Frustrating Showdown

Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

That was artificial prolonging of gameplay at its best (or worst, as you like). Hasn't this type of bad design from the dark (Sierra)ages abolished a long time ago? What on earth is the sense of watching the same sequences of animations over and over again because you misclicked, or clicked one sec late, other than frustrating the audience? And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
You can do better than this, in all other games where I suspected a tedious "try this n that for the umpteenth tim" puzzle was coming up, there always was a knack that made it playable (and not frustrating). Please keep to that and don't resort to this cheap type of game time expansion in the future.
«1

Comments

  • edited December 2009
    I absolutely don't agree with you. Actually if you play in order to have "movie like sequences" or "logical sequences", only one repeats itself. (because you can use your hook on both rope and mainsail)

    Then of course, if you take 3hours to complete that puzzle, yeah that repeats itself.

    But then it's like picking up the same dialog lines over and over. It depends on what you want to see. I actually like to play in order to make the game more "realistic", I try not to make them repeat themselves...

    I admit the last fast repeated itself a bit for the first time. But once knowing what you have to do, it's just great actually.
  • edited December 2009
    Phoonzang wrote: »
    Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

    That was artificial prolonging of gameplay at its best (or worst, as you like). Hasn't this type of bad design from the dark (Sierra)ages abolished a long time ago? What on earth is the sense of watching the same sequences of animations over and over again because you misclicked, or clicked one sec late, other than frustrating the audience? And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
    You can do better than this, in all other games where I suspected a tedious "try this n that for the umpteenth tim" puzzle was coming up, there always was a knack that made it playable (and not frustrating). Please keep to that and don't resort to this cheap type of game time expansion in the future.

    Bad design? It's no different from any other MI game showdown, once you know what to do its fast and flows easily, but if you don't, it repeats itself until you do. The only reason it might SEEM different is because you already know to use the root beer or how to make the voodoo doll, or to blow up the ice, etc.
  • edited December 2009
    if you ask me thatz was the BEST showdown of all MI Games!
    MI1: the final fight was only picking up a bottle and use it on LeChuck.
    MI2: ok the reasambeling of the Voodoo doll was nice but it was no "fight more a running away"
    MI3: once again it had no tension and was solved to quick
    MI4: KONKEY COMBAT!!!!!!
    MI5: The Games was over right befor you confrontet LeChuck^^
    ToMI: a Real Fight with Nice Puzzels and a fearsome LeChuck
  • edited December 2009
    All MI showdowns were like that, including the Monkey Kombat one, and I love them.
  • edited December 2009
    I was frustrated at the begining, when I didn't know what to do, doing little things (just because I could do them, but without really know why I needed them), and being keelhauled over and over again...
    But suddenly all the puzzle pieces got in place in my brain, with that happy catharsis when you think "so, THAT is what I was meant to do!". And from there, I did all the final showdown smooth as silk, with a great feeling of fulfillment for being capable to do it without any (external) hints. And the solution to the next puzzle, while quite obvious (you don't have THAT many things on your inventory, you don't have too many options or possible things to do) gave me the same feeling.
  • edited December 2009
    Bad design? It's no different from any other MI game showdown, once you know what to do its fast and flows easily, but if you don't, it repeats itself until you do. The only reason it might SEEM different is because you already know to use the root beer or how to make the voodoo doll, or to blow up the ice, etc.

    This, I replayed it before and the fight was fast:
    - As soon as it starts, use the Hook on the Sail
    - Tell Elaine to Fight LeChuck
    - Grab the Keys
    - Get knocked up the mast again
    - Wait for LeChuck to throw you down
    - Unlock the Barrels
    - Use Broken Door with Barrel
    - Use Hook on Rope
    - Get threw down off the perch
    - Tell Elaine to Light The Cannon
    - Stand on Door

    Done :)
  • edited December 2009
    I agree 100%. The overall episode was great, no question. But that final scene was incredibly annoying. Never having enough time to look around, having the same animation of being kicked around the ship over and over...
  • edited December 2009
    I would just add to use your hook on the barrels before to ask Elaine to fight Lechuck. Otherwise that makes Guybrush too omniscient. Like he knew the keys in the water would open them..

    Adding that makes the fight perfect and logical.

    You don't have the same animations if you do what you have to do...
  • edited December 2009
    Phoonzang wrote: »
    And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
    This one frustrated me, too. But apart from that, it was just like in the final part of "Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge", when you needed to collect all the ingredients for a Voodoo Doll, while LeChuck could appear any second to beam you into a different room. That could be frustrating, too. But suspenseful on the other hand.
  • edited December 2009
    Strayth wrote: »
    I would just add to use your hook on the barrels before to ask Elaine to fight Lechuck. Otherwise that makes Guybrush too omniscient. Like he knew the keys in the water would open them..

    The point was though to make the fight fast, having Guybrush use the Hook on the Lock just makes him say "No Use, my Hook won't fit in this lock" adding no real point in the fight.
  • edited December 2009
    I loved the last battle very much, but I agree it can get very frustrating, and it was a lot more frustrating for me in the old games too because they gave you less time to look around your surroundings. (except for the first which I always figured out what to do on the first punch and never got thrown anywhere) I think the frustration adds to it though, the only one I felt was really bad was when I kept trying to get ON the see-saw door and apparently I kept pressing the wrong key and LeChuck just threw me around the place two times before I finally got it right.
  • edited December 2009
    Ash735 wrote: »
    This, I replayed it before and the fight was fast:
    - As soon as it starts, use the Hook on the Sail
    - Tell Elaine to Fight LeChuck
    - Grab the Keys
    - Get knocked up the mast again
    - Wait for LeChuck to throw you down
    - Unlock the Barrels
    - Use Broken Door with Barrel
    - Use Hook on Rope
    - Get threw down off the perch
    - Tell Elaine to Light The Cannon
    - Stand on Door

    Done :)

    That only works when you know what you are doing, that's no good on the first-time through play, which we'll never be able to experience again. I'm going to have to agree with the original poster, having to go through the sequences again and again until you know what you're doing was irritating; I felt it detracted considerably from what should have been a climactic experience.
  • edited December 2009
    S@bre wrote: »
    That only works when you know what you are doing, that's no good on the first-time through play, which we'll never be able to experience again. I'm going to have to agree with the original poster, having to go through the sequences again and again until you know what you're doing was irritating; I felt it detracted considerably from what should have been a climactic experience.

    But, from the post I quoted anyway, is this different from the other games? In MI1 you'd just keep getting punched around Melee Island and back to Stans Shipyard, MI2 you'd be walking round those tunnels for a long time and just keep getting sent to another part when LeChuck arrives. in MI3 you'd just be seeing the same four screens over and over and just go to the next one every time LeChuck appears.

    The only problem I have with Tales is that LeChuck can take his time, but this needs to be done to equal out the time it'll take you to ask Elaine to Light The Cannon AND get on the door.
  • edited December 2009
    even if you dont know what you are doing it doesnt take to long:
    - use hook with rope
    - look at sail and hear that the Rip is direkt behind it
    - get pushed down
    - talk to elain an tell ehr to fight lechuck when he is in the rip
    - look at canon
    - get pushed up on the mast
    - use hook with sail
    - look at the barrels
    - get under water and see the keys
    - wait till you get thrown up and down the mast
    - tell elaine to fight lechuck
    - grap keys
    - wait till you get thrown up and down the mast
    - unlock the barrels
    - Use Broken Door with Barrel
    - Use Hook on Rope
    - Get threw down off the perch
    - Tell Elaine to Light The Cannon
    - Stand on Door
  • edited December 2009
    hmm I thought it was great but was kinda frustrating as I worked out what exactly I needed to do ( as with any puzzle really). One thing that baffled me though was when you had to step onto the seesaw. When Lechuck punched me from right up the top, by the sail I couldn't step onto the seesaw as Guybrush just examined it. When he punched me from the balcony I could. Which begs the question, why should it matter which position you were when Lechuck punched you down,to step onto the seesaw.
    Sorry if this sounds like a silly observation but that made me think.
  • edited December 2009
    It reminded me of the final in S&M 106. I really don't like time pressure in adventure games. For me this was the weakest scene in the whole season.
  • edited December 2009
    I agree 100%. The overall episode was great, no question. But that final scene was incredibly annoying. Never having enough time to look around, having the same animation of being kicked around the ship over and over...

    Yes, as much as I love it as the latest Monkey Island game I do feel the same way. It was obnoxious and your movements were so restricted. Similar to being stuck on a roller coaster in MI-3. :rolleyes:

    It was obnoxious. Still it was a great game all together.
  • edited December 2009
    well I think that this scene, if anything reminds us more of the good ol days. They had this sort of time pressure puzzle at the end of MI1,MI2 and MI3, so it would make sense to include it at the end of tales.
  • edited December 2009
    Phoonzang wrote: »
    Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

    I think the puzzle itself was very good. However, I got kinda depressed by the end, poor zombie Guybrush was taking such an insane amount of beating, and just enduring, enduring. It was kinda sad after the 3rd round, really...
  • edited December 2009
    I loved the showdown on the ship! You could really feel Guybrush's pain in this one, and re-watching some of those animations were a delight. Even the puzzle itself was plannable after I figured out the layout of the ship. Definitely one of my favorite adventure game showdowns.
  • edited December 2009
    No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

    Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the
    shrinking of the sponge
    onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

    So no, I didn't think it was "cumbersome" and "frustrating" and "waaah too hard ;_;".
  • edited December 2009
    No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

    Steady on buddy, no need to get uncivil over it. You like it how it is, that's fine, but no reason to insult dissenters.
  • edited December 2009
    The big problem was that you needed Lechuck to attack you to progress, so rather than being tense and nerve wracking it was just a little dull and frustrating. You needed a way to get around the ship on your own. It also helps if the puzzles make some kind of sense, the finale had a very bad case of finding solutions first, problems second.
  • edited December 2009
    Phoonzang wrote: »
    Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

    That was artificial prolonging of gameplay at its best (or worst, as you like). Hasn't this type of bad design from the dark (Sierra)ages abolished a long time ago? What on earth is the sense of watching the same sequences of animations over and over again because you misclicked, or clicked one sec late, other than frustrating the audience? And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
    You can do better than this, in all other games where I suspected a tedious "try this n that for the umpteenth tim" puzzle was coming up, there always was a knack that made it playable (and not frustrating). Please keep to that and don't resort to this cheap type of game time expansion in the future.

    Yes it was horrible. I kept thinking to myself 'is this actually fun?' It wasn't. :(
  • edited December 2009
    S@bre wrote: »
    Steady on buddy, no need to get uncivil over it. You like it how it is, that's fine, but no reason to insult dissenters.
    I suppose not. But it's generally things like not making "frustrating gameplay" or keeping puzzles from being "illogical" that have castrated the adventure genre. Now, I do think there is such a thing as a bad puzzle, as an illogical puzzle, but this isn't one of them.

    The only thing I would have done differently is have there be a way to "initiate" the LeChuck attack. Perhaps being able to yell an insult at him. Because otherwise you do end up standing around for a bit if what you need to do is on the other location.
  • edited December 2009
    The most frustrating part of it was when my game bugged and LeChuck decided not to hit me around anymore, forcing me to load an older save (think it went as far back as when I had just obtained the locket). Didn't happen the 2nd time fortunately.
  • edited December 2009
    The most frustrating part of it was when my game bugged and LeChuck decided not to hit me around anymore, forcing me to load an older save (think it went as far back as when I had just obtained the locket). Didn't happen the 2nd time fortunately.
    The same thing happened to me, actually. I just saved at that spot, re-loaded that save, and LeChuck decided to start beating me up again.
  • edited December 2009
    The same thing happened to me, actually. I just saved at that spot, re-loaded that save, and LeChuck decided to start beating me up again.

    theres still good inside him he had second thoughs about pumling guybrush
  • edited December 2009
    No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

    Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the
    shrinking of the sponge
    onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

    So no, I didn't think it was "cumbersome" and "frustrating" and "waaah too hard ;_;".

    I love reading your posts sometimes.
  • edited December 2009
    I love reading your posts sometimes.
    Sometimes I look back on them and feel remorse. "Should I have been that harsh? I was probably too harsh." This was one of those. I still feel pretty strongly against the idea that the final battle was anything but a couple steps from perfection though, and a far cry from archaic and frustrating.
  • edited December 2009
    I loved the ship showdown, reminded me of the fight with lechuck at the end of MI2 :)
  • edited December 2009
    Okay, So I am really mixed in my opinion about the final fight. It was frustrating, but not for being illogical or ill planned. It was brilliantly conceived, except for the inability to move on one's own.

    Waiting around for Lechuck to beat me and throw me to the location I needed to go to was annoying. Why couldn't I just WALK to the other side of the deck, or CLIMB the ladder on the mast? By the time I figured out where everything was and what I needed to do, I had to wait around for Lechuck to finish clobbering me before I could do any of it.

    TLDR:

    The puzzle was great, it was logical and well constructed. Navigating the puzzle was annoying.
  • edited December 2009
    Sometimes I look back on them and feel remorse. "Should I have been that harsh? I was probably too harsh." This was one of those. I still feel pretty strongly against the idea that the final battle was anything but a couple steps from perfection though, and a far cry from archaic and frustrating.

    Nah, truth hurts.
  • edited December 2009
    Rather Dashing, do you see now why I said you're sometimes "grumpy"? :p Don't worry, you're generally harsh but fair.
    I have to say I took quite awhile to solve the last puzzle and it killed me to see Guybrush get beaten like a pinata. I actually felt my throat getting tight, and my brain started racing trying to figure out how to solve the puzzle so I wouldn't have to keep watching him suffer. I've never reacted so strongly to a video game character. Books, movies, cartoons etc. yeah, but not to a game. I think it was a pretty amazing puzzle to get that kind of reaction out of me, and to be able to sustain it through my half an hour of blind fumbling as well.
  • edited December 2009
    Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the
    shrinking of the sponge
    onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

    A tad strong, perhaps, but I agree pretty much entirely.

    I'm a grown man, playing a point 'n' click game (am I the only one irritated by the omission of point-click interface?), and I got a little rush once or twice when LeChuck came into
    Club41 and the jungle
    . Sure, logically he wasn't gonna end the game like in an action-game, but I was so immersed in the story that I forgot about that.
    Demon-pirate-god
    LeChuck was apocalyptically badass and his makeover, plus the great voice-acting and the lovely moody atmospheres all added to a feeling of excitement that I haven't felt in MI since being chased around the tunnels beneath Dinky Island as a tiny kid.

    The final sequence was astonishingly beautiful. The ship, the deep reddish tinge to everything, zombie-Guybrush,
    un-demonised
    Elaine,
    Demon-god
    LeChuck and were all great. The voice acting from Dominic Armato especially impressed me. Whenever we've had Guybrush he's been a cheesy, naive, fun guy. That changed in ep4, though I felt the scenes were always over-reaching themselves. For ep5 I felt Dom gave a great performance and the writing was very good. Sure, the scenes got frustrating after the third cycle, but unless you were overly dim I don't see why Guybrush would get knocked through the cycle more than 4-5 times and although the reuse of LeChucks comments was a tad disappointing, TTG don't have a massive budget and made this game in a month. It was hardly game-destroying.
  • edited December 2009
    The showdown with LeChuck was easily the best puzzle in chapter five.
  • edited December 2009
    Bagge wrote: »
    The showdown with LeChuck was easily the best puzzle in chapter five.

    It's true. Though, I can't say I'm happy with it.
  • edited December 2009
    Falanca wrote: »
    It's true. Though, I can't say I'm happy with it.

    How so?
  • edited December 2009
    I loved the climax puzzle. It was perfect. You just can't quit the game if you reach that point. You really get motivaton when you see Guybrush being hit again and again.

    Feeling the urge to help him defeat LeChuck was the needed part to get to the end.

    I also like that it sparks controversy, btw. The fact that some of you don't like it because it makes you feel SAD ABOUT A CHARACTER is probably the best compliment a game designer can get.
  • edited December 2009
    Bagge wrote: »
    How so?

    Well, that showdown part is what I call a "special" aspect where the game sets a new rule (which oftenly restricts you) and you have to solve a puzzle in that condition (examples being the last meeting with Conroy Bumpus in Sam and Max: Hit the Road where you can't go anywhere, or the showdown in MI2 where LeChuck is tracking you and makes it harder for you to make a voodoo doll of him). The thing is, those "special" rules are mostly set to give a "final boss part" feeling into the scene. Problem is, a game that tests your reasoning abilities should put a really hard puzzle at the very end of the game, and because of that "special rule" there is something that doesn't go in your favor which makes it even harder for you to beat the game. So, those parts are generally hated by players because it takes away too much time even for someone who knows how to solve the puzzle, and it just gets frustating for someone who tries to know how to solve it.

    It's a rare condition that a "special" scene like that is the most appreciated of all other puzzles. I can come into that conclusion: The other puzzles in the episodes are really weak and easy compared to that showdown. It's a letdown for me, so I'm unhappy about it.
Sign in to comment in this discussion.