Did Curse destroy Monkey Island?
Clearly there are a few people here that view Curse as the actual down point of the series, really laying into it, saying that the series would be better off dead than to have the Curse/Escape/Tales stories. Now, strong views, could be because of how they perceive the story or it could be something to do with the lack of Ron Gilbert being the main series runner once MI2 ended, but here's a coin flip thread, for anything that was done/explained in Curse, I'm going to take a look at why it was BAD and why it was GOOD. So let's get started:
THE BIG ONE: It was all a Dream/Curse??
BAD: In Monkey Island 1 and 2 we have many modern day references, as Monkey Island 2 progresses further into weirdness at the end we learn that LeChuck and Guybrush are brothers and are really kids at some amusement park, we're lead to believe that the series was actually in the head of a child with an over active imagination, as the credits roll we see Chuckie's eyes glow and somewhat resemble LeChuck facial features, but hey, this is just a cheeky nod to the gamer right? If we believe this route, then there would never be a Monkey Island 3, the idea is out, why would gamers want to play a game storyline they know is just the imagination of some kid, any threatening things in such story wouldn't matter anymore (which is odd seeing as Guybrush can Die in both Monkey Island 1 and 2). There were loads of book titles in the library that mention why Trilogies suck, etc so even though the idea was mentioned afterwards, Monkey Island 2 WAS meant to be the final story, the shock ending was meant to show the gamer that this amazing world they've been in for so long was actually just the dreams of a little boy.
GOOD: But wait, Chuckie's face turns into LeChuck as Guybrush and his parents walk away from him, and let's talk about Big Whoop, in the story, we already know that Four Crewmen and even LeChuck himself have seen Big Whoop and how terrible it is, yet here, in this odd tunnel, the crate is smashed, there is nothing in this crate except for a single E-Ticket, somethings not right here. Then we start seeing things from Melee Island and even the street from Melee Island itself, this is all getting weirder by the minute. Then comes the moment when Guybrush finally rips apart LeChuck, but wait, he's our Brother, our Kid Brother? And this Janitor appears telling us to get out? Then we get our weird ending, with the sinister glance from LeChuck to the player letting us know something is not right. And of course during the end credits we flash back to the Monkey Island universe where Elaine is waiting for Guybrush and comments that she hopes LeChucks hasn't put some kind of Curse on him and this is what Curse and essentially the rest of the series has built upon, has the rest of a series continued on from a throw away joke at the end of MI2, or was Guybrush really cursed and everything from waking up in the tunnels fake?
-- Coming Soon, LeChuck is a Cartoon Villain? The Four Map Pieces Explanation? An Amusement Park?? Continuity Problems? --
THE BIG ONE: It was all a Dream/Curse??
BAD: In Monkey Island 1 and 2 we have many modern day references, as Monkey Island 2 progresses further into weirdness at the end we learn that LeChuck and Guybrush are brothers and are really kids at some amusement park, we're lead to believe that the series was actually in the head of a child with an over active imagination, as the credits roll we see Chuckie's eyes glow and somewhat resemble LeChuck facial features, but hey, this is just a cheeky nod to the gamer right? If we believe this route, then there would never be a Monkey Island 3, the idea is out, why would gamers want to play a game storyline they know is just the imagination of some kid, any threatening things in such story wouldn't matter anymore (which is odd seeing as Guybrush can Die in both Monkey Island 1 and 2). There were loads of book titles in the library that mention why Trilogies suck, etc so even though the idea was mentioned afterwards, Monkey Island 2 WAS meant to be the final story, the shock ending was meant to show the gamer that this amazing world they've been in for so long was actually just the dreams of a little boy.
GOOD: But wait, Chuckie's face turns into LeChuck as Guybrush and his parents walk away from him, and let's talk about Big Whoop, in the story, we already know that Four Crewmen and even LeChuck himself have seen Big Whoop and how terrible it is, yet here, in this odd tunnel, the crate is smashed, there is nothing in this crate except for a single E-Ticket, somethings not right here. Then we start seeing things from Melee Island and even the street from Melee Island itself, this is all getting weirder by the minute. Then comes the moment when Guybrush finally rips apart LeChuck, but wait, he's our Brother, our Kid Brother? And this Janitor appears telling us to get out? Then we get our weird ending, with the sinister glance from LeChuck to the player letting us know something is not right. And of course during the end credits we flash back to the Monkey Island universe where Elaine is waiting for Guybrush and comments that she hopes LeChucks hasn't put some kind of Curse on him and this is what Curse and essentially the rest of the series has built upon, has the rest of a series continued on from a throw away joke at the end of MI2, or was Guybrush really cursed and everything from waking up in the tunnels fake?
-- Coming Soon, LeChuck is a Cartoon Villain? The Four Map Pieces Explanation? An Amusement Park?? Continuity Problems? --
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Which reminds me of Broken Sword 1 and 2, also great games with the same heart.
The puzzles were good, the cartoon animation lend itself beautifully to the puzzles and story. The atmospheres were beautifully painted backgrounds. To be honest the first two games give me a head ache some times because of the pixels.
The cartoon look reminds me of my youth/ child hood, Disney movies that I watched with my sister. The pixel look also reminds me of my youth, Fate of Atlantis, Last Crusade, Loom, Wolf 3d (etc etc)
I personally feel that the third game was a breath of fresh air and one of the best games released in its day for it's comedy, puzzles, beautiful graphics.
That's what I think about CMI.
No, I did not read the OP, but I figured that I'd talk to you anyways. WHATS UP!?
Personally I think CMI did great in explaining that mess of an ending (I don't believe Ron ever planned a MI3), but some, like Rather Dashing definitely disagree.
That the "qualities of CMI" for some boil down just to it taking the interpretation of LCR's ending they personally dislike is unfortunate. But I guess I can relate somewhat in how now BioWare makes TOR completely throwing away the plot KOTOR2 hinted at for KOTOR3.
I am not sure that TOR's existence means that KOTOR 3 couldn't happen, and even if they decided to never make a KOTOR 3, any storyline they had ever intended for KOTOR 3 could easily be worked into TOR, since it's a constantly evolving experience with hundreds and hundreds of quests.
It's very likely the True Sith would have been defeated too, something TOR wouldn't allow for continuity and canon sake, altering the plot substantially by just being there...
A possible KOTOR3 would be the like the mythical "Ron Gilbert MI3".
LOTRO has quests that happened hundreds of years before the story in-game. You just play as another character in the past for the duration of the quest. It's still a possibility.
I've always disliked what they did to Guybrush (although ToMI changed my mind about that) and LeChuck (they turned him into an even more comical/foolish villain, rather than a fearsome-ish undead one), but on the plus side their voices were perfect.
The game itself was extremely well done - great music, locations, puzzles, etc - but I wouldn't call it the best Monkey Island game.
To start with, Ron said Big Whoop was never going to be elaborated on hence the name. Okay, the name suggests that it is nothing, but come on! The whole second game was about finding it and the Voodoo Lady suggested that it was the gateway to another world. I don't understand why Ron would put all that info in the game if it were meant to be no matter of importance at the end. Also, the whole dream thing would've been such a let down to me although Ron probably had more planned than just that.
Since Curse, we have gotten five solid (yes I love Escape and think it is a fantastic game) games as opposed to just three. We would not have gotten what I think is the best in the series Tales of Monkey Island or the great voice work of Dom, Earl, or Alexandra, all who have made these characters so much more alive and evolved. The answers to the secrets in the first two games I thought were answered perfectly in the next games and added more to the character back-stories. So basically, starting with Curse, this series has really evolved from a simple point and click potential trilogy series to a great and expanded series of mystery and great stories. Even Ron himself thought that Curse was a fantastic game and that is saying quite a bit since he was the creator of the series itself. I say Curse was the real turning point of this series, a turning point I loved and still do.
I'm not saying 100% that it wasn't a dream (although I am pretty against that theory), but I just hate it when people write off what Elaine said as something that shows no importance.
Agreed, I don't believe that it was going in the "dream" direction. You can't just write off that much foreshadowing and hints at the end of the game and assume that there wasn't more to the story. I think CMI explained it well. I have no real problem with Curse, except how they changed the characters and made them far more cartoonish (but I know that is just my own personal artistic preference).
But to say that Curse is what made the series, really disregards the first two games. And without the first two games, there would never be a Curse. The humor, the characters, everything was established in the first two games. I think Curse is a great game, I enjoyed playing it, and I thought the voice acting was superb! But the mood is completely different, it did change the series completely. Whether for better or worse is always going to be subjective. It took it in such a new direction, it really isn't even plausible to compare them any longer.
And to be fair on Escape, I replayed it recently after finally getting it to work on my laptop, and it's actually better than I remember, rating higher than all of the King's Quest games except for KQVI. But maybe that's due in part to Tales convincing me that yes, adventure games really do work in 3D. Maybe now I'll finally pick up the Sam & Max episodes...
The interactive abortion that was Escape is what killed the series (until its revival a few eps into Tales).
Le sigh...
...Jambalaya?
I like the ending of the second game. But I hate that theory.
You must like every "psychological thriller" ever then.
Not everybody was going to like the graphic style. And if they were making a new game, what do people expect them to do with the bizarre ending that was LeChuck's Revenge?
I for one am happier with a whole slew of mostly high-rated games as opposed to just two games, one nding on a confusing cliffhanger.
This.
CMI was a great game with just the right type of cartoon-ish graphics, and it had some excellent voice acting and not to mention a great story with side-splitting jokes. The only gripe I have about it is that it felt shorter and more linear than the previous two. But all in all, CMI was a sequel that took a step in the right direction, and I feel that the elements it added, like the Carneval of the damned, the explanation of the map pieces, the fate of Captain Marley etc. fitted in nicely with the continuity.
If any entry in the series "destroyed" Monkey Island, it was Escape. They rewrote almost the whole continuity and nearly destroyed it. It also turned Guybrush from a loveable adventurer with a big heart to an annoying and boring wimp. Thank god for the Tales series! It saved the entire franchise!
Also, Elaine's Mardi Gras was not run by pirates. Stan wore a pirate hat, but I always assumed that was because In the first two games, he sold boats. In the original two games, I always felt there was a distinction between who was a pirate and who was definitely not a pirate. In Curse, we started seeing this trend where almost everybody is a pirate. That guy who runs the restaurant? Pirate. Singing barbers? Pirates. Cabana club...for retired pirates. People who are not pirates are exempt from the complaint "they don't act like pirates". Pirates, on the other hand, don't get that luxury.
An entry that doesn't affect the series going forward at all can't destroy it. If general consensus means that Escape from Monkey Island is almost erased from history, it can't harm anything. However, if(for example) stick limbs and a Manny-shaped skull are adopted for every game going forward, including retroactively changing the original games to fit with the critically and financially successful sequel...that seems like it has a strong enough effect on the series going forward to "destroy" it if the general atmosphere is distinct enough from the original games.
Le sigh...
The point being is that the rating of Monkey Island games from fans seems to be based too much off a piracy setting, when the series never really had that much of one to begin with. They were known for ingenious puzzles, great stories, and witty and hilarious dialogue and interactions. That's probably why Mike made the islands so tourist esq. in Escape because he saw the other games had hotels, amusement parks, a circus, elevators, contests, shops, and much more. Tales I believe has the most atmosphere when dealing with this aspect of the series. I just don't understand why some people downgrade many of the games based off something that was never all that prevalent in the series to begin with.
The games also had anachronisms, it also had things that had little to do with pirates. But these things weren't run by pirates. You didn't have Arghargh the pirate clown going to pirate birthday parties while pirate stay-at-home moms marveled at their table centerpieces made by pirate glassblowers who may have enjoyed a day at the local pirate theater or pirate cabana club after getting their hair cut at a pirate barbershop. Stan didn't come up to you and say "Hi! I'm Stan, the pirate used boat salesman!", Elaine didn't have a big "PIRATE GOVERNOR" sign on her door. The things that didn't have a pirate atmosphere weren't being run by people who were ostensibly pirates. Curse and Escape kind of introduced that theme, where every person of every profession is a pirate.
Overall, I gotta agree with metroidreborn.
I see your point, but here again there are other aspects to look at other than the one you just brought up to determine how much piracy each game holds. How did Guybrush find the treasure that got him closer to becoming a pirate? By using a dancing lesson map and then saw that the treasure is actually an attraction on the island and is nothing more than a T-shirt. Same goes when you beat the sword master, which seemed to also be her profession. The name even seems like a title: My job is the sword master. How about getting a ship? You bargain with a salesman to get a good price on a ship instead of just stealing one. The sword-fighting trainer had a big sign outside his door advertising his services and I got the impression he was a pirate as well.
Now, you mentioned that the first two games didn't have businesses run by pirates. I may have already brought up two examples where they may not be true, but lets look at Monkey Island 2. If what you say is true, and I do agree with you for this particular game, then the whole game had hardly any pirates at all. It was all mostly shop owners, party guests, and just random characters. Curse and Escape didn't seem to have that many pirates running their own businesses. The barbers were retired and everyone else seemed to just not be a pirate.
I would need specific examples because I don't remember any pirates running businesses unless we were just to assume they were pirates. Even still though, Curse had ship battles and sword fights with real pirates where you actually stole real treasure and not some T-shirt. Yes, Escape seemed to have more of this issue than the others, but I don't believe that should be a reason to bash it so much because the other games don't exactly soar in that department either. I believe that each game has a more piracy setting when you look at different aspects. Piracy should not be solely defined as settings, but actions as well. The first two had no ship battles or real treasure. Instead you got a T-shirt, an e-ticket, and pirates who actually held organized events for looting such as when did to Elaine’s mansion. Curse soared much more there and even Escape opened with a ship seizure and sword battle.
Man, EVERYONE is a pirate!
[/sarcasm]
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Absolutely NOT! Curse of MI is the greatest pc game ever created...!
PS. I would be nice if you could edit your post to remove the pics from the quote. No need having them twice so close together (same would be true for the LeChuck thread, but this is even bigger!)
LeChuck was turned into a Saturday Morning Cartoon Character!
BAD: What the hell happened? In both The Secret of Monkey Island and especially Monkey Island 2: LeChucks Revenge, LeChuck was this super serious sadist, he enjoy torturing people, he enjoyed ruling, having his way, he never played around or mocked people, he always always there for the long kill, preferring to chase his victims and completely outwit them before killing them. Curse completely ruined this, now he's just some Demonic Pirate who keeps going after the girl, might as well give him a cape and a twiddly mustache.
He's also surrounded by a new army that appear to be the SatAM line up cast, a load of bumbling fools (Dinghy Dog) and deranged people (Murray), plus he even allowed Wally to be on his crew, the same person who in the last game helped Guybrush find Big Whoop, the real LeChuck would of torn him apart once he got back from the tunnels!
GOOD: Well it has been over SIX years since Monkey Island was last released, so at the same time, we had to reintroduce the game to a new audience, LeChuck was at his darkest in Monkey Island which made sense because of the events he'd been through in Monkey Island 1. Time has passed both story wise and market wise to mellow out LeChuck, he's had three months without Guybrush messing him around, it's just been him, his crew and Elaine's antics of getting away (Which we know she can do thanks to secret), this new LeChuck was a good standing to introduce to a new audience but also be somewhat faithful to the original.
Now, is he a cartoon character as such? Face value says yes, but in Curse there is a lot of deeper meaning, we actually find out a lot about LeChuck and how he can be a bit of a bastard. With Blood Island we learn that he tricked an innocent woman into falling in love with him, just so he could ditch her to steal the Diamond ring to buy a new ship. Even more menacing is that we learn that LeChuck killed the most famous crew on the seas, Captain Marley and his crew (later retconned by Escape), in this part LeChuck goes into great deal, and joy, about how he picked off each crew member one by one, harking back to the old style LeChuck we met in the older games, fitting in perfectly with Monkey Island 2, we found out as LeChuck played a long game, bankrupted one of the members into pretty much killing themselves, taking them all out at later points in their lives once they thought they've moved on.
Now LeChuck may be a lot calmer now but Curse actually shown us a darker side of LeChuck to and the lengths he'd go to kill his enemies, it's still in the game.
Yeah, my response was to RD's claim that every character in the entire game was a pirate.
I always have mixed feelings about Curse. Because, looking back, SOMI and LR were probably the best-loved games of my childhood.
When Curse came out, my initial reaction was one of absolute glee that I was going to be able to continue to play my favourite series. And I still think that, taken on its own merits, Curse is a very, very good game indeed. Technically I think it's superb. The art and graphics are sublime. The voice acting is excellent.
As part of the ongoing series I do have several problems with it. It did lose some of the 'atmosphere' that had made SOMI and LR such cherished games in my eyes - whilst that's a subjective viewpoint, I do think the decision to go with more cartoony graphics, away from the moody palettes of the first two games, did lead to a bit more of a carefree atmosphere in the game which was not something that you could say you got from a playthrough of LR (which, despite its many comical moments, is presented in such a way that makes the gamer far more uncertain, far more unsettled in a way (which does sound stupid for a series with many comedy aspects, but I think contributed especially to LR's greatness)).
Before knowing the full low-down of the Ron Gilbert debate, I was a little surprised by the decision to marry Guybrush and Elaine (I always saw them as a pair who were made for each other in the player's eyes but who would always have a will-they-wont-they dynamic, and expected that to be drawn out further. It added to the whole bittersweet undercurrent that I always got from SOMI and LR).
Although I could say a lot about the explanation in Curse of LR's ending, I do have to give credit where it's due; for a team trying very hard to get around one of the kookiest and left-field (albeit brilliant) endings in gaming history, I thought they pulled it off pretty well.
I'm not a Curse hater and the art direction the series went in, whilst different, has shown that with a good storyline, writing and direction behind it it can still produce an excellent MI game (TOMI springs to mind). I think with the hand they were dealt, the Curse people did a pretty good job. But there are things in Curse that I am a bit unhappy about (admittedly partly because of nostalgia) and I would like to know what MI3 would have been like with Gilbert at the helm.
Everything you said is very dead on, I think especially for many that played SMI and LR first. I love the juxtaposition of comedic elements interspersed with a bittersweet, seriousness. And you didn't have to go searching for these elements either, they were right there every moment you played.