ANF Writing At Its Best
So I stumbled upon this and it will sure open the eyes of many...
"They call themselves The New Frontier. They used to be decent people, but now they're something else"
...said Clem way back in Episode 2. Now that we know the full story of her joining them, later exiled - and, let's not forget, Ava giving her supplies - on what does exactly Clem base her judgement about TNF? Unless Ep5 states that she had a run-in with them later, there's nothing that justifies Clem's opinion about them. They took AJ from her - he was sick, sure - but their reason was that he had a better chance of survival with a group than with just Clem.
"We don't have a go-ahead!"
"Fuck you and your go-ahead. Ram the fucking gate!"
(...)
"It's not like I don't have a heart, okay?"
...argued Max and Badger, as well as that's how Javi was greeted at the gate in Episode 2. Since we know right now that both Max and Badger were a part of Joan's scheme of taking down communities and stealing from them, both situations seem illogical. Since Javi & the group were witnesses to TNF killing Mari just like that, without any reason at all, as well as being refugees from Prescott, they should've been killed or turned away at Richmond gates right from the start. Shouldn't Max cover his tracks, realizing that letting the group into Richmond would risk the exposure of Joan's plans to the community? While we're at it...
"This isn't how we do things!"
Jesus states that TNF took over Richmond, surprising Javi's group. Episode 4 states (can't remember where, but I know that someone said that) that it's several years now that TNF resides in Richmond. (I won't even mention that, if it's true, then it's weird Prescott people didn't cross paths with them earlier. Eleanor suggested to try and get to Richmond in the first place in Ep2, and she didn't know who are these people?) Still - Jesus told them that "he lost touch with some good people when the New Froniter took over".
Quick question - if TNF community is truly unaware of Joan's schemes and they are good people, as David says... then how did they gain control over Richmond? Did TNF just get there, told the people who created this community that they are now in charge? (and yeah, people would definitely hand over leadership to some strangers, right...) Or did they kill people and took over the place for themselves? (likely option, since Jesus couldn't contact said 'good people')
If we go with the first option, the original residents of Richmond would likely cause a revolt - or, if they accepted TNF leadership, would definitely know they're not to be trusted. If we go with the second option, then it would mean that the whole TNF group is aware of the violent actions their leaders take.
Regardless of the option, it means it's total bullsht that the TNF community isn't aware of the violent approach of its leaders. This essentialy means that the whole ending sequence of Episode 4 is illogical, because Joan cannot step up and say that she defends the community while David goes around killing people and putting them in danger. The community can't be that dumb. Given the history of the TNF shown Eps 1-3, they should be aware of the leadership's actions and call bullsht on Joan's reasoning. Telltale, however, decided to present the entire TNF community as unaware of all the killing, which is just not possible. Further proof for Joan being a psychopath - buliding the gallows for a public execution? In a community that, as Clint says, exiles and not kills? Why didn't anybody protest?
Oh, and one more thing - whether raids were blamed on David or Joan admitted to them in Ep3, Clint suddenly had a change of heart. (hence the quote above) They were talking in Ep3 about innocents being killed in those raids and you were fine with it, and suddenly - when Ava/Tripp is killed and David's about to be hanged - you say that it's not right? Who the hell writes this sh*t, a ten-year-old kid or a professional writer?
"I know you didn't have much stake in Prescott, but they burned the place to the ground for no reason."
...said Tripp. Now, I don't know whether it changes much, but I killed Conrad and no one will convince me it's a bad decision. Whatever his feelings were, he put a gun to a kid's head. It's non-canon, sure, but if you don't make a decision, Conrad kills Gabe. So I killed Conrad and that's it.
Now to the point - Eleanor, after coming to Richmond, is imprisoned. So was Tripp. Anyways, Eleanor somehow - and we don't find out how - had time to familiarize herself with TNF and Joan enough in a matter of a day or two at best to advocate on staying in Richmond instead of escaping - hell, she had time to tell Joan of the group's plans! You know, Eleanor - a person who's home was destroyed by Joan's goons. WTF? And Tripp, after finding out about Conrad - and having the situation explained to him - decides to abandon the group and not go against TNF, instead deciding to stay among them? WTF? Two episodes ago you wanted revenge for what they did to your home and now you want to join Joan? For fuck's sake, who wrote that?
"Sorry, David. My hands are tied"
It is said that TNF is run by a council. Lingard is one of the deciding voices. He is unsure of what to do in Ep3. So the most logical thing would be to appeal to him, right? But hey, suddenly he's high on drugs and decides to kill himself, because he doesn't want to live in this place, with Joan doing horrible things.
Fuck, man! You can stop her! You're part of the council! You don't want to live in a place where she's in charge? Then fucking stop her from doing that, you have a power to do it! But no... that would be too easy, right? Thing is, you can put obstacles in protagonist's way, but you have to make them at least slightly logical and not convenient. That's what I'd expect from a professional writer, at least.
I would write more - about superfluous flashbacks, Gabe & Clem nonsense, idiotic forced romance between Javi & Kate, or about why on Earth did TNF had a hideout in the junkyard when they kept all of their shit in the magazine on the outskirts of Richmond - but I don't think that it's worth it. Besides, with Joan being determinant, I'm 100% sure that the final showdown of the season - given the presentation of Ep4 - would be Javi vs. David. Who gives a shit if it doesn't make a lot of sense - with what they did so far, there's literally everything that can happen in the finale. After all, who expected Kenny vs. Jane..."
Comments
The writing is just lazy or the plot was written by one person unaware of mistakes, plotholes or lack of logic.
Can this not be a sarcastic thread? I thought I was in for some positivity.
I'm wondering if the problem has more to do with the actual characters than the story itself. ANF, for all intents and purposes, has a decently concrete premise: protect your family, and ask you what the lengths are that you're willing to go to in order to accomplish that. That's commendable (if not already seen a billion times before) in that the season actually has a purpose this time around. Season two, as much as I personally enjoyed it, kind of lost its way in the second half. It went from getting to Wellington and trying to stop an angry tyrant to... well, I don't really know. Survive, I guess? See how much drama we can endure within the group before it all goes kersplat?
But the thing with ANF is that with these new people, not only do a bunch of us not really care about any of them due to low characterization, low amounts of interesting qualities to them and basically zero time to actually find out more about their backstories, but also that, like you mentioned, some of the things they do stretch the boundaries of belief. Are you seriously gonna tell me that Tripp, a guy who could lock you and Clementine up and be heavily distrusting towards you in episode one, will basically hand you the mantle of leadership the next day after his community is ransacked? Do they want us to believe that Eleanor, if you didn't kill Conrad, will still rat you out to Joan after we had basically established that this place was dangerous? Geez, Eleanor, what did you think all the planning and sneaking around was for?
I'll admit, I've done this before in things I've written, too. I've written for characters to act a certain way in the early chapters and then have them do something completely off the wall in the later ones, but I'm trying to fix that. I've met a lot of wonderful people through fanfiction that have given me a ton of helpful advice, and made me a better writer as a result. Sometimes it can be a little easy to get caught up in things and fall off the wagon, especially when you get all excited and want to add drama, suspense and mystery to the story to keep the audience on their toes. But I think somebody needs to step in every once in a while (preferably not somebody who just wants Telltale to reach the bottom line) and help them work through these things. People don't like being criticized for the things they do, especially if they've worked really hard on it - that's usually just called "being a human being" - but sometimes you need an outside opinion to collaborate with you and point you in the right direction.
Couldn't they just consult Sean Vanaman for advice, once in a while?
It'd be nice to get some insight, that's for sure. I still find it pretty amazing how much they were able to accomplish with such a small company at the time.
Yeah. If I am not mistaken it may be because they weren't working on much else. So, if they want, and focus on one game, it can be extraordinary. But as a growing company, they have to pay growing bills and salaries. Maybe they grew too fast after the success of TWD S1 and should've stayed at one game at a time, with the smaller team they were.
I think they might have the Indie developer curse - starting off really small, making a handful of games with a very tiny cult following, then hit it big with one smash hit, joining the mainstream, and then having many of their following games unable to hit the peak they once achieved. They set a pretty high bar for themselves, and it's understandable that they can't always hit their mark, but at a certain point I think they need to take a step back and take a look at what made season one such a homerun in the first place. Take some time, get some feedback, then start again from scratch with those constructive criticisms in mind.
Maybe that's the way it should be, instead of chugging out new series every year (or two, in certain cases) like the Call of Duties of the world and focus on making each game the best it can possibly be.
Agreed. I don't need a new TWD season every 2 years (I want, but not need), so if they take their sweet time, 3 or 4 years, I don't wanna imagine what they could pull off. So yeah, they should take a step back, at the very least after A New Frontier.
But, personally, Clementine needs to be included. She doesn't have to playable. Just be around. Which would be a good start for a group that lasts longer, instead killing everyone off at the end of the season.
So yeah, let Javier, his family and Clem survive, be together, then take your sweet time and punch something out.
Sorry, got a bit off topic.
Exactly! Take three or four years (preferably with a large portion devoted almost entirely to TWD), crank out the dialogue-rich hubs and exploration to make the episodes around two hours and up, and don't be afraid to try something new, with Clementine still as one of the main focuses. Keeping at least a handful of the crew alive would definitely help - just look at the sadness from the community for Glenn's death as an example to follow - and would help avoid the problem of just adding another group of people onto the body pile.
Hell, maybe even go for a TFTBL vibe and have Javi and Clem actually both be playable this time around, maybe having their stories colliding eventually so that people don't get quite as pissed off this time around.
But realistically, I think if there's one company I know that has actually kind of stuck to this quality over quantity policy that I know of, it's gotta be someone like Naughty Dog. Just look at the Last of Us - they took years to develop that game, making sure that the story, sound, art, characters, etc. were all as great as they wanted it to be, and then released it when they knew it was ready to ship out. Sure, they've definitely got a larger budget than Telltale, but they've already proven that they can get across just as many emotional reactions as Naughty Dog can, possibly even more.
Can't add much more but that I agree.
Perhaps TTG gets their shit together, and realizes it, after ANF is finished.
I don't dislike ANF, and I find it entertaining. But it could've been better.
I really don't think these games need 4 years of development so much as a good writing time and genuine passion incorporated into it. Last of us did take years to develop which is open world free roam game with hours upon hours of content. The walking dead is 5 episodes with maximum of 2 hour playtime a piece. Telltale could make a good walking dead games in 2 years if they took their time and put genuine effort and hardwork into it.
Could very well be. I genuinely think that the writers who make these want to give it some justice, especially for the fans, but I wonder sometimes if it's more of a management thing. Maybe because of how successful they've gotten, the writers are under more pressure to churn something out more quickly, without being given full control of the reigns in terms of where they want the story to go.
As for the two years or four years thing... whichever time frame, it's just important that they can deliver. I wouldn't be too pissed if I had to wait longer for them to go back to what made us love this series in the first place.
Unfortunately, if you're looking for positive, you've come to the wrong place.
If you want to see some positivity for ANF... I'm actually not sure where to find it. Maybe you could take some drugs and start hallucinating a room full of people that like it? I'm pretty close to attempting that myself, this place is killing me
I understand Lingard in EP4 after playing 4 episodes of ANF.
Heh. I don't care if people don't like it. I hate it when they won't stop preaching about how bad they think it is
It's not opinion when the story is as inconsistent,illogical and poorly written as Don't_look_Back breaks down. It's 100% fine if you like the series, but at least acknowledge the blatant flaws,errors and inconsistencies in the game.
I think one of the best ways to fully enjoy playing this series is to turn off your brain and embrace it for what it is.
It makes sense. You do realize when people are apart of a mass group where symbolism, patriotism, and propaganda is the making of the group that group will easy take suggestion. The marks are on their walls, flags, and on themselves. These people given up some of their individualism to be apart of something bigger.( in their eyes) This is evidenced in real life with the Holocaust. All I'm saying that people that affiliate themselves with symbols in group get peer pressured and are easily brainwashed .
I do acknowledge them, but what I try to acknowledge more is the fact that I play the game for the experience and not to pick out the easy to miss flaws when you play the first time around because I'm not a fucking game reviewer.
Well that's good you play the game for the experience it's the problem of enjoying the experience with very poor writing,pacing,consistent characters,absence of logic and inconsistent character behaviors. You don't have to be a IGN or gamescore critic to notice these blatant problems and errors within the game.
I always thought they just found the city empty, with no survivors, and decided to build a community there.
Shit?
This is extremely well written, great job, this sums up a large portion of thoughts I have had while looking at this game, and eloquently puts together a lot of good points.
You barely get to see any of Prescott, and only five people from it, you don't get to learn how they are surviving, protecting themselves against walker hordes, growing enough crop, training the horses, getting clean water, how they manage the community. You don't get to learn anything before it pulls a Wellington, and the settlement gets destroyed rather artificially for the sake of drama (despite fact that this far into the apocalypse, stable settlements have to had formed proper defense plans and strategies in the case of raids from other groups).
The same problem has happened with Richmond and The New Frontier, and the bizarre inconsistency with how they are set up as a big bad by Jesus, Clementine and Co, but are literally just a normal settlement with a raiding party that are somehow hiding their activities from the community through some absurd magic, and this is also incredibly stupid, since trading with multiple groups who are developing tools, collecting resources, and growing crops is far more sustainable than cutting of a supply output, not to mention they are killing walkers, reducing risk for your community, and they have a much better chance surviving winter working with others groups than raiding them and wasting precious resources. It isn't just sympathy, it's pragmatism. Telltale should take a look at the writing for different settlements and groups in New Vegas, every single location has thought put into how they survive, defend themselves, their philosophy, how they collect food and water, and how they interact with other groups and settlements.
Also, why are people from the New Frontier camping in the woods during Clementines flashback when they have been stated to be holding out at Richmond (contradictory to Eleanor as you said). And what on earth is the logic behind Davids ridiculous rage at Clementine, and why is there no option to put the medicine back, instead artificially funneling you into the same choice, and what is the reasoning behind kicking out a young girl from a settlement, separating her from a toddler, and banishing her, even if the medicine wasn't wasted (It's still in the syringe you morons!), and you are talking to a young girl possibly having to deal with the death of a boy she raised since he was born!
Why on earth did they have gas inside a broken down car? And why did they assume someone was stealing when all they are doing is simply funneling fuel out of said car? If that isn't an indicator that someone is scavenging I don't know what is. Why did they claim they stole it later when they didn't even get to take it? Why did they make a base in an abandoned caravan so close to Prescott, a place they were supposedly planning to raid? If they instead decided to spontaneously kill children and attack a base because a family opened a can of pudding, why were Badger and Max not reprimanded by Joan for acting out of order (or with no "go-ahead"), or punished for not being covert in their raiding activities? If Max wasn't heartless and decided to let the group into Richmond, why was he suddenly okay hanging out with Badger as he boasted about shooting a little girl?
Why is Max so freaking inconsistent? From capturing Javi, to attacking Prescott, to letting them inside and being sympathetic that a mothers daughter was shot, to telling them off to Joan, saying they would have given them supplies if they asked and didn't "steal" (again, from a completely abandoned junkyard as he funneled fuel from a broken car), to trying to shoot them, then begging for forgiveness, but apparently having raided settlements often before?
Why does this game have almost nothing to do with Clementine? Why is she not playable if they weren't going to account for literally any of our roleplaying decisions as her. Why could we not carry over our saves as normal? Why did, after the lengthy article explaining how they were using advanced research and statistics to figure out different varieties of Clementines personality for different players, none of those different variants impact Clementine inside of the game? Why did they not clearly state you would be playing as Javi?
Why is Clementine even in this game if she isn't in the slightest bit "#OurClementine", and none of our decisions as her mattered or changed her in any way?
Why the heck is Kenny and Jane dead and Wellington gone? Why did they boast about having a great system to account for players different endings, if it was going to be so horrible?
How am I supposed to even consider these characters dead canonically if they occurred in dreams, look completely different, make no sense, and don't account for player decisions whatsoever?
You know, when you read about all these inconsistencies, it becomes funny and humorous in a weird way.
TWD S1= The Matrix it's so amazing it get's a big fanbase
TWD S2= The Matrix Reloaded: Could be better
TWD S3= Still better than Revolution... I think
You're not supposed to notice them, that's why. I didn't notice a single one until I joined these forums. Just full of negativity. I nearly said negative assholes but I'd get a crowd of haters for that.
Agreed. The writing is very inconsistent once you start thinking about it. This season definitely wants you to turn off your brain and just not ask questions.
Yup.
Telltale? More like Tell-a-shitty-tale.
I just don't understand how something with, what, three writers? At least? Can be this... Ugh. It's embarrassing but trying to turn off your brain is pretty much all you can do.
The episodes being written by a committee are in my mind the biggest reason this season is a failure on almost every level.
Why put in effort for the story when you can throw a half ass Clem and some flashbacks into the episodes and call it a day?
True, you'd think more than one would mean they'd be able to share some interesting ideas and helpful feedback amongst each other but apparently it's the exact opposite.
Close to 10 writers in episode 1 part 1 & 2, if I remember correctly, but a few less for episodes 2 & 3.
Jesus H. Christ that's scary.
Makes you wonder what these 10 wtiters were doing in the months leading up to episode 1's release.
I really love this section of the thread. No unnecessary negativity but genuine constructive criticism for both the game and the company. Wish we had more of this in the forum
I really love this section of the thread. No unnecessary negativity but genuine constructive criticism for both the game and the company. Wish we had more of this in the forum