My only gripe about the Tales series...
...is the use of recycled faces throughout the game, which only seems to happen with the shorter fatter characters.
I don't mind when this is used for characters that only have relatively small parts but when there are those that are present a lot throughout the entire series, such as Mr Winslow, I feel it detracts from the value of the character when they look very much like so many other characters in the series.
I may be wrong but I feel as though the news reporter from episode 1, Mr Winslow and the bailiff are all more or less the exact same character model, merely with alterations in skin color and different hair/facial hair applied almost reminiscent of putting different face and hair parts on a Mr Potato head toy. I just feel as though a slight bit more effort could have been put in to these characters to make them look a little bit different from each other.
I am such a fan of Monkey Island overall that usually when someone comes up with a negative about the series I invent some excuse for it or overlook it entirely but this is more or less the only negative I have personally. Does anyone else feel the same or am I just being picky?
Overall it's a fantastic game and as a whole I think the episodes are on par with MI2 which was the best in the series in my opinion. :cool:
I don't mind when this is used for characters that only have relatively small parts but when there are those that are present a lot throughout the entire series, such as Mr Winslow, I feel it detracts from the value of the character when they look very much like so many other characters in the series.
I may be wrong but I feel as though the news reporter from episode 1, Mr Winslow and the bailiff are all more or less the exact same character model, merely with alterations in skin color and different hair/facial hair applied almost reminiscent of putting different face and hair parts on a Mr Potato head toy. I just feel as though a slight bit more effort could have been put in to these characters to make them look a little bit different from each other.
I am such a fan of Monkey Island overall that usually when someone comes up with a negative about the series I invent some excuse for it or overlook it entirely but this is more or less the only negative I have personally. Does anyone else feel the same or am I just being picky?
Overall it's a fantastic game and as a whole I think the episodes are on par with MI2 which was the best in the series in my opinion. :cool:
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I can definitely see what you mean, and it's not just the short fat model either--a lot of the characters share models with other characters. I think they've got better at disguising it as the series has gone on, though.
Yep. It was rather annoying in the first chapter, but i think they did a good job at hiding them afterwards. You still can notice them, but way less.
Also, i don't know if it was related to this, but not having Nipperkin in the last chapter sure helped there.
AND D'Oro. Caused me much confusion during the Trial
Congrats, you just uncovered the second-biggest conspiracy in the ToMI storyline!
Short/Fat models:
Nipperkin
D'oro
Winslow
Bailiff/arguing pirate
Noogie
Audience in court
Judge/bartender
Tall/Thin Models
Glass Blower
Pirate with artifact
Pirate whose nose you break,
Pirate with nol legs+Cat
Bartender guy in manatee
I think that's all of them. They weren't really noticeable in chapter 3.
Technically, the merperson model was also recycled for the three Vakalian characters in chapter 2, and Guybrush's model was recycled for De Cava.
Once again, thank you Wiiware.
You were shocked by the power of suggestion, then, because though they have similar body types, they're different.
Ehnnn... Just because they're both lean people, doesn't mean they're the same model. Guybrush's waist isn't as skinny as DeCava's, for one.
Well me too here I go.... I think Jake said in a different, other, previous, probably buried under an X, dont try to find it thread.... that he wished he could be as cool as me... true story.
lol!
I don't get why people are genuinely bothered by the recycling of models. Sure, TTG base the characters on similar models. But then, you don't look at two cars and go "they're both about 15feet; that's just ridiculous and lazy!"
I know people are genuinely bemused by this, I just can't get my head around it (past the possible lack of memorable features for some of the earliest introductions). D'Oro and Nipperkin are very different characters, just as Guybrush, Bugeye et al. All have very different characters.
Y'know, I think its the hair; half of the earliest ones didn't have any
I do miss the days of 2D when each character was a little more unique... but I'm not going to dwell on it.
yeah, for mindless hordes of enemies and such. i fail to see how that relates at all.
Also, there's a third model used by Bugeye and one of the people LeChuck fights in chapter 2.
It relates because I said it silly
The graphics in a game are all about the concept. They are a means of representing in a visual format an idea. Just because Robert Downey, Jr. played as Iron Man and Sherlock Holmes (upcoming film) doesn't mean I'm going to go crying to the manager at the theater demanding they find a new actor and quit reusing the same ones. Now if the entire movie had only Robert as the entire cast that might be a bit much, but Eddie Murphy pulled it off with some success (by changing the look of the character(s)).
In LotSN there were a lot of very similar looking characters. The later episodes have greatly remedied this. I no longer have problems distinguishing between even the minor characters, despite the fact they may have similar (or the same) models. It's about adding enough discernible changes so as to actually distinguish the two characters from each other. That's the important bit.
Just coz Krebbs and the Voodoo Lady share the same voice actress it doesn't mean I'm going to start accusing TT of being too cheap to hire more people. They sound totally different. This is the exact same concept, just of the visual variety. TT just has to be sure to make the characters visually different enough from each other so as to mask the fact that they may be reusing the same model.
QFW!
While I admit that in the first chapter it was so bad I actually thought all the tall thin pirates where the same character at first, from chapter 2 onwards it really became a non issue for me because of how much better Telltale had gotten at hiding the character models. I still noticed it but it really wasn't anything of an issue anymore
You didn't like my analogies, yet didn't contest my point that I was trying to make with said references. Am I to take this to mean that despite disliking my choice of examples you actually agree with what I was trying to say?
Either way I still hold by what I said. But you're entitled to your own opinion as well.
The tall/thin ones seem to have a little more variety put on them (different headgear/clothing).
1) Disney reused animations VERY subtly and artfully in DIFFERENT films, through the better part of a CENTURY of animated film making. Nobody would ever notice them without serious analysis, and they used completely different artwork and character designs for them. This issue is not about animations, it's about the character models WITHIN the same game.
2) Comparing using the same actor in DIFFERENT movies is just ridiculous. Again we're talking about within the same game. Also, actors can change their form and face considerably for different roles. They are not locked into a polygonal shape and size. Comparing it to an Eddie Murphy film is getting a touch closer to the mark, but in Eddie Murphy films that IS the gimmick and it's advertised up front. You're supposed to marvel at his talent in changing himself. You're not supposed to think of the characters as different actors. And again, the difference between his characters is HUGE in terms of form and appearance. He uses fat suits, make up, special fx, etc. Not at all analogous with using the SAME MODEL for every character.
3) Comparing audio to visual is again apples to oranges. However, that said, I do have a bit of a problem with similar voice acting in the series as a lot of the voices are a bit mundane in register. But getting to the point, comparing using the same voice actor in different roles is almost like the Eddie Murphy comparison. Voices are incredibly elastic instruments. Tone, timbre, pitch, register, volume, accent, etc can all be changed drastically from the same person. This is completely different than a static character model.
Regardless of all of that: your central point is moot from the start. Yes I agree, what matters at the end of the day is that they look visually different ENOUGH in the end to fool the viewer. But that's exactly what our problem is, and what inspired this thread, they don't look different enough to a lot of us. In fact they are ridiculously similar to many of us. Many of them are nearly identical to the point of actually confusing the gamer trying to follow the story, and at best they're still obviously the same models and there's painfully few deviations from about 3 or 4 character types. So reiterating a bunch of times that the point is to make them look different enough just fell flat, we know that's the point and our point is that they didn't do that.
Furthermore, is "enough" really what we should expect? Not to invoke Office Space, but wouldn't it be better and more professional to go beyond "enough"? Should we settle for the same character with different clothes and a different voice? Or should we reasonably expect what all classic monkey islands, and all classic stories in general have, which is every character being unique? A key part of the joy of MI 1, 2, 3 is the huge variety of crazy characters of all shapes and sizes. Replace all of them with 3 or 4 Mr. Potato Head templates, and just change their clothes and hair, and you have a very different legacy.
Actually here's an analogy for you: think about the SoMI sword fighting. A lot of those characters have the same face and body, but different clothes and hair. It worked in that small portion of the game, because they were supposed to be nameless generic pirates. But imagine if the ENTIRE game were just those templates for basically all the characters? Maybe that will clarify where I'm going.
I understand that my examples didn't necessarily compare reusing the same materials within the same spectrum as reusing the same models within the same game. In that respect I can appreciate they weren't very strong examples. Though the point I was trying to convey clearly was still able to get across. You say that you "know that's the point" when it comes to reusing the models. Again, after LotSN this wasn't any longer an issue for me.
I appreciate the point of this thread and I wasn't trying to entirely discount its merit. When the reuse of the character models leads to actual ambiguity between the characters who are supposed to be distinct and unique from one another that is a problem.
As far as the SMI analogy goes those pirates actually all shared the same body and two different heads (I believe there may have been variation in facial hair, and there was a variation of headgear, but only two heads were drawn). You're right that if all the characters shared the same body with these pirates that would have drastically affected the gameplay for the same reasons that the reuse of models here is/has affected players.
My point previously was largely intended to have taken into account the changes that TT have made throughout the series to help remedy the problem. Comparing TTaEoGT with LotSN would reveal a lot of measures that have been implemented thus far to resolve the problem. I'm fairly certain that if TT gets license to do a second season of Tales that they will take further measures to ensure problems like this do not persist.
Part of my post was directly addressing the idea that reusing the same models is a sign of how cheap and/or lazy TT is, or that they don't care enough to put forth proper effort in designing these games. That's why I said that it's not a new concept. As you pointed out even in SMI there was reuse of the secondary character sprites. Even many of the townsfolk walking around the island were composed of only a few "Mr. Potato Head" parts. Tales doesn't really have characters that you can't interact with in some way. Every character plays some role in the storyline. However not every character plays a major role.
I think this may have been part of TT's justification in the reuse of the models to begin with. Albeit every character affecting the storyline is important, certainly some are more important than others. I doubt anyone would say Nipperkin is more or even equivalently important in comparison to Morgan.
So despite the fact my examples may not have been the best, I'm glad we can both see each other's points.
Yes but you can't compare cars to characters. :rolleyes: The Tales series overall is majestic but in my opinion it's just one thing that is noticeable enough that it should have been improved on a little bit more. It's not something that really bothers me it's just like seeing a small stain on a picasso painting or something like that.
Don't get me wrong I think there are some key characters that warrant their own face, model and design (Guybrush, Elaine, Le Chuck, De Singe) but I also think there are some semi-key characters such as MR Winslow that are present enough throughout each episode to also warrant this. Because there are so few characters throughout each episode in the series (understandably so) and you tend to spend a fair bit of time conversing with each one this makes some of them feel a bit unoriginal. The characters in Episode 3 were a different matter altogether, as they were all entirely different and it felt as if each had been uniquely crafted which gave them a great originality and was one of the greatest aspects of that episode for me. I just wish the same level of care or closer to it could have been given to many of the other characters.
I wonder if telltale will make any changes to the content in the released disc version or if each chapter will now be released as is?
I don't remember the names for each character because they all look alike.. it's very cheap.. I love how people try to find excuses..
Depends if your idea of a car is A-B or whether your a car connoisseur!
I was more shocked by what came up in the search. Lets just say, it's NSFW.
I'm honestly not too bothered about reused character models, solong as i can distinguish between characters, which i can.