I think it's rather unfair to judge how Elaine was acting in MI2, after all, it's not really explained WHY they broke up. You kind of have to use your imagination and just realize that Elaine is pretty pissed about it, hence why she's a bit antagonistic towards him, but still caring about him through all that. For all we know he could have been seeing other girls or cheating on her. (One of the options when trying to sweet-talk her in her room may suggest it... The "those other women meant nothing to me" one, and not to mention naming her DOG after him.) When she realized Guybrush just wanted the map and didn't (in her eyes) truly care about her, it's understandable if it triggered something and she got touchy.
PS. Elaine's characterization in MI2 was my favorite, while Tales was my favorite design.
a) the way I see it, in Secret GB is either 16 or 17, in Revenge he's 19, then 3 months later in Curse he's 20. I'd say now he's 26-30 depending whether the "decade of adventuring" starts with Secret or Escape.
Elaine I always saw as around 4-5 years older than GB.
b) I dislike the way Elaine behaves. I think part of it is the comedy that's always added, and revolves around her being pissed at him, and part of it is they're always separated for plot reasons, so ALL we see is her being pissed at him, which is annoying
c) I found her "being cute" scene more abusive than if she had threatened or hit him, although if it had been a cutscene rather than a dialogue scene where you can say "no" ten times and she still forces you, I would have been okay with it.
I definitely don't see why Elaine would need to appear younger. She's always been the mature one, if anything it's GB who seems younger than he actually his, although he matured a lot since Secret.
I hope Elaine will be around more in the next game, so we can see them in a more "normal" way. Just because she's not yelling at him doesn't mean she has to be all over him, either. GB and Morgan had nice interaction in Tales, I wish there would be more of that kind of thing with Elaine in the next game.
I thought her "being cute" scene was funny. It reminds me of my own wife deliberately over-acting with cuteness to get her way. ("Sweetie, will you please go to QuikTrip and get me some chocolate? Pleeease?" *fake sad face with bottom lip poking out* )
It's not offensive to me at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it, but people complaining that her "cuteness" scene was offensive makes me wonder whether they are either being overly sensitive or maybe searching for things to be offended about.
I don't mean to insult anyone by saying that. I just... I've seen enough TV shows in which people do that, and I've seen my wife do that. It seems normal enough to me to find humor in it.
I realise it's just me. Her being cute is one thing and that in itself wasn't a problem, but the constantly saying no and being forced to do it anyways made me feel worse and worse, and by the time all options had run out I really resented her.
I always thought it was for comedic value. It reminds me of a sitcom sort of gag.
-Will you?
-No.
-Please?
-No.
-Pretty please?
-No.
-Pretty please with a cherry on top?
-No.
-Come on...
-No.
-Aww... please? *fake sad face*
-Well.... No.
-I'll give you a cookie.
-*sigh* Okay, fine. But it better be one awesome cookie.
it's not like Guybrush was mad. I mean, he's not all "I said 'no!' Stop asking me already. -.-"
But can you sit there and not weep at the obvious absence of cookie promised in Spinner Cay? :P
I realise it was for comedic value. I am just saying that the way I personally experienced it, being put in the shoes of someone who can say no over and over again but remains powerless, wasn't funny at all.
I don't think it's worth arguing over, really. You found it funny and I found it creepy. It's about personal feelings, and we can't change them, so it's not like we're going to convince each other.
Guybrush was being really childish. Its like a kid refusing to get a vaccine shot. Or in this situation its more like a kid that's asked to play nice with the new kid.
Meh, Elaine was all "go do this and ask him to do that" and I kept thinking, go yourself, he's not your slave.
It felt closer to someone saying to a man who's in love with her "go get that guy who has always been a jerk to you and tell him I love him and want to marry him". No wonder he didn't want to.
Anyways, my point is just that we tend to only see GB and Elaine interact when there is some kind of problem, which makes her tense, and I don't think it's representative of their whole relationship, so I wish we'd see more of them interacting in a normal way.
I'm not going to even try to make sense of that sentence :P
Whatever you say won't change how I felt when I first played it, and whatever I say won't change how you felt when you first played it. That's all I mean.
Meh, Elaine was all "go do this and ask him to do that" and I kept thinking, go yourself, he's not your slave.
She had a plan and is very assertive about it and Guybrush falls for it. It's not like she was forcing him to. I think it's a silly thing to focus on, especially since Guybrush is doing favors for everyone all the time and we wouldn't be anywhere if he didn't.
It felt closer to someone saying to a man who's in love with her "go get that guy who has always been a jerk to you and tell him I love him and want to marry him". No wonder he didn't want to.
Yeah, through HIS eyes. I'm not sure how you would pick up that Elaine was implying such a thing in any way.
Anyways, my point is just that we tend to only see GB and Elaine interact when there is some kind of problem, which makes her tense, and I don't think it's representative of their whole relationship, so I wish we'd see more of them interacting in a normal way.
I think they did plenty of that in the very beginning and end. I don't think this is so necessary since Guybrush is constantly making implications of how they behave with each other offscreen. The anger and pet names are certainly more entertaining from both sides. That scene in MI2 wouldn't be as funny if there weren't so many hilarious ways to verbally abuse Elaine.
I mean, I've said it before, but this is like that bucket guy from mi2. Or the navigators head. With the navigators head, Guybrush even gives a death threat.
It was a necessary action that needed to be taken and Guybrush was being incredibly selfish and childish. Regular people would have simply called Guybrush out on it and become frustrated and mad at him, but Elaine managed to keep calm and polite while treating him kindly.
She had a plan and is very assertive about it and Guybrush falls for it. It's not like she was forcing him to.
Considering you can say no in at least ten different successive ways and she still makes you do it, I'd say it very much feels to me like she is forcing him to.
I think it's a silly thing to focus on, especially since Guybrush is doing favors for everyone all the time and we wouldn't be anywhere if he didn't.
I wouldn't focus on it nearly so much if people didn't keep asking about it :P And I'd say that a) she's his wife, even if other people keep disrespecting him I'd expect at least her not to do the same and b) I can't think of another time you can beg so much and still not change anything at all. usually it's more along the lines of "I need someone to do this" and GB answering "oh, sure, I'll do it".
Yeah, through HIS eyes. I'm not sure how you would pick up that Elaine was implying such a thing in any way.
I'm not saying she was implying she loved LeChuck if that's what you mean. I was saying that she obviously knows that GB really doesn't want to do it, be it only because he says no so many times, yet she asks him to and keeps insisting in a way that seemed to me like she was dismissing his feelings completely.
I think they did plenty of that in the very beginning and end.
You mean the "hurry up and free me" beginning and "I knew everything all along because I'm better than you" end?
Honestly, it feels to me like it's a problem if it's tucked into cutscenes at the beginning and end, and for the whole story they're separated for one reason or other or unable to interact normally. I don't see why they have to be, and it's starting to feel like the writers are going out of their way to make sure Elaine isn't around for most of the games, or at least not herself or something.
I don't think this is so necessary since Guybrush is constantly making implications of how they behave with each other offscreen.
And the way it is, it remains implications of things we never see, which makes a clear contradiction between what we see and what we're being told. It felt a lot like "oh, let's add a line reminding people that they have sex". I felt weird and didn't feel real to me. At some points it almost felt like GB was lying to the player to pretend that his private life is different from what it really is.
I just want to see it, is all. I'm sick of only seeing Elaine yelling at GB or ordering him around, or saying "I knew it but didn't tell you". I'd want to see them act as normal people. Right now it feels more like a mother-son or master-slave relationship, with added comments as to how when nobody's around they actually behave like a couple.
Some arguing from time to time for comedic purposes, sure, I get it. But when it ends up being the entirety of what we see about them, it just starts to make me wonder why they're together to begin with.
You don't need to have them kiss and call each other pet names all the time. You can have them in the same room though and interacting and stuff. Hey, it works for Sam and Max or Wallace and Gromit for the whole games, I don't see why it couldn't work for at least part of Monkey Island.
Here's something I found. From The Secret of Monkey Island: SE. For the most part, Elaine sounds great. She doesn't sound much older. I don't know if this is due to the sound compression used, voice directing, or just the way she looks (I get the feeling it's all three). However, at one point (3:12), she says "You don't look like one". That delivery is the one that makes her sound older, like an impatient mum. It's okay to be used sparingly, but it isn't.
And I do think that, apart from ironing out those moments, a new character model - at least a new face - would be helpful in getting rid of the 'mum' image. I get she's older; but not by much.
I'm confused, you want to see Elaine being more of a loving wife, but you don't like Guybrush/Elaine? Or do you not like Guybrush/Elaine because of the way she currently behaves?
I definitely don't see why Elaine would need to appear younger. She's always been the mature one, if anything it's GB who seems younger than he actually his, although he matured a lot since Secret.
I hope Elaine will be around more in the next game, so we can see them in a more "normal" way. Just because she's not yelling at him doesn't mean she has to be all over him, either. GB and Morgan had nice interaction in Tales, I wish there would be more of that kind of thing with Elaine in the next game.
Again, I just think there has to be an upper bracket to how older she is. The "romance in the night" thing that got them together would be destroyed if she turned out to be 50 and with him 30. This isn't WoW; it's supposed to be a satire of, and an example of, a love story.
And I don't mean she's got to be one extreme or the other. Elaine is a person, not Griselda or a constantly angry hellion. And we're constantly shown one side, while the other is only talked about.
To me, part of Elaine's charm is that she just had a presence. There was absolutely no need for her to scream about whipping with a cat o' nine tails for her to get silence between Fester Shinetop and Guybrush. She just does, because she's Elaine.
Some arguing from time to time for comedic purposes, sure, I get it. But when it ends up being the entirety of what we see about them, it just starts to make me wonder why they're together to begin with.
You don't need to have them kiss and call each other pet names all the time. You can have them in the same room though and interacting and stuff. Hey, it works for Sam and Max or Wallace and Gromit for the whole games, I don't see why it couldn't work for at least part of Monkey Island.
Precisely. Show me the good sides too! My grandparents, who have been with each other for almost 60 years now, still show more love than those guys, and my grandparents are very conservative in that regard (aka public displays of affection are taboo).
You don't even have to make them kiss at all. Why can't we just make her laugh? A small giggle? That would go over really well. Who doesn't want to make others laugh? Who doesn't want to make the people he loves laugh, especially?
Considering you can say no in at least ten different successive ways and she still makes you do it, I'd say it very much feels to me like she is forcing him to.
That is not what forcing is. She doesn't MAKE you do it, she is begging and he caves in and says yes on his own. She's not saying "go do this or you don't get snuggles for a month" she was all "IF you do this for me I'll give you snuggles." You can also see it as a quid pro quo situation and even then that's not forcing.
I wouldn't focus on it nearly so much if people didn't keep asking about it
I meant you are focusing too much on specifically Elaine asking him to do favors when everyone else pretty much does it to him. It's a game and he's the main character and we have to do things in the game, they just set up Elaine that time to have him do something.
And I'd say that a) she's his wife, even if other people keep disrespecting him I'd expect at least her not to do the same and b) I can't think of another time you can beg so much and still not change anything at all. usually it's more along the lines of "I need someone to do this" and GB answering "oh, sure, I'll do it".
I'm not saying she was implying she loved LeChuck if that's what you mean. I was saying that she obviously knows that GB really doesn't want to do it, be it only because he says no so many times, yet she asks him to and keeps insisting in a way that seemed to me like she was dismissing his feelings completely.
She is his wife and simply asks AND BEGS for a favor, Guybrush acts childish about it. "Waaaah you love him more than me." But hey it's all about Guybrush's feelings, right?
You mean the "hurry up and free me" beginning and "I knew everything all along because I'm better than you" end?
No I mean the "how was your day, oh the usual, do you want me to get anything from the hold, I'M NOT SHOUTING I'M PROJECTING, hey let's demonstrate to the audience how we work as a team, okay, anyway you should get rid of LeChuck by doing this, this and that" beginning, and the "how was your day, oh the usual, hey let's demonstrate to the audience how we work as a team, okay and you can talk to me while I'm fighting these skeleton things and interact with me in various way to see how we usually talk with each other, okay ugh Lechuck's a JERK... Oh Guybrush you're safe by the way I'm a smartass, yeah you are but I love it and you must trust me a lot here's your ring back" ending.
Honestly, if you're going to summarize it like that you are never going to see it.
And the way it is, it remains implications of things we never see, which makes a clear contradiction between what we see and what we're being told. It felt a lot like "oh, let's add a line reminding people that they have sex". I felt weird and didn't feel real to me. At some points it almost felt like GB was lying to the player to pretend that his private life is different from what it really is.
Uh... What, do you want them to SHOW the sex? How is it unbelieveable that a husband and wife have sex offscreen when they are not sorrounded by immitent danger? Oh wait, I guess maybe if that's their turn-on then yeah it would seem weird. "Oh baby, being tied up and having my ship sunk and you disappearing and losing your hand while I was stuck with LeChuck the whole time was so hot so let's bone."
How is it unbelieveable that a husband and wife have sex offscreen when they are not sorrounded by immitent danger? Oh wait, I guess maybe if that's their turn-on then yeah it would seem weird. "Oh baby, being tied up and having my ship sunk and you disappearing and losing your hand while I was stuck with LeChuck the whole time was so hot so let's bone."
*LMAO!* You know, I bet that somewhere out there there's a fanfic that's almost exactly like that...
Also, I don't understand how it's bad for Elaine to beg Guybrush into doing something, but perfectly okay for Guybrush to beg for the necklace of the Navigator and it's fine for him to beg Elaine into speaking to him after they've broken up in LCR, when she obviously doesn't want to talk to him.
She is his wife and simply asks AND BEGS for a favor, Guybrush acts childish about it. "Waaaah you love him more than me." But hey it's all about Guybrush's feelings, right?
Wow, so SHE is the one begging now? And why would she need to? Doesn't she have two legs as well? So if you ask your husband to do something and he's reluctant, the logical thing to do is insist and try to change his mind by making faces? Funny, I would personally go with either "oh, why don't you want to?" or "oh okay, then I'll do it myself".
And yes, it's about Guybrush's feelings because we're playing as Guybrush, therefore we're put in that situation. I've said it before, I wouldn't have cared nearly as much if it had been a cutscene.
Uh... What, do you want them to SHOW the sex? How is it unbelieveable that a husband and wife have sex offscreen when they are not sorrounded by immitent danger?
No, I want to see them in normal situations and not always in the middle of a crisis, then separate, then together again but oops it's a crisis again, and so on.
And what is weird is to have them act one way and have remarks about how they're different. It's two extremes. Like a couple you'd know that you only see yelling at each other, but if you're talking to one of them he or she tells you that they love each other so much and they're all romantic and stuff and thoughtful with each other, and seem to insist on it, and adds "hey by the way, we totally have sex you know". It feels weird.
So I was just discussing this on IRC with a bunch of people...we were thinking that the main problem with Elaine might actually be her voice.
I understand that Alexandra Boyd can't do the soft voice she did from CMI. That's part of growing up.
But maybe sound engineering can help? If you look at her intro in Curse (edit: thanks Rather Dashing for linking to the specific moment), she sounds younger and softer. It adds a lot to her. Notice that she also never shouts "AH HARRRR", but only talks back at LeChuck and makes funny and even sarcastic comments. She has a presence, dammit.
(Plus her younger, none-bone-filled face helps. )
I and probably a few other people would deeply appreciate this issue being addressed. Please, Telltale?
Who knows, maybe Alexandra was even told to make Elaine sound a little older? Anyone thought about comparing her voice in Tales wither her voice in SMI SE? I can't help it but think she sounded younger there, and those lines must have been recorded somewhen close to when she did the lines for Tales.
The voice acting itself is another thing. I also thought that Morgan's performance e.g. was better than Elaine's (and I'm not talking about voice quality now, just voice acting. She always had the right amount of drama in her lines).
Nah. I don't think it's Alexandra Boyd at all. She did a fine job. The character in the game is just more abrasive in general - I don't like her (or most of the pox-infested pirates, actually) as much as in the other games.
It definitely was a nagging, almost hidden problem throughout the series, though.
I may also be just about the only one, but I actually LIKED Guybrush+Elaine's relationship in ToMI. At least the first 3 games.
I don't think I found anything wrong with her voice. But it's not my first language so I relied mostly on subtitles, and it could be subconscious. So I don't know.
I personally don't see why she should have a soft voice. She's a strong woman and a strong voice suits her, I feel. Unless you mean "sounding upset less often", which I guess might help but that's not about the voice but the scripting. If she's upset in the story it's normal for her to sound upset.
I wonder if there were any issues due to the fact that she was recording from another country instead of being right there. Maybe they couldn't tell her exactly what they wanted as a result?
But this is just speculating, and I didn't have a problem with her performance, apart when GB died, when I found both their performances (Elaine and GB) really weak. (Loved both LeChuck's though).
If you're saying "I'm going to do Y for you if you do X", then you're essentially saying that it's not something you'll do normally. It's something that has to be traded, bartered for. That's just not how healthy relationships work.
Now, in a comedic work, I think the small fallacies and petty things that often come up in relationships can be exaggerated for the sake of humor. And honestly, I think the relationship worked. Yes, it's all "referring to things they do off-screen", but I think that's due to Elaine's character. She's a tough, self-made woman, and when she's needed to do something, she's going to take charge and get it done. I think the dialog was meant to tell us that, when some important job didn't need to be done, she settled down more. I think it's more that, well, Guybrush can't QUITE be counted on, and you still have to nudge him into doing something that's necessary in the long run. Maybe it's a character fault of Elaine's, but I think our characters and protagonists should be allowed a fault or two.
If you're saying "I'm going to do Y for you if you do X", then you're essentially saying that it's not something you'll do normally. It's something that has to be traded, bartered for. That's just not how healthy relationships work.
Oh, if it's a different thing in both sentences, of course. In "I'll do Y if you do X" the implication would be that Y is something special, a treat, a surprise or something. In "I won't do Y if you don't do X" the implication would be that Y is normal and the punishment would be taking it away.
But here we're talking about a case where X and Y are the same in both examples. And Y can't at the same time be something special and the status quo.
Therefore the difference there only is in how you phrase it.
"Do your homework and you'll have dessert" or "do your homework or you won't have dessert" are the exact same thing.
Pecan named an example where both were the same thing (sex), saying "it's not like she said "if you don't do it we won't have sex", she said "if you do it we will have sex" which is totally different", and I only commented that no, it's not, it's the exact same thing phrased in a different way.
Not that I think it matters much. We obviously see things in a completely different way. For instance there is this insistence that GB was the one acting in a childish way, when Elaine was using a manipulation trick that's very common in children (trying to look cute and say "pleaaaaase" while batting their eyelashes until the adult sighs and does it reluctantly just to be left alone), so the way I saw it she's the one acting like a little spoiled brat who's used to getting whatever she wants and won't take no for an answer.
Which is why I said I'd rather leave it there. We obviously won't agree on that so what's the point? And it gets me worked up every time.
I'm sorry I even brought it up, I didn't think it would restart the whole "debate".
I'm not sure if you didn't notice that I'm not the same person you've been talking to, or if you misread part of my post. Or I'm misreading your post.
Because I agreed with you, that is, on them being the same thing. I don't think it's that bad for the narrative, though. I think faults can exist and be played upon in comedies. Sure, it's not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, and it's pretty manipulative on her part. But it was in a "comedy sequence", so it can play off an annoying aspect that relationships sometimes take on.
I'm not sure if you didn't notice that I'm not the same person you've been talking to, or if you misread part of my post. Or I'm misreading your post.
Sorry, I was just trying to explain what I meant. I didn't mean to sound confrontational or antagonistic.
I'm not sure if I thought you were agreeing with me or not anymore, to be honest. So, in doubt, I apologise.
But it was in a "comedy sequence", so it can play off an annoying aspect that relationships sometimes take on.
I realise that. And to most people (and, really, possibly everyone but me) it was probably just funny.
I realise all of these are comedic sequences. My point is simply that by having all of these comedic things, it's mis-representing what I believe to be their true relationship. Because if we only see the "bad" parts just because they're funnier, well it's easy to think they're the normal relationship and not just the bad parts. You know?
Sure, have some comedy, these games are supposed to be funny. But just because two people are in a couple doesn't mean you have to focus on either argument jokes or sex jokes. Being a couple is mostly about knowing each other well and being friends, and I think there isn't enough of them just being like that, interacting the way Sam and ax or Wallace and Gromit do. Because married (or long-term relationship) couples I know aren't constantly arguing or kissing.
I'm not sure I've ever seen my parents in law kiss, but they're obviously a couple because they know each other so well, guess each others' feelings and thoughts, have private jokes nobody else gets, give each other knowing glances, finish each other sentences or don't need to finish their own, etc.
I wish there was more of them behaving like two people who have been adventuring for ten years and know each other very well, and happen to be married. Married couple behave like close friends or siblings most of the time, they're not constantly all over each other (in a good or bad way).
In Tales I felt they weren't communicating much, GB was hiding stuff about Morgan for no apparent reason, Elaine wasn't explaining anything to GB and was leaving him in the dark, and most of the time they didn't seem to have much more complicity than they did in the first game when they had just met.
They've been adventuring for ten years! I just couldn't see it. They didn't behave like any married couple I know, in time or crisis or not.
The way I see it, being in a relationship is mostly about the complicity, and wanting to spend your life together. Sex is just something that happens (or not. It's not like asexuals aren't allowed to get married). And arguments might happen but the more time you spend together, the more you know each other and misunderstandings and the like just scream "plot" to me and don't feel like anything that actually happens outside of sitcoms and movies.
That specific scene might seem funny and cute to you, but to me it mostly shows they they don't know how each other works. Elaine doesn't seem to get how repulsive the idea of getting LeChuck and telling him to save the day is to Guybrush, and Guybrush doesn't seem to trust his wife to have a plan. And they don't seem to even try and understand each other, they keep saying "yes" "no" "yes" "no" until one of them yields.
I find it all unrealistic. That is, I can see it happening, but not in a healthy long-term relationship.
Each separate little thing is just a little thing, but I feel there are too many of them in Tales, that's all. Especially when GB had a better relationship with other characters. Winslow, for instance. Or even Morgan, for all that happens between them.
I guess Elaine and Guybrush have always felt to me like "they're a couple because they're a couple". The games have never made me believe in their relationship. I just want the next one to do that more. Stop saying they're married and just show it. There doesn't need to be any focus on that, just like there isn't usually a focus on two characters being friends or related, it just happens to be.
But I'm repeating myself, I am not? Here, I've stated everything I think, I'll try to avoid contributing until I have something new to say. (Yeah, yeah, I know, I've said that before, too. But it's easier said than done!)
I personally don't see why she should have a soft voice. She's a strong woman and a strong voice suits her, I feel.
A...I'm not sure "strong" or "soft" are the right words. Her performance in CMI came reaaallllyyyyy close.
But this is just speculating, and I didn't have a problem with her performance, apart when GB died, when I found both their performances (Elaine and GB) really weak. (Loved both LeChuck's though).
I thought Guybrush was mostly good. Elaine too - her "Guybrush!" was great. But I don't think she nailed the "Go to hell, LeChuck." She delivers it in a slightly older-sounding woman tone that I don't think works.
It's just one of those sad facts that voice actors/actresses get older and inevitably changes have to be made (voice enhancement, and the such) or are replaced.
Incontrovertibly, whether we like it or not, be we die-hard original 2 decade old MI fans or fans that joined just yesterday, charcters are going to have to be voiced by newcomers.
We've already seen this with LeChuck and I'm certain it took a lot of convincing on Telltale's part to bring Earl Boen back to Monkey Island.
Perpetuating LeChuck is relatively easy when keeping on someone like Earl Boen. His voice is craftily and eerily timeless. Well at least zombie/ghost/demon/god pirates are able to remain that way, Alexandra Boyd draws the short straw of age, unfortunate for her Elaine's rate of aging is relative to each installment, often averaging decade spans, so we may (for the die-hard fans) have to cryogenically preserve Alexandra between each new game just to wring that fantastic voice acting out of her.
My point is, though we do love the default voices that have no doubt become a pivotal part of the series, we will have to regrettably look to the future of voice acting and I hope Telltale can find the right people to do that.
I just hope we don't have anymore heady "har - har - har's!!!" from LeChuck again. Forced voice acting, for lack of a better simile, was like a cheese grater scraping against my brain.
Whilst I love Alexandra has anybody considered Charity James (EfMI voice actress)?
I thought she was fabulous, the American accent wasn't off putting at all for me.
Furthermore, character modelling of Elaine definetly needs to be worked on. I'd certainly love it if season 2 could revamp all the characters hairstyles/wardrobes again whilst keeping the actual model.
Personally it was the all too sweet Elaine/sociopathic poxed Elaine that really grated me.
But that's just storyline semantics. I want to see more of the cool, rational, yet coy Elaine in the next season. One that can go into battle but still make a calculated joke fitting of the moment.
The cuddly Elaine did not go well with the stoic Elaine at all. By this I mean Elaine seemed inappropriately nice in Chapter One when she's tied up and sweetly ordering Guybrush what to do. She may as well have finished her sentence with "Sweety" or "don't pick up that dear you'll get a splinter", which reiterates what another person said earlier, that Elaine became more of a grandma/cougar rather than a reserved swashbuckler.
Elaine was particularly inept in my opinion when she and human LeChuck were aboard his ship (Can't remember the chapter), and at that moment she seems totally hopeless and totally open to human LeChuck's suave. I had to slap myself at that moment and ask whether that was intentional or sarcastic of the character to open herself to LeChuck rather than be the natural leader.
Okay now some more lovely segue...
Subsequent to the writing of the character/voice-over is my point on character modelling (I told you it was lovely segue). Those darn lollipop hair bangs or whatever you want to deem them just gave Elaine, in my opinion, too much cuteness - without going so far as transforming her entirely into an anime character.
CUT THEM OFF, for the love of something besides God, jsut cut them off. They were so irritating it just made her whole head satirical and overtly not piratey. And to avoid flamers who say I'm infatuated with Elaine's SOMI incarnation, I did not in fact get introduced to MI until Curse. But on that point the SOMI artwork for Elaine was impeccable. And while I don't give a toss about those other threads that argue TOMI is too "cartoony" and somehow the 1990/1991 games were closer to reality, relatively speaking. I do think a more natural hair style, or perhaps less (hair) bangs for our buck couldn't go astray?
Anyway enough of rambling.
Just fix Elaine's hair.
And fix her voice or writing. Something's iffy there...
a) the way I see it, in Secret GB is either 16 or 17, in Revenge he's 19, then 3 months later in Curse he's 20. I'd say now he's 26-30 depending whether the "decade of adventuring" starts with Secret or Escape.
Elaine I always saw as around 4-5 years older than GB.
Isn't Guybrush 21 years old in LeChucks Revenge? At least that's what he said to the librarian.
Comments
PS. Elaine's characterization in MI2 was my favorite, while Tales was my favorite design.
a) the way I see it, in Secret GB is either 16 or 17, in Revenge he's 19, then 3 months later in Curse he's 20. I'd say now he's 26-30 depending whether the "decade of adventuring" starts with Secret or Escape.
Elaine I always saw as around 4-5 years older than GB.
b) I dislike the way Elaine behaves. I think part of it is the comedy that's always added, and revolves around her being pissed at him, and part of it is they're always separated for plot reasons, so ALL we see is her being pissed at him, which is annoying
c) I found her "being cute" scene more abusive than if she had threatened or hit him, although if it had been a cutscene rather than a dialogue scene where you can say "no" ten times and she still forces you, I would have been okay with it.
I definitely don't see why Elaine would need to appear younger. She's always been the mature one, if anything it's GB who seems younger than he actually his, although he matured a lot since Secret.
I hope Elaine will be around more in the next game, so we can see them in a more "normal" way. Just because she's not yelling at him doesn't mean she has to be all over him, either. GB and Morgan had nice interaction in Tales, I wish there would be more of that kind of thing with Elaine in the next game.
It's not offensive to me at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it, but people complaining that her "cuteness" scene was offensive makes me wonder whether they are either being overly sensitive or maybe searching for things to be offended about.
I don't mean to insult anyone by saying that. I just... I've seen enough TV shows in which people do that, and I've seen my wife do that. It seems normal enough to me to find humor in it.
-Will you?
-No.
-Please?
-No.
-Pretty please?
-No.
-Pretty please with a cherry on top?
-No.
-Come on...
-No.
-Aww... please? *fake sad face*
-Well.... No.
-I'll give you a cookie.
-*sigh* Okay, fine. But it better be one awesome cookie.
it's not like Guybrush was mad. I mean, he's not all "I said 'no!' Stop asking me already. -.-"
I realise it was for comedic value. I am just saying that the way I personally experienced it, being put in the shoes of someone who can say no over and over again but remains powerless, wasn't funny at all.
I don't think it's worth arguing over, really. You found it funny and I found it creepy. It's about personal feelings, and we can't change them, so it's not like we're going to convince each other.
It felt closer to someone saying to a man who's in love with her "go get that guy who has always been a jerk to you and tell him I love him and want to marry him". No wonder he didn't want to.
Anyways, my point is just that we tend to only see GB and Elaine interact when there is some kind of problem, which makes her tense, and I don't think it's representative of their whole relationship, so I wish we'd see more of them interacting in a normal way.
Well, I can't be convinced that you can't convinced that we can't convince each other.
Or at all. I agree.
...wait! I'm not convinced of that.
Whatever you say won't change how I felt when I first played it, and whatever I say won't change how you felt when you first played it. That's all I mean.
A failed joke, apparently, but a joke nonetheless.
She had a plan and is very assertive about it and Guybrush falls for it. It's not like she was forcing him to. I think it's a silly thing to focus on, especially since Guybrush is doing favors for everyone all the time and we wouldn't be anywhere if he didn't.
Yeah, through HIS eyes. I'm not sure how you would pick up that Elaine was implying such a thing in any way.
I think they did plenty of that in the very beginning and end. I don't think this is so necessary since Guybrush is constantly making implications of how they behave with each other offscreen. The anger and pet names are certainly more entertaining from both sides. That scene in MI2 wouldn't be as funny if there weren't so many hilarious ways to verbally abuse Elaine.
It was a necessary action that needed to be taken and Guybrush was being incredibly selfish and childish. Regular people would have simply called Guybrush out on it and become frustrated and mad at him, but Elaine managed to keep calm and polite while treating him kindly.
Considering you can say no in at least ten different successive ways and she still makes you do it, I'd say it very much feels to me like she is forcing him to.
I wouldn't focus on it nearly so much if people didn't keep asking about it :P And I'd say that a) she's his wife, even if other people keep disrespecting him I'd expect at least her not to do the same and b) I can't think of another time you can beg so much and still not change anything at all. usually it's more along the lines of "I need someone to do this" and GB answering "oh, sure, I'll do it".
I'm not saying she was implying she loved LeChuck if that's what you mean. I was saying that she obviously knows that GB really doesn't want to do it, be it only because he says no so many times, yet she asks him to and keeps insisting in a way that seemed to me like she was dismissing his feelings completely.
You mean the "hurry up and free me" beginning and "I knew everything all along because I'm better than you" end?
Honestly, it feels to me like it's a problem if it's tucked into cutscenes at the beginning and end, and for the whole story they're separated for one reason or other or unable to interact normally. I don't see why they have to be, and it's starting to feel like the writers are going out of their way to make sure Elaine isn't around for most of the games, or at least not herself or something.
And the way it is, it remains implications of things we never see, which makes a clear contradiction between what we see and what we're being told. It felt a lot like "oh, let's add a line reminding people that they have sex". I felt weird and didn't feel real to me. At some points it almost felt like GB was lying to the player to pretend that his private life is different from what it really is.
I just want to see it, is all. I'm sick of only seeing Elaine yelling at GB or ordering him around, or saying "I knew it but didn't tell you". I'd want to see them act as normal people. Right now it feels more like a mother-son or master-slave relationship, with added comments as to how when nobody's around they actually behave like a couple.
Some arguing from time to time for comedic purposes, sure, I get it. But when it ends up being the entirety of what we see about them, it just starts to make me wonder why they're together to begin with.
You don't need to have them kiss and call each other pet names all the time. You can have them in the same room though and interacting and stuff. Hey, it works for Sam and Max or Wallace and Gromit for the whole games, I don't see why it couldn't work for at least part of Monkey Island.
And I do think that, apart from ironing out those moments, a new character model - at least a new face - would be helpful in getting rid of the 'mum' image. I get she's older; but not by much.
Oh man, I meant a Guybrush/MORGAN shipper. Sorry.
Again, I just think there has to be an upper bracket to how older she is. The "romance in the night" thing that got them together would be destroyed if she turned out to be 50 and with him 30. This isn't WoW; it's supposed to be a satire of, and an example of, a love story.
And I don't mean she's got to be one extreme or the other. Elaine is a person, not Griselda or a constantly angry hellion. And we're constantly shown one side, while the other is only talked about.
To me, part of Elaine's charm is that she just had a presence. There was absolutely no need for her to scream about whipping with a cat o' nine tails for her to get silence between Fester Shinetop and Guybrush. She just does, because she's Elaine.
Precisely. Show me the good sides too! My grandparents, who have been with each other for almost 60 years now, still show more love than those guys, and my grandparents are very conservative in that regard (aka public displays of affection are taboo).
You don't even have to make them kiss at all. Why can't we just make her laugh? A small giggle? That would go over really well. Who doesn't want to make others laugh? Who doesn't want to make the people he loves laugh, especially?
He wasn't powerless, man. She promised him nookie. That's the clincher for many males.
That is not what forcing is. She doesn't MAKE you do it, she is begging and he caves in and says yes on his own. She's not saying "go do this or you don't get snuggles for a month" she was all "IF you do this for me I'll give you snuggles." You can also see it as a quid pro quo situation and even then that's not forcing.
I meant you are focusing too much on specifically Elaine asking him to do favors when everyone else pretty much does it to him. It's a game and he's the main character and we have to do things in the game, they just set up Elaine that time to have him do something.
She is his wife and simply asks AND BEGS for a favor, Guybrush acts childish about it. "Waaaah you love him more than me." But hey it's all about Guybrush's feelings, right?
No I mean the "how was your day, oh the usual, do you want me to get anything from the hold, I'M NOT SHOUTING I'M PROJECTING, hey let's demonstrate to the audience how we work as a team, okay, anyway you should get rid of LeChuck by doing this, this and that" beginning, and the "how was your day, oh the usual, hey let's demonstrate to the audience how we work as a team, okay and you can talk to me while I'm fighting these skeleton things and interact with me in various way to see how we usually talk with each other, okay ugh Lechuck's a JERK... Oh Guybrush you're safe by the way I'm a smartass, yeah you are but I love it and you must trust me a lot here's your ring back" ending.
Honestly, if you're going to summarize it like that you are never going to see it.
Uh... What, do you want them to SHOW the sex? How is it unbelieveable that a husband and wife have sex offscreen when they are not sorrounded by immitent danger? Oh wait, I guess maybe if that's their turn-on then yeah it would seem weird. "Oh baby, being tied up and having my ship sunk and you disappearing and losing your hand while I was stuck with LeChuck the whole time was so hot so let's bone."
*LMAO!* You know, I bet that somewhere out there there's a fanfic that's almost exactly like that...
Also, I don't understand how it's bad for Elaine to beg Guybrush into doing something, but perfectly okay for Guybrush to beg for the necklace of the Navigator and it's fine for him to beg Elaine into speaking to him after they've broken up in LCR, when she obviously doesn't want to talk to him.
I've got a scoop for you: that's the same thing.
But I saw it more like "if you don't do it, I'll cry" kind of things.
Wow, so SHE is the one begging now? And why would she need to? Doesn't she have two legs as well? So if you ask your husband to do something and he's reluctant, the logical thing to do is insist and try to change his mind by making faces? Funny, I would personally go with either "oh, why don't you want to?" or "oh okay, then I'll do it myself".
And yes, it's about Guybrush's feelings because we're playing as Guybrush, therefore we're put in that situation. I've said it before, I wouldn't have cared nearly as much if it had been a cutscene.
No, I want to see them in normal situations and not always in the middle of a crisis, then separate, then together again but oops it's a crisis again, and so on.
And what is weird is to have them act one way and have remarks about how they're different. It's two extremes. Like a couple you'd know that you only see yelling at each other, but if you're talking to one of them he or she tells you that they love each other so much and they're all romantic and stuff and thoughtful with each other, and seem to insist on it, and adds "hey by the way, we totally have sex you know". It feels weird.
I understand that Alexandra Boyd can't do the soft voice she did from CMI. That's part of growing up.
But maybe sound engineering can help? If you look at her intro in Curse (edit: thanks Rather Dashing for linking to the specific moment), she sounds younger and softer. It adds a lot to her. Notice that she also never shouts "AH HARRRR", but only talks back at LeChuck and makes funny and even sarcastic comments. She has a presence, dammit.
(Plus her younger, none-bone-filled face helps.
I and probably a few other people would deeply appreciate this issue being addressed. Please, Telltale?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IBUfXq0nbk#t=5m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydb5Bidi8sM#t=3.3m
The voice acting itself is another thing. I also thought that Morgan's performance e.g. was better than Elaine's (and I'm not talking about voice quality now, just voice acting. She always had the right amount of drama in her lines).
Just kidding I know it was a different actress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqsyrTg4Zyk&feature=related
It definitely was a nagging, almost hidden problem throughout the series, though.
I may also be just about the only one, but I actually LIKED Guybrush+Elaine's relationship in ToMI. At least the first 3 games.
I personally don't see why she should have a soft voice. She's a strong woman and a strong voice suits her, I feel. Unless you mean "sounding upset less often", which I guess might help but that's not about the voice but the scripting. If she's upset in the story it's normal for her to sound upset.
I wonder if there were any issues due to the fact that she was recording from another country instead of being right there. Maybe they couldn't tell her exactly what they wanted as a result?
But this is just speculating, and I didn't have a problem with her performance, apart when GB died, when I found both their performances (Elaine and GB) really weak. (Loved both LeChuck's though).
Nope.
No, it's not.
Honestly, the only difference I can see between "do X and I'll do Y" and "do X or I won't do Y" is that one is honest about it being blackmail.
But I don't want to talk about that anymore. It's frustrating and we're going nowhere.
If you're saying "I'm going to do Y for you if you do X", then you're essentially saying that it's not something you'll do normally. It's something that has to be traded, bartered for. That's just not how healthy relationships work.
Now, in a comedic work, I think the small fallacies and petty things that often come up in relationships can be exaggerated for the sake of humor. And honestly, I think the relationship worked. Yes, it's all "referring to things they do off-screen", but I think that's due to Elaine's character. She's a tough, self-made woman, and when she's needed to do something, she's going to take charge and get it done. I think the dialog was meant to tell us that, when some important job didn't need to be done, she settled down more. I think it's more that, well, Guybrush can't QUITE be counted on, and you still have to nudge him into doing something that's necessary in the long run. Maybe it's a character fault of Elaine's, but I think our characters and protagonists should be allowed a fault or two.
Oh, if it's a different thing in both sentences, of course. In "I'll do Y if you do X" the implication would be that Y is something special, a treat, a surprise or something. In "I won't do Y if you don't do X" the implication would be that Y is normal and the punishment would be taking it away.
But here we're talking about a case where X and Y are the same in both examples. And Y can't at the same time be something special and the status quo.
Therefore the difference there only is in how you phrase it.
"Do your homework and you'll have dessert" or "do your homework or you won't have dessert" are the exact same thing.
Pecan named an example where both were the same thing (sex), saying "it's not like she said "if you don't do it we won't have sex", she said "if you do it we will have sex" which is totally different", and I only commented that no, it's not, it's the exact same thing phrased in a different way.
Not that I think it matters much. We obviously see things in a completely different way. For instance there is this insistence that GB was the one acting in a childish way, when Elaine was using a manipulation trick that's very common in children (trying to look cute and say "pleaaaaase" while batting their eyelashes until the adult sighs and does it reluctantly just to be left alone), so the way I saw it she's the one acting like a little spoiled brat who's used to getting whatever she wants and won't take no for an answer.
Which is why I said I'd rather leave it there. We obviously won't agree on that so what's the point? And it gets me worked up every time.
I'm sorry I even brought it up, I didn't think it would restart the whole "debate".
I'm not sure if you didn't notice that I'm not the same person you've been talking to, or if you misread part of my post. Or I'm misreading your post.
Because I agreed with you, that is, on them being the same thing. I don't think it's that bad for the narrative, though. I think faults can exist and be played upon in comedies. Sure, it's not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, and it's pretty manipulative on her part. But it was in a "comedy sequence", so it can play off an annoying aspect that relationships sometimes take on.
Sorry, I was just trying to explain what I meant. I didn't mean to sound confrontational or antagonistic.
I'm not sure if I thought you were agreeing with me or not anymore, to be honest. So, in doubt, I apologise.
I realise that. And to most people (and, really, possibly everyone but me) it was probably just funny.
I realise all of these are comedic sequences. My point is simply that by having all of these comedic things, it's mis-representing what I believe to be their true relationship. Because if we only see the "bad" parts just because they're funnier, well it's easy to think they're the normal relationship and not just the bad parts. You know?
Sure, have some comedy, these games are supposed to be funny. But just because two people are in a couple doesn't mean you have to focus on either argument jokes or sex jokes. Being a couple is mostly about knowing each other well and being friends, and I think there isn't enough of them just being like that, interacting the way Sam and ax or Wallace and Gromit do. Because married (or long-term relationship) couples I know aren't constantly arguing or kissing.
I'm not sure I've ever seen my parents in law kiss, but they're obviously a couple because they know each other so well, guess each others' feelings and thoughts, have private jokes nobody else gets, give each other knowing glances, finish each other sentences or don't need to finish their own, etc.
I wish there was more of them behaving like two people who have been adventuring for ten years and know each other very well, and happen to be married. Married couple behave like close friends or siblings most of the time, they're not constantly all over each other (in a good or bad way).
In Tales I felt they weren't communicating much, GB was hiding stuff about Morgan for no apparent reason, Elaine wasn't explaining anything to GB and was leaving him in the dark, and most of the time they didn't seem to have much more complicity than they did in the first game when they had just met.
They've been adventuring for ten years! I just couldn't see it. They didn't behave like any married couple I know, in time or crisis or not.
The way I see it, being in a relationship is mostly about the complicity, and wanting to spend your life together. Sex is just something that happens (or not. It's not like asexuals aren't allowed to get married). And arguments might happen but the more time you spend together, the more you know each other and misunderstandings and the like just scream "plot" to me and don't feel like anything that actually happens outside of sitcoms and movies.
That specific scene might seem funny and cute to you, but to me it mostly shows they they don't know how each other works. Elaine doesn't seem to get how repulsive the idea of getting LeChuck and telling him to save the day is to Guybrush, and Guybrush doesn't seem to trust his wife to have a plan. And they don't seem to even try and understand each other, they keep saying "yes" "no" "yes" "no" until one of them yields.
I find it all unrealistic. That is, I can see it happening, but not in a healthy long-term relationship.
Each separate little thing is just a little thing, but I feel there are too many of them in Tales, that's all. Especially when GB had a better relationship with other characters. Winslow, for instance. Or even Morgan, for all that happens between them.
I guess Elaine and Guybrush have always felt to me like "they're a couple because they're a couple". The games have never made me believe in their relationship. I just want the next one to do that more. Stop saying they're married and just show it. There doesn't need to be any focus on that, just like there isn't usually a focus on two characters being friends or related, it just happens to be.
But I'm repeating myself, I am not?
A...I'm not sure "strong" or "soft" are the right words. Her performance in CMI came reaaallllyyyyy close.
I thought Guybrush was mostly good. Elaine too - her "Guybrush!" was great. But I don't think she nailed the "Go to hell, LeChuck." She delivers it in a slightly older-sounding woman tone that I don't think works.
Incontrovertibly, whether we like it or not, be we die-hard original 2 decade old MI fans or fans that joined just yesterday, charcters are going to have to be voiced by newcomers.
We've already seen this with LeChuck and I'm certain it took a lot of convincing on Telltale's part to bring Earl Boen back to Monkey Island.
Perpetuating LeChuck is relatively easy when keeping on someone like Earl Boen. His voice is craftily and eerily timeless. Well at least zombie/ghost/demon/god pirates are able to remain that way, Alexandra Boyd draws the short straw of age, unfortunate for her Elaine's rate of aging is relative to each installment, often averaging decade spans, so we may (for the die-hard fans) have to cryogenically preserve Alexandra between each new game just to wring that fantastic voice acting out of her.
My point is, though we do love the default voices that have no doubt become a pivotal part of the series, we will have to regrettably look to the future of voice acting and I hope Telltale can find the right people to do that.
I just hope we don't have anymore heady "har - har - har's!!!" from LeChuck again. Forced voice acting, for lack of a better simile, was like a cheese grater scraping against my brain.
Whilst I love Alexandra has anybody considered Charity James (EfMI voice actress)?
I thought she was fabulous, the American accent wasn't off putting at all for me.
Furthermore, character modelling of Elaine definetly needs to be worked on. I'd certainly love it if season 2 could revamp all the characters hairstyles/wardrobes again whilst keeping the actual model.
Personally it was the all too sweet Elaine/sociopathic poxed Elaine that really grated me.
But that's just storyline semantics. I want to see more of the cool, rational, yet coy Elaine in the next season. One that can go into battle but still make a calculated joke fitting of the moment.
The cuddly Elaine did not go well with the stoic Elaine at all. By this I mean Elaine seemed inappropriately nice in Chapter One when she's tied up and sweetly ordering Guybrush what to do. She may as well have finished her sentence with "Sweety" or "don't pick up that dear you'll get a splinter", which reiterates what another person said earlier, that Elaine became more of a grandma/cougar rather than a reserved swashbuckler.
Elaine was particularly inept in my opinion when she and human LeChuck were aboard his ship (Can't remember the chapter), and at that moment she seems totally hopeless and totally open to human LeChuck's suave. I had to slap myself at that moment and ask whether that was intentional or sarcastic of the character to open herself to LeChuck rather than be the natural leader.
Okay now some more lovely segue...
Subsequent to the writing of the character/voice-over is my point on character modelling (I told you it was lovely segue). Those darn lollipop hair bangs or whatever you want to deem them just gave Elaine, in my opinion, too much cuteness - without going so far as transforming her entirely into an anime character.
CUT THEM OFF, for the love of something besides God, jsut cut them off. They were so irritating it just made her whole head satirical and overtly not piratey. And to avoid flamers who say I'm infatuated with Elaine's SOMI incarnation, I did not in fact get introduced to MI until Curse. But on that point the SOMI artwork for Elaine was impeccable. And while I don't give a toss about those other threads that argue TOMI is too "cartoony" and somehow the 1990/1991 games were closer to reality, relatively speaking. I do think a more natural hair style, or perhaps less (hair) bangs for our buck couldn't go astray?
Anyway enough of rambling.
Just fix Elaine's hair.
And fix her voice or writing. Something's iffy there...
Isn't Guybrush 21 years old in LeChucks Revenge? At least that's what he said to the librarian.
he was clearly lieing then he said it
He says he's "ninet... I mean twenty-one", and in Curse his ID says he's 20.
no but he used it as an ID for grog and you do need to be 21 for that I think