I always thought the entire atmosphere of the first two MI games was incredibly campy and comedic, I have never understood why people think they were serious and/or dark in any way.
Oh, they both had their moments, don't get me wrong. It would be incorrect to say that SOMI and LR were both very serious, straight-faced games.
But they did have their moodier moments - especially LR. I found the setting of LR always a little bit odd and unsettling, which I think was because of the artwork, and also the fact that the plot was very rambling and uncertain. It wasn't your straightforward Damsel-in-Distress plot that Curse and, I suppose, SOMI was.
You were never really sure of a lot of things in LR, and that of course became even more blurred when you got to the end of the game.
Of course, there were some very campy moments in the games, admittedly. But I do to this day feel the tone of the first two games, LR especially, is definitely different from Curse. 'Darker' might be an over-simplistic and perhaps incorrect term to use - it's difficult to explain, but I have always felt there is a level of dissonance in the first two - a mixture of comedy and uneasiness - that does lend itself to that bittersweet tone.
I always thought the entire atmosphere of the first two MI games was incredibly campy and comedic, I have never understood why people think they were serious and/or dark in any way.
Agreed (and I played LCR before CMI).
Blood Island certainly got that 'dark athmosphere' as well IMO.
O gosh you have to be joking CMI is my favourate XD Though I have a fondness towards SMI and MI2 since these games I was playing with my dad when I was age 3 growing up. Just a childhood memory I guess. The style of CMI was lovley and the animation was perfect, id say it had the most effort put in then all MI due to the hand animation. With 3D you can pretty much make the 3D modal then all you have to do is put them around like a puppet. Le Chuck never seemed that serious to me, he just seems to be like a love struck pirate who got his hands on a lot of voodoo. I'm sure any rotton pirate, no matter who they were as a person (dumb, smart, posh etc) when getting their hands on a huge heeping helpful of magic, would take the same kind of evil actions le chuck did. I love Le Chuck and im glad he's slighty less evil in CMI cause he scared me in the 2nd and 1st games
I think CMI fits in with the first two. They all seemed to be real sequels continuing onward. But Escape came out and it felt loose - different. Like a side story. Tales also had this feel for me.
I skimmed through most of the posts here and a lot of what I was going to reply with has been said. You could say Curse 'changed' the monkey island series, though I would personally call it 'refined' as changed still has a slight negative connotation to it. And 'Destroyed' is just down right ridiculous IMO. Unless you are a MI2 Fan Boy/Girl that loved the 'kids imagination' concept then I could not understand how anyone could claim CMI 'Destroyed' anything.
CMI was fun, the characters were distinct and enjoyable, the audio was so well suited, the interface was simply brilliant, the plot felt complete and concise, the gameplay had some variation to it that made it more interesting than its predecessors, the art style was beautifully uniform and interesting... I could go on, but I think I've stated my opinion enough.
It didn't ruin it for me!
I played the somi and lcr in quick succession on the amiga.
Curse didn't come out on the amiga and it was quite a few years later that I played efmi on my sons pc.
After the initial shock of how guybrush et al looked I soon got over it and enjoyed the game for itself.
Quite a few years later having finally joined the pc world I bought a copy of the comi and eventually got it to work.
I loved it!
And then came tomi and I love that too.
I think I'm just a monkey island freak to be honest.:D
I skimmed through most of the posts here and a lot of what I was going to reply with has been said. You could say Curse 'changed' the monkey island series, though I would personally call it 'refined' as changed still has a slight negative connotation to it.
Curse didn't destroy Monkey Island, CMI destroyed that specific Monkey Island atmosphere built in the first two games.
I don't know why Curse Fan Boys/Girls have constant need to call someone MI2 (or Ron Gilbert) fanboy(girl) in a rather abusive way
As if there is a "cold war" or something between "Revengists" and "Cursists"
You won't even agree that the interface for CMI was refined in that you didn't have to go to the bottom of the screen to select "look at" or "use" then click on the object? I found it much smoother and more intuitive to click on the object and have your basic actions available to you instantly. I guess I am among the few whom appreciate that though.
Curse didn't destroy Monkey Island, CMI destroyed that specific Monkey Island atmosphere built in the first two games.
I don't think it destroyed the atmosphere, I think a lot of people let a difference in art style ruin the atmosphere for them, but for me, I thought the atmosphere was perfect.
Then again, I also think Wind Waker is the best Zelda game made in the past decade, so what do I know.
You won't even agree that the interface for CMI was refined in that you didn't have to go to the bottom of the screen to select "look at" or "use" then click on the object? I found it much smoother and more intuitive to click on the object and have your basic actions available to you instantly. I guess I am among the few whom appreciate that though.
Of course. I'm not talking about me. I said "some". But either way saying CMI refined Monkey Island is a pretty broad statement and doesn't just speak specifically of the interface. Besides, you didn't have to go down to "look" and then back to the object. You could just right click and get the default action (which was usually look).
Just an observation. I happen to like pixel art A LOT for some reason. So I don't know if that is what is affecting my opinions. But maybe the reason some like SMI and LR better is because they were able to create what they wanted out of it.
I always thought it left it to the player to fill in the blanks. Because every little feature wasn't defined (like in the latter styles) so you could imagine what you wanted, to a certain extent. Or in another direction, you would be less bothered by something you think is out of place? Could this atmosphere everyone (myself included) talks about, be a product of this?
This is all based off of a purely visible reaction.
Also, add to that the voices that weren't there. Nomatter how good they are, they aren't based off of our own imaginations and decisions. Kind of the difference between reading a book and watching a movie. In a book, nomatter what the author intended, part of the interpretation is left to the reader.
I really love CMI. I know my posts make it seem like I don't sometimes, which isn't true.
CMI is my baby. Always preferred style of Monkey Island.
I agree with this. Also, CMI and LCR are both my favorites. I can understand people who can say thet Curse was a little... disconnected of the saga due to the end of LCR, but dude... the main 'problem' is just that, the rare LCR ending done by Mr. Gilbert. I mean, I never knew what the hell is going on, too much 'open' ending, too abstract and, too many options of interpretations... no coherence (or not explicit coherence).
The main problem of CMI and his relation with previous games was the 'yet not explained LCR ending' connected to the fact that Ron wasn't on the CMI team to explain it to connect it with the new adventure and argument.
Also, I must said that the solution the CMI team provided it's pretty succesfull on the goal of connect both arguments, having in mind the big trouble that should be to have an ending like the LCR was as first stone to build another chapter of the saga.
I recently put Curse on my PSP (not to be confused with putting A curse on my PSP)... tried it out for a bit and I hadn't noticed before how much of a cartoon villain LeChuck had become. It sort of reminded me of Robotnik in The Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.
I agree with this. Also, CMI and LCR are both my favorites. I can understand people who can say thet Curse was a little... disconnected of the saga due to the end of LCR, but dude... the main 'problem' is just that, the rare LCR ending done by Mr. Gilbert. I mean, I never knew what the hell is going on, too much 'open' ending, too abstract and, too many options of interpretations... no coherence (or not explicit coherence).
The main problem of CMI and his relation with previous games was the 'yet not explained LCR ending' connected to the fact that Ron wasn't on the CMI team to explain it to connect it with the new adventure and argument.
Also, I must said that the solution the CMI team provided it's pretty succesfull on the goal of connect both arguments, having in mind the big trouble that should be to have an ending like the LCR was as first stone to build another chapter of the saga.
I don't know if I'. explaining myself correctly.
Makes sense to me.
I was happy that CMI explained what happened at the end of LCR. Very happy. LCR's ending was terrible and I'm glad they addressed it.
Goals:
1. Realize that a spell has been cast on you by LeChuck.
2. Break the spell
3. Shave your beard because you look too old to go on any of the rides.
4. Ride the bumper cars
5. Get pounded hard enough to bust through the wall, by taunting other riders
6. Escape the carnival
Goals:
1. Realize that a spell has been cast on you by LeChuck.
2. Break the spell
3. Shave your beard because you look too old to go on any of the rides.
4. Ride the bumper cars
5. Get pounded hard enough to bust through the wall, by taunting other riders
6. Escape the carnival
I basically see the Curse phenomenon as the gaming equivalent of commissioning Mulholland Drive's set designers to make a sequel to that movie that explains away all the ambiguities of the previous film and opens up a string of audience-friendly sequels, and then having the world treat it as the better film for not having a weird ending. The latter three Monkey Islands can be fun but as an artistic achievement the series would've been far better off left with just the two.
I basically see the Curse phenomenon as the gaming equivalent of commissioning Mulholland Drive's set designers to make a sequel to that movie that explains away all the ambiguities of the previous film and opens up a string of audience-friendly sequels, and then having the world treat it as the better film for not having a weird ending. The latter three Monkey Islands can be fun but as an artistic achievement the series would've been far better off left with just the two.
Comparing Mulholland Drive to Monkey Island 2 is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I don't remember Mulholland Drive being a comedy.
I basically see the Curse phenomenon as the gaming equivalent of commissioning Mulholland Drive's set designers to make a sequel to that movie that explains away all the ambiguities of the previous film and opens up a string of audience-friendly sequels, and then having the world treat it as the better film for not having a weird ending. The latter three Monkey Islands can be fun but as an artistic achievement the series would've been far better off left with just the two.
Latter sequels seem to target much wider audience progressively, so they made more and more compromises.
Comparing Mulholland Drive to Monkey Island 2 is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I don't remember Mulholland Drive being a comedy.
I'm comparing the situations, not so much the things themselves. I picked that film because it involves deliberate ambiguity. The only reason I didn't pick a comedy movie is because offhand I can't think of one that has an equivalent ending to MI2, which is a point in the game's favour I think.
I'm comparing the situations, not so much the things themselves. I picked that film because it involves deliberate ambiguity. The only reason I didn't pick a comedy movie is because offhand I can't think of one that has an equivalent ending to MI2, which is a point in the game's favour I think.
The game's ending is a joke, making fun of how ridiculous cliffhanger/twist endings are. It's not this ultra deep thing that has some meaning, it's a joke, and it was never meant to be more than that.
The game's ending is a joke, making fun of how ridiculous cliffhanger/twist endings are. It's not this ultra deep thing that has some meaning, it's a joke, and it was never meant to be more than that.
Before actually playing it I remember thinking that Curse wasn't going to be very good (different mood, not sure where the storyline would go after LCR, new visual style, etc.) but it ended up being one of my favourite adventure games. Also, given the obscure/open-ended/abstract/jokey closing to LCR they had to work with, I think they did well with the continuity.
But I do think MonkeyMania's idea for MI2.5 needs to be made officially.
There wasn't anything stupid about the ending until CMI came around and decided LeChuck's evil scheme was to build and operate a theme park.
Yes it was. The only way it could've been not stupid would've been the real Monkey Island 3 with Ron Gilbert's mind. Unfortunately, we didn't get that.
Yes it was. The only way it could've been not stupid would've been the real Monkey Island 3 with Ron Gilbert's mind. Unfortunately, we didn't get that.
No, I do agree that the carnival at the end of MI2 was only made stupid by CMI's explanation of it, but there were endless possibilities as to how you could resolve the cliffhanger. It wasn't a binary option of either Ron's idea or "LeChuck, the theme park tychoon of Monkey Island".
Yes it was. The only way it could've been not stupid would've been the real Monkey Island 3 with Ron Gilbert's mind. Unfortunately, we didn't get that.
The real MI3? The end to MI2 was stupid and, aside from what CMI explained, neither Ron nor anyone else ever explained it more than to say it was a joke. Besides, CMI is the real MI3.
No, I do agree that the carnival at the end of MI2 was only made stupid by CMI's explanation of it, but there were endless possibilities as to how you could resolve the cliffhanger. It wasn't a binary option of either Ron's idea or "LeChuck, the theme park tychoon of Monkey Island".
At least CMI gave an explanation. Ron did not. I was glad that CMI explained away that bullshit ending. It's much better than having a big-lipped-alligator-moment that no one ever explains or talks about ever again.
If you want to say that the MI universe is just a hallucination or a dream or a fantasy concocted by a child, then pardon me while I dropkick your severed head into a pit of lava.
At least CMI gave an explanation. Ron did not. I was glad that CMI explained away that bullshit ending. It's much better than having a big-lipped-alligator-moment that no one ever explains or talks about ever again.
If you want to say that the MI universe is just a hallucination or a dream or a fantasy concocted by a child, then pardon me while I dropkick your severed head into a pit of lava.
CMI gave an unsatisfactory explanation to a very interesting cliffhanger. To me, that is much worse than an open ending.
Some of the CMI-guys tend to get really riled up when talking about the ending of MI2, but yeah, it is quite possible that Ron Gilbert's original plan for the MI universe was that it represents a child's mind and imagination. The games hint at this at several occations, and getting agressive by the very notion that this could be the case seems weird to me. There are also, of course, tons of other possible explanations, but the way CMI resolved it was pretty weak, and did not fit smoothly into what was established at the end of MI2.
Comments
Oh, they both had their moments, don't get me wrong. It would be incorrect to say that SOMI and LR were both very serious, straight-faced games.
But they did have their moodier moments - especially LR. I found the setting of LR always a little bit odd and unsettling, which I think was because of the artwork, and also the fact that the plot was very rambling and uncertain. It wasn't your straightforward Damsel-in-Distress plot that Curse and, I suppose, SOMI was.
You were never really sure of a lot of things in LR, and that of course became even more blurred when you got to the end of the game.
Of course, there were some very campy moments in the games, admittedly. But I do to this day feel the tone of the first two games, LR especially, is definitely different from Curse. 'Darker' might be an over-simplistic and perhaps incorrect term to use - it's difficult to explain, but I have always felt there is a level of dissonance in the first two - a mixture of comedy and uneasiness - that does lend itself to that bittersweet tone.
(Sorry if I haven't explained myself very well!)
You better be sorry, people actually went through the trouble of reading that! :mad:
GOD!
*ARGH!!!!* *URGH!!!!!* RAGHHHH!* :mad:
Honestly I never got the argument before, esp next to the first game, but I agree with you with LR, definitely. You've worded it appropriately.
Blood Island certainly got that 'dark athmosphere' as well IMO.
Yeah, I see that now. I apologize, my mistake.
CMI was fun, the characters were distinct and enjoyable, the audio was so well suited, the interface was simply brilliant, the plot felt complete and concise, the gameplay had some variation to it that made it more interesting than its predecessors, the art style was beautifully uniform and interesting... I could go on, but I think I've stated my opinion enough.
I played the somi and lcr in quick succession on the amiga.
Curse didn't come out on the amiga and it was quite a few years later that I played efmi on my sons pc.
After the initial shock of how guybrush et al looked I soon got over it and enjoyed the game for itself.
Quite a few years later having finally joined the pc world I bought a copy of the comi and eventually got it to work.
I loved it!
And then came tomi and I love that too.
I think I'm just a monkey island freak to be honest.:D
Some would say "refined" is too positive.
Give it time. I'm sure something to that effect is about to happen in Lost, and unemployed evil tropical smoke monsters might be migratory.
I don't know why Curse Fan Boys/Girls have constant need to call someone MI2 (or Ron Gilbert) fanboy(girl) in a rather abusive way
As if there is a "cold war" or something between "Revengists" and "Cursists"
You won't even agree that the interface for CMI was refined in that you didn't have to go to the bottom of the screen to select "look at" or "use" then click on the object? I found it much smoother and more intuitive to click on the object and have your basic actions available to you instantly. I guess I am among the few whom appreciate that though.
I don't think it destroyed the atmosphere, I think a lot of people let a difference in art style ruin the atmosphere for them, but for me, I thought the atmosphere was perfect.
Then again, I also think Wind Waker is the best Zelda game made in the past decade, so what do I know.
Of course. I'm not talking about me. I said "some". But either way saying CMI refined Monkey Island is a pretty broad statement and doesn't just speak specifically of the interface. Besides, you didn't have to go down to "look" and then back to the object. You could just right click and get the default action (which was usually look).
I always thought it left it to the player to fill in the blanks. Because every little feature wasn't defined (like in the latter styles) so you could imagine what you wanted, to a certain extent. Or in another direction, you would be less bothered by something you think is out of place? Could this atmosphere everyone (myself included) talks about, be a product of this?
This is all based off of a purely visible reaction.
Also, add to that the voices that weren't there. Nomatter how good they are, they aren't based off of our own imaginations and decisions. Kind of the difference between reading a book and watching a movie. In a book, nomatter what the author intended, part of the interpretation is left to the reader.
I really love CMI. I know my posts make it seem like I don't sometimes, which isn't true.
I agree with this. Also, CMI and LCR are both my favorites. I can understand people who can say thet Curse was a little... disconnected of the saga due to the end of LCR, but dude... the main 'problem' is just that, the rare LCR ending done by Mr. Gilbert. I mean, I never knew what the hell is going on, too much 'open' ending, too abstract and, too many options of interpretations... no coherence (or not explicit coherence).
The main problem of CMI and his relation with previous games was the 'yet not explained LCR ending' connected to the fact that Ron wasn't on the CMI team to explain it to connect it with the new adventure and argument.
Also, I must said that the solution the CMI team provided it's pretty succesfull on the goal of connect both arguments, having in mind the big trouble that should be to have an ending like the LCR was as first stone to build another chapter of the saga.
I don't know if I'. explaining myself correctly.
Makes sense to me.
I was happy that CMI explained what happened at the end of LCR. Very happy. LCR's ending was terrible and I'm glad they addressed it.
Goals:
1. Realize that a spell has been cast on you by LeChuck.
2. Break the spell
3. Shave your beard because you look too old to go on any of the rides.
4. Ride the bumper cars
5. Get pounded hard enough to bust through the wall, by taunting other riders
6. Escape the carnival
Ok, now you make it
Comparing Mulholland Drive to Monkey Island 2 is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I don't remember Mulholland Drive being a comedy.
Latter sequels seem to target much wider audience progressively, so they made more and more compromises.
I'm comparing the situations, not so much the things themselves. I picked that film because it involves deliberate ambiguity. The only reason I didn't pick a comedy movie is because offhand I can't think of one that has an equivalent ending to MI2, which is a point in the game's favour I think.
The game's ending is a joke, making fun of how ridiculous cliffhanger/twist endings are. It's not this ultra deep thing that has some meaning, it's a joke, and it was never meant to be more than that.
joke or not, it's still stupid.
I concur.
But I do think MonkeyMania's idea for MI2.5 needs to be made officially.
There wasn't anything stupid about the ending until CMI came around and decided LeChuck's evil scheme was to build and operate a theme park.
Yes it was. The only way it could've been not stupid would've been the real Monkey Island 3 with Ron Gilbert's mind. Unfortunately, we didn't get that.
No, I do agree that the carnival at the end of MI2 was only made stupid by CMI's explanation of it, but there were endless possibilities as to how you could resolve the cliffhanger. It wasn't a binary option of either Ron's idea or "LeChuck, the theme park tychoon of Monkey Island".
The real MI3? The end to MI2 was stupid and, aside from what CMI explained, neither Ron nor anyone else ever explained it more than to say it was a joke. Besides, CMI is the real MI3.
I would have liked this better than for Herman to be H.T. Marley (which doesn't make sense.)
At least CMI gave an explanation. Ron did not. I was glad that CMI explained away that bullshit ending. It's much better than having a big-lipped-alligator-moment that no one ever explains or talks about ever again.
If you want to say that the MI universe is just a hallucination or a dream or a fantasy concocted by a child, then pardon me while I dropkick your severed head into a pit of lava.
CMI gave an unsatisfactory explanation to a very interesting cliffhanger. To me, that is much worse than an open ending.
Some of the CMI-guys tend to get really riled up when talking about the ending of MI2, but yeah, it is quite possible that Ron Gilbert's original plan for the MI universe was that it represents a child's mind and imagination. The games hint at this at several occations, and getting agressive by the very notion that this could be the case seems weird to me. There are also, of course, tons of other possible explanations, but the way CMI resolved it was pretty weak, and did not fit smoothly into what was established at the end of MI2.