TFS kicks off after ANF. It's clear because the end of ANF literally shows her going to find AJ. Season 2 goes into ANF, ANF goes into TFS
They said TFS will start where AJ is already with Clementine. The fact that AJ will already be with Clementine when the game starts practically makes everything that happened in ANF non-canon, as Season 2 ends where Clementine is with AJ and TFS will start where they are together
TFS kicks off after ANF. It's clear because the end of ANF literally shows her going to find AJ. Season 2 goes into ANF, ANF goes into TFS. … moreAlso, it's inaccurate to say the choices you made didn't effect Clem in any noticeable way. Depending on your choices, you may have made her trust other people again.
Telltale has made a lot of mistakes, but if ANF really wouldn't have had an effect on Clem, she wouldn't have been in it, nor would it have been labeled a Season.
They said TFS will start where AJ is already with Clementine. The fact that AJ will already be with Clementine when the game starts practically makes everything that happened in ANF non-canon, as Season 2 ends where Clementine is with AJ and TFS will start where they are together
Both Season 2 AND Season 3 started with a time jump from the previous season (heck, there were time jumps between episodes in Season 1!). Now you are just stating assumptions as fact....
TFS kicks off after ANF. It's clear because the end of ANF literally shows her going to find AJ. Season 2 goes into ANF, ANF goes into TFS
… more
They said TFS will start where AJ is already with Clementine. The fact that AJ will already be with Clementine when the game starts practically makes everything that happened in ANF non-canon, as Season 2 ends where Clementine is with AJ and TFS will start where they are together
Not true. Season 2 Clementine could have ended up alone, implying that she trusted neither Jane, nor Kenny.
She didn't leave Jane because she didn't trust her, she left because she was angry over the fact that she killed kenny over a stupid stunt Jane had pulled, and didn't want to be around her because of that. Clementine has the option of Killing Kenny after he kills Jane because he took things too far. Not because he couldn't be trusted.
And you know that for a fact....how exactly? Please provide a citation from Telltale or I call bullshit.
It's only because of ANF that she didn't trust people. That mistake of a game made a solution to the problem it created.
Not true. S… moreeason 2 Clementine could have ended up alone, implying that she trusted neither Jane, nor Kenny.
She was only in the game to help it sell.
And you know that for a fact....how exactly? Please provide a citation from Telltale or I call bullshit.
Season 2 started with a time jump from the previous season
What, a few weeks after Clementine meets up with Omid and Christa???? And ANF does not tie in with the previous games!!!! Everything that happened in Clementine's flashbacks in ANF takes place in the time after season 2 and before ANF, not during!
They said TFS will start where AJ is already with Clementine. The fact that AJ will already be with Clementine when the game starts practica… morelly makes everything that happened in ANF non-canon, as Season 2 ends where Clementine is with AJ and TFS will start where they are together
Both Season 2 AND Season 3 started with a time jump from the previous season (heck, there were time jumps between episodes in Season 1!). Now you are just stating assumptions as fact....
She didn't leave Jane because she didn't trust her, she left because she was angry over the fact that she killed kenny over a stupid stunt Jane had pulled, and didn't want to be around her because of that.
Whats the difference? Call it trust or something else. Bottom line: she decided to strike out on her own instead of stay with other people (same as she was at the beginning of S3).
Clementine has the option of Killing Kenny after he kills Jane because he took things too far.
Right, he took things too far. She doesn't trust him, he's dangerous.
Are you really that naive?????
Yes. Without proof of Telltale's true intentions, I believe that is a rectum-derived accusation. Other people have put forth the theory that Clementine was originally intended to be equally as playable as Javi, but the game was revised multiple times...That is just as plausible.
Not true. Season 2 Clementine could have ended up alone, implying that she trusted neither Jane, nor Kenny.
She didn't leave Jane be… morecause she didn't trust her, she left because she was angry over the fact that she killed kenny over a stupid stunt Jane had pulled, and didn't want to be around her because of that. Clementine has the option of Killing Kenny after he kills Jane because he took things too far. Not because he couldn't be trusted.
And you know that for a fact....how exactly? Please provide a citation from Telltale or I call bullshit.
Are you really that naive?????
"There was an earlier version of the story where Javi was forced to join the New Frontier group and branded (against his will) in order to prove his trustworthiness/earn his place. He escaped, but still needed to retrieve his family (David, Gabe, and Mari) from their NF captors, which aligned his goals with Clementine’s search for AJ."
~Creative Director Alyssa
Whats the difference? Call it trust or something else. Bottom line....she decided to strike out on her own instead of stay with other people
Someone leaving because they don't trust you and someone leaving because they can't tolerate you are two completely different things. I don't know how you can't see that.
She doesn't trust him, he's dangerous.
Because she believes he'd turn on her and AJ next, right????????
Yes. Without proof of Telltale's true intentions, I believe that is a rectum-derived accusation.
And The World's Biggest Schmuck Award goes to....[drum roll]
She didn't leave Jane because she didn't trust her, she left because she was angry over the fact that she killed kenny over a stupid stunt J… moreane had pulled, and didn't want to be around her because of that.
Whats the difference? Call it trust or something else. Bottom line: she decided to strike out on her own instead of stay with other people (same as she was at the beginning of S3).
Clementine has the option of Killing Kenny after he kills Jane because he took things too far.
Right, he took things too far. She doesn't trust him, he's dangerous.
Are you really that naive?????
Yes. Without proof of Telltale's true intentions, I believe that is a rectum-derived accusation. Other people have put forth the theory that Clementine was originally intended to be equally as playable as Javi, but the game was revised multiple times...That is just as plausible.
Someone leaving because they don't trust you and someone leaving because they can't tolerate you are two completely different things. I don't know how you can't see that.
Again, for whatever reason (you apparently don't like the word "trust"), she was wary of people at the beginning of Season 3. And your decisions as Clem at the end of Season 2 could justify that.
Because she believes he'd turn on her and AJ next, right????????
Right, Kenny can't be trusted to keep them safe anymore. Thanks for making my point.
And The World's Biggest Schmuck Award goes to....[drum roll]
And what is your response to those who say that earlier versions of the game had Clementine playing a bigger role (if not equal) to Javier? Why do that if she is just a filler to make more money? I'm not gonna stoop down into name calling.
Whats the difference? Call it trust or something else. Bottom line....she decided to strike out on her own instead of stay with other people… more
Someone leaving because they don't trust you and someone leaving because they can't tolerate you are two completely different things. I don't know how you can't see that.
She doesn't trust him, he's dangerous.
Because she believes he'd turn on her and AJ next, right????????
Yes. Without proof of Telltale's true intentions, I believe that is a rectum-derived accusation.
And The World's Biggest Schmuck Award goes to....[drum roll]
Wtf am i assuming???????? Everything I've said so far is a fact.
Also, she stopped trusting people when AJ was taken from her, after she got kicked out of the New Frontier for trying to save AJ's life, even after she got branded with their mark.THAT'S when and why she stopped trusting people. Because you think otherwise, explain why she trusted Ava's offer she got kicked out, since you think she stopped trusting people at the end of S2
They said TFS will start where AJ is already with Clementine. The fact that AJ will already be with Clementine when the game starts practica… morelly makes everything that happened in ANF non-canon, as Season 2 ends where Clementine is with AJ and TFS will start where they are together
Both Season 2 AND Season 3 started with a time jump from the previous season (heck, there were time jumps between episodes in Season 1!). Now you are just stating assumptions as fact....
Wtf am i assuming???????? Everything I've said so far is a fact.
Calm down man, lets not get so heated, enjoy the debate. You said AJ being with Clem at the start of TFS makes ANF non-canon. That's not a fact. How can you say that in any seriousness?
Also, she stopped trusting people when AJ was taken from her, after she got kicked out of the New Frontier for trying to save AJ's life, even after she got branded with their mark.THAT'S when and why she stopped trust people. Because you think otherwise, explain why she trusted Ava's offer she got kicked out, since you think she stopped trusting people at the end
There's plenty of situations you can point to between Season 2 and 3 where Clementine would lose faith in other people, many of them are dependent on the choices the player makes. You could choose to continue on with Kenny/Jane or not. You could choose to accept Ava's offer or not, to name a few. It's open to interpretation based on your choices.
you are just stating assumptions as fact
Wtf am i assuming???????? Everything I've said so far is a fact.
Also, she stopped trustin… moreg people when AJ was taken from her, after she got kicked out of the New Frontier for trying to save AJ's life, even after she got branded with their mark.THAT'S when and why she stopped trusting people. Because you think otherwise, explain why she trusted Ava's offer she got kicked out, since you think she stopped trusting people at the end of S2
Again, for whatever reason (you apparently don't like the word "trust")
Trust
believe in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of Tolerence
the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with
Based on common sense and your knowledge(which is now questionable) regarding Kenny's behavior during the events towards the end of S2, Did Clementine:
A ) Lose her trust in Kenny?
or B ) Lost her tolerance for Kenny?
Right, Kenny can't be trusted to keep them safe anymore. Thanks for making my point.
My sarcasm flew right over your head, didn't it? I'm not surprised though, seeing as how a lot of things seem to have flown over your head....
what is your response to those who say that earlier versions of the game had Clementine playing a bigger role (if not equal) to Javier?
Go see a psychologist and a psychiatrist
Why do that if she is just a filler to make more money?
because people make stupid decisions.
I'm not gonna stoop down into name calling
Well, when you're foolishly naive and say really stupid things, people are gonna call you names.
Someone leaving because they don't trust you and someone leaving because they can't tolerate you are two completely different things. I don'… moret know how you can't see that.
Again, for whatever reason (you apparently don't like the word "trust"), she was wary of people at the beginning of Season 3. And your decisions as Clem at the end of Season 2 could justify that.
Because she believes he'd turn on her and AJ next, right????????
Right, Kenny can't be trusted to keep them safe anymore. Thanks for making my point.
And The World's Biggest Schmuck Award goes to....[drum roll]
And what is your response to those who say that earlier versions of the game had Clementine playing a bigger role (if not equal) to Javier? Why do that if she is just a filler to make more money? I'm not gonna stoop down into name calling.
Based on common sense and your knowledge(which is now questionable) regarding Kenny's behavior during the events towards the end of S2, Did Clementine:
A ) Lose her trust in Kenny?
or
B ) Lost her tolerance for Kenny?
Why couldn't it be both? Why are they mutually exclusive? Did it take you a half hour to look up those definitions?
My sarcasm flew right over your head, didn't it? I'm not surprised though, seeing as how a lot of things seem to have flown over your head....
LOL nope. I think mine flew over yours on that one. It's okay though...
Go see a psychologist and a psychiatrist
Not a good enough answer to my question. Your theory is as plausible as any other (maybe less so because, as DaBigRG pointed out, quotes from Telltale employees seem to contradict it, or at least suggest the possibility).
Well, when you're foolishly naive and say really stupid things, people are gonna call you names.
....Still waiting for you to justify your comment about ANF being "non-canon" because there a was time skip wherein Clem found AJ....
There's plenty of situations you can point to between Season 2 and 3 where Clementine would lose faith in other people
PLEASE tell me what events took place betwen S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in other people. You're gonna tell me she lost faith in Kenny because he forgot to put his seatbelt on??? That she lost faith in Edith for warning her that people were attacking, and getting shot in the head while trying to escape??? That she lost faith in AJ for scaring off the rabbit???? Those were the events that took place between S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in people, and none of those are reasonable in the slightest bit, unless you're gonna argue that clementine insane.
You could choose to accept Ava's offer or not
She accepts her offer regardless, which is why we find her with the brand on her bicep
If TFS covers what happened in the flashbacks that clem had in ANF, then that only proves TFS wasn't canon
Wtf am i assuming???????? Everything I've said so far is a fact.
Calm down man, lets not get so heated, enjoy the debate. You sai… mored AJ being with Clem at the start of TFS makes ANF non-canon. That's not a fact. How can you say that in any seriousness?
Also, she stopped trusting people when AJ was taken from her, after she got kicked out of the New Frontier for trying to save AJ's life, even after she got branded with their mark.THAT'S when and why she stopped trust people. Because you think otherwise, explain why she trusted Ava's offer she got kicked out, since you think she stopped trusting people at the end
There's plenty of situations you can point to between Season 2 and 3 where Clementine would lose faith in other people, many of them are dependent on the choices the player makes. You could choose to continue on with Kenny/Jane or not. You could choose to accept Ava's offer or not, to name a few. It's open to interpretation based on your choices.
PLEASE tell me what events took place betwen S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in other people. You're gonna tell me she lost faith in Kenny because he forgot to put his seatbelt on??? That she lost faith in Edith for warning her that people were attacking, and getting shot in the head while trying to escape??? That she lost faith in AJ for scaring off the rabbit???? Those were the events that took place between S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in people, and none of those are reasonable in the slightest bit, unless you're gonna argue that clementine insane.
Well I meant between the ending of S2 and the flashbacks in ANF (could have clarified that better). So I would include Clem getting to see Kenny's slow descent into madness/rage and Jane's foolish decision to fake AJ's death. But beyond that, the flashbacks in S3 show Kenny and Edith dying (along with the fall of Wellington). Which leads to Clem's statement that "it always ends the same" (everyone she cares about dies). Adding to that, the New Frontier betrayed her by taking AJ and exiling her. Plenty of reasons to lose faith.
She accepts her offer regardless, which is why we find her with the brand on her bicep
Yes, she ultimately does end up in the New Frontier. But the player does have the option to decline her offer at the time, suggesting she doesn't trust them or think she is better off on her own with AJ.
There's plenty of situations you can point to between Season 2 and 3 where Clementine would lose faith in other people
PLEASE tell m… moree what events took place betwen S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in other people. You're gonna tell me she lost faith in Kenny because he forgot to put his seatbelt on??? That she lost faith in Edith for warning her that people were attacking, and getting shot in the head while trying to escape??? That she lost faith in AJ for scaring off the rabbit???? Those were the events that took place between S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in people, and none of those are reasonable in the slightest bit, unless you're gonna argue that clementine insane.
You could choose to accept Ava's offer or not
She accepts her offer regardless, which is why we find her with the brand on her bicep
If TFS covers what happened in the flashbacks that clem had in ANF, then that only proves TFS wasn't canon
Did it take you a half hour to look up those definitions?
You should be more concerned with the fact you couldn't tell the difference between the two without me having to present them to you, rather than worrying about how long it took me to find them
Based on common sense and your knowledge(which is now questionable) regarding Kenny's behavior during the events towards the end of S2, Did … moreClementine:
A ) Lose her trust in Kenny?
or
B ) Lost her tolerance for Kenny?
Why couldn't it be both? Why are they mutually exclusive? Did it take you a half hour to look up those definitions?
My sarcasm flew right over your head, didn't it? I'm not surprised though, seeing as how a lot of things seem to have flown over your head....
LOL nope. I think mine flew over yours on that one. It's okay though...
Go see a psychologist and a psychiatrist
Not a good enough answer to my question. Your theory is as plausible as any other (maybe less so because, as DaBigRG pointed out, quotes from Telltale employees seem to contradict it, or at least suggest the possibility).
Well, when you're foolishly naive and say really stupid things, people are gonna call y… [view original content]
You should be more concerned with the fact you couldn't tell the difference between the two without me having to present them to you, rather than worrying about how long it took me to find them
LOL....I just meant that regardless of whether it be trust, or tolerance, or faith in other people.....she ultimately decided that she was better off on her own. That's the state we find her in when Javi meets her.
I think the actual reason she feels that way is up to interpretation by the player, based on past choices and how they view their version of Clem.
Did it take you a half hour to look up those definitions?
You should be more concerned with the fact you couldn't tell the differe… morence between the two without me having to present them to you, rather than worrying about how long it took me to find them
what's the difference?
I meant between the ending of S2 and the flashbacks in ANF
I was supposed to understand that from "between Season 2 and 3"?
suggesting she doesn't trust them or think she is better off on her own with AJ.
choosing not to side with the New Frontier because she was better off on her own with AJ makes more sense than her not trusting them. At that moment she had no reason not to.
PLEASE tell me what events took place betwen S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in other people. You're gonna tell me she lost faith i… moren Kenny because he forgot to put his seatbelt on??? That she lost faith in Edith for warning her that people were attacking, and getting shot in the head while trying to escape??? That she lost faith in AJ for scaring off the rabbit???? Those were the events that took place between S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in people, and none of those are reasonable in the slightest bit, unless you're gonna argue that clementine insane.
Well I meant between the ending of S2 and the flashbacks in ANF (could have clarified that better). So I would include Clem getting to see Kenny's slow descent into madness/rage and Jane's foolish decision to fake AJ's death. But beyond that, the flashbacks in S3 show Kenny and Edith dying (along with the fall of Wellington). Which leads to Clem's statement that "it… [view original content]
I was supposed to understand that from "between Season 2 and 3"?
No, thats why I said I could have clarified better....but the flashback deaths and the New Frontier betrayal I mentioned happened between the two seasons, no? Are you disagreeing with those?
choosing not to side with the New Frontier because she was better off on her own with AJ makes more sense than her not trusting them. At that moment she had no reason not to.
She had no reason not to trust someone that she never met before? Really? You would trust strangers in a zombie apocalypse? Have you ever watched the show...or played the game?
I meant between the ending of S2 and the flashbacks in ANF
I was supposed to understand that from "between Season 2 and 3"?
su… moreggesting she doesn't trust them or think she is better off on her own with AJ.
choosing not to side with the New Frontier because she was better off on her own with AJ makes more sense than her not trusting them. At that moment she had no reason not to.
She had no reason not to trust someone that she never met before? Really? Have you ever played the game?
Here's a picture of a convicted murderer who she had never met in her life, yet befriended, and put all her trust in.
Have YOU ever played the game???? Do you hear yourself?
I was supposed to understand that from "between Season 2 and 3"?
No, thats why I said I could have clarified better....but the flash… moreback deaths and the New Frontier betrayal I mentioned happened between the two seasons, no? Are you disagreeing with those?
choosing not to side with the New Frontier because she was better off on her own with AJ makes more sense than her not trusting them. At that moment she had no reason not to.
She had no reason not to trust someone that she never met before? Really? You would trust strangers in a zombie apocalypse? Have you ever watched the show...or played the game?
False equivalency. She met Lee when she was young and naive, before the world completely went to hell. For every good person like Lee, there are ten strangers who aim to rape, rob or kill. That is especially true several years into the apocalypse, and Clem knows it now.
Lets agree to disagree I guess....but I definitely don't think its out of the question for Clementine not to trust a stranger, especially based on all she had been through.
Why does the quote you cut from my previous post omit my question of whether you watch the show? Aren't most strangers on the show dangerous and untrusthworthy? In fact, overwhelmingly so?
She had no reason not to trust someone that she never met before? Really? Have you ever played the game?
Here's a picture of a convi… morected murderer who she had never met in her life, yet befriended, and put all her trust in.
Have YOU ever played the game???? Do you hear yourself?
False equivalency. She met Lee when she was young and naive, before the world completely went to hell. For every good person like Lee, there… more are ten strangers who aim to rape, rob or kill. That is especially true several years into the apocalypse, and Clem knows it now.
Lets agree to disagree I guess....but I definitely don't think its out of the question for Clementine not to trust a stranger, especially based on all she had been through.
Why does the quote you cut from my previous post omit my question of whether you watch the show? Aren't most strangers on the show dangerous and untrusthworthy? In fact, overwhelmingly so?
It's not as interesting a debate when you cut so much of what I said and only respond to bits and pieces.
I was at least trying my best to respond to all your points...but thanks for the conversation!
why don't you re-read my posts and answer all the questions you missed? Is it because you don't have good answers?
Believe it or not, I actually was/still am doing other things as we spoke/speak, which is why my replies were late and didn't address everything. I answered what I could while multitasking. I'm sorry being fully engaged in an argument with you wasn't my top priority
good night!
It's "good morning" as it is 2:08 AM in eastern time....
Believe it or not, I actually was/still am doing other things as we spoke/speak, which is why my replies were late and didn't address everything. I answered what I could while multitasking.
No, you cut and pasted to answer what suited you best.
It's "good morning" as it is 2:08 AM in eastern time....
why don't you re-read my posts and answer all the questions you missed? Is it because you don't have good answers?
Believe it or not… more, I actually was/still am doing other things as we spoke/speak, which is why my replies were late and didn't address everything. I answered what I could while multitasking. I'm sorry being fully engaged in an argument with you wasn't my top priority
good night!
It's "good morning" as it is 2:08 AM in eastern time....
This thread took off while I was gone lol. It's kind of hard to repeat the mistake they made with Clementine in ANF since she's no longer a side character, and we'll once again be choosing how she interacts with people and in situations rather than watching her only do it in one particular way, even if that way was the complete opposite of how some people acted. The entirety of Season 2 pushed the idea of #MyClementine, the final trailer even asks us "Who will you become?". Then ANF comes out, and says "Nvm, we decided for you lol" Craziness.
No doubt she's lost a lot of people, but that's not really something ANF builds on as much as it creates. It tells us why instead of developing that build up, just so it can develop one solitary solution. At the end of S2 there were quite a few different paths to take, you could stay with Kenny in an uncertain situation, listen to him and trust that Wellington is a safe place to stay, go with Jane, choose not to trust the family that shows up because they might be a threat, or choose not to trust anyone and go off on your own. ANF starts, and whatever you chose, you pretty much got the alone ending anyway. We're not playing as her, so we lose the ability to react to everything that has happened regarding our choices and the characters we did or didn't stick with, and how she, or we as the player, feel about that. In ANF, the Clementine we all played as became the same person.
And it doesn't get any better by the end. You can finish the game with everyone but 3 of the people she originally met in the first episode dead, and one of them sold the rest out to Joan in episode 4. They're living in a community that formed a mob to cheer on an execution of one, then quickly two, of their own members with little more than Joans assurance that she's not lying. I don't know that a jaded loner would want to return to a community like that, who was just forcefully taken over by a guy she knew for a few days.
I fully get where you're coming from, but sometimes it's best just to let things go to where ever the Star Wars Christmas special went instead of trying to fix it all. Bringing the Garcias back could very see Javiers character facing the same issue Clementines did, because there are a lot of variables regarding how he acted and interacted with other characters. Javier in my game embraced silence as a valid option, but I'm sure people have played in a variety of ways so having him act appropriately tailored to how people have played him would be difficult. And now I'm scared the solution will be forcing me to play as him again lol
There's no question that ANF was incredibly flawed, I'm not arguing with any of that.
You say you want to completely disregard Season 3 a… morend pretend it didn't happen....won't that just lead to more "static" Clementine, which was your main complaint in the first place? What happened to our choices having an impact on future episodes and seasons?
And sure, Clem had past relationships with good, dependable people that she could trust. But all those people were gone by the time she met Javier. Those experiences of loss turned her into a jaded loner. Now, she finally found a group of survivors that didn't all die or run off at the end...and she won't have the choice to return to them? That makes no sense. I'm just hoping Telltale provides a reasonable explanation as to why that is no longer an option.
Seriously, thank you! It's well thought out missives such as these that keep me coming back to this forum. I greatly appreciate your perspective and agree with you that it's all of our best guess of what TT decides to treat us to. Either way, I look forward to the ride!
From a strictly narrative point of view, it would make sense that the Garcia family doesn't make an appearance with a time jump. It would al… moreso make sense if the Garcia's weren't mentioned at all if that's the route that TellTale chooses to go. Clementine has lost or left everyone she has ever met. Even AJ is not exempt from this as he was lost during the entire ANF season. For it to be mentioned years later would take some incredible writing skills and coincidences to keep it from sounding unnatural, forced, and somewhat cheesey.
From a marketing point of view, it also makes sense that they'd want to distance themselves from ANF with the final season for sales purposes considering it's feedback. Yes, it's tragic for those who want closure in that area, or who enjoyed some characters from that entry. Every entry has some aspect of it fans wish could've been handled differently as different personalities appeal to different people.
For an… [view original content]
The entirety of Season 2 pushed the idea of #MyClementine, the final trailer even asks us "Who will you become?". Then ANF comes out, and says "Nvm, we decided for you lol" Craziness.
So what is your theory about why Telltale decided to so significantly diminish Clem's role in ANF? Why abandon the S2 goal of enabling the player to determine (and ultimately personalize) who she became? Was it their intention all along? Did things change during the development process?
You can finish the game with everyone but 3 of the people she originally met in the first episode dead, and one of them sold the rest out to Joan in episode 4.
Clem finally found a group of people who don't all end up dead or run away....that is significant when you consider the past two seasons and her attitude that everyone ends up the same, no?
Bringing the Garcias back could very see Javiers character facing the same issue Clementines did, because there are a lot of variables regarding how he acted and interacted with other characters
You are missing my point....I'm not asking for Javier and his family to play a significant role in the final season. I'm asking for the opportunity for Clementine to go back to Richmond with AJ at the end. It would provide closure to the ANF story (for those who told Clem to bring him back) and enable a small cameo role for Javi (which would avoid the variables you are talking about, yet enable him to make an appearance).
Javier in my game embraced silence as a valid option
To each his own, of course, but I'm baffled by people who choose silence in most situations....don't you think your gaming experience would be a bit more fulfilling if you choose options that actually invoke a fully thought-out response (instead of just a "why aren't responding to me!") from those you are interacting with?
This thread took off while I was gone lol. It's kind of hard to repeat the mistake they made with Clementine in ANF since she's no longer a … moreside character, and we'll once again be choosing how she interacts with people and in situations rather than watching her only do it in one particular way, even if that way was the complete opposite of how some people acted. The entirety of Season 2 pushed the idea of #MyClementine, the final trailer even asks us "Who will you become?". Then ANF comes out, and says "Nvm, we decided for you lol" Craziness.
No doubt she's lost a lot of people, but that's not really something ANF builds on as much as it creates. It tells us why instead of developing that build up, just so it can develop one solitary solution. At the end of S2 there were quite a few different paths to take, you could stay with Kenny in an uncertain situation, listen to him and trust that Wellington is a safe place to stay, go with Jane, ch… [view original content]
Still not sure how to do the separate quotes on my phone so I'll number each response.
1.) Honestly, everything from the new player character to the title not being Season 3 or even indicating it was a sequel to how they stressed the game would be welcoming to newcomers just makes it feel like it wasn't really designed around being a followup title. It feels like Clem was included solely to draw in fans of the previous games, but her character and presence was severely diminished to avoid alienating newcomers. Unfortunately, it alienated a lot of current fans and doesn't seem to have drawn in many newer ones.
2.) It's not much more significant than the endings of the previous 2. S1 ended on a cliffhanger, leaving us to wonder whether or not those two people in the distance were Omid and Christa. S2 starts with her already with them, and Christa visibly pregnant, so if it was them she's been with them for some time. S2 ends with everyone gone in only one ending. Otherwise, she's with Jane/Kenny/in Wellington. ANF ends with Tripp dead, Javiers niece dead, Ava dead, determinantly Conrad, Kate, Gabe, and David dead. And good ol Eleanor sold all of them out.
Whether or not you save as many people as you can or end up with just 2 of them alive, it ends the same, with the message supposedly being this family inspired her that things can still work out and she believes in people again. Because the magic number is 2? Or because he's now in charge of the community him and Kate just terrorized? I'm not sure which, but yea, apart from that last bit, watching a group of people slowly die out until there's just one or two left is just more of the same for her. This choice based game relies on you making the right choices for her character arc to make any sense. That's just not good.
3.) I'm not sure why she would after so much time has passed, or why she'd even assume it was still standing. But I have no problem with it being a possible ending, as long as Telltale keeps their Javier out of my game. I've no interest or desire to see him, but I don't oppose his appearance if it happens for people who want to go back there.
4.) Not at all, I found nothing fulfilling about ANF to begin with. I didn't like Javier, I didn't like how terrible he was with Spanish, and above all I didn't like how terribly different what he said was compared to the dialogue option I chose. Overall, I only subjected myself to the entirety of this game because I assumed we'd need the save data to keep my file going in Clems final game. I purchased the first two episodes of ANF on the day they came out in 2016. I played the final 3 episodes after the season pass went on sale at the end of December 2017. Had the TFS not been announced, I would not have played the rest of that game.
The entirety of Season 2 pushed the idea of #MyClementine, the final trailer even asks us "Who will you become?". Then ANF comes out, and sa… moreys "Nvm, we decided for you lol" Craziness.
So what is your theory about why Telltale decided to so significantly diminish Clem's role in ANF? Why abandon the S2 goal of enabling the player to determine (and ultimately personalize) who she became? Was it their intention all along? Did things change during the development process?
You can finish the game with everyone but 3 of the people she originally met in the first episode dead, and one of them sold the rest out to Joan in episode 4.
Clem finally found a group of people who don't all end up dead or run away....that is significant when you consider the past two seasons and her attitude that everyone ends up the same, no?
Bringing the Garcias back could very see Javiers character facing the same issue Clementines did, because … [view original content]
Even if Javi and his surviving family aren't part of TFS, surely they'll at least address it. A few lines from Clem about Javi and Richmond. Either, she got back after finding AJ and Richmond had fallen (the surviving council member sabotaged it or something) or it fell while she and AJ were there and she never saw Javi again or some other good explanation why Clem would choose to have AJ on the road instead of safe behind Richmond's walls.
Comments
They said TFS will start where AJ is already with Clementine. The fact that AJ will already be with Clementine when the game starts practically makes everything that happened in ANF non-canon, as Season 2 ends where Clementine is with AJ and TFS will start where they are together
Both Season 2 AND Season 3 started with a time jump from the previous season (heck, there were time jumps between episodes in Season 1!). Now you are just stating assumptions as fact....
She didn't leave Jane because she didn't trust her, she left because she was angry over the fact that she killed kenny over a stupid stunt Jane had pulled, and didn't want to be around her because of that. Clementine has the option of Killing Kenny after he kills Jane because he took things too far. Not because he couldn't be trusted.
Are you really that naive?????
What, a few weeks after Clementine meets up with Omid and Christa???? And ANF does not tie in with the previous games!!!! Everything that happened in Clementine's flashbacks in ANF takes place in the time after season 2 and before ANF, not during!
Whats the difference? Call it trust or something else. Bottom line: she decided to strike out on her own instead of stay with other people (same as she was at the beginning of S3).
Right, he took things too far. She doesn't trust him, he's dangerous.
Yes. Without proof of Telltale's true intentions, I believe that is a rectum-derived accusation. Other people have put forth the theory that Clementine was originally intended to be equally as playable as Javi, but the game was revised multiple times...That is just as plausible.
"There was an earlier version of the story where Javi was forced to join the New Frontier group and branded (against his will) in order to prove his trustworthiness/earn his place. He escaped, but still needed to retrieve his family (David, Gabe, and Mari) from their NF captors, which aligned his goals with Clementine’s search for AJ."
~Creative Director Alyssa
Someone leaving because they don't trust you and someone leaving because they can't tolerate you are two completely different things. I don't know how you can't see that.
Because she believes he'd turn on her and AJ next, right????????
And The World's Biggest Schmuck Award goes to....[drum roll]
Again, for whatever reason (you apparently don't like the word "trust"), she was wary of people at the beginning of Season 3. And your decisions as Clem at the end of Season 2 could justify that.
Right, Kenny can't be trusted to keep them safe anymore. Thanks for making my point.
And what is your response to those who say that earlier versions of the game had Clementine playing a bigger role (if not equal) to Javier? Why do that if she is just a filler to make more money? I'm not gonna stoop down into name calling.
Wtf am i assuming???????? Everything I've said so far is a fact.
Also, she stopped trusting people when AJ was taken from her, after she got kicked out of the New Frontier for trying to save AJ's life, even after she got branded with their mark.THAT'S when and why she stopped trusting people. Because you think otherwise, explain why she trusted Ava's offer she got kicked out, since you think she stopped trusting people at the end of S2
Calm down man, lets not get so heated, enjoy the debate.
You said AJ being with Clem at the start of TFS makes ANF non-canon. That's not a fact. How can you say that in any seriousness?
There's plenty of situations you can point to between Season 2 and 3 where Clementine would lose faith in other people, many of them are dependent on the choices the player makes. You could choose to continue on with Kenny/Jane or not. You could choose to accept Ava's offer or not, to name a few. It's open to interpretation based on your choices.
Trust
believe in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of
Tolerence
the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with
Based on common sense and your knowledge(which is now questionable) regarding Kenny's behavior during the events towards the end of S2, Did Clementine:
A ) Lose her trust in Kenny?
or
B ) Lost her tolerance for Kenny?
My sarcasm flew right over your head, didn't it? I'm not surprised though, seeing as how a lot of things seem to have flown over your head....
Go see a psychologist and a psychiatrist
because people make stupid decisions.
Well, when you're foolishly naive and say really stupid things, people are gonna call you names.
Why couldn't it be both? Why are they mutually exclusive? Did it take you a half hour to look up those definitions?
LOL nope. I think mine flew over yours on that one. It's okay though...
Not a good enough answer to my question. Your theory is as plausible as any other (maybe less so because, as DaBigRG pointed out, quotes from Telltale employees seem to contradict it, or at least suggest the possibility).
....Still waiting for you to justify your comment about ANF being "non-canon" because there a was time skip wherein Clem found AJ....
PLEASE tell me what events took place betwen S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in other people. You're gonna tell me she lost faith in Kenny because he forgot to put his seatbelt on??? That she lost faith in Edith for warning her that people were attacking, and getting shot in the head while trying to escape??? That she lost faith in AJ for scaring off the rabbit???? Those were the events that took place between S2 and ANF where she could've lost faith in people, and none of those are reasonable in the slightest bit, unless you're gonna argue that clementine insane.
She accepts her offer regardless, which is why we find her with the brand on her bicep
If TFS covers what happened in the flashbacks that clem had in ANF, then that only proves TFS wasn't canon
Well I meant between the ending of S2 and the flashbacks in ANF (could have clarified that better). So I would include Clem getting to see Kenny's slow descent into madness/rage and Jane's foolish decision to fake AJ's death. But beyond that, the flashbacks in S3 show Kenny and Edith dying (along with the fall of Wellington). Which leads to Clem's statement that "it always ends the same" (everyone she cares about dies). Adding to that, the New Frontier betrayed her by taking AJ and exiling her. Plenty of reasons to lose faith.
Yes, she ultimately does end up in the New Frontier. But the player does have the option to decline her offer at the time, suggesting she doesn't trust them or think she is better off on her own with AJ.
You should be more concerned with the fact you couldn't tell the difference between the two without me having to present them to you, rather than worrying about how long it took me to find them
LOL....I just meant that regardless of whether it be trust, or tolerance, or faith in other people.....she ultimately decided that she was better off on her own. That's the state we find her in when Javi meets her.
I think the actual reason she feels that way is up to interpretation by the player, based on past choices and how they view their version of Clem.
I was supposed to understand that from "between Season 2 and 3"?
choosing not to side with the New Frontier because she was better off on her own with AJ makes more sense than her not trusting them. At that moment she had no reason not to.
No, thats why I said I could have clarified better....but the flashback deaths and the New Frontier betrayal I mentioned happened between the two seasons, no? Are you disagreeing with those?
She had no reason not to trust someone that she never met before? Really? You would trust strangers in a zombie apocalypse? Have you ever watched the show...or played the game?
Here's a picture of a convicted murderer who she had never met in her life, yet befriended, and put all her trust in.
Have YOU ever played the game???? Do you hear yourself?
False equivalency. She met Lee when she was young and naive, before the world completely went to hell. For every good person like Lee, there are ten strangers who aim to rape, rob or kill. That is especially true several years into the apocalypse, and Clem knows it now.
Lets agree to disagree I guess....but I definitely don't think its out of the question for Clementine not to trust a stranger, especially based on all she had been through.
Why does the quote you cut from my previous post omit my question of whether you watch the show? Aren't most strangers on the show dangerous and untrusthworthy? In fact, overwhelmingly so?
OFcourse......
Now THAT I cann't agree on
It's not as interesting a debate when you cut so much of what I said and only respond to bits and pieces.
I was at least trying my best to respond to all your points...but thanks for the conversation!
I barely did that, but ok
Then why don't you re-read my posts and answer all the questions you missed? Is it because you don't have good answers?
LOL....good night!
Believe it or not, I actually was/still am doing other things as we spoke/speak, which is why my replies were late and didn't address everything. I answered what I could while multitasking. I'm sorry being fully engaged in an argument with you wasn't my top priority
It's "good morning" as it is 2:08 AM in eastern time....
No, you cut and pasted to answer what suited you best.
Yes but I'm going to bed, not waking up. Peace!
This thread took off while I was gone lol. It's kind of hard to repeat the mistake they made with Clementine in ANF since she's no longer a side character, and we'll once again be choosing how she interacts with people and in situations rather than watching her only do it in one particular way, even if that way was the complete opposite of how some people acted. The entirety of Season 2 pushed the idea of #MyClementine, the final trailer even asks us "Who will you become?". Then ANF comes out, and says "Nvm, we decided for you lol" Craziness.
No doubt she's lost a lot of people, but that's not really something ANF builds on as much as it creates. It tells us why instead of developing that build up, just so it can develop one solitary solution. At the end of S2 there were quite a few different paths to take, you could stay with Kenny in an uncertain situation, listen to him and trust that Wellington is a safe place to stay, go with Jane, choose not to trust the family that shows up because they might be a threat, or choose not to trust anyone and go off on your own. ANF starts, and whatever you chose, you pretty much got the alone ending anyway. We're not playing as her, so we lose the ability to react to everything that has happened regarding our choices and the characters we did or didn't stick with, and how she, or we as the player, feel about that. In ANF, the Clementine we all played as became the same person.
And it doesn't get any better by the end. You can finish the game with everyone but 3 of the people she originally met in the first episode dead, and one of them sold the rest out to Joan in episode 4. They're living in a community that formed a mob to cheer on an execution of one, then quickly two, of their own members with little more than Joans assurance that she's not lying. I don't know that a jaded loner would want to return to a community like that, who was just forcefully taken over by a guy she knew for a few days.
I fully get where you're coming from, but sometimes it's best just to let things go to where ever the Star Wars Christmas special went instead of trying to fix it all. Bringing the Garcias back could very see Javiers character facing the same issue Clementines did, because there are a lot of variables regarding how he acted and interacted with other characters. Javier in my game embraced silence as a valid option, but I'm sure people have played in a variety of ways so having him act appropriately tailored to how people have played him would be difficult. And now I'm scared the solution will be forcing me to play as him again lol
Seriously, thank you! It's well thought out missives such as these that keep me coming back to this forum. I greatly appreciate your perspective and agree with you that it's all of our best guess of what TT decides to treat us to. Either way, I look forward to the ride!
So what is your theory about why Telltale decided to so significantly diminish Clem's role in ANF? Why abandon the S2 goal of enabling the player to determine (and ultimately personalize) who she became? Was it their intention all along? Did things change during the development process?
Clem finally found a group of people who don't all end up dead or run away....that is significant when you consider the past two seasons and her attitude that everyone ends up the same, no?
You are missing my point....I'm not asking for Javier and his family to play a significant role in the final season. I'm asking for the opportunity for Clementine to go back to Richmond with AJ at the end. It would provide closure to the ANF story (for those who told Clem to bring him back) and enable a small cameo role for Javi (which would avoid the variables you are talking about, yet enable him to make an appearance).
To each his own, of course, but I'm baffled by people who choose silence in most situations....don't you think your gaming experience would be a bit more fulfilling if you choose options that actually invoke a fully thought-out response (instead of just a "why aren't responding to me!") from those you are interacting with?
Still not sure how to do the separate quotes on my phone so I'll number each response.
1.) Honestly, everything from the new player character to the title not being Season 3 or even indicating it was a sequel to how they stressed the game would be welcoming to newcomers just makes it feel like it wasn't really designed around being a followup title. It feels like Clem was included solely to draw in fans of the previous games, but her character and presence was severely diminished to avoid alienating newcomers. Unfortunately, it alienated a lot of current fans and doesn't seem to have drawn in many newer ones.
2.) It's not much more significant than the endings of the previous 2. S1 ended on a cliffhanger, leaving us to wonder whether or not those two people in the distance were Omid and Christa. S2 starts with her already with them, and Christa visibly pregnant, so if it was them she's been with them for some time. S2 ends with everyone gone in only one ending. Otherwise, she's with Jane/Kenny/in Wellington. ANF ends with Tripp dead, Javiers niece dead, Ava dead, determinantly Conrad, Kate, Gabe, and David dead. And good ol Eleanor sold all of them out.
Whether or not you save as many people as you can or end up with just 2 of them alive, it ends the same, with the message supposedly being this family inspired her that things can still work out and she believes in people again. Because the magic number is 2? Or because he's now in charge of the community him and Kate just terrorized? I'm not sure which, but yea, apart from that last bit, watching a group of people slowly die out until there's just one or two left is just more of the same for her. This choice based game relies on you making the right choices for her character arc to make any sense. That's just not good.
3.) I'm not sure why she would after so much time has passed, or why she'd even assume it was still standing. But I have no problem with it being a possible ending, as long as Telltale keeps their Javier out of my game. I've no interest or desire to see him, but I don't oppose his appearance if it happens for people who want to go back there.
4.) Not at all, I found nothing fulfilling about ANF to begin with. I didn't like Javier, I didn't like how terrible he was with Spanish, and above all I didn't like how terribly different what he said was compared to the dialogue option I chose. Overall, I only subjected myself to the entirety of this game because I assumed we'd need the save data to keep my file going in Clems final game. I purchased the first two episodes of ANF on the day they came out in 2016. I played the final 3 episodes after the season pass went on sale at the end of December 2017. Had the TFS not been announced, I would not have played the rest of that game.
Will we ever see the Garicía’s and Richmond in the future of The Walking Dead games? @mostlypoptarts
My honest opinion about all this?
I just don’t care.
Even if Javi and his surviving family aren't part of TFS, surely they'll at least address it. A few lines from Clem about Javi and Richmond. Either, she got back after finding AJ and Richmond had fallen (the surviving council member sabotaged it or something) or it fell while she and AJ were there and she never saw Javi again or some other good explanation why Clem would choose to have AJ on the road instead of safe behind Richmond's walls.