Carlos suffered the worst from … morethe derailed story.
I think Carver suffered more, but it's just me.
Personally, I wouldn't call the story "derailed", more like foggy or vague at least. I'm sure most of those assumptions of ours are just plain nitpicking and, by all means, we connect dots to make something bigger out of this; but maybe some of the little details are intentional, like placed for us to find. Anyway, finding hidden stuff is fun, especially while waiting.
Dude, you say you get what I'm saying when you don't at all. And once again, quite stuffing words down my throat.
It was stupid, but what Jane did was better for everyone around her. She knew Clementine would be able to take care of herself as well as AJ, she taught the kid herself. Jane wasn't depressed; she showed no signs of it. Haunted? Maybe, but that wouldn't drive someone to suicide after discovering she was pregnant.
Anyways, you're always gonna think she was stupid so I'm just gonna stop.
You are acting like Jane's suicide was a selfless and altruistic act when it really wasn't. You're acting like Jane wanted to spare Clem fro… morem an extra two mouths to feed when in reality Jane was haunted by her past and didn't want to live anymore.
The majority of people have accepted that Jane was an awful guardian and a selfish individual. She really didn't consider all of her options and make the best decision for everyone.... she was selfish and depressed and couldn't handle the pressure of being pregnant so she took the easy way out. She was weak and her decision was reckless and irresponsible despite the way you're trying to spin it.
Okay, no you DO NOT get what I'm saying. =_=
Look, if Jane didn't commit suicide, then she would be pregnant for nine months. AJ needs mo… morere food than Clementine or Jane alone, but if Jane is pregnant, then she's eating for two and requires more food, something they didn't have the luxury of. And if they had two babies, that'd be a drain on resources and they would all possibly end up dead.
There was also the risk of Jane dying and Clementine would have to take care of two babies! A CHILD TAKING CARE OF TWO BABIES! You really think that's the best for Clem? It's hard to take care of a baby on your own, but even harder to take care of two.
And Jane had sent Clementine out for a reason - normally they wouldn't check the perimeter so often, as we saw when Clementine speculated about it, so Jane knew there wouldn't be any problems. And Clementine would've heard the loud BANG of the walker slamming into the floor and she would've heard the… [view original content]
Dude. I get what you're trying to say, I just dont agree with it. Stop acting like i dont have a clue, it's getting pretty old.
You're refusing to acknowledge obvious facts while trying to give Jane a positive spin when she was clearly written to be a selfish and irresponsible guardian for Clem. Even if Clem might have been spared taking care of 2 babies, that wasn't why Jane killed herself. I can't believe you said Jane showed no signs of being depressed, which is simply not the case. Ever since we learned about her past shes been depressed, and it only got worse after Luke died.
No point in discussing with you any further because you're just going to cry about me "shoving words down your throat". Thanks so much for replying to me in the first place, later!
Dude, you say you get what I'm saying when you don't at all. And once again, quite stuffing words down my throat.
It was stupid, but what… more Jane did was better for everyone around her. She knew Clementine would be able to take care of herself as well as AJ, she taught the kid herself. Jane wasn't depressed; she showed no signs of it. Haunted? Maybe, but that wouldn't drive someone to suicide after discovering she was pregnant.
Anyways, you're always gonna think she was stupid so I'm just gonna stop.
I love S2, but I think it tried to bite more than it could. Howe's history/Carvers little kingdom has been told from prisoners' perspective, which left many questions unanswered and therefore, we passed over a lot of stuff which had potential to be really important; and for many Carver turned out to be a shitty wannabe villain, which IMO is just pure blasphemy.
The thing that's been bugging me the most is Carver's buddy George, whose death was briefly mentioned, even though his story seemed to be serious. Carver basically killed Alvin for it, and no one cared to give a fuck.
Didn't even know it's a thing. ;-;
Yeah, you just have to look for it within the last 10 or so pages.
I think Carver suffered … moremore, but it's just me.
Okay then, among the Cabin Group, Carlos suffered the most.
Personally, I wouldn't call the story "derailed", more like foggy or vague at least. I'm sure most of those assumptions of ours are just plain nitpicking and, by all means, we connect dots to make something bigger out of this; but maybe some of the little details are intentional, like placed for us to find. Anyway, finding hidden stuff is fun, especially while waiting.
I don't think so: they clearly set things up to be about the Cabin Group and their history with Carver, with the undertones that they've done things they're not proud of in response to his increasingly dangerous behavior. Luke, Alvin, and Carlos in particular had a special beef with Carver and were often presented at the forefront whene… [view original content]
I love S2, but I think it tried to bite more than it could.
Oh, definitely. There were too many characters at once, for one thing. And with Kenny and Jane being put on pedestals and sapping up screentime/focus, that made things even worse when it was likely supposed to hide it.
Howe's history/Carvers little kingdom has been told from prisoners' perspective, which left many questions unanswered and therefore, we passed over a lot of stuff which had potential to be really important; and for many Carver turned out to be a shitty wannabe villain, which IMO is just pure blasphemy.
And that's the majority of why In Harm's Way is the weakest of the Season.
The thing that's been bugging me the most is Carver's buddy George, whose death was briefly mentioned, even though his story seemed to be serious. Carver basically killed Alvin for it, and no one cared to give a fuck.
I actually wrote something up explaining everything I've picked up about it, so I'll have to get you back when I eventually find it. Bonnie does somewhat explain more on it if Alvin died at the Ski Lodge.
I love S2, but I think it tried to bite more than it could. Howe's history/Carvers little kingdom has been told from prisoners' perspective,… more which left many questions unanswered and therefore, we passed over a lot of stuff which had potential to be really important; and for many Carver turned out to be a shitty wannabe villain, which IMO is just pure blasphemy.
The thing that's been bugging me the most is Carver's buddy George, whose death was briefly mentioned, even though his story seemed to be serious. Carver basically killed Alvin for it, and no one cared to give a fuck.
And that's the majority of why In Harm's Way is the weakest of the Season.
I strongly disagree. Telling a story from prisoner's point of view played its role very well. It felt restrictive and even annoying at times, which is realistic, logical and totally understandable, as our protagonist finds herself in unfamiliar, hostile enviromment, lead by someone who had killed her friends and imprisoned her. I believe we were supposed to want more and demand answers, but from little girl's perspective that was simply unachievable. This is a thing which people skip when talking how unrealistic playing as Clem was, as they prefer to talk about that wind turbine.
What was needed to flesh out Carver's community and give us details was a DLC which had never happened. I think 400 days characters would be perfect for it, but it's all in the past now.
Bonnie does somewhat explain more on it if Alvin died at the Ski Lodge.
"He might not have meant to, but George died all the same." It just confirms that killing George was an accident and Bonnie understands why Carver tracked down the group. I guess it's reasonable why there's no more of it, as Clem doesn't care. We can still dig in it, but it's not the same. Some people don't like to waste their time looking for details.
Hovewer, if the game had Carver sit down and explain this George-Alvin case, I think many people would treat Carver differently and see why he has "changed" once the CG is back. But then again, why would Carver tell this girl a story about some random dude? If their group stayed instead of marching away through the horde, Carver could've done it eventually and we would get our answers, but... It wasn't our call to make.
I love S2, but I think it tried to bite more than it could.
Oh, definitely. There were too many characters at once, for one thing. A… morend with Kenny and Jane being put on pedestals and sapping up screentime/focus, that made things even worse when it was likely supposed to hide it.
Howe's history/Carvers little kingdom has been told from prisoners' perspective, which left many questions unanswered and therefore, we passed over a lot of stuff which had potential to be really important; and for many Carver turned out to be a shitty wannabe villain, which IMO is just pure blasphemy.
And that's the majority of why In Harm's Way is the weakest of the Season.
The thing that's been bugging me the most is Carver's buddy George, whose death was briefly mentioned, even though his story seemed to be serious. Carver basically killed Alvin for it, and no one cared to give a fuck.
I actually wrote something up explaining eve… [view original content]
I strongly disagree. Telling a story from prisoner's point of view played its role very well. It felt restrictive and even annoying at times, which is realistic, logical and totally understandable, as our protagonist finds herself in unfamiliar, hostile enviromment, lead by someone who had killed her friends and imprisoned her. I believe we were supposed to want more and demand answers, but from little girl's perspective that was simply unachievable.
I suppose you can look at it that way. Still, it's an example of where realism and cinematogrophy can be forgotten in favor of "fun" and gameplay. It's also an example of how hype can backlash, though you can say that about a lot of things in that Season.
This is a thing which people skip when talking how unrealistic playing as Clem was, as they prefer to talk about that wind turbine.
See, I feel like that's an idea that probably looked good on paper, but in execution...
Carlos: Does anyone know how to do this?
Sarita:{Shrugs}
Carlos: Great.
Clementine: I can do it.
Carlos: Okay. We'll watch your back.
Yeah, I definitely see that working a lot better if they actually put in more animation effort and expository dialogue into it, cuz that's literally how it goes in the actual game over the span of 9 seconds. Btw, here's that underrated topic I mentioned.
What was needed to flesh out Carver's community and give us details was a DLC which had never happened. I think 400 days characters would be perfect for it, but it's all in the past now.
Hell, we need a DLC for the Howe's Russian Ski Cabin Group in general.
"He might not have meant to, but George died all the same." It just confirms that killing George was an accident and Bonnie understands why Carver tracked down the group. I guess it's reasonable why there's no more of it, as Clem doesn't care. We can still dig in it, but it's not the same. Some people don't like to waste their time looking for details.
Hovewer, if the game had Carver sit down and explain this George-Alvin case, I think many people would treat Carver differently and see why he has "changed" once the CG is back. But then again, why would Carver tell this girl a story about some random dude? If their group stayed instead of marching away through the horde, Carver could've done it eventually and we would get our answers, but... It wasn't our call to make.
I guess but its still notable that that's the closest we get to follow up on what was supposed to be a backstory about how Carver wasn't always an egotistical psychopath and how the Cabin Group did things they're not proud of in the name of getting away from his growing oppression. At least Alvin is somewhat understandable in his limited screentime despite his nominal importance because there's relatively clear reasons given for it but Rebecca, Luke, and especially Carlos suffer from not getting any not only because but because we lack much context on the motivations of what is supposed to be the principal members of the group:
Carver claims that Luke wasn't to be trusted but it's pointless because their relationship is never expanded on and Luke is firmly established as being heroic by not only Nick and Bonnie's admiration, but his own behavior.
Rebecca is probably the most average member of the Cabin Group since she gets screentime and appropriate for her plot relevance, yet she usually disliked because her character is so badly portrayed. She's such a bitch at first that it makes the obviously intended initial hatred of Nick seem a bit distracted and then the sudden 180 she does in the next episode is so badly timed that there are people who stated they were mean to her and wanted to ditch the Alvins out of spite. And since we're never really given a direct(or for that matter, consistent) explanation for what exactly happened between her, Carver, and Alvin, it's a little hard to really feel for her beyond her the fact that she made-a-mistake/got-herself-raped and now she feels guilty that everyone else had to suffer for it.
Not only Carlos supposedly did some crazy and "not nice" things to get Rebecca and Sarah to safety(which Luke and Sarah suspiciously specific about), but he and Carver's descriptions of each other suggest that they hold each other to high regards due to some not so different kinship. Unfortunately, because Carver ended up being little more than a archetype and Carlos apparently had many of his scenes completely hijacked by Kenny, he's the target of a lot of derision because he's reduced to a strawman for every character we're supposed to like(or hate in Carver's case) to prove wrong or embarass despite the fact that he clearly means well and is actually in the right on a few things.
As you said before, the Season bit off more than it can chew not because it couldn't do any of it, but because it lacked focus and consistency in regards to what it supposed to be about and spent more time banking to nostalgia, hyping up fights/rivalries that don't even go anywhere, and shilling what should be supporting characters for the sake of pandering to the immediate audience. It's really sad that Nick, Sarah, and technically Jane have more to them than Luke, Carlos, and Carver despite having what was intended to be lesser roles.
It tells me that the stuff we're supposed to focus on were treated as if they were complex for the sake of it rather than because it actually was when the story was finalized.
And that's the majority of why In Harm's Way is the weakest of the Season.
I strongly disagree. Telling a story from prisoner's poin… moret of view played its role very well. It felt restrictive and even annoying at times, which is realistic, logical and totally understandable, as our protagonist finds herself in unfamiliar, hostile enviromment, lead by someone who had killed her friends and imprisoned her. I believe we were supposed to want more and demand answers, but from little girl's perspective that was simply unachievable. This is a thing which people skip when talking how unrealistic playing as Clem was, as they prefer to talk about that wind turbine.
What was needed to flesh out Carver's community and give us details was a DLC which had never happened. I think 400 days characters would be perfect for it, but it's all in the past now.
Bonnie does somewhat explain more on it if Alvin died at the Ski Lodge.
"He might … [view original content]
Can people stop implying that Jane is the worst guardian, yes she has done stupid stuff and been selfish, but she always had Clementine's back when she needed it. Jane taught Clem survival skills and teached her how to trust knowone. Jane is excactly like Clem in S3. Clem has learnt a lot from Jane.
Yikes at people saying Carlos. Like Sarah is mentally ill, like it was super obvious from what he said about her and how she acted at times, her panic attacks for example. Like yes she should have learned more skills eventually, but forcing her to do so when she isn't ready, would most likely only cause her to panic again. Carlos treated her like she needed to be treated, same as Rebecca, with kindness and patience.
Sadly in the real world they're mentally ill people with horribly abusive parents, who aren't supportive of their kids, and only make them feel worse about having problems like that. Honestly it was nice to see Carlos wasn't like that at all.
Can people stop implying that Jane is the worst guardian, yes she has done stupid stuff and been selfish, but she always had Clementine's ba… moreck when she needed it. Jane taught Clem survival skills and teached her how to trust knowone. Jane is excactly like Clem in S3. Clem has learnt a lot from Jane.
Yikes at people saying Carlos. Like Sarah is mentally ill, like it was super obvious from what he said about her and how she acted at times,… more her panic attacks for example. Like yes she should have learned more skills eventually, but forcing her to do so when she isn't ready, would most likely only cause her to panic again. Carlos treated her like she needed to be treated, same as Rebecca, with kindness and patience.
Sadly in the real world they're mentally ill people with horribly abusive parents, who aren't supportive of their kids, and only make them feel worse about having problems like that. Honestly it was nice to see Carlos wasn't like that at all.
Valid points, friend. As much fun as it is, I'm starting to think (mainly because of ANF) it's just sad that we have to make up backstories and fill up characters to look for their redeeming qualities and understand their motives, basically doing TT's homework, sometimes try to desperate justify actions which were just neglected or poorly written. I agree that Kenny overwhelmed and crippled most of S2 characters, especially those who had potential and were really good in terms of the story. However I'm a little hesitant here 'cause Kenny is one of my favorites; but still, I can see the obvious cons of his return and it makes my wonder how the story could've changed if he didn't appear in S2.
It tells me that the stuff we're supposed to focus on were treated as if they were complex for the sake of it rather than because it actually was when the story was finalized.
Exactly, "illusion of choice" evolved into the illusion of complexity, but once you realize it you accept it I guess. Nothing's perfect. I have had my doubts here and there, but overall I enjoyed S2 and I just wish more people would.
I strongly disagree. Telling a story from prisoner's point of view played its role very well. It felt restrictive and even annoying at times… more, which is realistic, logical and totally understandable, as our protagonist finds herself in unfamiliar, hostile enviromment, lead by someone who had killed her friends and imprisoned her. I believe we were supposed to want more and demand answers, but from little girl's perspective that was simply unachievable.
I suppose you can look at it that way. Still, it's an example of where realism and cinematogrophy can be forgotten in favor of "fun" and gameplay. It's also an example of how hype can backlash, though you can say that about a lot of things in that Season.
This is a thing which people skip when talking how unrealistic playing as Clem was, as they prefer to talk about that wind turbine.
See, I feel like that's an idea that probably looked good on paper, but in execution...
… [view original content]
She may have had some PTSD, but not depression. She wouldn't be able to move on so easily with depression.
Jane wasn't suffering from depression because, although she could sometimes be dark, she spoke about things only after having pressure applied. She was more haunted by memories rather than suffering depression because of them. When someone is depressed, they are frank and dark and, quite plainly, brooding. When Jane was talking about leaving Sarah behind, she had said that she's seen it happen before. She didn't want to face th memory again, because it scared and scarred her. It was PTSD, not depression. And I should know the difference, as I have and still do, suffer from both.
Dude. I get what you're trying to say, I just dont agree with it. Stop acting like i dont have a clue, it's getting pretty old.
You're re… morefusing to acknowledge obvious facts while trying to give Jane a positive spin when she was clearly written to be a selfish and irresponsible guardian for Clem. Even if Clem might have been spared taking care of 2 babies, that wasn't why Jane killed herself. I can't believe you said Jane showed no signs of being depressed, which is simply not the case. Ever since we learned about her past shes been depressed, and it only got worse after Luke died.
No point in discussing with you any further because you're just going to cry about me "shoving words down your throat". Thanks so much for replying to me in the first place, later!
She may have had some PTSD, but not depression. She wouldn't be able to move on so easily with depression.
Jane wasn't suffering from dep… moreression because, although she could sometimes be dark, she spoke about things only after having pressure applied. She was more haunted by memories rather than suffering depression because of them. When someone is depressed, they are frank and dark and, quite plainly, brooding. When Jane was talking about leaving Sarah behind, she had said that she's seen it happen before. She didn't want to face th memory again, because it scared and scarred her. It was PTSD, not depression. And I should know the difference, as I have and still do, suffer from both.
Jane is to-the-point and honest. If she was brooding and dark, she would be a complete loner and hate just about everyone. She also wouldn't be keeping her opinions about Kenny to herself, and she would've looked out for her own skin at the end of Season 2.
Don't know if that was sarcasm or not. And I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just saying I know the difference between the two.
She may have had some PTSD, but not depression. She wouldn't be able to move on so easily with depression.
I'm pretty sure PTSD can … morelead to depression. Hell, just look at Sarah.
When someone is depressed, they are frank and dark and, quite plainly, brooding.
Ah, so how she normally is? Maybe you're right after all!
And I should know the difference, as I have and still do, suffer from both.
Oh, you poor thing.
Jane is to-the-point and honest. If she was brooding and dark, she would be a complete loner and hate just about everyone. She also wouldn't… more be keeping her opinions about Kenny to herself, and she would've looked out for her own skin at the end of Season 2.
Don't know if that was sarcasm or not. And I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just saying I know the difference between the two.
Yikes at people saying Carlos. Like Sarah is mentally ill, like it was super obvious from what he said about her and how she acted at times,… more her panic attacks for example. Like yes she should have learned more skills eventually, but forcing her to do so when she isn't ready, would most likely only cause her to panic again. Carlos treated her like she needed to be treated, same as Rebecca, with kindness and patience.
Sadly in the real world they're mentally ill people with horribly abusive parents, who aren't supportive of their kids, and only make them feel worse about having problems like that. Honestly it was nice to see Carlos wasn't like that at all.
Oh, who fucking knows. It's entirely possible that her PTSD was added after he left and it's just a unorthodox idea that wasn't used the best. Or maybe he really did intend for her to have it or some other disadvantage and it just went to waste like many of the original story ideas. I'd like to know half of what he and Nick Breckon had planned in their original concepts before the executives and outside writers came in.
I just thought that she was sheltered for too long.
And I was expecting for Clem to have some sort of a lil sister bond with Sarah (because of how innocence she is) and reveal & teach her stuff. But alas, nada.
Oh, who fucking knows. It's entirely possible that her PTSD was added after he left and it's just a unorthodox idea that wasn't used the bes… moret. Or maybe he really did intend for her to have it or some other disadvantage and it just went to waste like many of the original story ideas. I'd like to know half of what he and Nick Breckon had planned in their original concepts before the executives and outside writers came in.
That's what a lot of us thought. But it turns out that Carlos sheltered her because she had PTSD, which is why he wanted keep away from as much conflict as possible and is seen attempting to reassure her when trouble starts brewing: it was an extreme but well-intentioned method of keeping her from being triggered. It's somewhat inferrible that Carver may've known this as well but wanted to the opposite extreme for the sake of keeping her in line.
Oh, but no, we had to further hype up Jane with a strawman argument that involved undressing and villifying Sarah. ...Without actually having her DO anything that contributes to that idea--Oops!
I just thought that she was sheltered for too long.
And I was expecting for Clem to have some sort of a lil sister bond with Sarah (because of how innocence she is) and reveal & teach her stuff. But alas, nada.
I mean I'm mentally ill and the way Sarah acts sometimes reminds me of myself, so I really believe she was. I know a lot of other people can relate to her strongly too. So it's really scary tbh to see people what wanted someone like Sarah dead so badly or the cruel things people said about her, cause it's like wow if these people feel this way about her, how do they feel about real actual mentally ill people like me?
I just want to say that Carlos was really not such a terrible guardian. I just read an old Game Informer interview where Telltale says that Sarah basically had really bad PTSD and that her behavior was due to the state of the world and not her father's sheltering behavior. Carlos knew her limitations and tried his best to keep her safe and happy. Sarah was not Clem and I'm not sure Sarah ever would have been able to be fully competent in this world, even if Carlos did meet a Chuck-like figure. Carlos was very kind and patient to Sarah and that's what she needed, whereas Clem needed honesty and training.
Comments
I see what you're trying to say, but Jane was definitely thinking of herself and not Clementine when she made that decision. She was depressed and haunted by her past and getting pregnant with Luke's child was the final straw for her. She could've stuck it out and made sure they were safe for as long as possible, I mean at the very least she could've communicated to Clem about it. But no, she lied to Clem and then kills herself. Clem could've ran into trouble on perimeter watch and needed help, or the rope could've snapped and walker Jane would attack Clem unawares.
Jane's suicide was an incredibly selfish and irresponsible act, so please dont act like Jane is a hero for abandoning the children like she did.
Okay, no you DO NOT get what I'm saying. =_=
Look, if Jane didn't commit suicide, then she would be pregnant for nine months. AJ needs more food than Clementine or Jane alone, but if Jane is pregnant, then she's eating for two and requires more food, something they didn't have the luxury of. And if they had two babies, that'd be a drain on resources and they would all possibly end up dead.
There was also the risk of Jane dying and Clementine would have to take care of two babies! A CHILD TAKING CARE OF TWO BABIES! You really think that's the best for Clem? It's hard to take care of a baby on your own, but even harder to take care of two.
And Jane had sent Clementine out for a reason - normally they wouldn't check the perimeter so often, as we saw when Clementine speculated about it, so Jane knew there wouldn't be any problems. And Clementine would've heard the loud BANG of the walker slamming into the floor and she would've heard the growls and snarls of a Chomper. Clementine is young, she ain't stupid (thanks to Lee). Those are nothing compared to what could've happened if Jane didn't do what she did; she might go into labour when surrounded by walkers, she might end up slowing Clem and AJ down when they were in danger, they might end up with a bad group of people while Jane is pregnant and bad things could easily happen to both Jane and the baby, all things that could easily have them killed.
And I never said Jane was a hero; quit stuffing words down my throat. I am saying she considered all of her options and didn't want to burden Clementine further.
Didn't even know it's a thing. ;-;
I think Carver suffered more, but it's just me.
Personally, I wouldn't call the story "derailed", more like foggy or vague at least. I'm sure most of those assumptions of ours are just plain nitpicking and, by all means, we connect dots to make something bigger out of this; but maybe some of the little details are intentional, like placed for us to find. Anyway, finding hidden stuff is fun, especially while waiting.
You are acting like Jane's suicide was a selfless and altruistic act when it really wasn't. You're acting like Jane wanted to spare Clem from an extra two mouths to feed when in reality Jane was haunted by her past and didn't want to live anymore.
The majority of people have accepted that Jane was an awful guardian and a selfish individual. She really didn't consider all of her options and make the best decision for everyone.... she was selfish and depressed and couldn't handle the pressure of being pregnant so she took the easy way out. She was weak and her decision was reckless and irresponsible despite the way you're trying to spin it.
It's not mutually exclusive, mate. It's not always black and white.
Yeah, you just have to look for it within the last 10 or so pages.
Okay then, among the Cabin Group, Carlos suffered the most.
I don't think so: they clearly set things up to be about the Cabin Group and their history with Carver, with the undertones that they've done things they're not proud of in response to his increasingly dangerous behavior. Luke, Alvin, and Carlos in particular had a special beef with Carver and were often presented at the forefront whenever he was involved, yet they ended up being the least developed of the group because we never really spend much time elaborating on the vague hints that Luke was Carver's partner or at least had a fair amount of pull amongst the inner circle, Alvin may've been friends with him before he found out about what he wanted with Rebecca, and Carlos has done things that are "stupid or not nice" in desperation to protect Sarah from Carver. Add in evidence of rewritting and scenes being cut and it becomes even more obvious that this was originally supposed to be explained before In Cold Blood become The Kenny Show In Harm's Way.
Dude, you say you get what I'm saying when you don't at all. And once again, quite stuffing words down my throat.
It was stupid, but what Jane did was better for everyone around her. She knew Clementine would be able to take care of herself as well as AJ, she taught the kid herself. Jane wasn't depressed; she showed no signs of it. Haunted? Maybe, but that wouldn't drive someone to suicide after discovering she was pregnant.
Anyways, you're always gonna think she was stupid so I'm just gonna stop.
Coathangers are a thing...
Dude. I get what you're trying to say, I just dont agree with it. Stop acting like i dont have a clue, it's getting pretty old.
You're refusing to acknowledge obvious facts while trying to give Jane a positive spin when she was clearly written to be a selfish and irresponsible guardian for Clem. Even if Clem might have been spared taking care of 2 babies, that wasn't why Jane killed herself. I can't believe you said Jane showed no signs of being depressed, which is simply not the case. Ever since we learned about her past shes been depressed, and it only got worse after Luke died.
No point in discussing with you any further because you're just going to cry about me "shoving words down your throat". Thanks so much for replying to me in the first place, later!
I love S2, but I think it tried to bite more than it could. Howe's history/Carvers little kingdom has been told from prisoners' perspective, which left many questions unanswered and therefore, we passed over a lot of stuff which had potential to be really important; and for many Carver turned out to be a shitty wannabe villain, which IMO is just pure blasphemy.
The thing that's been bugging me the most is Carver's buddy George, whose death was briefly mentioned, even though his story seemed to be serious. Carver basically killed Alvin for it, and no one cared to give a fuck.
Oh, definitely. There were too many characters at once, for one thing. And with Kenny and Jane being put on pedestals and sapping up screentime/focus, that made things even worse when it was likely supposed to hide it.
And that's the majority of why In Harm's Way is the weakest of the Season.
I actually wrote something up explaining everything I've picked up about it, so I'll have to get you back when I eventually find it. Bonnie does somewhat explain more on it if Alvin died at the Ski Lodge.
I strongly disagree. Telling a story from prisoner's point of view played its role very well. It felt restrictive and even annoying at times, which is realistic, logical and totally understandable, as our protagonist finds herself in unfamiliar, hostile enviromment, lead by someone who had killed her friends and imprisoned her. I believe we were supposed to want more and demand answers, but from little girl's perspective that was simply unachievable. This is a thing which people skip when talking how unrealistic playing as Clem was, as they prefer to talk about that wind turbine.
What was needed to flesh out Carver's community and give us details was a DLC which had never happened. I think 400 days characters would be perfect for it, but it's all in the past now.
"He might not have meant to, but George died all the same." It just confirms that killing George was an accident and Bonnie understands why Carver tracked down the group. I guess it's reasonable why there's no more of it, as Clem doesn't care. We can still dig in it, but it's not the same. Some people don't like to waste their time looking for details.
Hovewer, if the game had Carver sit down and explain this George-Alvin case, I think many people would treat Carver differently and see why he has "changed" once the CG is back. But then again, why would Carver tell this girl a story about some random dude? If their group stayed instead of marching away through the horde, Carver could've done it eventually and we would get our answers, but... It wasn't our call to make.
I suppose you can look at it that way. Still, it's an example of where realism and cinematogrophy can be forgotten in favor of "fun" and gameplay. It's also an example of how hype can backlash, though you can say that about a lot of things in that Season.
See, I feel like that's an idea that probably looked good on paper, but in execution...
Carlos: Does anyone know how to do this?
Sarita:{Shrugs}
Carlos: Great.
Clementine: I can do it.
Carlos: Okay. We'll watch your back.
Yeah, I definitely see that working a lot better if they actually put in more animation effort and expository dialogue into it, cuz that's literally how it goes in the actual game over the span of 9 seconds. Btw, here's that underrated topic I mentioned.
Hell, we need a DLC for the Howe's Russian Ski Cabin Group in general.
I guess but its still notable that that's the closest we get to follow up on what was supposed to be a backstory about how Carver wasn't always an egotistical psychopath and how the Cabin Group did things they're not proud of in the name of getting away from his growing oppression. At least Alvin is somewhat understandable in his limited screentime despite his nominal importance because there's relatively clear reasons given for it but Rebecca, Luke, and especially Carlos suffer from not getting any not only because but because we lack much context on the motivations of what is supposed to be the principal members of the group:
As you said before, the Season bit off more than it can chew not because it couldn't do any of it, but because it lacked focus and consistency in regards to what it supposed to be about and spent more time banking to nostalgia, hyping up fights/rivalries that don't even go anywhere, and shilling what should be supporting characters for the sake of pandering to the immediate audience. It's really sad that Nick, Sarah, and technically Jane have more to them than Luke, Carlos, and Carver despite having what was intended to be lesser roles.
It tells me that the stuff we're supposed to focus on were treated as if they were complex for the sake of it rather than because it actually was when the story was finalized.
I will never understand all the hype about Jane. She's a joke.
Can people stop implying that Jane is the worst guardian, yes she has done stupid stuff and been selfish, but she always had Clementine's back when she needed it. Jane taught Clem survival skills and teached her how to trust knowone. Jane is excactly like Clem in S3. Clem has learnt a lot from Jane.
Yikes at people saying Carlos. Like Sarah is mentally ill, like it was super obvious from what he said about her and how she acted at times, her panic attacks for example. Like yes she should have learned more skills eventually, but forcing her to do so when she isn't ready, would most likely only cause her to panic again. Carlos treated her like she needed to be treated, same as Rebecca, with kindness and patience.
Sadly in the real world they're mentally ill people with horribly abusive parents, who aren't supportive of their kids, and only make them feel worse about having problems like that. Honestly it was nice to see Carlos wasn't like that at all.
Honestly, that's where she should've left it.
And that's why ANF!Clementine sucks!
Agreed. I just wish we had more time with them being happy and positive amongst everyone.
That's why I want MY Clementine back!
Valid points, friend. As much fun as it is, I'm starting to think (mainly because of ANF) it's just sad that we have to make up backstories and fill up characters to look for their redeeming qualities and understand their motives, basically doing TT's homework, sometimes try to desperate justify actions which were just neglected or poorly written. I agree that Kenny overwhelmed and crippled most of S2 characters, especially those who had potential and were really good in terms of the story. However I'm a little hesitant here 'cause Kenny is one of my favorites; but still, I can see the obvious cons of his return and it makes my wonder how the story could've changed if he didn't appear in S2.
Exactly, "illusion of choice" evolved into the illusion of complexity, but once you realize it you accept it I guess. Nothing's perfect. I have had my doubts here and there, but overall I enjoyed S2 and I just wish more people would.
She may have had some PTSD, but not depression. She wouldn't be able to move on so easily with depression.
Jane wasn't suffering from depression because, although she could sometimes be dark, she spoke about things only after having pressure applied. She was more haunted by memories rather than suffering depression because of them. When someone is depressed, they are frank and dark and, quite plainly, brooding. When Jane was talking about leaving Sarah behind, she had said that she's seen it happen before. She didn't want to face th memory again, because it scared and scarred her. It was PTSD, not depression. And I should know the difference, as I have and still do, suffer from both.
I'm pretty sure PTSD can lead to depression. Hell, just look at Sarah.
Ah, so how she normally is? Maybe you're right after all!
Oh, you poor thing.
Jane is to-the-point and honest. If she was brooding and dark, she would be a complete loner and hate just about everyone. She also wouldn't be keeping her opinions about Kenny to herself, and she would've looked out for her own skin at the end of Season 2.
Don't know if that was sarcasm or not. And I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just saying I know the difference between the two.
I know - I use them to hang my clothes.
I have no idea in how the hell that relates to anything.
He means in terms of abortion.
Not sure what the first one is responding to, but I was being serious when you said you've suffered from both.
I'll be the worst guardian if you all need one
Oh, lord, you are sick! And NOT in a good way!
Lord, that's really a thing???
It's usually used in terms of a joke, but yeah
Sorry to spoil your innocence
Was Sarah originally supposed to be mentally ill?
I don't think this was Sean's intention before he left TWDG S2 to the new writers.
Oh, who fucking knows. It's entirely possible that her PTSD was added after he left and it's just a unorthodox idea that wasn't used the best. Or maybe he really did intend for her to have it or some other disadvantage and it just went to waste like many of the original story ideas. I'd like to know half of what he and Nick Breckon had planned in their original concepts before the executives and outside writers came in.
You can call her "Mommy?"
I just thought that she was sheltered for too long.
And I was expecting for Clem to have some sort of a lil sister bond with Sarah (because of how innocence she is) and reveal & teach her stuff. But alas, nada.
That's what a lot of us thought. But it turns out that Carlos sheltered her because she had PTSD, which is why he wanted keep away from as much conflict as possible and is seen attempting to reassure her when trouble starts brewing: it was an extreme but well-intentioned method of keeping her from being triggered. It's somewhat inferrible that Carver may've known this as well but wanted to the opposite extreme for the sake of keeping her in line.
Oh, but no, we had to further hype up Jane with a strawman argument that involved undressing and villifying Sarah. ...Without actually having her DO anything that contributes to that idea--Oops!
I mean I'm mentally ill and the way Sarah acts sometimes reminds me of myself, so I really believe she was. I know a lot of other people can relate to her strongly too. So it's really scary tbh to see people what wanted someone like Sarah dead so badly or the cruel things people said about her, cause it's like wow if these people feel this way about her, how do they feel about real actual mentally ill people like me?
I just want to say that Carlos was really not such a terrible guardian. I just read an old Game Informer interview where Telltale says that Sarah basically had really bad PTSD and that her behavior was due to the state of the world and not her father's sheltering behavior. Carlos knew her limitations and tried his best to keep her safe and happy. Sarah was not Clem and I'm not sure Sarah ever would have been able to be fully competent in this world, even if Carlos did meet a Chuck-like figure. Carlos was very kind and patient to Sarah and that's what she needed, whereas Clem needed honesty and training.
Is that your kink or something?
Sacrifice. Idk man sorry lol have a good day
Jane is by far the worst guardian. And lee is the best