Was Kenny's return the end of realism in the Walking Dead?
Hi, thought I'd make a topic for discussion here and ask if Kenny's return in A House Divided was the point where realism died in the Walking Dead.
Season 1 did a near flawless job of portraying a realistic and harsh world, where anyone could die at any moment and it left you on the edge of your seat. Other than the odd moment (Clem dragging Lee into the jewellery store) Season 1 was great at this.
400 Days kept this theme up as well, which had me hyped for the direction of Season 2 and too me, All That Remains was the last truly great episode of The Walking Dead Game. Clem had been separated from Christa and Omid was dead, she was on her own. She was freezing, starving and got attacked by the wildlife (I know Sam was a dog, but he really wanted those beans...) if Luke or Pete hadn't shown up when they had done, she would have died. ATR also emphasises how Clem can be sneaky and manipulative to survive, using small spaces to sneak into the cabin, the struggle against the bandits, or the shed walker felt real and frantic. Clem stitching her arm up, being stuck with a bunch of unreasonable adults, it was still a harsh world and I loved it. I thought the cabin group had a great set-up and despite the fact I didn't like them I wanted to learn more about them, because what sort of villain could make adults this unreasonable that they were debating on killing a little girl? (I know the bite plays a factor in it as well, but Rebecca does say Clem could be working for Carver) It was a great premise and really made me fear what this "Carver" was capable of and that Telltale were going for a real big baddie this season. The bodies at the river as well only added to my intrigue and left me hyped for E2.
But the majority of fans screamed out against being stuck with the cabin group, so I think this where Telltale may have re-written the story and where (rather than stick to their guns and tell the story that needed to be told, they went with what the fans wanted). So rather than the planned Lilly/Christa return, which would have made much more sense, they played it safe with Kenny. Don't get me wrong, I loved Kenny and thought he made the remaining episodes enjoyable, but seeing what happened to him in Season 3, I truly think his Season 1 death should have just remained canon.
It was the perfect send off and one of the most touching and fitting deaths I've ever seen written for a character, I loved seeing him back but after the initial joy faded I came to realise this choice was bad in the long run, as the story became focused on Kenny going through another Season 1 arc. In fact you could say a lot of Season 2 and 3 (more so with 3 so far) have made deaths and moments more focused on the short term results, rather than the long term narrative arc (you can disagree with me here, as I'm open to discussion).
Anyway to stop rambling and get back onto the point, Kenny's return was the point where I was happy, but also asking myself (How did he survive? He was surrounded by walkers without a gun, in a narrow alley, with no escape routes in site) and the moment where he simply stated that "I got Lucky" was the moment I knew I was happy because Telltale had pandered to Fan-service and given me and many others what they wanted, rather than what we needed for a good story. Imagine if our voices affected them in Season 1? No one would have wanted Carley or Lee to die, Clem would have become a super-badass almost instantly, a character like Ben would have gotten a gruesome and irredeemable end (say being killed by a walker while trying to run away from the group, rather than get his redemption arc of sorts) and characters like Omid and Christa would have been the death count fodder, in which we liked their characters and we would have been sad if they died, but they weren't major characters and their deaths wouldn't have affected the story massively.
After E2, Telltale had Kenny become something of a tragic hero, to put all attention on him, the cabin group were quickly turned around to become likeable but not important characters. So their deaths would make us sad and keep in the theme of "realism" but after the unexplained and almost cartoon-ish villainy of Carver, Troy, Tavia etc... which had been built on since 400 days, was simply gone in an episode. My suspense of disbelief was near enough gone and despite some of the cabin crew's deaths being somewhat realistic (Carlos being shot in the herd and Sarah's death in the trailer park) others were simply inexcusable (Nick dies on a fence, because... plot? Sarah's second death and don't get me started on Luke...) with so many characters dropping dead and others ploughing through near enough unscratched or surviving the impossible (looking at you Kenny, Jane and Clem) it became more about fan service and drama then realism. Jane being shoved in for those who wanted a "badass Clem" and Kenny being put in there for "Season 1 nostalgia" didn't help matters and Clem somehow being able to survive alone with the baby after 9 days, somehow being able to find Wellington with Kenny... heck Jane and Clem getting back to Howe's was the only one that had some realism to it, but Jane was too unlikable and the ending too short to get any sort of closure from it (like the Kenny endings).
With all this said, Season 3 killing off these two characters after so much care and love was given to them in Season 2 just baffles me even more (added to the fact both deaths lacked realism, especially Kenny's).
Anyway, I've gone on for long enough and made my point, what do you guys think? Was Kenny's return the end of realism in TWD? Was it a point further on down the line, or beforehand? Do you still think it's realistic? Am I being too harsh? Let me know your thoughts below!
Comments
If it happens once then it might be forgivable, happens more than once then yeah it's stretching it. Seeing the brother coming back as the leader of the bad guys was just too much. Clementine also meeting more comic book characters is sketchy as well, as both would have met Glenn years before. What are the odds? 400 days done it a little as well if truth be told, all of them being familiar with the diner then meeting later, Vince running into Becca and Shel after seeing them through the window earlier. Those are all pretty minor though.
As ridiculous as the Kenny one was, I forgave it because it was so good to see him back in the game and stepping up as Clementine's new guardian. That's how I would have ended season 1 anyway so you can imagine how happy I was when he returned.
I agree with you. Kenny still being alive after being surrounded in a room with walkers or being surrounded by walkers in a small alley with no gun (Based on if you saved Ben or not in episode 4) is pretty unrealistic. I just wish that Kenny would have said how he got out instead of saying "I got lucky" so I could at least understand how he got out of that whole unbelievable mess. I feel like he could have survived but because he didn't say how I find it to be unrealistic. (Unless he did say how he survived then I'm really stupid). But it did feel good to see Kenny again.
Both Jane and Kenny's deaths were unrealistic. Jane killed herself and she left Clementine and A.J all alone. That's something that nobody should do. Yeah Jane did see what happened to Rebecca after the baby was born but still, she could have survived with the baby or at least stayed with Clem longer. Kenny dies by flying out of the windshield of a car and gets paralyzed? That was probably one of the worst deaths they could have written for Kenny. I would have rather had Kenny sacrifice himself for Clementine and A.J instead of dying because he was paralyzed.
The end of realism in The Walking Dead game was, when Lee slipped the 2nd time on the blood stain in Clem's house. :-)
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The death of realism was the moment No Going Back came out.
Most people don't seem to realize this, but realistic or not it's pretty clear that at the release of episodes 5 the plan was always for Kenny to survive. Both his "death" scenes are pretty ambiguous and intentionally don't let you see him die. In fact in both versions Lee has the option to remain hopeful and believe that Kenny may still be alive. In the choices where it details everyone's fate and what you did for them, it clearly details that certain characters are dead but for Kenny it says he was "lost" to the herd.
I mean, I think realism kinda went out the window when the dead came back as slow, shambling cannibals and managed to completely overrun the many different police forces and militaries of the world lol. Kenny's survival was one of those "wait, what?" moments. I mean, I could see him surviving in the building, but locked in an alleyway, that's a bit of a stretch.
David though, they're gonna need to specifically address. Both in Florida when it started. Suddenly, 4 years later David happens to be the leader of the group that took over Richmond while his brother, who's been traveling for long enough that they're weary of sleeping in a van, happens to be in the area in direct conflict with said group.
I forgot about David's return stretching it, but yeah another point to add about Season 3 going slightly off the rails, also I respect your opinion on Kenny and imagine the last image of Season 1 being Clementine finding Kenny alive at the hill would have been so much better than an unexplained return in S2. Have him bloodied or injured or just anything, but have him smile at Clem or something and boom, more intrigue for S2 as Kenny gets an established plot arc of stepping up as a guardian (like in S2, just with more reasoning to why him and Clem become more attached) and have Clem depending on what Lee taught her,(be either hostile and untrustworthy or accepting of Kenny's care).
400 days point as well, I agree with you that it had it moment's but they were minor compared to what came later on.
They tried to make it look as though Kenny sacrificed himself, but it felt so rushed and forced. Kenny could have died in a flashback protecting Clem from the New Frontier or something generic, just not as bad as the flashback we got.
Fixed.
I wasn't happy with the (believed) fact that Kenny was dead in Season 1, but it was a good death that made one of the best scenes of the entire franchise (as long as you saved Ben, never saw the other one). And so I was happy, but also disappointed in Season 2.
Throughout the whole rest of the reason, I didn't care about that guy who means to be Kenny. Kenny had a rough, but optimistic attidude, that survived the death of his family. In Season two, he is an angry and depressed redneck with nothing that made me care about him - except his past.
It was an easy choice, but not the best one. Lilly would've fitted much better in the role Jane played, and even Vernon would've made me happy. But Kenny made me laugh, something that didn't happen in the TwD Franchise since my conversations with Doug in Episode 2. It was ridicolous and, worst of all, made Sarita kinda useless. I didn't care about Sarita, although she was a well-designed character.
Uh, no offense, but do you really think that was gonna be a thing?
Well said.
I think the room death was ambiguous because the room wasn't well lit and we couldn't see it, so I had blind hope that he would survive the room and return, but the alley I just found ridiculous and the explanation of how he survived just made it even worse. Also the room still left Kenny's story pretty open ended, whereas the alley death gave much better closure, also too me "Lost to the herd" still meant death.
So if Telltale could actually do a Rodrick/Asher thing, where Kenny returns based on if the room death played out, whereas Lilly/Christa return if it was the alley, that would be awesome and add a massive weight to the choices. But yeah that probably wouldn't have been practical to do.
I don't know why but your profile pic with that comment just made me laugh
How is David being in A New Frontier still stretching it in any way? there is nothing to suggest he didnt drive out of the driveway and down the road, realized that shit was fucked up, and found the safest place to hunker down
One thing I loved about A New Day, is that you can actually hear the military fighting back against the walkers and Kenny believes they'll succeed. You get characters from the military who have survived later on such as Lilly and Mark and see remnants of them in Episode 3 (with the crashed helicopter at the drug store). Doesn't cover the fact it was unrealistic that they fell to such slow things, but I thought it was a step in the right direction to start to show them fighting back and what not... the show barely covers this after Season 1 and in the comic it's unexplained how they fell, so in the future maybe more of an explanation can be given (unless I missed something).
I agree with you on the Kenny bit, and David seems to be a massive problem, the flashbacks were bad enough as it was, but David coming back is truly the point where you know the story is going to be all drama and action and no substance or realism. (I hope they somehow turn it around in Episode 3 though).
For Lilly/Christa it seemed like it could have happened (with Christa especially) but I was blindly hoping at the time and Kenny didn't even cross my mind, I thought because the fans wanted him back so badly, it would be the exact opposite of what Telltale would do and give us someone less expected, so I was kinda surprised and happy it was Kenny (at the time).
If they give us a good explanation in Episode 3 then I might let it slide, but encountering your brother 4 years into the apocalypse, where about 99 per cent (or around that number) of humanity have died since it began? Added to the fact you're hitting on his wife (or that she likes you anyway etc...) how convenient is it that you'd bump into your brother of all people, 4 years in and not only that but he's leading the big baddies as well.
I dunno it just screams the whole dead husband returns to create a love triangle angle (looking at you Rick, Lori and Shane) to create drama. Because why else would they bring him back?
Ah yeah, I found that while looking for funny mod pictures two days ago on a separate computer and just used it because why not.
Same.
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Sure, but realism doesnt always make for a compelling or interesting story, for example, in the Witcher 3, what are the chances that Geralt happens upon Triss Merigold in the middle of Novigrad? What are the chances that he happens upon Shani in the Novigrad sewers? Or to take an even more unrealistic example, Mass Effect, what are the chances, that Shepard runs into his old crewmates on multiple occassions, when they could be anywhere in the galaxy?
Obviously some degree of realism is required to immerse people into the story, but when its a video game, I can forgive taking liberties to create drama, since a super realistic game would get quite boring in alot of circumstances. Also, if you are gonna complain about David surviving for 4 years, shouldnt you also be complaining about Javier and co. surviving so long? Javier and the family have shown no survival skills whatsoever, in fact, they have repeatedly made bad calls, and done stupid shit, Gabe acts like its just another day at the beach, and that zombies dont exist, Kates only motivation is getting in Javiers pants, and Mariana is dead. I would say that the odds of David surviving is far higher than Javier, since Javier had to take care of his family, whereas David has been part of A New Frontier, and given his dominant nature, I dont find it too difficult to believe that he would be the boss, and while its probably true he is the boss, we have no definite proof yet that David is not just another lackey, unless I have missed something
Wow, that was rude.
You sir are a Troll, worse your argument is stupid and here is why.
In any work of fiction you have to accept the world it takes place in and it's rules as being reality for that fiction.
So what are the rules of TWD...well other than the fact that the dead walk the earth and it appears the growth of walled communities are a thing, it is not any different than our world.
So in our world if we got trapped between 2 groups of muggers...we are definitely going to get mugged and murdered.
So in TWD if you are in an alley caught between 2 groups of walkers and there is no other way out...well then you are going to die.
Having Kenny come back, no matter how much you like him, with no plausible way of him surviving...is a break in the reality of the fictional world.
So Troll, I would label you homsi, stop with trolling.
Let's talk about "16 months later". This gotta be one of the most unrealistic things in the whole series.
Nope that was javoars family lasting this long
I can actually get behind the point you're making with Javier's family somehow surviving over David. Because David (alone and been in the armed forces so he probably has survival skills under his belt) would be a more likely survivor than Javier's remaining family. Regardless of their survival, them meeting up again (too me) is unrealistic considering how many people have died over 4 years of the apocalypse.
I know some games like Mass Effect, The Witcher and adding some of my own examples, Left 4 Dead, Deadrising etc... work fine without a sense of realism and make for an entertaining story regardless and in those games it doesn't bother me at all because it's what I expect and what's been marketed to me. But when you take The Walking Dead Game, which was grounded in it's approach to a zombie apocalypse, scenario's and characters and start filling it with unrealistic meetings, scenarios etc... then that's what begins to bother me. The Last Of Us was one of the best games of this generation and that had a very realistic and grounded world and even it's plague was more realistic and had a greater chance of happening than the walker plague (as the Cordyceps fungi is real).
Also the point on David, we can agree that I too could see him becoming leader, which is why I really hope they do some explaining and character building in E3 on how he survived, where he has been, how he came to lead the New Frontier etc... and not just give us another half assed "I got lucky" excuse.
In what way? I could see Clem and Christa surviving alone that long, I just needed more information on the time-skip, as I felt Telltale could have handled it better, or at least mentioned it more in future episodes.
Lilly as Jane would have been a great choice and made decision making a hell of a lot harder.
Also yeah... Poor Sarita, she got a very raw deal in being Kenny's new girlfriend.
It's simply happened in order to skip the story for Clementine to be old enough to be a protagonist, there's absolutely no reason other than that for the plot to jump such far into the future.
TT has forgotten and totally neglected this case, did nothing to develop Christa's character even though they had so many great opportunities (Omid's death & loss of her baby). We've missed such a huge period in Clem's life, right after Lee's death. Timeskip is just a plain plot-hole. 16 months having no impact on Clementine's life at all? No memories of that time, no friends, no story to tell Luke. In comparison, S2 length was barely two weeks and dozen of people has died.
If that was realistic, Christa would've been such an important and dear person in Clem's life, who's literally kept her alive for years and accompanied after her life was destroyed with Lee's and her parents' deaths. In fact, Clementine's memory of her guardian was lost in that river with Lee's photo and the drawing.
Well, Joel also finds his brother in the middle of the apocalypse, Clem finds Kenny randomly, I can look past stuff like that, because stories tend to be more interesting with characters that are more personal to either the player or the main character, for example, dont you think alot more People would have shot Kenny, if it wasnt Kenny? if both Kenny and Jane had been new characters to season 2, I think alot more people would have shot Kenny, but it makes a more interesting and personal choice, because Kenny is known to the player, and to Clem, which means that the right thing may be to shoot Kenny (or it may not be), but the choice is way harder to make because its a known character
Joel knew where his brother was beforehand, but yeah having Kenny and Jane being a decision certainly made it more interesting, but it could have been interesting if they had developed the cabin group more and made them oppose Jane. Say what if it was between Luke and Jane? Or Nick and Jane? Or even Sarah or Jane? If S2 had more character development I think they could have pulled off the final stunt with a known character such as Luke, Nick, Sarah, Pete (etc and if they somehow survived till this point) or hell, even go with the 400 days cast and develop them to be even more likeable, and have them bond with Clem until the final decision comes up.
Kenny and Jane was a choice that made you think and made things interesting, I can't deny that, but with the right amount of character development and time given in Season 2. We could have swapped Kenny with a character that had been with us since All That Remains, if it took us a season to grow to love Kenny, then I'm sure it could have been managed with another character in Season 2.
Fair enough, you make a very good point there.
While I actually like season 2 better than season 1, one of the biggest problems season 2 has is the lack of direction, in Season 1 you were travelling to the city that Clems parents were in, to find a boat and get out, and that was the overall objective throughout the season, but in season 2, you first meet the cabin crew, takes 1 episode, then you travel to the ski lodge, another episode, then you get taken to Howes, another episode, and this is where they should have kept the story to Howes and the surrounding areas, because we barely get to know any of the characters, and Carver barely gets any depth as a villain before he is killed off, all this running around and no clear direction, as well as some of the cast missing for episodes at a time (Luke at Howes), you also barely spend time with anyone during episode 3 or 4, since you are looking for supplies and shit, and this very much leads to missing character development, but the biggest sin, while I did like Kennys return, it was unnecessary, and all it did was skewer peoples perception of the cabin crew.
And this is where I think Kenny is a problem, people support Kenny, logically so, because as players, Kenny is a great friend, because he was one of Lees best friends in season 1, but Clem on the other hand, barely spends any time with Kenny at any point, so while Kennys loyalty to Clem is understandable, the players loyalty, as Clem, towards Kenny, should be put into alot more question than it is I feel, Clem didnt know Kenny very well, at least from what we see in season 1, she barely spends any time with him, but if I recall, something like 70% of players chose to sit with Kenny, even though I feel like Clem should be more inclined to sit with Luke, since Luke supported her in her time of need, and Luke has been a good friend to her until that point. I dunno, I always felt like peoples support for Kenny was based around their relationship with him in season 1, as Lee, rather than whats realistic.
As opposed to the totally realistic concept of zombies roaming the earth?
I don't think it did. What ruined Season 2 for me was the fact that there was seemingly no point to it. S1 was about a man, with a violent past, redeeming himself.
The only thing I could see that S2 was trying to say is don't trust anyone, or was asking the question: "Whom can you trust?", which I don't think was much of a point, as S1 already showed that obviously not everyone is trustworthy.
So as far as I can see, S2 had no pointed message to it.
I did question the likelihood of Clem reuniting with Kenny, seemingly far away from Savannah where they were separated, and how low it realistically would be.
However, I was so happy to have Kenny back that I just didn't care.
Considering that there was never a real explanation that made logical sense as to how Kenny got out of that alley and they just made Javier's brother the leader of The New Frontier, yeah a little bit. I'm intrigued as to where they'll go with this new direction in Season 3, but I'm not exactly happy with how unrealistic that seems, especially considering the time frame in which David would have had to survive on his own and create an entire organization. Even Rick's group didn't make it this far and there are only a few left. It just seems weird.
Almost everyone did, since Lily ran off on her own while still alive and Christa was alive at the beginning of Season 2. Kenny being alive was a good plot twist, but realistically it didn't make a lot of sense.
The thing is though, whether they were shown not talking much is beside the point in a way because regardless, Kenny is one of the first people Clem sees after meeting Lee, she knows who he is and Clem's relationship was more with Duck and maybe Katjaa so because of that, she is shown to care for Kenny and also for all we know, they may have bonded offscreen during the 3 month time jump between episode 1 and 2. There are many possibilities
Okay. It just sounded like they were saying it was fact. Actually, I definitely wouldn't have minded having Lilly back instead, since there's a lot more you could've done with her instead of Kenny.