Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.
In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.
You can't alter your thoughts that well, you need to have something in your hands to make it change your thoughts. And you know, "thinking about things" is a really risky thing when it comes to make a spell using that power. It's about BOTH the thoughts AND the concrete ingredients. You can't use a voodoo item if you don't believe it.
Love is a feeling you know, a gathering of multiple thoughts.
Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.
In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.
Wouldn't the Love thing complement the Voodoo spell? Mere Voodoo by itself couldn't resurrect him fully, it needed to be aided by... the power of love (I can't write this without hearing Huey Lewis in my head).
You can't alter your thoughts that well, you need to have something in your hands to make it change your thoughts. And you know, "thinking about things" is a really risky thing when it comes to make a spell using that power. It's about BOTH the thoughts AND the concrete ingredients. You can't use a voodoo item if you don't believe it.
Love is a feeling you know, a gathering of multiple thoughts.
Emotions are not important in voodoo. As I recall, in Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady clearly says that Voodoo does not have the power to bring someone back to life - that a force GREATER than Voodoo was required. Although it has been a few days so I may be misquoting it.
Guybrush had given up his last strand of life to defeat Le Chuck, so he was truly dead. Voodoo no longer had the power to resurrect him. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of his marriage ring. The point of that scene was that the love shared between Guybrush and Elaine is MORE powerful than Voodoo. It's the old cliche that Love Conquers All.
This notion that emotions are an integral part of Voodoo is entirely revisionist. The Voodoo Lady has never stressed that emotions are important in Voodoo at all - she also never tells Guybrush to 'search his feelings' so to speak. In fact, even in the Fifth Episode of ToMI, the game never explicitly states that emotions are a necessary part of Voodoo. If the game does not explicitly state something as fact, then it is mere interpretation - which means Telltale can and probably will change the interpretation to fit whatever story they decide to go with for Season 2.
Edit Sorry Eduardo I didn't see your post. The Voodoo Lady said that a power GREATER than Voodoo would be required to resurrect Guybrush. Love therefore must be a force that is SEPERATE to Voodoo and stronger than it. So emotions are not a crucial part of Voodoo.
Using the power of voodoo is special, everyone can't be guided for it after all. Using the power of love to make voodoo spells more powerful may be the case in this one. I think Voodoo Lady couldn't use the power of love after the disappearance of DeCava, so it's impossible FOR HER to add this in her spells so she may be completely avoided this aspect while talking.
Emotion of believing voodoo or emotion of loving someone is all feelings, and can be used to improve voodoo I believe. You can't ressurrect yourself by only love, that'd mess things up a lil.
Emotions are not important in voodoo. As I recall, in Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady clearly says that Voodoo does not have the power to bring someone back to life - that a force GREATER than Voodoo was required. Although it has been a few days so I may be misquoting it.
Guybrush had given up his last strand of life to defeat Le Chuck, so he was truly dead. Voodoo no longer had the power to resurrect him. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of his marriage ring. The point of that scene was that the love shared between Guybrush and Elaine is MORE powerful than Voodoo. It's the old cliche that Love Conquers All.
This notion that emotions are an integral part of Voodoo is entirely revisionist. The Voodoo Lady has never stressed that emotions are important in Voodoo at all - she also never tells Guybrush to 'search his feelings' so to speak. In fact, even in the Fifth Episode of ToMI, the game never explicitly states that emotions are a necessary part of Voodoo. If the game does not explicitly state something as fact, then it is mere interpretation - which means Telltale can and probably will change the interpretation to fit whatever story they decide to go with for Season 2.
To be fair, I'm about to speak from both a conjectural/speculative and a philosophical viewpoint ... but I find it funny that you're only referring to "emotions." I don't think of love that way, at least not singly so. Emotions, like feelings of affection and passion, can change at the drop of a hat. In my eyes, love requires demonstrable action—even when one isn't feeling particularly "loving" at the moment—in order to have real, lasting meaning. So we're not talking about Guybrush bringing himself back to life because he possessed the ring, recognized its significance, and had a case of the warm and fuzzies; that ring represents everything he's done for Elaine's sake, and what Elaine has done for him. Couragous acts. Guidance. Being each other's anchor. Sacrifice. All of these have been demonstrated just in ToMI alone. Isn't accomplishing all that, realistically speaking, much more difficult than a "basic fetch quest"?
Just to be clear, I totally agree that emotions being an intregal part of Voodoo sounds more like revisionist conjecture than legitmately adding to the lore. But then Guybrush didn't get out of being dead by simply wanting to hard enough, IMO.
Edit Sorry Eduardo I didn't see your post. The Voodoo Lady said that a power GREATER than Voodoo would be required to resurrect Guybrush. Love therefore must be a force that is SEPERATE to Voodoo and stronger than it. So emotions are not a crucial part of Voodoo.
Maybe so, but I don't see how that would prevent love from using Voodoo as a conduit in order to complete the spell (just as a purely speculative example, of course). Perhaps "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean hanging the rules when it comes to the minutae. I can see how that would grate in an "Occam's Razor" sort of way, but then this wouldn't be the first time something had to be accomplished in a roundabout way in a Monkey Island game.
Using the power of voodoo is special, everyone can't be guided for it after all. Using the power of love to make voodoo spells more powerful may be the case in this one. I think Voodoo Lady couldn't use the power of love after the disappearance of DeCava, so it's impossible FOR HER to add this in her spells so she may be completely avoided this aspect while talking.
Emotion of believing voodoo or emotion of loving someone is all feelings, and can be used to improve voodoo I believe. You can't ressurrect yourself by only love, that'd mess things up a lil.
I have tried to base my interpretation in as much evidence from ToMI as I can. I respect your opinions on this, but it's difficult to talk about Voodoo as an abstract concept, considering its make believe. I'd rather talk about what the characters in ToMI have said about Voodoo, because that is the only real way of coming to any sort of sensible conclusion.
In terms of your point about Decava - maybe, but I don't see where in ToMI they have hinted at that. After playing through Episode 5, voodoo makes no sense to me, one way or the other - the issue of emotion and resurrection has complicated voodoo, and that isn't something that has been dealt with. My point isn't that I am right and you are wrong - it's that the game is not clear on which theory is correct. So either of us could be right, which is a shame. In any case, I think both theories are ridiculous - because both completely change the nature of Voodoo. I seem to recall the Voodoo lady saying in an earlier game that emotions interfere with Voodoo magic, but I'm not too sure. Can anyone else actually remember what the Voodoo Lady said about voodoo? I seem to recall her going on a rant about it in the second chapter of Curse, but I could be wrong.
To be fair, I'm about to speak from both a conjectural/speculative and a philosophical viewpoint ... but I find it funny that you're only referring to "emotions." I don't think of love that way, at least not singly so. Emotions, like feelings of affection and passion, can change at the drop of a hat. In my eyes, love requires demonstrable action—even when one isn't feeling particularly "loving" at the moment—in order to have real, lasting meaning. So we're not talking about Guybrush bringing himself back to life because he possessed the ring, recognized its significance, and had a case of the warm and fuzzies; that ring represents everything he's done for Elaine's sake, and what Elaine has done for him. Couragous acts. Guidance. Being each other's anchor. Sacrifice. All of these have been demonstrated just in ToMI alone. Isn't accomplishing all that, realistically speaking, much more difficult than a "basic fetch quest"?
Just to be clear, I totally agree that emotions being an intregal part of Voodoo sounds more like revisionist conjecture than legitmately adding to the lore. But then Guybrush didn't get out of being dead by simply wanting to hard enough, IMO.
Maybe so, but I don't see how that would prevent love from using Voodoo as a conduit in order to complete the spell (just as a purely speculative example, of course). Perhaps "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean hanging the rules when it comes to the minutae. I can see how that would grate in an "Occam's Razor" sort of way, but then this wouldn't be the first time something had to be accomplished in a roundabout way in a Monkey Island game.
Sorry for the double post, but I didn't see light_rises post, and this will probably be a long one again. I'm not going to get into a debate on the nature of love, and quite frankly I don't think it should be necessary when the topic of conversation is a video game. You are right - Guybrush didn't just get out of the Crossroads by 'thinking too hard' - but the game SEEMS to suggest that the only force strong enough to resurrect Guybrush is love. I cannot accept that Guybrush was brought back to life by a Voodoo spell when, after possessing the body of a dead bird, the Voodoo Lady explicitly states that no voodoo spell is powerful enough to do so. Now maybe I'm not remembering her line correctly, which is a possibility, but unless you can provide evidence from ToMI that clearly demonstrates love to be an integral part of Voodoo, then I will be forced to conclude that the power of the ring is completely separate to the voodoo spell. Maybe it has something to do with the pirate God - I have no idea. My biggest problem is that the game is not clear, and I would like some form of explanation - preferably in the second season.
Well speaking of a round-about manner, the more we argue the less clear this matter becomes. The ring as a symbol of Elaine and Guybrush's love does make sense, but it also contradicts what the Voodoo Lady said earlier in that chapter. In terms of the 'power' of love using voodoo as a conduit, if 'love' really was a greater and more powerful force than Voodoo, then presumably it would not require Voodoo.
ToMI is most similar to the Curse of Monkey Island for most of it, in my view. The Curse of Monkey Island was a great game, but it was like a cartoon. That's what the ending of ToMI reminds me of. I'm not saying I like this interpretation, but for me it seems the most sensible, based on the fifth episode.
I will say this about Monkey Island, however. There hasn't been a single Monkey Island game that has had a good ending in my view, and in every episode there are always metaphysical concepts that make absolutely no sense, so this could just be part of the Monkey Island tradition.
I'm not sure why love augmenting voodoo can't be considered "a power beyond that of voodoo", like VL said. Guybrush satisfied the recipe of the spell in a more complete and symbolic way than the literal way of just dumping an anchor in the center of the crossroads. It's not revisionist; voodoo spells in monkey island have always been directly proportional to the quality of the ingredients, from Largo's toupee and bra leading to a short-range voodoo doll, to fake, non-fizzy root beer creating the Pox of Lechuck. It's another take on that idea.
I'm as confused as anyone, just trying to back my interpretion up. Well, the possibilities are just too much. I just want to know that there IS a living sense how the ring caused Guybrush come back to life.
I'm not sure why love augmenting voodoo can't be considered "a power beyond that of voodoo", like VL said. Guybrush satisfied the recipe of the spell in a more complete and symbolic way than the literal way of just dumping an anchor in the center of the crossroads. It's not revisionist; voodoo spells in monkey island have always been directly proportional to the quality of the ingredients, from Largo's toupee and bra leading to a short-range voodoo doll, to fake, non-fizzy root beer creating the Pox of Lechuck. It's another take on that idea.
To add to that, love is infinite, and that's why the ring, the symbol of the love between Guybrush and Elaine, didn't disappear after being used for the spell.
I'm as confused as anyone, just trying to back my interpretion up. Well, the possibilities are just too much. I just want to know that there IS a living sense how the ring caused Guybrush come back to life.
Believe me, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think there is a lot of evidence to support my interpretation, but I hate the idea of the power of 'True Love' resurrecting Guybrush. It is way too simple of a solution for a plot that is so complicated. I just hope that the Developers read this thread and threads like it, and decide to actually reveal the truth, because from where I stand nobody has any clue.
It's pretty obvious that the ring represents all four of the ingredients, as well as intense emotional significance. That's all that's needed to tell the story. If you're still confused as to why it happened, then thats simply your problem.
It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.
It's pretty obvious that the ring represents all four of the ingredients, as well as intense emotional significance. That's all that's needed to tell the story. If you're still confused as to why it happened, then thats simply your problem.
It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.
Don't "I know it, you don't, you're bunch of idiots" to me. I know that, most of us know, but the question was "Why couldn't Guybrush use the ring before?". The more you know.
a sacrifice she made to him (giving up a part of her independance)
an anchor for him (he knows he can always trust her – he just wavers a bit when she willingly becomes lechucks demon bride)
a guide for him (his life was pretty aimless until he found her)
encouraging him (when she’s not poxed she tells him she needs him and he is a grat guy)
so the ring, symbolizing this, can be used as a beefed-up crossroads-opener
plus it already is a mighty artifact being able to remove a strong curse (gold statue)
PS: and please stop talking about marriage. marriage is an anachronistic relic of times where you had to bind two strangers together in a bond they won’t break even if they hate each other. then the church tried to change it into a symbol for heterosexual love between two people. why does anyone need it to express any kind of love. the ring cold be a stone or a tree if we were under natives on another caribbean island.
Don't "I know it, you don't, you're bunch of idiots" to me. I know that, most of us know, but the question was "Why couldn't Guybrush use the ring before?". The more you know.
Because he didn't have it with him?
and i wasn't meaning to call you an idiot, so im sorry if thats what it sounded like
It's pretty obvious that the ring represents all four of the ingredients, as well as intense emotional significance. That's all that's needed to tell the story. If you're still confused as to why it happened, then thats simply your problem.
It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.
No it's not 'pretty obvious'. If it was, there wouldn't be multiple threads about this issue. It's not simply 'my' problem - the ending has confused many people.
Why you may ask? Because the ending is vague and they never clearly state ANYTHING. What you just said is an interpretation. Guybrush implies this to be true. The fact still remains that when Guybrush retrieved the voodoo belt buckle, the Voodoo Lady told Guybrush that to resurrect him would require something far more powerful than 'mere' voodoo. That 'something' is love. I have said repeatedly that is how I remember the conversation - I could very well be wrong about it. Until somebody corrects me however, I will continue to use that as my primary argument.
You are right, it is a game - a game that fails to tell a story because it seemingly contradicts itself. In the end, ToMI is like every other Monkey Island game for me - great game, bad ending.
Edit: The argument is not about what the ring represents - it's about the power of the ring. We all know what it represents.
Well if implications isn't good enough for you as proof, then there's really nothing else that can be said. They did explain it in the game to the point that it wasn't just saying: "Oh, this wedding ring works because it represents my marriage which has all four of the spell components. Clever."
Well if implications isn't good enough for you as proof, then there's really nothing else that can be said. They did explain it in the game to the point that it wasn't just saying: "Oh, this wedding ring works because it represents my marriage which has all four of the spell components. Clever."
Maybe I haven't been clear enough. Yes, the ring does represent all four of the spell components. This has led to the theory that the ring completed the Voodoo Spell. This is a valid theory.
It is also true that the Voodoo Lady said that mere voodoo could never resurrect a human being once that human being has given up the last strand of life, and that something more powerful is required. Guybrush did give up his last strand of life and truly died. Therefore, according to the Voodoo Lady, Voodoo could not have brought Guybrush back to life. This is a valid theory.
These two theories co-exist with one another - but they are mutually exclusive. They are contradictory theories that are both supported by evidence from the plot. That is 'my problem', as you derisively called it.
I'm pretty sure that at that point, we're reading way too much into it and we're missing the important point.
Well quite frankly I think they intended for us to read into it. Ron Gilbert apparently had a lot of influence in the fifth episode, and after playing it I don't doubt that rumour - the ending to ToMI is reminiscent of Le Chuck's Revenge, in that nothing is clear (to me at least).
But I'll bite - what do you think the important point is?
It works because it has the voodoo spell ingredients, it works because it's love. You can "interpret" this as much as you want, but it's really kind of foolish. It's using love to accomplish the same thing.
All Guybrush did was, well, what he always does. He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.
"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.
The progress and growth of the characters that we've come to know for so many years (in my case, it's about eight months ago ), as well as the some of the new.
But maybe that's just me.
Edit:Aaaand Rather Dashing once again writes a comprehensive answer that trumps mine. Haha XD
Voodoo spells in monkey island have always been directly proportional to the quality of the ingredients, from Largo's toupee and bra leading to a short-range voodoo doll, to fake, non-fizzy root beer creating the Pox of Lechuck. It's another take on that idea.
He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.
"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.
It works because it has the voodoo spell ingredients, it works because it's love. You can "interpret" this as much as you want, but it's really kind of foolish. It's using love to accomplish the same thing.
All Guybrush did was, well, what he always does. He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.
"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.
This is hardly in-depth interpretation. You are suggesting that this discussion really doesn't matter, which is fair I suppose, but I still think that if they're going to resurrect Guybrush using some mixture of love and voodoo, they should be clearer.
Eh, Guybrush wasn't doing what he normally does - it was literally his only hope. It was a last ditch effort that miraculously payed off. In case it hasn't been obvious, my central criticism is that the significance of the ring only became clear right before it was needed. I think that's sloppy story-telling, but at the end of the day, it is just my opinion.
Heh, 'mechanical'. I'm not expecting a manual. As far as I'm concerned, if they're going to include magic, then it needs to be rational and coherent. If not, then it runs the risk of explaining every mystery. Nothing needs to be explained if it's 'magical'.
Point taken, however - this debate is meaningless, and it has gone on too long, but it has been fun anyway.
Edit: Far too often, magic is used in fantasy books as a deus ex machina. 'voodoo' did it, or 'love' did it is never a good explanation for me - as far as I'm concerned, it's bad story-telling.
Here's your in-depth explanation to why the ring alone worked fine:
It's a freaking game.
Now, even if you need to further explain this because to YOU it doesn't make sense, let me tell you what the "supposed" message is.
Love is all.
Yes, love is all. Love is all, can't you hear the call. Love IS all you need. Love IS all you need at the butterfly ball. Aside from that, it's really not that hard to come up with a link to the four ingredients. Not only is it stupid, it also shows how much you've completely missed the point of the ring.
I mean, hell, when I stood on the crossroad, I immediately knew what I had to do. The wedding ring had to be used at the circle. It was the very first I tried to do. Why? Because love is an anchor, love is a guide, love is courage, love is sacrificing something in his / her name. It really isn't hard to understand, trying to get somebody to explain it to you is like asking somebody to explain the joke to you, a joke everybody else got except for you.
Seriously, it really couldn't have been any clear, and even if it wasn't, just looking at your inventory was enough. I mean, why else did we have this ring since chapter 2? It's basically a Chekhov's gun.
Here's your in-depth explanation to why the ring alone worked fine:
It's a freaking game.
Now, even if you need to further explain this because to YOU it doesn't make sense, let me tell you what the "supposed" message is.
Love is all.
Yes, love is all. Love is all, can't you hear the call. Love IS all you need. Love IS all you need at the butterfly ball. Aside from that, it's really not that hard to come up with a link to the four ingredients. Not only is it stupid, it also shows how much you've completely missed the point of the ring.
I mean, hell, when I stood on the crossroad, I immediately knew what I had to do. The wedding ring had to be used at the circle. It was the very first I tried to do. Why? Because love is an anchor, love is a guide, love is courage, love is sacrificing something in his / her name. It really isn't hard to understand, trying to get somebody to explain it to you is like asking somebody to explain the joke to you, a joke everybody else got except for you.
Seriously, it really couldn't have been any clear, and even if it wasn't, just looking at your inventory was enough. I mean, why else did we have this ring since chapter 2? It's basically a Chekhov's gun.
The conversation was finished, but apparently you just had to resurrect it again. Well I will respond - but unlike you I'll do so politely.
Yes, I realize it is a game. It is a very good game and one that I enjoyed, despite the fact that I disliked the ending. I came onto the forum to discuss the game because there were certain parts of it I did not understand. I got into a debate, and when it became clear that others were becoming frustrated, I decided to stop debating.
I understand that 'Love is all.' I take exception to that, however - it is a deus ex machina. Guybrush is put into a situation that he literally cannot escape, but he does so 'through the power of love.' In my opinion, this is bad storytelling.
It took me all of 10 seconds to complete the quest. I knew exactly what I had to do. I am not complaining because I was stuck - I am complaining because I don't think it is a good puzzle.
Yes, my analysis of ToMI is harsh. I am not nearly this critical while I am playing Sam and Max seasons 1 and 2. This is because these two games are comedies. ToMI started off as a comedy, but halfway through Episode 4, Morgan died - then it became serious. As soon as a story introduces drama into the mix, as far as I am concerned it becomes 'serious' and I treat the story to a higher standard. If ToMI was just intended as comedy, then I wouldn't have cared about the story - but it clearly isn't just supposed to be a funny game. If it was, then Morgan would not have been killed, Guybrush would not have been killed, and there wouldn't be all of this foreshadowing. ToMI was given a much more serious story, and I take 'dramas' more seriously than I do comedies. For example: I would never dream of analyzing the plot of any of the Naked Gun movies, but I would analyze the plot for American History X.
I have been playing adventure games all of my life. As such, I am familiar with the economy of item usage. Every item in your inventory will be used at once, and the more often you have used an item, the less likely you will need to use it. When you compare this simple fact to the goals in front of you, solving an adventure game is rarely difficult. Yet I enjoy playing them anyway. I grew up playing Monkey Island, so I do admit I have an emotional attachment to it.
I hope that I have cleared up any misunderstanding, but if you still want me to explain myself, I can.
Edit: My primary reason for debating is that I like to debate, not that I am incredibly angry and frustrated at Telltale Games.
Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.
In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.
Some occult theories (Crowley's "magick" for example) state that feeling, emotion is the most important part of magic. Ritual is used only to make you direct the emotion and make you belive you're doing something special, something that works.
If, just for the sake of discussion, we take that point of view - it doesn't matter what the ring represents - all that matters is what Guybrush belives the ring represents. And for Feast of the Senses - Guybrush knows it's important, but it's not crucial; and he doesn't feel anything strong about the sponge nor he doesn't do magic with his will-power, only with his strong emotions represented in the ring.
Comments
You can't alter your thoughts that well, you need to have something in your hands to make it change your thoughts. And you know, "thinking about things" is a really risky thing when it comes to make a spell using that power. It's about BOTH the thoughts AND the concrete ingredients. You can't use a voodoo item if you don't believe it.
Love is a feeling you know, a gathering of multiple thoughts.
Wouldn't the Love thing complement the Voodoo spell? Mere Voodoo by itself couldn't resurrect him fully, it needed to be aided by... the power of love (I can't write this without hearing Huey Lewis in my head).
Emotions are not important in voodoo. As I recall, in Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady clearly says that Voodoo does not have the power to bring someone back to life - that a force GREATER than Voodoo was required. Although it has been a few days so I may be misquoting it.
Guybrush had given up his last strand of life to defeat Le Chuck, so he was truly dead. Voodoo no longer had the power to resurrect him. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of his marriage ring. The point of that scene was that the love shared between Guybrush and Elaine is MORE powerful than Voodoo. It's the old cliche that Love Conquers All.
This notion that emotions are an integral part of Voodoo is entirely revisionist. The Voodoo Lady has never stressed that emotions are important in Voodoo at all - she also never tells Guybrush to 'search his feelings' so to speak. In fact, even in the Fifth Episode of ToMI, the game never explicitly states that emotions are a necessary part of Voodoo. If the game does not explicitly state something as fact, then it is mere interpretation - which means Telltale can and probably will change the interpretation to fit whatever story they decide to go with for Season 2.
Edit Sorry Eduardo I didn't see your post. The Voodoo Lady said that a power GREATER than Voodoo would be required to resurrect Guybrush. Love therefore must be a force that is SEPERATE to Voodoo and stronger than it. So emotions are not a crucial part of Voodoo.
Using the power of voodoo is special, everyone can't be guided for it after all. Using the power of love to make voodoo spells more powerful may be the case in this one. I think Voodoo Lady couldn't use the power of love after the disappearance of DeCava, so it's impossible FOR HER to add this in her spells so she may be completely avoided this aspect while talking.
Emotion of believing voodoo or emotion of loving someone is all feelings, and can be used to improve voodoo I believe. You can't ressurrect yourself by only love, that'd mess things up a lil.
To be fair, I'm about to speak from both a conjectural/speculative and a philosophical viewpoint ... but I find it funny that you're only referring to "emotions." I don't think of love that way, at least not singly so. Emotions, like feelings of affection and passion, can change at the drop of a hat. In my eyes, love requires demonstrable action—even when one isn't feeling particularly "loving" at the moment—in order to have real, lasting meaning. So we're not talking about Guybrush bringing himself back to life because he possessed the ring, recognized its significance, and had a case of the warm and fuzzies; that ring represents everything he's done for Elaine's sake, and what Elaine has done for him. Couragous acts. Guidance. Being each other's anchor. Sacrifice. All of these have been demonstrated just in ToMI alone. Isn't accomplishing all that, realistically speaking, much more difficult than a "basic fetch quest"?
Just to be clear, I totally agree that emotions being an intregal part of Voodoo sounds more like revisionist conjecture than legitmately adding to the lore. But then Guybrush didn't get out of being dead by simply wanting to hard enough, IMO.
Maybe so, but I don't see how that would prevent love from using Voodoo as a conduit in order to complete the spell (just as a purely speculative example, of course). Perhaps "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean hanging the rules when it comes to the minutae. I can see how that would grate in an "Occam's Razor" sort of way, but then this wouldn't be the first time something had to be accomplished in a roundabout way in a Monkey Island game.
I have tried to base my interpretation in as much evidence from ToMI as I can. I respect your opinions on this, but it's difficult to talk about Voodoo as an abstract concept, considering its make believe. I'd rather talk about what the characters in ToMI have said about Voodoo, because that is the only real way of coming to any sort of sensible conclusion.
In terms of your point about Decava - maybe, but I don't see where in ToMI they have hinted at that. After playing through Episode 5, voodoo makes no sense to me, one way or the other - the issue of emotion and resurrection has complicated voodoo, and that isn't something that has been dealt with. My point isn't that I am right and you are wrong - it's that the game is not clear on which theory is correct. So either of us could be right, which is a shame. In any case, I think both theories are ridiculous - because both completely change the nature of Voodoo. I seem to recall the Voodoo lady saying in an earlier game that emotions interfere with Voodoo magic, but I'm not too sure. Can anyone else actually remember what the Voodoo Lady said about voodoo? I seem to recall her going on a rant about it in the second chapter of Curse, but I could be wrong.
Sorry for the double post, but I didn't see light_rises post, and this will probably be a long one again. I'm not going to get into a debate on the nature of love, and quite frankly I don't think it should be necessary when the topic of conversation is a video game. You are right - Guybrush didn't just get out of the Crossroads by 'thinking too hard' - but the game SEEMS to suggest that the only force strong enough to resurrect Guybrush is love. I cannot accept that Guybrush was brought back to life by a Voodoo spell when, after possessing the body of a dead bird, the Voodoo Lady explicitly states that no voodoo spell is powerful enough to do so. Now maybe I'm not remembering her line correctly, which is a possibility, but unless you can provide evidence from ToMI that clearly demonstrates love to be an integral part of Voodoo, then I will be forced to conclude that the power of the ring is completely separate to the voodoo spell. Maybe it has something to do with the pirate God - I have no idea. My biggest problem is that the game is not clear, and I would like some form of explanation - preferably in the second season.
Well speaking of a round-about manner, the more we argue the less clear this matter becomes. The ring as a symbol of Elaine and Guybrush's love does make sense, but it also contradicts what the Voodoo Lady said earlier in that chapter. In terms of the 'power' of love using voodoo as a conduit, if 'love' really was a greater and more powerful force than Voodoo, then presumably it would not require Voodoo.
ToMI is most similar to the Curse of Monkey Island for most of it, in my view. The Curse of Monkey Island was a great game, but it was like a cartoon. That's what the ending of ToMI reminds me of. I'm not saying I like this interpretation, but for me it seems the most sensible, based on the fifth episode.
I will say this about Monkey Island, however. There hasn't been a single Monkey Island game that has had a good ending in my view, and in every episode there are always metaphysical concepts that make absolutely no sense, so this could just be part of the Monkey Island tradition.
To add to that, love is infinite, and that's why the ring, the symbol of the love between Guybrush and Elaine, didn't disappear after being used for the spell.
Believe me, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think there is a lot of evidence to support my interpretation, but I hate the idea of the power of 'True Love' resurrecting Guybrush. It is way too simple of a solution for a plot that is so complicated. I just hope that the Developers read this thread and threads like it, and decide to actually reveal the truth, because from where I stand nobody has any clue.
It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.
Don't "I know it, you don't, you're bunch of idiots" to me. I know that, most of us know, but the question was "Why couldn't Guybrush use the ring before?". The more you know.
- a sacrifice she made to him (giving up a part of her independance)
- an anchor for him (he knows he can always trust her – he just wavers a bit when she willingly becomes lechucks demon bride)
- a guide for him (his life was pretty aimless until he found her)
- encouraging him (when she’s not poxed she tells him she needs him and he is a grat guy)
so the ring, symbolizing this, can be used as a beefed-up crossroads-openerplus it already is a mighty artifact being able to remove a strong curse (gold statue)
PS: and please stop talking about marriage. marriage is an anachronistic relic of times where you had to bind two strangers together in a bond they won’t break even if they hate each other. then the church tried to change it into a symbol for heterosexual love between two people. why does anyone need it to express any kind of love. the ring cold be a stone or a tree if we were under natives on another caribbean island.
Because he didn't have it with him?
and i wasn't meaning to call you an idiot, so im sorry if thats what it sounded like
No it's not 'pretty obvious'. If it was, there wouldn't be multiple threads about this issue. It's not simply 'my' problem - the ending has confused many people.
Why you may ask? Because the ending is vague and they never clearly state ANYTHING. What you just said is an interpretation. Guybrush implies this to be true. The fact still remains that when Guybrush retrieved the voodoo belt buckle, the Voodoo Lady told Guybrush that to resurrect him would require something far more powerful than 'mere' voodoo. That 'something' is love. I have said repeatedly that is how I remember the conversation - I could very well be wrong about it. Until somebody corrects me however, I will continue to use that as my primary argument.
You are right, it is a game - a game that fails to tell a story because it seemingly contradicts itself. In the end, ToMI is like every other Monkey Island game for me - great game, bad ending.
Edit: The argument is not about what the ring represents - it's about the power of the ring. We all know what it represents.
Maybe I haven't been clear enough. Yes, the ring does represent all four of the spell components. This has led to the theory that the ring completed the Voodoo Spell. This is a valid theory.
It is also true that the Voodoo Lady said that mere voodoo could never resurrect a human being once that human being has given up the last strand of life, and that something more powerful is required. Guybrush did give up his last strand of life and truly died. Therefore, according to the Voodoo Lady, Voodoo could not have brought Guybrush back to life. This is a valid theory.
These two theories co-exist with one another - but they are mutually exclusive. They are contradictory theories that are both supported by evidence from the plot. That is 'my problem', as you derisively called it.
Well quite frankly I think they intended for us to read into it. Ron Gilbert apparently had a lot of influence in the fifth episode, and after playing it I don't doubt that rumour - the ending to ToMI is reminiscent of Le Chuck's Revenge, in that nothing is clear (to me at least).
But I'll bite - what do you think the important point is?
All Guybrush did was, well, what he always does. He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.
"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.
But maybe that's just me.
Edit:Aaaand Rather Dashing once again writes a comprehensive answer that trumps mine. Haha XD
Yeah I think this is pretty much everything.
This is hardly in-depth interpretation. You are suggesting that this discussion really doesn't matter, which is fair I suppose, but I still think that if they're going to resurrect Guybrush using some mixture of love and voodoo, they should be clearer.
Eh, Guybrush wasn't doing what he normally does - it was literally his only hope. It was a last ditch effort that miraculously payed off. In case it hasn't been obvious, my central criticism is that the significance of the ring only became clear right before it was needed. I think that's sloppy story-telling, but at the end of the day, it is just my opinion.
Heh, 'mechanical'. I'm not expecting a manual. As far as I'm concerned, if they're going to include magic, then it needs to be rational and coherent. If not, then it runs the risk of explaining every mystery. Nothing needs to be explained if it's 'magical'.
Point taken, however - this debate is meaningless, and it has gone on too long, but it has been fun anyway.
Edit: Far too often, magic is used in fantasy books as a deus ex machina. 'voodoo' did it, or 'love' did it is never a good explanation for me - as far as I'm concerned, it's bad story-telling.
Oh fine.
It's a freaking game.
Now, even if you need to further explain this because to YOU it doesn't make sense, let me tell you what the "supposed" message is.
Love is all.
Yes, love is all. Love is all, can't you hear the call. Love IS all you need. Love IS all you need at the butterfly ball. Aside from that, it's really not that hard to come up with a link to the four ingredients. Not only is it stupid, it also shows how much you've completely missed the point of the ring.
I mean, hell, when I stood on the crossroad, I immediately knew what I had to do. The wedding ring had to be used at the circle. It was the very first I tried to do. Why? Because love is an anchor, love is a guide, love is courage, love is sacrificing something in his / her name. It really isn't hard to understand, trying to get somebody to explain it to you is like asking somebody to explain the joke to you, a joke everybody else got except for you.
Seriously, it really couldn't have been any clear, and even if it wasn't, just looking at your inventory was enough. I mean, why else did we have this ring since chapter 2? It's basically a Chekhov's gun.
The conversation was finished, but apparently you just had to resurrect it again. Well I will respond - but unlike you I'll do so politely.
Yes, I realize it is a game. It is a very good game and one that I enjoyed, despite the fact that I disliked the ending. I came onto the forum to discuss the game because there were certain parts of it I did not understand. I got into a debate, and when it became clear that others were becoming frustrated, I decided to stop debating.
I understand that 'Love is all.' I take exception to that, however - it is a deus ex machina. Guybrush is put into a situation that he literally cannot escape, but he does so 'through the power of love.' In my opinion, this is bad storytelling.
It took me all of 10 seconds to complete the quest. I knew exactly what I had to do. I am not complaining because I was stuck - I am complaining because I don't think it is a good puzzle.
Yes, my analysis of ToMI is harsh. I am not nearly this critical while I am playing Sam and Max seasons 1 and 2. This is because these two games are comedies. ToMI started off as a comedy, but halfway through Episode 4, Morgan died - then it became serious. As soon as a story introduces drama into the mix, as far as I am concerned it becomes 'serious' and I treat the story to a higher standard. If ToMI was just intended as comedy, then I wouldn't have cared about the story - but it clearly isn't just supposed to be a funny game. If it was, then Morgan would not have been killed, Guybrush would not have been killed, and there wouldn't be all of this foreshadowing. ToMI was given a much more serious story, and I take 'dramas' more seriously than I do comedies. For example: I would never dream of analyzing the plot of any of the Naked Gun movies, but I would analyze the plot for American History X.
I have been playing adventure games all of my life. As such, I am familiar with the economy of item usage. Every item in your inventory will be used at once, and the more often you have used an item, the less likely you will need to use it. When you compare this simple fact to the goals in front of you, solving an adventure game is rarely difficult. Yet I enjoy playing them anyway. I grew up playing Monkey Island, so I do admit I have an emotional attachment to it.
I hope that I have cleared up any misunderstanding, but if you still want me to explain myself, I can.
Edit: My primary reason for debating is that I like to debate, not that I am incredibly angry and frustrated at Telltale Games.
Some occult theories (Crowley's "magick" for example) state that feeling, emotion is the most important part of magic. Ritual is used only to make you direct the emotion and make you belive you're doing something special, something that works.
If, just for the sake of discussion, we take that point of view - it doesn't matter what the ring represents - all that matters is what Guybrush belives the ring represents. And for Feast of the Senses - Guybrush knows it's important, but it's not crucial; and he doesn't feel anything strong about the sponge nor he doesn't do magic with his will-power, only with his strong emotions represented in the ring.