Does anyone else hope we get an option to tell Lilly that she was right about Ben?
Anyone lowkey want this to happen in Ep 3 or 4?
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Anyone lowkey want this to happen in Ep 3 or 4?
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yes please
Yeah. She should know she is who she is because of Ben.
It would be great to put that as an option, but she’ll probably just shrug it off just like when she noticed that Lee wasn’t with Clementine.
Clementine: Ben drowned...in his guilt.
Real question, did Clem even know what was going on with all that? Is that something Clem would even know to be able to tell Lilly. I don't recall Lee telling Clem about Ben being a giant fuck up.
Ah yes, it wouldn't make sense actually, since from my memory, the only way Clem finds out is if you bring her to Crawford? When Kenny and Ben fight?
Not only that, but it happened 7 years ago.
I doubt Clem has that strong of an understanding of whatever was going on with the group's internal conflicts. Like Clem's strongest memory of Lily is her killing Doug/Carly (which was an obvious traumatizing moment) and her dad being a racist. Her memory is largely visceral.
And Clem pretty much remembers Ben as her friend no matter what.
Carver too, he was who he was because of that fucking Ben kid lol. Please don't put all that on Ben. Ben made 1 mistake. He was trying to bide time. He was loyal until the very end. The bandits were around looking for heads or resources regardless if Ben broke bread with them. The hate for Ben is so unjust.
My issue with him is that he didn’t even tell the others that he came in contact with bandits. He’s not a little kid. That was really stupid of him. It’s also his fault Carly/Doug died.
I wouldn't put Carly/Doug's death on Ben since that was a result of Lily's unstable mental state and increasing paranoia.
I don't think Lily would care much at this point about it and I don't think Clementine ever comprehended what the situation was at the time.
Who caused it? The person stealing from them to supply the bandits, namely Ben. If he had just been straightforward from the beginning, she wouldn’t have went on a witch hunt.
They didn't die at the motel from the bandits, they died from an unhinged Lily suffering from severe paranoia and mental instability. Had Lily kept her composure, Carly/Doug would've lived through the episode most likely.
Lilly was right about Ben, but she was right for the wrong reason. She didn't have any evidence. She didn't investigate and she was just accusing anyone who she didn't trust. She got it right by luck. When provoked by Carley, Lilly changed her mind and killed Carley instead. So yeah, she was right about Ben, but not because of her own merits.
Had Ben not been so stupid as to trade the goods of the people he only JUST met in return for “safety”, Lily wouldn’t have shot anyone. It’s all his fault. You blaming Lily instead of Ben is like blaming a bullet that hit someone and not the person who pulled the trigger.
"So...I'm going to guess Ben's dead too."
"Yeah. He's dead."
"Did he do it?"
"Do what?"
"Steal our supplies."
A) Seriously? It doesn't matter anymore.
B ) Yes, he did.
C) No, he didn't.
D) .....
E) They're all dead.
Because Lily killed them of her own free will with initially baseless claims and a deteriorating physche state. Lily killed Carly because Carly had had enough of Lily telling her off resulting in Lily shooting her in the head.
With Doug, he was killed from taking the bullet for Ben resulting in his death at the hand of Lily.
In both cases, Lily was the direct and main cause of death. Lily held the gun and pulled the trigger, Ben didn't do either. That's like saying Katjas death is directly Ben's fault when it was Katja's own choice just as it was Lily's choice of killing Carly/Doug.
Yes, I really hope we'll get to talk to Lilly in the next episode. Like we did to Kenny.
What a ridiculous comparison. Lilly shot the gun, she's the one who pulled the trigger.
Can I just point out that in season 4, Marlon did the same thing as Ben but handled it much worse. Marlon was handing children over to fight in a war, lied about it to his FRIENDS, killed Brody to keep it a secret, was going to give Clementine and Aj up to the bandits and then tried to pin Brody's death on Clementine. Ben gave medication to the bandits (Sure, it was needed, but at least it wasn't Clem) and lied about it because the leader (Lilly) was becoming unhinged. Ben only blamed himself for all of his actions and never killed anyone just because they knew his secret. And from what I can tell, Ben gets more shit than Marlon.
I doubt that Marlon knew what they wanted the twins for. If they had known, Brody would have spilled it when she spilled everything else. It hasn't been confirmed, but here's my take on things happened. Marlon, Brody, and the twins are out scavenging. They run into a group of people and are outgunned. The people want to take the kids but Marlon won't allow it. The people offer Marlon a deal, they take the twins, he and Brody go free. No fighting, no one dies. Marlon weighs the odds and figures if they fight, all of the kids will either be killed or taken, so he takes the deal. Better to save 2 than none. So far, he's done nothing wrong. People can argue and cry foul and say he should have fought, that they would have, but it'd be stupid to if they were outnumbered and outgunned.
Here's where Marlon really fucked up. He lied to the other kids about what happened. He made no effort to find and rescue the twins. And then when Brody spilled the beans, he lashed out and hit her, accidentally killing her. Then he continued to fuck up and locked Clem in the basement hoping walker Brody would kill her and then when Clem survived, he blamed Brody's death on her.
That's fucking moronic.
You're literally contradicting yourself here. Lilly pulled the trigger.
And the whole reason for her shooting Carley/Doug isn't even the whole Ben fiasco. That was just the tipping edge, the thing that pushed her over. Lilly's issues were much more long term. She was breaking down ever since her daddy got his head crushed.
I would tell her in a heartbeat, you were right about then this whole entire time.
And kneel for forgiveness.
Im saying that the person who pulled the trigger(Ben trading w the raiders) should be blamed for the gun that went off(Lily interrogating everyone) and the bullet that hit someone (Lily shooting Carley). @Cheddarhead
Ben was dealing with outsiders behind everyones back, shortening their supplies needed to survive in return for “safety”. When the raiders didn’t get their supplies, they came starting trouble, and from that trouble drew in walkers, one of which killed Duck, who’s death was followed up by Katjaa’s suicide. Him naively believing that raiders were going to keep them safe and trading with them set off a whole chain reaction that resulted in the deaths of 3 group members and the desertion of another. Everything is his fault.
No way that is what happened. The Delta would've captured all of them. Here's what I think happened:
They're out hunting, raiders come, Marlon and Brody are in one area and the twins are in another (still close vicinity) Marlon spots them and taks to them behind a tree with his bow sticking out of the tree. The raiders come up with the sisters deal because Marlon says they are outnumbered 'I lead a strong community! Ya don't wanna mess with us! (remember he's still a kid) especially since it's only Abel and Lily. They need to head back to their group anyway for something important that is before the Ep2 war. Marlon conviced Brody to stay under a log and keep her , mouth shut. Since then, the raiders have only visited areas in the circle but Marlon shrunk that circle.
You are blaming Ben for the actions of individuals who acted on their own free will. It's not Ben's fault that Lily shot Carly for being told off in front of the group just as it isn't Ben's fault that Doug was killed in Lily's intensifying paranoia and instability.
Its not Ben's fault that Kajta committed suicide, that was Katja's choice that she made of her own free will and thought. Just because Ben is to blame for the initial event, it doesn't mean he's to blame for the actions of those around him. Carly and Doug would have survived the episode most likely had it not been solely for Lily's actions out of baseless paranoia and her damaged physche.
Well we can agree to strongly disagree ?
It is exactly Ben's fault that Lilly was paranoid. She was paranoid specifically because someone was stealing supplies. If Ben hadn't been stealing supplies she wouldn't have gone so far off the deep end. Ben is almost as responsible for Carly's death as Lilly is, and is especially responsible for Doug's death since Lilly was rightly accusing Ben and started to shoot him and Doug tried to save Ben and got himself killed.
Oh my god you’re a genius??
...
Lily was going off the deep end either way after her father died and mounting tensions in the group with Her and Kenny's conflicting leadership and direction was reaching a boiling point. Not to mention the bandit attacks and dwindling supplies of the town reducing their resources regardless of Ben's actions.
And no, Ben wasn't the cause of Carl's death, Lily killed her because she got called out in front of the group by Carly and as a result she was shot and killed.
Lily was rightly accusing Ben, but went about it the wrong way. Her claims was baseless (which she admitted) and she had no evidence or concrete facts other than a suspicion and then begin to accuse Carly of stealing the rations with having little to no evidence connecting her to it.
Regarding Doug, you can't blame Ben for the actions of Doug. Doug willingly sacrificed himself without having any reason or need to. He did that on his own accord and actions. As I said before, You can blame Ben for the situation, but not for the actions of those around him which they made of their own free will and choice.
Lily wasn't going to kill Carly because she suspected her of stealing, she killed her from Carly telling her off. Ben and the bandits did not make Lily shoot Carly or Lily shooting her. Both were direct actions and consequences from both of their own individual actions.
E) doesn't really apply, since Kenny's fate is determinant, and we're still unsure about what happened to Christa.
He could of tried to make another deal which didn't involve losing a member of the group(e.g. food, water, medical supplies. Delta can't be heaven with everything the people need - they must have a shortage of something other than children to send to war.) . Plus, not knowing what would of happened to the twins is even worse as they could of be tortured, raped and killed. But, I agree with everything else. Marlon and Ben fucked up at the same point - not telling anybody. The big difference is is that Marlon was what? Seven or eight years into the apocalypse while Ben was only 3 months in, meaning that he hadn't had enough time to adapt to the new world before the bandits started knocking on the door.
Lilly left right before Christa and Omid joined the group, she wouldn't know about them.
I dont want to tell Lilly anything more honestly. She'll just spin it in a way so that she feels justified in what she has done and is currently doing. Just like how she did when she finds out about Lee. There'd be no benefit to it, unless you like Lilly and for some reason think we'll be given the choice to join her lol.
She didnt even have any actual evidence that it was Ben, I don't want to enforce her crazy and make her think her gut feeling is always right.
Also, I liked Ben. I found his character to be complex and I sympathized with him after he yelled at Kenny. I think the Kenny/Ben death scene was the perfect ending for him and I think we should just let his character rest. I dont want to give Lilly the pleasure of knowing she was "right." In fact, if she outright asked Clem about it, I would lie and say it wasn't him.
i don't wanna give her the satisfaction
Lily never knew Christa.
She still applies, since she appeared in the same episode shortly after Lilly left Clem's group. Any S1 characters prior to episode 5 qualify in my opinion, regardless of whether they met Lily or not. If they're a part of Clem's life during that period, they count, and that includes Chuck and Molly.