It doesn't make sense to me for that Star Wars reference in MI2 to be an actual plot twist. Maybe back in the day if Ron had actually made MI3, but not now that there are 5 games in the overall storyline. That sort of reference is usually given for comedic effect, not for actual story development.
I mean, even Spaceballs did it just for laughs, and almost that whole movie is nonsensical.
- "I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."
- "What does that make us?"
- "Absolutely nothing, which is what you are about to become."
First of all, I wasn't really talking about that one reference, but that the whole ending being made with a third game in mind, like how Empire was made with a third movie in mind. The only thing missing, in my eyes, were the words "To Be Continued", and had they put those words up, we probably wouldn't even have this conversation today. Unfortunately, they didn't - probably because they didn't know WHEN they would make the third game.
Second of all, I was just saying that the "I am you brother" line was a referance to a film that was the second in a trilogy, hinting that this game is the second game in a trilogy. Not that the actual line meant anything, or was the plot twist I was talking about. The whole WTF ending was the plot twist. A plot twist that is yet to be explained.
And as you said, the same reference was used in Spaceballs. And you even mention the difference yourself - that movie WAS all nonsensical. MI2 wasn't. Therefore, the reference shouldn't be taken so lightly.
Why then isn't Dave Grossman, who works here at Telltale, considered just as godlike as Ron Gilbert?
Who, exactly, is treating Ron Gilbert as a god? He is no more idolized around here than Roberta Williams would be at a King's Quest-forum, Tim Cain would be at a Fallout-forum or Sid Meier would be at a Civilization forum.
I think it is very natural that the majority of posters on a Monkey Island forum is positive about the possibility of the creator of the very same series joining Telltale. I actually think it is quite odd that nearly 30% of the voters in this poll are either uncertain or against him joining Telltale.
I actually think it is quite odd that nearly 30% of the voters in this poll are either uncertain or against him joining Telltale.
I suppose my uncertainty comes from concern that Ron would pull a George Lucas on the franchise if he made his own MI3, that not only would entirely change the MI universe, but also not be nearly as good as my expectations for the series. Also, my dislike for the ending of MI2 doesn't help me feel better, either.
I might feel better about te whole thing if DeathSpank actually turns out to be good, seeing how the last game I played (or had even heard of before reading this thread) with Ron as a designer was MI2, and that was made 18 years ago.
Chyron, while I do agree with you about all the love for Ron and not for Dave (or Tim for that matter), I feel like I need to point this out:
There is only one name on the cover of each of those games (not counting LeChuck). This is at least one of the reasons why people tend to have a lot more bias for Ron than for Tim or Dave. "A Graphic Adventure by Ron Gilbert" holds a lot of weight.
Yeah, it's as much Ron Gilberts games, as Grim Fandango and Full Throttle are Tim Schafer's games. Yet I don't hear people deny Tim the credit. Day of the Tentacle was a co-operation I think? Which explains why it's one of the best adventure games ever (still not quite MI2 though ).
EDIT: Oops, no Ron didn't work on DOTT, obviously, since he'd left LucasArts by that time. DOTT was marked as "A cartoon game by Tim Schafer and Dave Grossman".
So, let me rewrite that...
If someone is really fully satisfied only with WTF "... What the hell happened here..." endings, then he would feel most satisfied with the ending of MI2. Simple as that.
To me, it has never been "... What the hell happened here..." ending. I always thought it was "all in GB's imagination" ending that still left plenty of room for further development of story in much more intersting (and deeper) way than it was continued in Curse and later which felt more like a children's pirate fairy tale (such as PotC).
Sequels are excellent games in their own way.
Mind you, I'd be less irritated by people calling him the father of adventure gaming than I am by people calling Roberta Williams the mother of adventure gaming, every time I hear that I have to scream into a pillow.
Except Ron Gilbert isn't the father of adventure gaming, Will Crowther is. And Roberta Williams IS the pioneer of graphical adventure games, whether you like it or not, along with her husband Ken. Together they invented graphic adventure games, which eventually led to point-and-click adventure games. So even though one could criticize her game design philosophy (nonsensical puzzles, plain stories, flat characterization, etc.) it's still not wrong to say that Roberta Williams is the mother of adventure gaming. By the time Ron got in the picture, the Williams had been making and publishing adventure games for over half a decade.
Chyron, while I do agree with you about all the love for Ron and not for Dave (or Tim for that matter), I feel like I need to point this out:
There is only one name on the cover of each of those games (not counting LeChuck). This is at least one of the reasons why people tend to have a lot more bias for Ron than for Tim or Dave. "A Graphic Adventure by Ron Gilbert" holds a lot of weight.
...Don't forget that Tim's name is on the cover of every BRÜTAL LEGEND box out there. Also, pretty much everyone who played Psychonauts know that it's a Tim Schafer game too.
Nah man, he's oooold. Bring in some new blood with a fresh outtake. Some really good shit happening right now in the world of multimedia, consumers are way better understood than back in the days. We could get some real tailor-made stuff.
Theory: The ending was nonsense, a joke, and intended to make fun of movies that take themselves too seriously with 800 twists and turns that make no sense and somehow leave people with the feeling that the tripe that they just saw was good simply because the nonsensical plot left them with no ability to predict what was going to happen. The fact that we're even discussing the ending as though it's this deep serious thing at this point probably keeps Ron, Tim, and Dave laughing uncontrollably.
PS: If Ron Gilbert had such a grand scheme for MI3 and cared so much about where the series went, why did he leave the company within a year of MI2's release?
Ron brought Dave Grossman over to Humongous... it would be cool if Dave now brought Ron over to TTG... even if it was just for a game or two... If it happens I hope its during a possible ToMI sequel...
Also, I'd like to apologize if anyone seems to gather that I don't like Ron Gilbert and am opposed to him joining TTG. For the record, I voted "uncertain," not "disagree."
What bothers me is when people suggest that any MI game that is Ron-less is stupid and/or not-canon. I wouldn't be opposed to Ron joining TTG to make a new (post-ToMI timeline) MI game. However, though Ron's input surely would help, I wouldn't say it's required to make an epic MI game. As some in this thread have said, "it's not Ron's baby anymore."
On the other hand, I wouldn't agree with the notion that an alternate-timeline "Ron's MI3" is either necessary nor appropriate at this point in the series' lifespan.
So, I'm just wanting to make it clear that I don't hate Ron. I just get annoyed at Ron-only-MI-game fanboys/girls for bashing anything post-MI2.
So, I'm just wanting to make it clear that I don't hate Ron. I just get annoyed at Ron-only-MI-game fanboys/girls for bashing anything post-MI2.
But I don't think anyone have been like that, which makes me question why somehow assume that. I myself have only said numerous times that I think the two first have that certain something that the others seems to be missing. I also never worshipped Ron Gilbert as some infallable hero - only that I don't have any doubts in him, as I don't see a reason to... yet. What gets me though, is that you (and others of course) are seemingly so blatantly trying to downplay the man, and even suggesting that he's a blatant liar. I don't hear anyone complaining when someone puts Tim Schafer on a pedestal, or Dave Grossman for that matter. But everytime some says they would love to see Ron do another Monkey Island game, someone decides to barge in and say "no, he had his chance and blew it", or other stuff that makes the man seem unimportant or not worthy of any credit.
That's all. I think he deserves the credit, and definately the benefit of the doubt. And I think it's downright disrespectful to call him a liar. Despite this being the internets.
What gets me though, is that you (and others of course) are seemingly so blatantly trying to downplay the man, and even suggesting that he's a blatant liar.
I don't mean to be an ass about Ron. I just don't know why he won't (and hasn't already) come out and said exactly what he had planned for his own take on MI3. It's been 19 years since MI2 was made.
Like I said previously, I consider for him to make it now, in an alternate timeline, to be neither necessary nor appropriate. But why he is so evasive about what the real Secret is and won't lay out his plan of what his MI3 would have been about makes no sense to me other than that maybe he's just playing along. Besides that, I didn't see the end of MI2 as a cliffhanger, but rather as a joke (whether or not I found it funny.)
I don't mean to be an ass about Ron. I just don't know why he won't (and hasn't already) come out and said exactly what he had planned for his own take on MI3. It's been 19 years since MI2 was made.
Like I said previously, I consider for him to make it now, in an alternate timeline, to be neither necessary nor appropriate. But why he is so evasive about what the real Secret is and won't lay out his plan of what his MI3 would have been about makes no sense to me other than that maybe he's just playing along. Besides that, I didn't see the end of MI2 as a cliffhanger, but rather as a joke (whether or not I found it funny.)
He's said himself that the reason he doesn't tell us what the plans for MI3 was, is because he hopes to be able to make another Monkey game that tells us that story someday. He's also promised to tell us (the general Monkey Island fans) the secret be known at some point, but he just doesn't know when. We will learn it eventually, but he'll be keeping it a secret as long as there's even a small chance of him getting to make another Monkey Island game again.
I believe the man. Naive or not, I am of the opinion that one should put some trust in people. You know, innocent until proven guilty and all that. Especially because he's always been very friendly and nice in interviews and seems to be a very likable guy. He's certainly earned enough respect from me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I may be the only one on these forums not convinced that Ron is some sort of magical Adventure Game genie, who poos witte reparte and coughs up rainbows.
He was a big part of a team that produced two games I like very much. He was not part of teams that produced two Monkey Island games I like even better.
I don't know that Ron would integrate well with the existing team or be a particularly big contributor. Do you, general forums public? I'll admit that on paper it sounds like it'd be a great matchup, but I doubt anyone here has any inside knowledge of the situation, or even real game development process, to have much clue. And so the level of clamoring and worship that I see on this board seems unwarranted. It also seems disrespectful to the very talented people that have brought us the last two (discounting EMI, or counting it if you like it) games.
This post isn't directed at anyone in particular. Just general observation. It's just weird to me the kind of legendary status he's achieved and I'm not quite sure why. It reminds me of those posts that talk about "wouldn't it be great if LucasArts made a new MI game", as if that meant anything.
With that said, I hope Telltale continue to attract talented designers - they've done a great job so far. Also done a good job of attracting people willing to work 90+ hours a week, eating TellTale-brand Gruel in the Telltale-brand dungeons.
Back when Monkey Island 1 and 2 were made, they didn't have huge teams on them, and most of these guys had to create these games from scratch, engine and all. Who was it that helped create the SCUMM engine? Ron Gilbert. If you take into account the fact that he did a ton of the programming and writing and creating for Monkey Island 1 alone, not discounting Dave and Tim and the artists, which is quite a large game with great innovative ideas, I can hardly say that what Ron did was some small feat. Give me a break. It takes a damn lot of work to make a game like either Monkey Island 1 or 2 or Maniac Mansion or Zak McKraken, and its a huge insult to Ron's hard work on these games to say that he didn't do something significant. Anyone who says that isn't even trying to think about it.
When it comes to Monkey Island, who is it that the Telltale Team listen to the most when it comes to the overall story. Who did they feel it was important to bring in and talk to about it. Ron Gilbert. Those people at Telltale, like Dave who worked with him years ago, understand and know the work and understand what Ron put into the games and understand what he did to make them happen, and if they didn't, they wouldn't have bothered to bring him in at all. It wasn't "for the fans", it was a conscious decision to ask Ron Gilbert to help, even if it was just for a short time.
Comments
First of all, I wasn't really talking about that one reference, but that the whole ending being made with a third game in mind, like how Empire was made with a third movie in mind. The only thing missing, in my eyes, were the words "To Be Continued", and had they put those words up, we probably wouldn't even have this conversation today. Unfortunately, they didn't - probably because they didn't know WHEN they would make the third game.
Second of all, I was just saying that the "I am you brother" line was a referance to a film that was the second in a trilogy, hinting that this game is the second game in a trilogy. Not that the actual line meant anything, or was the plot twist I was talking about. The whole WTF ending was the plot twist. A plot twist that is yet to be explained.
And as you said, the same reference was used in Spaceballs. And you even mention the difference yourself - that movie WAS all nonsensical. MI2 wasn't. Therefore, the reference shouldn't be taken so lightly.
Who, exactly, is treating Ron Gilbert as a god? He is no more idolized around here than Roberta Williams would be at a King's Quest-forum, Tim Cain would be at a Fallout-forum or Sid Meier would be at a Civilization forum.
I think it is very natural that the majority of posters on a Monkey Island forum is positive about the possibility of the creator of the very same series joining Telltale. I actually think it is quite odd that nearly 30% of the voters in this poll are either uncertain or against him joining Telltale.
I have no clue what you are talking about......
I suppose my uncertainty comes from concern that Ron would pull a George Lucas on the franchise if he made his own MI3, that not only would entirely change the MI universe, but also not be nearly as good as my expectations for the series. Also, my dislike for the ending of MI2 doesn't help me feel better, either.
I might feel better about te whole thing if DeathSpank actually turns out to be good, seeing how the last game I played (or had even heard of before reading this thread) with Ron as a designer was MI2, and that was made 18 years ago.
There is only one name on the cover of each of those games (not counting LeChuck). This is at least one of the reasons why people tend to have a lot more bias for Ron than for Tim or Dave. "A Graphic Adventure by Ron Gilbert" holds a lot of weight.
EDIT: Oops, no Ron didn't work on DOTT, obviously, since he'd left LucasArts by that time. DOTT was marked as "A cartoon game by Tim Schafer and Dave Grossman".
Your P-shopping skills shine again, sir. Nice
To me, it has never been "... What the hell happened here..." ending. I always thought it was "all in GB's imagination" ending that still left plenty of room for further development of story in much more intersting (and deeper) way than it was continued in Curse and later which felt more like a children's pirate fairy tale (such as PotC).
Sequels are excellent games in their own way.
Except Ron Gilbert isn't the father of adventure gaming, Will Crowther is. And Roberta Williams IS the pioneer of graphical adventure games, whether you like it or not, along with her husband Ken. Together they invented graphic adventure games, which eventually led to point-and-click adventure games. So even though one could criticize her game design philosophy (nonsensical puzzles, plain stories, flat characterization, etc.) it's still not wrong to say that Roberta Williams is the mother of adventure gaming. By the time Ron got in the picture, the Williams had been making and publishing adventure games for over half a decade.
...Don't forget that Tim's name is on the cover of every BRÜTAL LEGEND box out there. Also, pretty much everyone who played Psychonauts know that it's a Tim Schafer game too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsogswrH6ck
*Worships the Wondrous Dave Grossman idol of many hands*
"We're not worthy! We're not worthy!"
Sorry, had to be done.
PS: If Ron Gilbert had such a grand scheme for MI3 and cared so much about where the series went, why did he leave the company within a year of MI2's release?
He did? When was that?
Also, I'd like to apologize if anyone seems to gather that I don't like Ron Gilbert and am opposed to him joining TTG. For the record, I voted "uncertain," not "disagree."
What bothers me is when people suggest that any MI game that is Ron-less is stupid and/or not-canon. I wouldn't be opposed to Ron joining TTG to make a new (post-ToMI timeline) MI game. However, though Ron's input surely would help, I wouldn't say it's required to make an epic MI game. As some in this thread have said, "it's not Ron's baby anymore."
On the other hand, I wouldn't agree with the notion that an alternate-timeline "Ron's MI3" is either necessary nor appropriate at this point in the series' lifespan.
So, I'm just wanting to make it clear that I don't hate Ron. I just get annoyed at Ron-only-MI-game fanboys/girls for bashing anything post-MI2.
I think Dave was freelancing at the time and did some work on a couple games for Ron, but I might be mistaken.
But I don't think anyone have been like that, which makes me question why somehow assume that. I myself have only said numerous times that I think the two first have that certain something that the others seems to be missing. I also never worshipped Ron Gilbert as some infallable hero - only that I don't have any doubts in him, as I don't see a reason to... yet. What gets me though, is that you (and others of course) are seemingly so blatantly trying to downplay the man, and even suggesting that he's a blatant liar. I don't hear anyone complaining when someone puts Tim Schafer on a pedestal, or Dave Grossman for that matter. But everytime some says they would love to see Ron do another Monkey Island game, someone decides to barge in and say "no, he had his chance and blew it", or other stuff that makes the man seem unimportant or not worthy of any credit.
That's all. I think he deserves the credit, and definately the benefit of the doubt. And I think it's downright disrespectful to call him a liar. Despite this being the internets.
I don't mean to be an ass about Ron. I just don't know why he won't (and hasn't already) come out and said exactly what he had planned for his own take on MI3. It's been 19 years since MI2 was made.
Like I said previously, I consider for him to make it now, in an alternate timeline, to be neither necessary nor appropriate. But why he is so evasive about what the real Secret is and won't lay out his plan of what his MI3 would have been about makes no sense to me other than that maybe he's just playing along. Besides that, I didn't see the end of MI2 as a cliffhanger, but rather as a joke (whether or not I found it funny.)
He's said himself that the reason he doesn't tell us what the plans for MI3 was, is because he hopes to be able to make another Monkey game that tells us that story someday. He's also promised to tell us (the general Monkey Island fans) the secret be known at some point, but he just doesn't know when. We will learn it eventually, but he'll be keeping it a secret as long as there's even a small chance of him getting to make another Monkey Island game again.
I believe the man. Naive or not, I am of the opinion that one should put some trust in people. You know, innocent until proven guilty and all that. Especially because he's always been very friendly and nice in interviews and seems to be a very likable guy. He's certainly earned enough respect from me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
yes you are right..... He said in an interview TTG is his first salaried job since he left Lucasarts.
I don't want Ron's genius to be brought down by the limitations of the Telltale Tool and the episodic format.
You'd rather it be brought down by unemployment and lack of funding?
Genius? :rolleyes:
Ron invented inventions... and breathing... he is that good.
And the internet. And pants.
Damn you, Gilbert!
This
When it comes to Monkey Island, who is it that the Telltale Team listen to the most when it comes to the overall story. Who did they feel it was important to bring in and talk to about it. Ron Gilbert. Those people at Telltale, like Dave who worked with him years ago, understand and know the work and understand what Ron put into the games and understand what he did to make them happen, and if they didn't, they wouldn't have bothered to bring him in at all. It wasn't "for the fans", it was a conscious decision to ask Ron Gilbert to help, even if it was just for a short time.