Telltale...this is NOT how you do this. (MAJOR TFS EPISODE 2 SPOILERS)
This is not how you handle a returning character, specifically Lilly.
You don't bring a character back and turn them into a villain. You made the right call in not doing that with Kenny when he was planned to return to Season 2, according to Telltale's commentary sharing minor details about the original script/plot.
But this is not Lilly. She doesn't help people kidnap or kill children. She doesn't help scumbag raiders burn communities down, especially when scumbag raiders destroyed her own community back in Season 1. Even if this is meant to be ironic in terms of character progression, this is grossly out of character.
I don't care for the 'years in the zombie apocalypse changes people' excuse, you don't become a mass-murderer in just a few years. Especially not if there were no signs of such horrid immorality back in Season 1. I get that she has killed Carley/Doug, but there's a difference between killing a suspected traitor in a group that caused bandits to destroy your home, and joining some bandits and openly killing numerous people while destroying their homes.
There's no gray and grey morality going on with Lilly and her actions just as it was back in Season 1, and there's no attempt to connect the dots with Lilly's long absence. Where's the option to tell her who was responsible for the theft in Long Road? Where's the option to tell her what has happened with Kenny and his family? Where's the option to ask her what has happened to Lilly when she was either left behind, or when she stole the RV?
What we get instead is a few lines here and there, and Lilly establishes herself as an antagonist when she tries to persuade Clementine to join the same community that had stolen Tenn's sisters, and then attacks her when she refuses. The the next scene with her, she's helping the raiders destroy the school and kill the children inside, those who refuses to go with them.
Considering the state of Telltale and how it has affected the development of The Final Season, bringing back Lilly and turning her into a villain honestly reeks of desperation for more dramatic moments in Clementine's story. This is less of a logical character progression, and more of an excuse to get the last-minute ratings.
This is exactly what I feared would happen when Lilly was confirmed to return for The Final Season, and I'm sorry to see that Lilly's role in Episode 2 had destroyed what's left of my interest in Clementine and the rest of her story in The Final Season, considering that there is a chance that The Final Season may be completed after all.
I'm sorry, Telltale, but this is the last straw for me.
Comments
I liked her, she was a total bitch xD
Well...we haven’t seen enough of her. She did hesitate when she got Clem at the end.
She was so nice before I told Violet to shoot her.
Complete fucking backflip. Understandable I guess.
I wouldn’t say there’s NO gray. I think, with the war her community got involved in, Lily found herself in over her head, not unlike Marlon. She was seeing people she knew and cared about - people who depended on her - die, and everything she had built was threatened. So someone suggested taking kids. She’s probably convinced herself that her plan is better for them, since how could a kid survive on their own? But she clearly shows remorse after killing Mitch. I think she’s not as okay with this as she wants everyone, and herself, to think.
She clearly feels conflicted about Clem though, it's not just black and white. This is only the second episode btw, we don't know alot about who Lilly has become yet. Who knows, she might even redeem herself.
(P.S. Lilly was always a bitch and this is just the natural evolution of her character.)
She didn't kidnap anyone the first time. Marlon willingly gave them up.
Lilly WAS a murderer. She killed Carly/Doug and had no remorse (for Carly). She was also openly hostile with everyone who didn't go along with her plans. She even openly admits she is "losing it." It's not hard to see her going on a slippery slope. She got kicked out of one group for murder, so she found her own way. She shows compassion, even if it is small, for Clementine TWICE in this episode. So, while she is a villain to the SCHOOL, she hasn't done anything to Clementine (up until she attacks the school at least).
The connecting of the dots can still happen. I mean, we're still waiting on the dots to connect with what happened at the Ranch as well as why Clem didn't go back to Richmond. Who's to say there isn't a stand off with Lilly and Clem only, where they both open up about what happened after they parted? Or, Clem gets captured trying to free the kids during an escape, and the "heart to heart" talk happens? They show that Lilly cares for Clem, there's still time to learn of Lilly's past.
Congrats to Blind for making it into the episode xD
I know right? What's next? A baseball bat wielding maniac? A self claimed governor who keeps fish tanks full of human heads as entertainment along with his undead 'daughter'? A group of cannibals who killed and ate their own children and a community that wears the skin of the dead?
The game is unfinished. She's in it for like 10 minutes. We'll probably learn more about Lilly in future episodes (if they happen). I don't know about you but the Lilly in my game showed some remorse and sadness so it's obvious that she's not entirely evil. Just conflicted.
They were established as villains in their debuts. Lilly wasn't. Their actions were initially, or consistently, immoral during their debut. Lilly's actions arguably weren't in her debut.
Even so, she still helped raiders kidnap and kill people, children even. Any signs of remorse or inner conflicts within her feels hollow knowing this.
I agree with the majority here. I can definitely see room for a good development of Lilly's character.
Also, since this topic allows spoilers, does Lilly treats you nicer if you brought her in the RV with you in Long Road Ahead? Maybe it's the same thing but since I left her back then I was just curious. She also told me she understand why Lee left her. If this has been spoken of already I apologize. I've just finished playing it and I'm still catching up with all the threads here.
She's a bit nicer. She's thankful Lee didn't just leave her on the side of the road but she thinks he was stupid for leaving her alone in the RV, allowing her to steal it, and for trusting her so much.
I was really hoping she’d mention/ask about Kenny. Sure, she has her reasons to be mad at Lee, but I’d imagine she’d have a bigger reason to be mad at Kenny and want to know what happened to the guy who took out her dad.
In my game she showed a couple moments of hesitation / conflict.
To me she always felt a bit like a bitch, even in S1.
When I saw the trailer for Ep 2 I was like "Yup, she's the villain all right" and I watched as people argued that she might not be but I still knew she was gonna be and people will rage over her character
Agree op , wrong direction to take the character of Lilly , they should of have her more lines or seeing her with her own group , kenny and Larry should of been mentioned , more back history , more one on one scenes with just Lilly and clem talking , it was great to see her again though I must admit and I wanted her to take the school lol
Should have been an option to just yell SALTLICK really loud xD
what are you talking about. This was the best character return in the entire series. Sure I think Lilly is a lunatic, but Clem needs an epic villain to fight. And Lilly is so badass in this episode. TT did a great job! Beside Lilly has been on the road for a long time, ofcourse she has changed. Even Clem has changed. Her people are in obvious danger from the other group and she wants to keep them alive, by any means necessary. And that's okay.
And who's a better villain than a former group member who you survived with together at some point? It's perfect because Telltale just gave us a villain who isn't a one dimmensional character. That's what we asked for, right? As to not add to the confusion - I totally agree with your post
Lilly was already flirting with villainy in season 1. It makes total sense she'd be an actual villain 8 years later. You're just mad because you built up some stupid imagining where Clem and Lilly were gonna hold hands and skip off into the sunset and hug it out and that's your own fault. 8 years of apocalypse hardens everyone. Lilly was never good person, even in season 1, so her being a pure villain makes sense.
In the drugstore when helping her get Larry his pills she wasn't bad , just stressed out , she was a broken woman after Larry was killed ,she was never a villain she has too much about her and if telltale wrote a choice where u could happily skip off with Lilly into the sunset a lot of players would do this
First interaction with Lilly: She's trying to leave kids out to be eaten. She was not a good person. Period.
First interaction with Lilly , she's trying to calm her dad down because she's CONCERNED for his health ,8 years later... She backs off her gun and offers to help clem up , fact
Have you heard the expression "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? It means being nice is generally more effective when you have an agenda. Her agenda was to get the kids. She was being nice trying to get Clem on her side so Clem would lead them back to the school. As soon as she saw Clem wasn't gonna go for it, she dropped the nice act.
I loved telling her that I’d be waiting in hell for her.
Butt hurt Lily fans. Love it.
It was hilarious how everyone just opened fire like the american police? Its like all they heard was kill everyone
I bet they were waiting for that
I mean there seems to be some bit remorse and hesitance in trying to kill Clem.
I think a lot of players seem to be forgetting that it's been many years since Clem has seen Lilly. People change over time and considering how many years it's been set between Season 1 and Season 4, Lilly was bound to be different.
Lilly is emblematic of my feelings while initially watching the episode.
I agree that she wasn't really used as she should in this episode as with only two scenes and they weren't all that great. She does seem a lot more like a black hat this season though, but it is her first appearance and the last time we saw her was 8 years ago. Consider how characters change and from an opposite stand point almost anyone can seem like a villain. There must be a plan to give some exposition as to what happened to her, but that remains to be seen. She's definitely not on the level of over the top stupid villainy of Carver, Joan or Randall. There's still a chance for her to be a more complex character.
Telltale wrote her as a scumbag in Season 1. Why are you surprised that she is one in Season 4?
Yeah, you do.
Because Kenny was never a bad guy.
She doesn't care about people either.
She killed Carley over a petty insult and you think that ain't immoral?
I doubt she'll give a fuck.
What did you expect? a hug? there was never gonna be a friendly reunion after what happened between the two.
Face it, you may think that she was a good person but the fact is, she never was, her actions spoke louder.
Did you think a backstabbing selfish murdering bitch would become Clem's guardian angel?
All because they kept a character the same they were before which was a scumbag? Telltale wrote her as a scumbag in Season 1. Why are you surprised that she is one in Season 4?
We haven't seen the whole season play out, and you can see that Lilly is conflicted. I'm guessing that the way her story plays out is going to be largely dependent on choices. Either she redeems herself, or cements herself as a villain, depending on how Clem treats her.
Its not really shes the villain and shes brought back, I think its because shes not explained how she got herself in the positions she is in now you know? If future episodes release I hope they give more backstory or atleast let us talk to her in a more normal way instead of at gunpoint. If this is about as far as they go and shes just this way Id be disappointed.
Uh, that's probably part of it, but not by much.
Uh, disagree. To some extent.
She’s still a bitch regardless of what you do from that point on.
I felt it fit rather perfectly. She killed someone based on a disagreement. Of course she was a villain!
Have to be honest.. I chose this option to..in Hope's of turning it around.. was hoping she'd drop her gaurd..lose her weapon and then the last thing she would hear my clem saying is teaching AJ to always double tap to make sure they are dead..
I'm really thrilled with the direction that they've taken Lily. She's the most complex enemy that we've faced in a TellTale game to date. It's so much more difficult to battle against someone you cared about once.
Love her or hate her, Lily was important to the survival of the S1 group up until she was the death of one. No one got to walk away from S1 with clean hands honestly. Lee began S1 as a murderer. Kenny kills someone whether in your game that's Larry, Carver, or both. Lily is no exception. Christa kills a little girl around Clementine's age that accidentally shot Omid while she's pleading.
Yes, this direction makes sense for Lily for the moment. She didn't want anyone to get killed. She wanted them to come fight in her war. Is it still wrong and wicked? Definitely, but conflicting.
Mmnmmnm.....
He always kills both.
It's a little debatable, but unless you mean presently, Michelle is sometimes described as being in her late teens. About Russell's age, even.
Could've been younger though.