Anyone else out there not find the designs in curse appealing?
The thing about CMI was that it was a huge change, but I consider it to be a beautifully executed game nonetheless. The character designs were more humorous and very different. All of a sudden Guybrush was more cartoon-like. Less was left to the imagination (that a few pixels can allow).
I was much more concerned with the personalities of the characters changing then the way they were drawn. Even though Guybrush has evolved as a character, he is still the same Guybrush I always expect. Elaine, however changed drastically, in my opinion.
Elaine was the responsible one, independent, a little introverted, but she cared about people, and was loved by everyone in the Caribbean. She was a strong and respected leader among lazy but brutal pirates. And then something changed in CMI, Elaine lost something vital to her character. She started acting whiny and petty. Sure she was always a little hot tempered, and looked upon Guybrush with amusement, but in a good way. She was never truly patronizing until CMI onward. She had a noble quality in the first two games that I haven't seen since. It could just be my own thoughts that I brought to the character when I first played, but I feel like she has lost her identity lately.
I understand that having comedy in Guybrush and Elaine's dialogue is very important and should be there, but there is just something missing in Elaine. I don't know how to explain it. Maybe she just needs some more scenes to round out her current personality.
Edit: I can still see this Guybrush within all the forms he has taken, but this Elaine is just not in there anymore.
Can I ask: how is Elaine patronizing in CMI? She gets upset with him when he proposes to her with a cursed wedding ring - as I imagine any girl I know would - and punches his lights out later, but she's a little surprised about where she is and seems comforted to see him. Outside of her relationship with Guybrush, she tells LeChuck she can't be his bride because she's washing her hair tonight, she shoots the pirate's sword off just before he's about to stab Guybrush, and at the end of the game escapes and saves some people by diverting controls.
I think what I miss most about Elaine is her presence; she never really needed to scream pirate at those guys on Spinner Cay, or at least wouldn't have back in SMI. That was definitely lost, her redeeming moments in TMI04 and 05 regardless. I'd be interested in seeing it return.
I agree with Krom completely. I disliked alot the way TTG designed Elaine's character model. First of all her model doesn't come accross as an attractive chick in TOMI. Whereas in SOMI she comes accross as an independent, leadership quality type of girl, with a cute side and smart way of handling things like Lechuck's hostage situation and the whole town being in love with her. SOMI and Revenge portrayed her as an independent woman, self efficient and also attractive character with an interesting history.
Her character model in those games was really attractive, and you could tell Guybrush really has a nice taste in chicks. In the rest of the games things change a lil bit. I could accept Curse portrayal of Elaine (maybe im biased just because of how good the game was), but i also think Elaine started to be so freakingly abusive in Curse, Escape and TOMI. She is so bossy in the last 2 games there comes a time you wish she could shut the hell up. I think TTG has to study a little bit Elaine's character and reach a healthy balance because for me Elaine's character was destroyed in TOMI.
If TTG can make a sexy character model of Morgan, why are they struggling making a nice looking Elaine? Elaine has gone since the first edition of SOMI from a good looking girlfriend of Guybrush that made u proud to be playing a pirate with a nice taste, to a girl resembling a blood elf, without the pointy ears.
Even Guybrush was struggling to like her. Theres something off of it that makes her not be the same Elaine that we all fell in love when we first got introduced to her. Whats worst, this is the age where graphics are not done with pixels, but where you literally have so many tools to make everything pretty. Elaine's not looking pretty and when you compare Elaine's portrayal with Morgan's character you couldn't help but feel simpathy with Morgan and hate Elaine. There comes a point where Morgan overshadows Elaine, and instead of rooting for Elaine you start to root for Morgan. For example the swordfight!
I believe Elaine's charcter the next time should be carefully constructed and reevaluated so that next time we feel comfortable in Guybrush decision staying with Elaines. In the end it sounded sad to think Guybrush stayed with an alltime anoying Elaine, than with always a good and bearable kick ass Morgan. This is something that shouldnt happen again, in order to not continue the decadent descent each newly released game has started with Elaine.
Didn't fine ToMI Elaine ugly. She doesn't have the cute face Morgan has, or Morgan's shapes, but I never saw Elaine as someone who was sexy due to her shapes. It's her presence. How she just says something and people obey out of respect, both because she's the governor and because they trust her judgement.
I guess that's lost now that she isn't anymore, though.
I agree that she never seemed to raise her voice in the first two games, but maybe that's because there were no voices? Still, while she seemed to know what she wanted, she didn't seem to lose her temper then. Later on she seems quick to lose her temper, less collected, more violent. I'm not sure why. But in a way it makes her seem more human, she has obvious flaws now, when we first meet her she's like that perfect woman who falls in love with the young, inexperienced, goofy hero for no reason at all after seeing him for two seconds.
Woah, guys. Listen. I do not mean that Elaine must be sexy or attractive. I have nothing whatsoever against unattractive women. Even ignoring that she's just a bunch of pixels/polygons, that's not what I meant at all. My problem with her current design is that it doesn't imply her presence. To put it in another way, if you're trying to seem cool you first try and look cool. If you want to have a presence, you look that way. And current Elaine, apart from her angry yelling, isn't really trying - and the look isn't helping. Her level of attraction isn't the important thing here, as looks fade away with its younger brother youth.
I disagree, don't tell me Elaine didnt looked hot the first time you saw her pixaled. She had this way that seemed to portray that she was equally as tough as them, and knew how to handle herself among men. Yet when she meets Guybrush she herself says he is different. There was no bossy attitude, no screaming, no errands. In fact Guybrush was more of a guy with initiative. He himself decided (along with some estimulation from the Scumm bar chef) to go rescue Elaine. She was able by herself to handle even Lechuck, and the story portrays Lechuck as someone who was handled easily by Elaine previously. We now see a more defenseless damsel in distress type of character added with the bossy attitude.
She was more attractive before Curse. Yet with every each new game, she appears also to be less attractive compared to Morgan. Morgan stole the spotlight to Elaine and people seem to prefer her than to Elaine. She even treated Guybrush far better than Elaine!
Elaine needs to be restored in the next game! And i think we can find a common ground in that part!
Can I ask: how is Elaine patronizing in CMI? She gets upset with him when he proposes to her with a cursed wedding ring - as I imagine any girl I know would - and punches his lights out later, but she's a little surprised about where she is and seems comforted to see him.
It's been about a year since I've played CMI, so I would have to play the game again to find specific references. The patronizing might not have started until EMI, I could be mistaken. It could just be the way her lines are written, might be the voice acting too, or maybe the type of motivation. I don't know, but even with the wedding ring in the beginning of CMI, it wasn't as if Guybrush did it on purpose, so I was surprised at her extreme reaction. The original Elaine I felt would be more composed than that. She did get angry at Guybrush in LR, but for good reason. She was hoping Guybrush had finally returned to apologize to her and make amends and instead all he wanted was to take her family's treasure map piece. Now that is a far more legitimate reason to get mad at a guy, than an unfortunate cursed ring.
I disagree, don't tell me Elaine didnt looked hot the first time you saw her pixaled. She had this way that seemed to portray that she was equally as tough as them, and knew how to handle herself among men. Yet when she meets Guybrush she herself says he is different. There was no bossy attitude, no screaming, no errands. In fact Guybrush was more of a guy with initiative.
Yes, I agree completely. I wanted to be exactly like Elaine when I grew up (when I first played SMI and LR). She was awesome in every way. The perfect role model for a little girl.
Both their characters were very strong. Guybrush had less experience in life, and so Elaine was a bit ahead of him there (like when she perfectly planned her escape from LeChuck in the church) but Guybrush was capable (if a bit naive) and still is in the subsequent games.
And sadly, I too was kind of cheering for Morgan for most of Tales. Never thought I would say that. I hope to see the next game makes Elaine gain back some of her former glory.
I thought Elaine's personality in the first two MI games was excellent, whereas in CMI and especially EMI it REALLY went downhill. A common trend I notice a lot is that when people. . . (ok, I'm just gonna say it) men who don't know how to write female characters get handed one who's strong, they seem to automatically think that "strong" equals violent, hence Elaine being all shouty and physically abusive in the later games when there was absolutely no evidence of her being like that in the first two. I guess it's just an old sexist way of thinking that strong opinionated woman = "bitch." And that gets incorporated into the character development when you have writers who are less than capable in that area.
Of course, I could be wrong--I don't know what the development process was like per how Elaine's character turned out versus how they may have wanted her to turn out, that's just how it comes across to me.
However, I thought they took a huge step back in the right direction with Elaine's character in ToMI and I liked her a lot better. It really felt like not only did she and Guybrush love each other, but that they were a real team and that's a sense I never got in. .well, any of the games, really.
I think it's not a problem with her physical appearance as much as with her attitude. Posture, expressions... All of these are kind of part of her appearance, but what I mean is I don't think her face her body were bad in ToMI.
The tone of voice and manner of speech can also account for a lot. There are some people you just respect when they talk, they never have to raise their voice. Elaine was like that in the first two games.
I agree with Ignis that a lot of strong women are portrayed as bitchy. Males can be strong and command respect without ever being portrayed as violent. They just nod or wave and every one shuts up. There is no reason it can't be the same for a woman, though. You don't earn people's respect by yelling at them or punching them or anything. You can make them afraid of you but I doubt they'd respect you much, and if they do it will be despite your violent behaviour, not because of it.
Anyways, I agree Curse Elaine was off the mark for me. That's when Elaine changed. On the other hand, that's when she seemed to develop a personality, too. She was barely present in the first two games, and when she was, she was a bit too "perfect". When she was here to stay, becoming the hero's wife, she needed to show another side of her, with quirks, mistakes being made, a more vulnerable side, things like that. I don't thing Curse went in the best direction though. There are a few times when Guybrush seems afraid of her, and that's not good. I don't think you should ever be afraid of someone you share you life with, it's a bad sign. Afraid for them, yes, but not of them.
Personally, I never liked the fact that Elaine and Guybrush married. It just didn't feel right (not to mention rushed). And I don't say that just because Ron Gilbert didn't intend them to be married.
But after LeChuck's Revenge, every single game have been about co-operating with Elaine (obeying her commands), and eventually saving her. I think her presence is overdone in the later games (compared to the first two). I think Elaine should stay the way she was done in Revenge. A past love-affair that didn't work out, bitter but still caring - but she should never subdue to the admiration and affection she still has for Guybrush, which seems extremely overdone. I don't see Elaine as the romantic type, and she's a bit over romantic nowadays, imo.
I partially agree with you, StarEye. I do think games revolve too much around their relationship. I'm probably repeating myself there, but what the heck.
They are married, yes. I personally don't have a problem with that. Must it be the center of the attention? Is it really necessary to have obstacles to their couple that they overcome in the end, like some king of sitcom?
It's an established relationship. They're married. Let's move on.
People seem to focus on that too much, in every kind of medium. You rarely see a series in which every episode revolves around two siblings, and their relationship, and how they overcome jealousy or rivalry to consider each other family again. Over and over again.
And when you have two best friends, you don't spend every story focusing on how they stop trusting each other, until in the end they realise they were wrong and can stay friends.
The way it usually goes is that their being siblings, friends, or any type of relationshp just happens to be a fact in the background of the story.
But when you have a couple, oh my god, everything seems to have to revolve around them, and how they break up and get back together, or almost break up but save their relationship, or get jealous of the first person of their gender who gets near their spouse. And even though there is no improper relationship, the spouse lies anyways for some unknown reason, and it all backfires, and so on and so on.
I don't get it. It really makes the couples lose credibility, I find. I'm always thinking "if they can't even trust each other on things like that/If they argue like that at the first problem, they should break up already".
Sure, couples do break up. But I'm talking here about relationships that are meant to last, but keep being compromised in some way for the sake of the plot. As long as it's the main character(s), of course.
Other couples (the characters parents, minor characters) seem to have much more stable relationships, except for the occasional storyline of "my parents might split up, that affects me a lot emotionally".
Anyway, I don't see why their being married has to be such a big deal. It doesn't mean that they have to argue or kiss every time they're in the same room. I don't see why it should affect the games to such an extent.
I'd be fine with their splitting up to each accomplish a separate mission, but then I'd prefer being able to play Elaine as well. If playing only Guybrush, I'd rather they weren't apart all the time. It seems they've been apart most of each game. (Counting Tales as a single game, that is).
I really don't see the need to even get that involved in the details of their relationship. Monkey Island isn't a romantic soap opera, it's a comedic, piratey adventure tale of mishaps and mayhem. They got married, okay. It was VERY rushed. And slightly unnecessary. But there really don't have to be so many problems with them, and Elaine doesn't necessarily have to show up in the games that much. It is hard to write stories with a married couple. You can't just have the romantic interest show up at a couple of random spots and than disappear again. I don't mind how Tales directed their story. At least it was different, they tried to bring in other elements, and I think they did a very good job of it, especially with what they had to work with after EMI.
I am still so curious to know what Ron Gilbert's original story was for Elaine. But I guess I'll probably never know.
I don't know why the MI creators talk about, in the "Everything you wanted to know..." interview on talesofmi.net, that Elaine's character in general has planned ahead of everyone else in the MI universe. In SoMI, she got away from LeChuck becaus she's friends with several of his crew. in MI2, she plays a very small part and lets Guybrush hang there for so long that his rope breaks, in CoMI, she's a gold statue for most of the game, and we never see the cutscene where she actually redirects the rollercoaster, and in EMI, she's on Melee the whole time trying to win back her Governorship.
In what way does this mean she's always a step ahead of everyone else?
In what way does this mean she's always a step ahead of everyone else?
Yeah, it struck me as odd too. She's clever and resourceful, sure, but she doesn't seem like the type to plan everything ahead. I felt it made her look too manipulative in Tales, with the whole "I knew it all" although I'm happy believing that she actually didn't know anything.
I can believe she's the type to be prepared for anything, and adapt to it, though. That I feel is more like her, and then if she suspects something, she can act according to it (such as giving her ring to GB in the hope that it would protect him since it's so powerful because she can tell something is wrong).
I really don't see the need to even get that involved in the details of their relationship. Monkey Island isn't a romantic soap opera, it's a comedic, piratey adventure tale of mishaps and mayhem.
This. It's pretty much what bothered me about Morgan as a character too. Maybe they put so much drama on her end that a comically exaggerated character like Elaine suddenly looks bad because she doesn't act in the same way.
I think this thread is looking way too far into it. She is mean and a smartass most of the time on-screen because it's funny, it is a caricature of a piratey wife. I think it would be boring and awkward if we stray too far from that. (in fact I felt ToMI did that too much) I'm satisfied with the other aspects of their marriage being "just there" because it's simple.
Forme the relationship is notthe problem. The problem is the way they have changed the personalityu of Elaine. In the first 2 games Elaine is the pirate with the skills to deal with all the boys, meanwhile Guybrush was the goofy pirate. That has changed! Now Elaine is bossy, screams, demands and depends on the help of Guybvrush meanwhile Guybrush is like the errand boy.
In fact how Morgan is portrayed in TOMI is somewhat how i perceived Elaine in the 1st game. Morgan has skills its athletic and knows how to survive in a world of pirate, as Elaine was in the 1st 2 games. Theonly thing Morgan has thta Elaine doesnt is the love for money and the pirate hunter aspect.
I don't know why the MI creators talk about, in the "Everything you wanted to know..." interview on talesofmi.net, that Elaine's character in general has planned ahead of everyone else in the MI universe. In SoMI, she got away from LeChuck becaus she's friends with several of his crew.
I think she intuits what will happen, and knows what cards she holds. She has loyal allies and knows how to use them. She knew she was friends with LeChuck's crew so she knew ahead of time she'd be able to escape.
I can see her character as one that is always ahead of everyone in the game. At least I can see that in the first two games. Although she didn't play a very large role in LR. That doesn't hold true for the latter games though.
I agree with what you said Everlast. Morgan, to me, has more of the qualities I thought Elaine had in the first two games. Actually, Morgan makes me think of a combination between the Elaine in SMI and the Swordmaster in SMI.
Another thing, pirating used to be more important than Elaine for Guybrush. Remember in MI2, where he flirted with her just to get the map piece? Nowadays, he's just completely devoted to Elaine and values her over anything.
And the first thing I thought when I watched Pirates of the Caribbean for the very first time was "Wow, Jack Sparrow is like a perfect copy of Guybrush!". You know, witty, smart and clumsy at the same time, and piracy meant everything to him. Even when deserted on an Island, he was happy as long as he had Rum.
Guybrush of today is more Will than Jack. Something I don't really agree with. So either, Elaine has changed Guybrush, or Guybrush has been changed. I'm more likely to believe the latter, because he started showing signs of it early in CMI. Even the intro has him worrying deeply about Elaine, as if he was his boyfriend for years already, while in MI2, he only cared for himself. He hardly saw Elaine at all in that game. Something must've happened between MI2 and CMI that made him into the Guybrush he is today.
But if they reason it with "Elaine changed him", then that's a shame, considering how many of us don't like the direction they took Elaine.
he started showing signs of it early in CMI. Even the intro has him worrying deeply about Elaine, as if he was his boyfriend for years already, while in MI2, he only cared for himself. He hardly saw Elaine at all in that game. Something must've happened between MI2 and CMI that made him into the Guybrush he is today.
The something that happened was Ron Gilbert left, and LucasArts thought it would bring in sales to marry Elaine and Guybrush. Or so that makes the most sense to me.
We have no idea of what really happened at the end of MI2. The explanation they gave in CMI was never sufficient for me. You don't just drop two kids (one with demonic eyes) in a carnival scene and than ignore that it happened. But assuming a ton of stuff happened between MI2 and CMI, then them getting married in CMI isn't that crazy of an idea. And I suppose all that stuff that happened between MI2 and CMI could explain their character changes. But really, nothing was explained, and I still think Elaine needs to get a bit of a revamp.
How would marrying Elaine and Guybrush cause better sales? I'm really curious.
Probably in the same way that everyone expects the hero to get the girl in the end of a blockbuster movie. And seriously, the love between them WAS hinted at plenty of times in the first two games, they were just never setting anything in stone. CMI did, and it was the easiest way out, which I think is a decision the series suffers from today.
While the ending of MI2 was completely unexpected, CMI was incredibly obvious. That might also be one of the reasons - I don't know if people critisized the ending of MI2 at that time, but if they were, they probably didn't want to do the same mistake again. But again, this was handled in the wrong way, imo.
EDIT: also, romantic story means more girls play the games. And they WERE going for a childish cartoonish look.
EDIT: also, romantic story means more girls play the games. And they WERE going for a childish cartoonish look.
Those two reasons right there. It is just a more well accepted storyline to the general public. At least that is what I assumed.
And I admit, at the time (I was about 10 years old) when CMI came out, I was thrilled Elaine and Guybrush got married. I'm sure I would have bought it anyway without that. But it was an extra pull. (I didn't particularly like the ending of LR at that point in my life either - because it was creepy and didn't tie up all the loose ends). But I was a little girl. When I got older and learned about what a good story arc means, and what well written plots mean, I realized how great LR's plot was and how interesting and unique the ending was and then I started to think that hey, maybe they shouldn't have gotten married so fast, and maybe it was causing the series and characters to change drastically. There are many directions that were cut off from the pool of possibilities when CMI's storyline had to be incorporated into the MI world.
Comments
The thing about CMI was that it was a huge change, but I consider it to be a beautifully executed game nonetheless. The character designs were more humorous and very different. All of a sudden Guybrush was more cartoon-like. Less was left to the imagination (that a few pixels can allow).
I was much more concerned with the personalities of the characters changing then the way they were drawn. Even though Guybrush has evolved as a character, he is still the same Guybrush I always expect. Elaine, however changed drastically, in my opinion.
Elaine was the responsible one, independent, a little introverted, but she cared about people, and was loved by everyone in the Caribbean. She was a strong and respected leader among lazy but brutal pirates. And then something changed in CMI, Elaine lost something vital to her character. She started acting whiny and petty. Sure she was always a little hot tempered, and looked upon Guybrush with amusement, but in a good way. She was never truly patronizing until CMI onward. She had a noble quality in the first two games that I haven't seen since. It could just be my own thoughts that I brought to the character when I first played, but I feel like she has lost her identity lately.
I understand that having comedy in Guybrush and Elaine's dialogue is very important and should be there, but there is just something missing in Elaine. I don't know how to explain it. Maybe she just needs some more scenes to round out her current personality.
Edit: I can still see this Guybrush within all the forms he has taken, but this Elaine is just not in there anymore.
I think what I miss most about Elaine is her presence; she never really needed to scream pirate at those guys on Spinner Cay, or at least wouldn't have back in SMI. That was definitely lost, her redeeming moments in TMI04 and 05 regardless. I'd be interested in seeing it return.
Her character model in those games was really attractive, and you could tell Guybrush really has a nice taste in chicks. In the rest of the games things change a lil bit. I could accept Curse portrayal of Elaine (maybe im biased just because of how good the game was), but i also think Elaine started to be so freakingly abusive in Curse, Escape and TOMI. She is so bossy in the last 2 games there comes a time you wish she could shut the hell up. I think TTG has to study a little bit Elaine's character and reach a healthy balance because for me Elaine's character was destroyed in TOMI.
If TTG can make a sexy character model of Morgan, why are they struggling making a nice looking Elaine? Elaine has gone since the first edition of SOMI from a good looking girlfriend of Guybrush that made u proud to be playing a pirate with a nice taste, to a girl resembling a blood elf, without the pointy ears.
Even Guybrush was struggling to like her. Theres something off of it that makes her not be the same Elaine that we all fell in love when we first got introduced to her. Whats worst, this is the age where graphics are not done with pixels, but where you literally have so many tools to make everything pretty. Elaine's not looking pretty and when you compare Elaine's portrayal with Morgan's character you couldn't help but feel simpathy with Morgan and hate Elaine. There comes a point where Morgan overshadows Elaine, and instead of rooting for Elaine you start to root for Morgan. For example the swordfight!
I believe Elaine's charcter the next time should be carefully constructed and reevaluated so that next time we feel comfortable in Guybrush decision staying with Elaines. In the end it sounded sad to think Guybrush stayed with an alltime anoying Elaine, than with always a good and bearable kick ass Morgan. This is something that shouldnt happen again, in order to not continue the decadent descent each newly released game has started with Elaine.
I guess that's lost now that she isn't anymore, though.
I agree that she never seemed to raise her voice in the first two games, but maybe that's because there were no voices? Still, while she seemed to know what she wanted, she didn't seem to lose her temper then. Later on she seems quick to lose her temper, less collected, more violent. I'm not sure why. But in a way it makes her seem more human, she has obvious flaws now, when we first meet her she's like that perfect woman who falls in love with the young, inexperienced, goofy hero for no reason at all after seeing him for two seconds.
She was more attractive before Curse. Yet with every each new game, she appears also to be less attractive compared to Morgan. Morgan stole the spotlight to Elaine and people seem to prefer her than to Elaine. She even treated Guybrush far better than Elaine!
Elaine needs to be restored in the next game! And i think we can find a common ground in that part!
It's been about a year since I've played CMI, so I would have to play the game again to find specific references. The patronizing might not have started until EMI, I could be mistaken. It could just be the way her lines are written, might be the voice acting too, or maybe the type of motivation. I don't know, but even with the wedding ring in the beginning of CMI, it wasn't as if Guybrush did it on purpose, so I was surprised at her extreme reaction. The original Elaine I felt would be more composed than that. She did get angry at Guybrush in LR, but for good reason. She was hoping Guybrush had finally returned to apologize to her and make amends and instead all he wanted was to take her family's treasure map piece. Now that is a far more legitimate reason to get mad at a guy, than an unfortunate cursed ring.
Yes, I agree completely. I wanted to be exactly like Elaine when I grew up (when I first played SMI and LR). She was awesome in every way. The perfect role model for a little girl.
Both their characters were very strong. Guybrush had less experience in life, and so Elaine was a bit ahead of him there (like when she perfectly planned her escape from LeChuck in the church) but Guybrush was capable (if a bit naive) and still is in the subsequent games.
And sadly, I too was kind of cheering for Morgan for most of Tales. Never thought I would say that. I hope to see the next game makes Elaine gain back some of her former glory.
Of course, I could be wrong--I don't know what the development process was like per how Elaine's character turned out versus how they may have wanted her to turn out, that's just how it comes across to me.
However, I thought they took a huge step back in the right direction with Elaine's character in ToMI and I liked her a lot better. It really felt like not only did she and Guybrush love each other, but that they were a real team and that's a sense I never got in. .well, any of the games, really.
The tone of voice and manner of speech can also account for a lot. There are some people you just respect when they talk, they never have to raise their voice. Elaine was like that in the first two games.
I agree with Ignis that a lot of strong women are portrayed as bitchy. Males can be strong and command respect without ever being portrayed as violent. They just nod or wave and every one shuts up. There is no reason it can't be the same for a woman, though. You don't earn people's respect by yelling at them or punching them or anything. You can make them afraid of you but I doubt they'd respect you much, and if they do it will be despite your violent behaviour, not because of it.
Anyways, I agree Curse Elaine was off the mark for me. That's when Elaine changed. On the other hand, that's when she seemed to develop a personality, too. She was barely present in the first two games, and when she was, she was a bit too "perfect". When she was here to stay, becoming the hero's wife, she needed to show another side of her, with quirks, mistakes being made, a more vulnerable side, things like that. I don't thing Curse went in the best direction though. There are a few times when Guybrush seems afraid of her, and that's not good. I don't think you should ever be afraid of someone you share you life with, it's a bad sign. Afraid for them, yes, but not of them.
But after LeChuck's Revenge, every single game have been about co-operating with Elaine (obeying her commands), and eventually saving her. I think her presence is overdone in the later games (compared to the first two). I think Elaine should stay the way she was done in Revenge. A past love-affair that didn't work out, bitter but still caring - but she should never subdue to the admiration and affection she still has for Guybrush, which seems extremely overdone. I don't see Elaine as the romantic type, and she's a bit over romantic nowadays, imo.
They are married, yes. I personally don't have a problem with that. Must it be the center of the attention? Is it really necessary to have obstacles to their couple that they overcome in the end, like some king of sitcom?
It's an established relationship. They're married. Let's move on.
People seem to focus on that too much, in every kind of medium. You rarely see a series in which every episode revolves around two siblings, and their relationship, and how they overcome jealousy or rivalry to consider each other family again. Over and over again.
And when you have two best friends, you don't spend every story focusing on how they stop trusting each other, until in the end they realise they were wrong and can stay friends.
The way it usually goes is that their being siblings, friends, or any type of relationshp just happens to be a fact in the background of the story.
But when you have a couple, oh my god, everything seems to have to revolve around them, and how they break up and get back together, or almost break up but save their relationship, or get jealous of the first person of their gender who gets near their spouse. And even though there is no improper relationship, the spouse lies anyways for some unknown reason, and it all backfires, and so on and so on.
I don't get it. It really makes the couples lose credibility, I find. I'm always thinking "if they can't even trust each other on things like that/If they argue like that at the first problem, they should break up already".
Sure, couples do break up. But I'm talking here about relationships that are meant to last, but keep being compromised in some way for the sake of the plot. As long as it's the main character(s), of course.
Other couples (the characters parents, minor characters) seem to have much more stable relationships, except for the occasional storyline of "my parents might split up, that affects me a lot emotionally".
Anyway, I don't see why their being married has to be such a big deal. It doesn't mean that they have to argue or kiss every time they're in the same room. I don't see why it should affect the games to such an extent.
I'd be fine with their splitting up to each accomplish a separate mission, but then I'd prefer being able to play Elaine as well. If playing only Guybrush, I'd rather they weren't apart all the time. It seems they've been apart most of each game. (Counting Tales as a single game, that is).
I am still so curious to know what Ron Gilbert's original story was for Elaine. But I guess I'll probably never know.
In what way does this mean she's always a step ahead of everyone else?
Yeah, it struck me as odd too. She's clever and resourceful, sure, but she doesn't seem like the type to plan everything ahead. I felt it made her look too manipulative in Tales, with the whole "I knew it all" although I'm happy believing that she actually didn't know anything.
I can believe she's the type to be prepared for anything, and adapt to it, though. That I feel is more like her, and then if she suspects something, she can act according to it (such as giving her ring to GB in the hope that it would protect him since it's so powerful because she can tell something is wrong).
This. It's pretty much what bothered me about Morgan as a character too. Maybe they put so much drama on her end that a comically exaggerated character like Elaine suddenly looks bad because she doesn't act in the same way.
I think this thread is looking way too far into it. She is mean and a smartass most of the time on-screen because it's funny, it is a caricature of a piratey wife. I think it would be boring and awkward if we stray too far from that. (in fact I felt ToMI did that too much) I'm satisfied with the other aspects of their marriage being "just there" because it's simple.
In fact how Morgan is portrayed in TOMI is somewhat how i perceived Elaine in the 1st game. Morgan has skills its athletic and knows how to survive in a world of pirate, as Elaine was in the 1st 2 games. Theonly thing Morgan has thta Elaine doesnt is the love for money and the pirate hunter aspect.
I think she intuits what will happen, and knows what cards she holds. She has loyal allies and knows how to use them. She knew she was friends with LeChuck's crew so she knew ahead of time she'd be able to escape.
I can see her character as one that is always ahead of everyone in the game. At least I can see that in the first two games. Although she didn't play a very large role in LR. That doesn't hold true for the latter games though.
I agree with what you said Everlast. Morgan, to me, has more of the qualities I thought Elaine had in the first two games. Actually, Morgan makes me think of a combination between the Elaine in SMI and the Swordmaster in SMI.
And the first thing I thought when I watched Pirates of the Caribbean for the very first time was "Wow, Jack Sparrow is like a perfect copy of Guybrush!". You know, witty, smart and clumsy at the same time, and piracy meant everything to him. Even when deserted on an Island, he was happy as long as he had Rum.
Guybrush of today is more Will than Jack. Something I don't really agree with. So either, Elaine has changed Guybrush, or Guybrush has been changed. I'm more likely to believe the latter, because he started showing signs of it early in CMI. Even the intro has him worrying deeply about Elaine, as if he was his boyfriend for years already, while in MI2, he only cared for himself. He hardly saw Elaine at all in that game. Something must've happened between MI2 and CMI that made him into the Guybrush he is today.
But if they reason it with "Elaine changed him", then that's a shame, considering how many of us don't like the direction they took Elaine.
The something that happened was Ron Gilbert left, and LucasArts thought it would bring in sales to marry Elaine and Guybrush. Or so that makes the most sense to me.
We have no idea of what really happened at the end of MI2. The explanation they gave in CMI was never sufficient for me. You don't just drop two kids (one with demonic eyes) in a carnival scene and than ignore that it happened. But assuming a ton of stuff happened between MI2 and CMI, then them getting married in CMI isn't that crazy of an idea. And I suppose all that stuff that happened between MI2 and CMI could explain their character changes. But really, nothing was explained, and I still think Elaine needs to get a bit of a revamp.
Probably in the same way that everyone expects the hero to get the girl in the end of a blockbuster movie. And seriously, the love between them WAS hinted at plenty of times in the first two games, they were just never setting anything in stone. CMI did, and it was the easiest way out, which I think is a decision the series suffers from today.
While the ending of MI2 was completely unexpected, CMI was incredibly obvious. That might also be one of the reasons - I don't know if people critisized the ending of MI2 at that time, but if they were, they probably didn't want to do the same mistake again. But again, this was handled in the wrong way, imo.
EDIT: also, romantic story means more girls play the games. And they WERE going for a childish cartoonish look.
Those two reasons right there. It is just a more well accepted storyline to the general public. At least that is what I assumed.
And I admit, at the time (I was about 10 years old) when CMI came out, I was thrilled Elaine and Guybrush got married. I'm sure I would have bought it anyway without that. But it was an extra pull. (I didn't particularly like the ending of LR at that point in my life either - because it was creepy and didn't tie up all the loose ends). But I was a little girl. When I got older and learned about what a good story arc means, and what well written plots mean, I realized how great LR's plot was and how interesting and unique the ending was and then I started to think that hey, maybe they shouldn't have gotten married so fast, and maybe it was causing the series and characters to change drastically. There are many directions that were cut off from the pool of possibilities when CMI's storyline had to be incorporated into the MI world.