She had PLENTY of reason to act like she did. She was a murderer. She intentionally kills Carley just for an argue (And accidentally kills Doug if you've chosen that). She witnessed the murder of his father, and by that time she already was losing it.
She can show some sort of kindness if you support her in the first episode of the first game, yeah, but she's totally hostile, agressive and paranoid.
Put all that into the mix and you have an even more justified villain that Carver or Kenny (If you're not his bro like I was). She has ALL the things she need to become a villain: Anger issues, distrust for people (After the events in the motel and the ST John's Farm), guilt. Hell, even if you're nice to her with Lee in the first game she just steals the RV and left you to just die there.
She didn't kidnap anyone the first time. Marlon willingly gave them up.
Lilly WAS a murderer. She killed Carly/Doug and had no remorse (f… moreor Carly). She was also openly hostile with everyone who didn't go along with her plans. She even openly admits she is "losing it." It's not hard to see her going on a slippery slope. She got kicked out of one group for murder, so she found her own way. She shows compassion, even if it is small, for Clementine TWICE in this episode. So, while she is a villain to the SCHOOL, she hasn't done anything to Clementine (up until she attacks the school at least).
The connecting of the dots can still happen. I mean, we're still waiting on the dots to connect with what happened at the Ranch as well as why Clem didn't go back to Richmond. Who's to say there isn't a stand off with Lilly and Clem only, where they both open up about what happened after they parted? Or, Clem gets captured trying to free the kids duri… [view original content]
Totally agree with this!!!
She had PLENTY of reason to act like she did. She was a murderer. She intentionally kills Carley just for an a… morergue (And accidentally kills Doug if you've chosen that). She witnessed the murder of his father, and by that time she already was losing it.
She can show some sort of kindness if you support her in the first episode of the first game, yeah, but she's totally hostile, agressive and paranoid.
Put all that into the mix and you have an even more justified villain that Carver or Kenny (If you're not his bro like I was). She has ALL the things she need to become a villain: Anger issues, distrust for people (After the events in the motel and the ST John's Farm), guilt. Hell, even if you're nice to her with Lee in the first game she just steals the RV and left you to just die there.
You know what? I'm going to just take the fact people are pretty split on whether or not this is in character for Lilly as a sign that they're doing something right with her.
Whether or not she could be handled/written better, at least people don't seem to unanimously agree she's handled poorly, or vice versa.
I did mean around Clem's current age. Some people debate whether or not Larry was 'alive' when that lick dropped, so for those individuals I included that in their headcannon he could've just been killing a walker there not Larry.
She's the most complex enemy that we've faced in a TellTale game to date.
Mmnmmnm.....
Kenny kills someone whether in your gam… moree that's Larry, Carver, or both.
He always kills both.
Christa kills a little girl around Clementine's age that accidentally shot Omid while she's pleading.
It's a little debatable, but unless you mean presently, Michelle is sometimes described as being in her late teens. About Russell's age, even.
Could've been younger though.
After season 2 and 3, I was personally tired of hardened season 1 characters returning as allies. It's a nice change to have one be against you this time, even though she still cares a little for Clem.
I like that about Lilly. As of now she's potrayed as a villain but she isn't a one dimensional character. On one hand she wants to do what's best to her community as a whole, on the other she has a history with Clementine and its obvious (if you chose correct dialogues) that Lilly still cares about Clem and it makes it a difficult dilemma for her. I've seen to much of villains that are like totally evil. I much prefer those that operate more in the grey areas of morality. It makes them more human and believable.
After season 2 and 3, I was personally tired of hardened season 1 characters returning as allies. It's a nice change to have one be against you this time, even though she still cares a little for Clem.
I've seen to much of villains that are like totally evil. I much prefer those that operate more in the grey areas of morality. It makes them more human and believable.
The thing with that though is that half of the ones in the TWD games themselves were indeed intended to be somewhat morally compromising and understandable in their methods on some level.
The problem was that the storytelling and overall character portrayal often failed to sufficiently uphold this or maintain the character's perspective for very long before the necessities of the plot and/or inconsistent direction weakened and/or doomed it.
I like that about Lilly. As of now she's potrayed as a villain but she isn't a one dimensional character. On one hand she wants to do what's… more best to her community as a whole, on the other she has a history with Clementine and its obvious (if you chose correct dialogues) that Lilly still cares about Clem and it makes it a difficult dilemma for her. I've seen to much of villains that are like totally evil. I much prefer those that operate more in the grey areas of morality. It makes them more human and believable.
I agree, she had less screentime for one of the main Season 1 characters and her motivation sucks ass, kidnapping children for preparation of a war. I know she shouldn't be Kenny 2.0 but Lilly was nothing like herself, she hated the Save-Lot Bandits and she joins a group of murderous bandits, not the same but still the same type of survivors. Look at Kenny, he was still himself in Season 2, a kind-hearted man who cares for people close to him, he didn't even hate Clementine if Lee didn't side with him in Season 1.
But what bothers me is that Clementine has no option to tell Lilly that killing Carley was a mistake and it was Ben to begin with. If there is, show me because I watched just one playthrough.
Big difference was Kenny was gone for two years and managed to group up with a bunch of nice people whereas Lilly killed a member of the group, disappeared for five to six years and obviously met up with a bunch of not so nice paramilitary assholes.
I agree, she had less screentime for one of the main Season 1 characters and her motivation sucks ass, kidnapping children for preparation o… moref a war. I know she shouldn't be Kenny 2.0 but Lilly was nothing like herself, she hated the Save-Lot Bandits and she joins a group of murderous bandits, not the same but still the same type of survivors. Look at Kenny, he was still himself in Season 2, a kind-hearted man who cares for people close to him, he didn't even hate Clementine if Lee didn't side with him in Season 1.
But what bothers me is that Clementine has no option to tell Lilly that killing Carley was a mistake and it was Ben to begin with. If there is, show me because I watched just one playthrough.
But throughout Season 1, Lilly did seem to care for Clementine as she:
1. asked where her mom was.
2. talked with her at the motel according to Jolene's camcorder, they seem to be smiling at each other.
3. wanted to find out the truth behind the stolen medical supplies because she didn't want any supplies for Clementine to go missing, according to "What if Clementine gets sick and we don't have what we need?"
I really don't like how she treats her in The Final Season, forcing her to join the Raiders for a war, it feels out of character.
Big difference was Kenny was gone for two years and managed to group up with a bunch of nice people whereas Lilly killed a member of the group, disappeared for five to six years and obviously met up with a bunch of not so nice paramilitary assholes.
Lilly also spends a grand total of three (and a half?) months max with Clementine compared to the who knows how long she's spent with her community.
It's explained through James that her community is already at war with another and they've gotten to the point where they need child soldiers. Throughout the episode you can see that Lilly may not want to do it but needs to. She's even shown remorse/shock when she realises what she did to Mitch so it's obvious she's not all bad and there's still a bit of the old Lilly inside her somewhere.
But throughout Season 1, Lilly did seem to care for Clementine as she:
1. asked where her mom was.
2. talked with her at the motel accordi… moreng to Jolene's camcorder, they seem to be smiling at each other.
3. wanted to find out the truth behind the stolen medical supplies because she didn't want any supplies for Clementine to go missing, according to "What if Clementine gets sick and we don't have what we need?"
I really don't like how she treats her in The Final Season, forcing her to join the Raiders for a war, it feels out of character.
Lilly also spends a grand total of three (and a half?) months max with Clementine compared to the who knows how long she's spent with her co… moremmunity.
It's explained through James that her community is already at war with another and they've gotten to the point where they need child soldiers. Throughout the episode you can see that Lilly may not want to do it but needs to. She's even shown remorse/shock when she realises what she did to Mitch so it's obvious she's not all bad and there's still a bit of the old Lilly inside her somewhere.
Tbf Lee and the others were strangers and as I saw Lilly doesn't trust strangers so you can't really blame her for being passive aggressive towards them at first. Especially that the whole time she tried to protect her father as best she could.
Tbf Lee and the others were strangers and as I saw Lilly doesn't trust strangers so you can't really blame her for being passive aggressive towards them at first. Especially that the whole time she tried to protect her father as best she could.
But throughout Season 1, Lilly did seem to care for Clementine as she:
1. asked where her mom was.
2. talked with her at the motel accordi… moreng to Jolene's camcorder, they seem to be smiling at each other.
3. wanted to find out the truth behind the stolen medical supplies because she didn't want any supplies for Clementine to go missing, according to "What if Clementine gets sick and we don't have what we need?"
I really don't like how she treats her in The Final Season, forcing her to join the Raiders for a war, it feels out of character.
You know what? I'm going to just take the fact people are pretty split on whether or not this is in character for Lilly as a sign that they'… morere doing something right with her.
Whether or not she could be handled/written better, at least people don't seem to unanimously agree she's handled poorly, or vice versa.
No, Lilly’s view is that you have to be a part of a big, well-off group to survive. If you say to her in the beginning that “she’ll die first” over AJ, she says that you can’t solve all your problems by simply killing the enemy. To her it’s all about the long game.
The funny thing is that, unlike Kenny, Jane, and to an extent Edith in ANF, they were pretty damn faithful in adapting Lily's face into the newer "artstyle."
And that's partly the problem.
The funny thing is that, unlike Kenny, Jane, and to an extent Edith in ANF, they were pretty damn faithful in adapting Lily's face into the newer "artstyle."
And that's partly the problem.
No, Lilly’s view is that you have to be a part of a big, well-off group to survive. If you say to her in the beginning that “she’ll die firs… moret” over AJ, she says that you can’t solve all your problems by simply killing the enemy. To her it’s all about the long game.
Well deep down inside, she knows she doesn’t want to do this but she’s desperate when at War with another community...So who knows what’s behind closed doors.
I wouldn’t say there’s NO gray. I think, with the war her community got involved in, Lily found herself in over her head, not unlike Marlon… more. She was seeing people she knew and cared about - people who depended on her - die, and everything she had built was threatened. So someone suggested taking kids. She’s probably convinced herself that her plan is better for them, since how could a kid survive on their own? But she clearly shows remorse after killing Mitch. I think she’s not as okay with this as she wants everyone, and herself, to think.
I agree too. She shows so much restraint in episode 2. She could have killed Clementine a few times and didn't showing she does have this grey area of morality. She definitely did use the excuse in the woods of "How did you survived on your own" and "You will die like Lee" because she has convinced herself that she is doing kids a favor because they can't survived on their own. She has convinced herself what she is doing is okay. And in the post apocolyptic world. Who says it isn't. Having kids fight in your war? I mean countries do that in real life lol.
To answer the post though, Lilly was always a retched cunt. She killed Lee's only shot at a post apocolyptic wifey for no reason other than losing an argument and defended her psychotic racist nut bag father in all his group hurting decisions. I took great pleasure in smashing the old bastard with a salt rock and I hate Lilly. If given the chance to kill her with Clem, My Clem will take the shot.
I wouldn’t say there’s NO gray. I think, with the war her community got involved in, Lily found herself in over her head, not unlike Marlon… more. She was seeing people she knew and cared about - people who depended on her - die, and everything she had built was threatened. So someone suggested taking kids. She’s probably convinced herself that her plan is better for them, since how could a kid survive on their own? But she clearly shows remorse after killing Mitch. I think she’s not as okay with this as she wants everyone, and herself, to think.
I was really hoping she’d mention/ask about Kenny. Sure, she has her reasons to be mad at Lee, but I’d imagine she’d have a bigger reason to be mad at Kenny and want to know what happened to the guy who took out her dad.
Lilly was already flirting with villainy in season 1. It makes total sense she'd be an actual villain 8 years later. You're just mad because… more you built up some stupid imagining where Clem and Lilly were gonna hold hands and skip off into the sunset and hug it out and that's your own fault. 8 years of apocalypse hardens everyone. Lilly was never good person, even in season 1, so her being a pure villain makes sense.
@RichWalk23 oh come on now! People change a lot over time and it is very likely for Lilly to have changed. Bumping into the wrong crowd and adapting to be a ruthless survivor.
Just because you didn’t like how Telltale made her return doesn’t mean they handled her poorly. I thought it was very like Lilly. She was always a bitch from day one. Fuck Lilly
I'm really thrilled with the direction that they've taken Lily. She's the most complex enemy that we've faced in a TellTale game to date. It… more's so much more difficult to battle against someone you cared about once.
Love her or hate her, Lily was important to the survival of the S1 group up until she was the death of one. No one got to walk away from S1 with clean hands honestly. Lee began S1 as a murderer. Kenny kills someone whether in your game that's Larry, Carver, or both. Lily is no exception. Christa kills a little girl around Clementine's age that accidentally shot Omid while she's pleading.
Yes, this direction makes sense for Lily for the moment. She didn't want anyone to get killed. She wanted them to come fight in her war. Is it still wrong and wicked? Definitely, but conflicting.
(I wrote the text below in another thread, but I feel it also applies here.)
I really think they nailed Lilly's characterization. She's clearly the final season's antagonist, but they've also given her a nice layer of conflict. It's obvious she's been hardened by the "walker age," but unlike Abel, who delights in the freedom of killing and maiming without any fear of the law stepping in, she also seems to secretly despise it. Lilly turning into a straight-up villain isn't a big stretch, as she was already starting on a dark path when we left her.
She reminds me a little of Kylo Ren, in that you're intrigued to see more of Lilly, instead of wanting her killed off almost immediately. (Well...IMO. I know there are some players who will always thirst for her blood no matter what, because of Carley/Doug.)
i don't really think this is an unrealistic development of her character, just the least preferable one imo. this was EXACTLY what i was afraid they were gonna do to her, make her the leader of the raiders and a thief (the no. 1 thing she was against in s1). like, i get why they did it, i just wish they had done something different lol. it's just so typical, making the authoritative woman into a bitchy villain... smh
Lilly was an asshole with a chip on her shoulder who couldn't handle stress and became a murderer when challenged non-violently. Add 5 years to that and see how she breaks.
Why should Clem and Lily have some imaginary best friend reunion after nearly a decade of knowing each other only for a couple of months. THAT would be bad writing.
Clementine doesn't even remember Lily on first sight.
Why should Clem and Lily have some imaginary best friend reunion after nearly a decade of knowing each other only for a couple of months. THAT would be bad writing.
Clementine doesn't even remember Lily on first sight.
Comments
Totally agree with this!!!
She had PLENTY of reason to act like she did. She was a murderer. She intentionally kills Carley just for an argue (And accidentally kills Doug if you've chosen that). She witnessed the murder of his father, and by that time she already was losing it.
She can show some sort of kindness if you support her in the first episode of the first game, yeah, but she's totally hostile, agressive and paranoid.
Put all that into the mix and you have an even more justified villain that Carver or Kenny (If you're not his bro like I was). She has ALL the things she need to become a villain: Anger issues, distrust for people (After the events in the motel and the ST John's Farm), guilt. Hell, even if you're nice to her with Lee in the first game she just steals the RV and left you to just die there.
And [even more] questionable sanity and/or intelligence
You know what? I'm going to just take the fact people are pretty split on whether or not this is in character for Lilly as a sign that they're doing something right with her.
Whether or not she could be handled/written better, at least people don't seem to unanimously agree she's handled poorly, or vice versa.
I did mean around Clem's current age. Some people debate whether or not Larry was 'alive' when that lick dropped, so for those individuals I included that in their headcannon he could've just been killing a walker there not Larry.
After season 2 and 3, I was personally tired of hardened season 1 characters returning as allies. It's a nice change to have one be against you this time, even though she still cares a little for Clem.
I like that about Lilly. As of now she's potrayed as a villain but she isn't a one dimensional character. On one hand she wants to do what's best to her community as a whole, on the other she has a history with Clementine and its obvious (if you chose correct dialogues) that Lilly still cares about Clem and it makes it a difficult dilemma for her. I've seen to much of villains that are like totally evil. I much prefer those that operate more in the grey areas of morality. It makes them more human and believable.
The thing with that though is that half of the ones in the TWD games themselves were indeed intended to be somewhat morally compromising and understandable in their methods on some level.
The problem was that the storytelling and overall character portrayal often failed to sufficiently uphold this or maintain the character's perspective for very long before the necessities of the plot and/or inconsistent direction weakened and/or doomed it.
Nah, Its handled well. Based on her character in season 1 I always saw her as turning villain after losing what she cared about.
And its not like she is a villain anyways. Not entirely anyways. She is obviously conflicted about everything she is doing
I agree, she had less screentime for one of the main Season 1 characters and her motivation sucks ass, kidnapping children for preparation of a war. I know she shouldn't be Kenny 2.0 but Lilly was nothing like herself, she hated the Save-Lot Bandits and she joins a group of murderous bandits, not the same but still the same type of survivors. Look at Kenny, he was still himself in Season 2, a kind-hearted man who cares for people close to him, he didn't even hate Clementine if Lee didn't side with him in Season 1.
But what bothers me is that Clementine has no option to tell Lilly that killing Carley was a mistake and it was Ben to begin with. If there is, show me because I watched just one playthrough.
Big difference was Kenny was gone for two years and managed to group up with a bunch of nice people whereas Lilly killed a member of the group, disappeared for five to six years and obviously met up with a bunch of not so nice paramilitary assholes.
But throughout Season 1, Lilly did seem to care for Clementine as she:
1. asked where her mom was.
2. talked with her at the motel according to Jolene's camcorder, they seem to be smiling at each other.
3. wanted to find out the truth behind the stolen medical supplies because she didn't want any supplies for Clementine to go missing, according to "What if Clementine gets sick and we don't have what we need?"
I really don't like how she treats her in The Final Season, forcing her to join the Raiders for a war, it feels out of character.
Lilly also spends a grand total of three (and a half?) months max with Clementine compared to the who knows how long she's spent with her community.
It's explained through James that her community is already at war with another and they've gotten to the point where they need child soldiers. Throughout the episode you can see that Lilly may not want to do it but needs to. She's even shown remorse/shock when she realises what she did to Mitch so it's obvious she's not all bad and there's still a bit of the old Lilly inside her somewhere.
Yeah but Lilly telling Clementine that she will die like Lee was full of rudeness.
Her first impressions in the original game weren't to great either to be fair.
Tbf Lee and the others were strangers and as I saw Lilly doesn't trust strangers so you can't really blame her for being passive aggressive towards them at first. Especially that the whole time she tried to protect her father as best she could.
That's a good point.
She also get Clementine her hair scrunchies and apparently her backpack.
She is the villain of my dreams
Yeah, the last time I saw people this divisive over a character was with Kenny and that feels like ages ago.
Yeah, Lily does look really ugly. Majorly poor form, Telltale. This should've never happened. It's actually scary I'm going to stop looking.
Chuck said something similar though. And tbh, Lee died because he was taking care of them. Lilly's view is that being alone is the safest.
No, Lilly’s view is that you have to be a part of a big, well-off group to survive. If you say to her in the beginning that “she’ll die first” over AJ, she says that you can’t solve all your problems by simply killing the enemy. To her it’s all about the long game.
The funny thing is that, unlike Kenny, Jane, and to an extent Edith in ANF, they were pretty damn faithful in adapting Lily's face into the newer "artstyle."
And that's partly the problem.
I don't know how to explain it..but her face just seems more skinny. Eyebrows and shit. D'oh!
Which is why she does some pretty shortsighted and mindless shit in practice throughout the episode.
Examples?
Well deep down inside, she knows she doesn’t want to do this but she’s desperate when at War with another community...So who knows what’s behind closed doors.
She cares about this kids in a way but for the wrong intentions.
I agree too. She shows so much restraint in episode 2. She could have killed Clementine a few times and didn't showing she does have this grey area of morality. She definitely did use the excuse in the woods of "How did you survived on your own" and "You will die like Lee" because she has convinced herself that she is doing kids a favor because they can't survived on their own. She has convinced herself what she is doing is okay. And in the post apocolyptic world. Who says it isn't. Having kids fight in your war? I mean countries do that in real life lol.
To answer the post though, Lilly was always a retched cunt. She killed Lee's only shot at a post apocolyptic wifey for no reason other than losing an argument and defended her psychotic racist nut bag father in all his group hurting decisions. I took great pleasure in smashing the old bastard with a salt rock and I hate Lilly. If given the chance to kill her with Clem, My Clem will take the shot.
Same, and most importantly tell her about Ben.
LMAO, OH SNAP!????
@RichWalk23 oh come on now! People change a lot over time and it is very likely for Lilly to have changed. Bumping into the wrong crowd and adapting to be a ruthless survivor.
Just because you didn’t like how Telltale made her return doesn’t mean they handled her poorly. I thought it was very like Lilly. She was always a bitch from day one. Fuck Lilly
I dont think we ever confirmed Lee was a murderer..
(I wrote the text below in another thread, but I feel it also applies here.)
I really think they nailed Lilly's characterization. She's clearly the final season's antagonist, but they've also given her a nice layer of conflict. It's obvious she's been hardened by the "walker age," but unlike Abel, who delights in the freedom of killing and maiming without any fear of the law stepping in, she also seems to secretly despise it. Lilly turning into a straight-up villain isn't a big stretch, as she was already starting on a dark path when we left her.
She reminds me a little of Kylo Ren, in that you're intrigued to see more of Lilly, instead of wanting her killed off almost immediately. (Well...IMO. I know there are some players who will always thirst for her blood no matter what, because of Carley/Doug.)
i don't really think this is an unrealistic development of her character, just the least preferable one imo. this was EXACTLY what i was afraid they were gonna do to her, make her the leader of the raiders and a thief (the no. 1 thing she was against in s1). like, i get why they did it, i just wish they had done something different lol. it's just so typical, making the authoritative woman into a bitchy villain... smh
Lilly was an asshole with a chip on her shoulder who couldn't handle stress and became a murderer when challenged non-violently. Add 5 years to that and see how she breaks.
Why should Clem and Lily have some imaginary best friend reunion after nearly a decade of knowing each other only for a couple of months. THAT would be bad writing.
Clementine doesn't even remember Lily on first sight.
Agreed.