One thing that would be DEADLY IMPORTANT for me to even consider buying a Back to the Future game would be that the future look like what people in the 80s would consider the future to be. Everything has to be 80s-styled in the future. I'd also love to see 40s and 50s-era stuff, and maybe a more "modern" interpretation of the future in a "far future" setting.
I don't think the time cop idea is a bad one at all. After all, the events of the first three films being allowed can easily be chalked up to those events being important to the history of Time Travel, or something like that. I also actually like the time machine not being invented idea, it seems to me that the rules of time travel around the invention of the time machine itself can be interesting.
Also, the sadist in me really wants to see someone's life completely ruined in the future.
I took the survey. At 26, I guess I'm just the range they were looking for. haha.
My 2 cents:
The 1930's - love the idea of visiting the time, but like many said - there's no reason for young doc to suddenly change course. The only way it works is if there is another time traveller changing history. (I likened this in my comments to the "Evil Leaper" episodes of Quantum Leap.)
The 1960s - Finding artifacts missing in wrong times could have good potential, but this was the exact same premise of the NES BTTF 2&3 game (well the Part 2 portion of it anyway which I could never get past). I loved how you could freely travel in time but it was insanely hard to finish and easy to get lost. While I fully believe TT could do a wonderful job with this premise and make the game really fun, it first has to get over the bad taste left in the mouth because of the horrible NES version of this idea.
The 1980s - Took me a minute to figure out how Biff Jr fit because he was actually never in the movies, but he does fit in the expanded movie timeline (his son being Griff). This has potential for an episode, but just rounding up the kids and getting them back to the right time I don't think would take a season (unless you then had to figure out all of the stuff they messed/up changed) and then had to go change those.
The 2010s - A Tannen as a timecop might work - but again it is another Tannen just for the sake of a Tannen. (The cartoon went completely overboard with this.) The story has potential. You could escape from him with the theif - then go back to try and change whatever the thief messed up and also try to make sure that Tannen never becomes a timecop.
As with many of you, I did notice that it seems that the stories pick up after the 3rd movie (following the Time Train with a destroyed delorean). I put repeatedly though my survey that they HAD to have the delorean. Just have doc make a new one - I'm fine with that. Cheesy yes - but it gets one back into the game.
One thing that would be DEADLY IMPORTANT for me to even consider buying a Back to the Future game would be that the future look like what people in the 80s would consider the future to be. Everything has to be 80s-styled in the future. I'd also love to see 40s and 50s-era stuff, and maybe a more "modern" interpretation of the future in a "far future" setting.
I agree. I'd like things to stay in tune with what the movies mapped out as much as possible.
Also, I think it would be funny to have little nods to the epically terrible BttF NES games of the past. Maybe having that terrible music from the original NES BttF game playing in an elevator/lobby, or having some bee's randomly attack Marty. Things like that would be funny.
because it lets you visit a year close to the original movie, i love to visit the 80s!!!
also its cool to compare kids from 2010 living in the 80s! its like us visiting the 80s just as in the original movie marty visiting de 50s!!!
the problema with 39 and 68 is that it seems to me that it could be any game about time travelling and doesnt have some core things that i would love to see surrounding the BTTF universe, that means for me, delorean, the 80s, cool kids in high school, hard rock, skating would be forced, etc etc, i think one important thing for the game is for it to be cool, and hip! not like a sherlock holmes adventure, or a game about going to world war 2, etc etc etc
I honestly didn't care for any of the ideas too much, and am not sure I'd buy the game if they went through with any of them. If they truly want to make a best selling game, they have to stick to the original plot and possibly side step a bit to stretch it into 5 episodes. Completely unrelated plot lines will only serve to shrink sales, but then that's just my opinion.
I disagree 100%. I'm willing to bet that a game-of-the-movie is not what most people want to play.
They want new experiences with those characters. That's not to say key scenes (hoverboard, rock and roll, delorian needing power) won't be incorporated in some sort of fashion, so you will still get to experience the things that made the movies great... just in a reworked context.
how bout if the games begin as the first movie, but then something happen and it doesnt go like the movies, it goes like if you made a alternate reality from the movie...
starts 1985 at twin pines mall, but marty doesnt get there on time and next day the delorean is parked in the mall and the docs dead..what should he do...for example...
I disagree 100%. I'm willing to bet that a game-of-the-movie is not what most people want to play.
They want new experiences with those characters. That's not to say key scenes (hoverboard, rock and roll, delorian needing power) won't be incorporated in some sort of fashion, so you will still get to experience the things that made the movies great... just in a reworked context.
how bout if the games begin as the first movie, but then something happen and it doesnt go like the movies, it goes like if you made a alternate reality from the movie...
starts 1985 at twin pines mall, but marty doesnt get there on time and next day the delorean is parked in the mall and the docs dead..what should he do...for example...
I'm with you on the first half. That could really work. The second half, though... I don't think it would work with Doc dying and Marty having no idea why he died, how to use the time machine, or even what that DeLorean with stuff all over it is supposed to do.
I disagree 100%. I'm willing to bet that a game-of-the-movie is not what most people want to play.
They want new experiences with those characters. That's not to say key scenes (hoverboard, rock and roll, delorian needing power) won't be incorporated in some sort of fashion, so you will still get to experience the things that made the movies great... just in a reworked context.
I agree with you.
I'm a HUGE Back to the Future fan. I can recite all the movies line for line, my to my girlfriends dismay. While I'd certainly buy the game, the thought of just rehashing the movies seems kind of tedious. I don't need to play a movie that I've watched over 100 times and a story I know inside and out.
I want new stories. I want to see where else Doc and Marty may have gone. It's basically the closest I'll ever get to a 4th movie.
starts 1985 at twin pines mall, but marty doesnt get there on time and next day the delorean is parked in the mall and the docs dead..what should he do...for example...
Start off the game by killing off one of the series most beloved characters? Ummmm.... no. That just sets such a dark tone right off the bat.
I do hope the game deals with alternate timelines and things however.
Start off the game by killing off one of the series most beloved characters? Ummmm.... no. That just sets such a dark tone right off the bat.
I was going to make my argument like this, until I realized that this is exactly how the first movie opens, the only difference being that in the film, Marty knows exactly what happened and, once he reaches the past, what he can do about it, but in this premise Marty's just screwed.
I was going to make my argument like this, until I realized that this is exactly how the first movie opens, the only difference being that in the film, Marty knows exactly what happened and, once he reaches the past, what he can do about it, but in this premise Marty's just screwed.
It's sort of true, but like you said, Marty could fix it. His scenario suggests a whole alternate timeline where Doc is just dead. Kind of like the new Star Trek movie. He's just too big of a part of the series to kill off like that.
Loved the underlying idea of the 2010, but I'd change "Detective" Tannen to a bounty hunter, hired to track down a recurrent offender: Doc. Still, how a Tannen got to be in that position? Maybe Marty did something that altered the story earlier and we got back to an alternate 2010.
1986... meh, locking up Tannens in a room seems more like a shore and it's too close to 1985. We need more diversity, making Marty (and Doc) out of place in the current time period it's one of the best parts of BTTF.
1936... weak, out of character and too similar to the first movie. I'd like to see the late 1920s and early 1930. Maybe we could see one of Al Capone's minions in action: Elmer Tannen and his nemesis: Treasury Officer Strickland, Marty's grandfather and a young Jules Verne fan that with Marty's "help" got Marty's grandfather so angry that a family feud was declared between both families.
1968... it has a lot of great possibilities (like changing the story and replacing Reagan with Nixon on his third non-consecutive term or having the soviets the winners of the space race)
It's sort of true, but like you said, Marty could fix it. His scenario suggests a whole alternate timeline where Doc is just dead. Kind of like the new Star Trek movie. He's just too big of a part of the series to kill off like that.
Technically, Marty could still do something about it in his suggested alternate timeline, he just would have no idea that he could, and that's the problem. Marty's knowledge is the only difference between the two timelines, but it makes all the difference in whether or not it works.
I'd like to state again that I'm not against a Tannen being a non-bully/evil antagonist like a time cop (I'm just against the whole structured, monitored, and traversed-by-more-than-Doc-and-Marty-and-maybe-one-other-character timeline idea). The idea of a Tannen not being the big bad villain is attractive. Like maybe he's an antagonist at first but may even help you at some points. Basically, a smarter Tannen than his forefathers. It'd at least be interesting to see a good side to him. Or a relatable one.
I'd like to see high end graphics and a "REAL CHARACTERS", I think that Marty and the Doctor are too cool characters and the actors are great too, a digital version of them could be awesome. The original music is very good, and a plot relationed with the JFK assasination could be so cool! Ey, a don't take too many time to translate into other languages... Thanks and excuse for my "low level english".
I'm not sure I'd want a major real historical event to be altered as a gameplay plot point (JFK assassination). I think Day Of The Tentacle covered that mechanic to perfection.
BTTF seems more about family and friends and the Hill Valley town than heading off to 'save the world' or somesuch. Touching on changing a real person's life in-game who still has family and friends alive seems risky too.
I'm not sure I'd want a major real historical even to be altered as a gameplay plot point (JFK assassination). I think Day Of The Tentacle covered that mechanic to perfection.
BTTF seems more about family and friends and the Hill Valley town than heading off to 'save the world' or somesuch. Touching on changing a real person's life in-game who still has family and friends alive seems risky too.
Agreed. BttF is a much more light hearted story. A storyline based around such a tragic historic event like JFK being killed is totally not BttF's style.
As JP said, if they're going to touch on historical events, their best options will be to model it after what LucasArts did in Day of the Tentacle. In fact, I wouldn't be a bit upset if the BttF game followed the DotT formula at all. I think that's probably the best vibe to shoot for. A little less cartoony obviously (no freezing of hamsters for 100's of years), but DotT did the best job of any game when it came to incorporating a time traveling story into the point-and-click adventure genre. It's definitely something Telltale should draw heavily from.
I'm not sure I'd want shooting things as a gameplay mechanic. I think DOOM covered that mechanic to perfection.
Obviously this game shouldn't be a FPS, but it isn't out of the question that there shouldn't be some shooting mini-games involved. Both BttF 2 and 3 had shooting in them, Marty in the diner in 2015 and Marty at the Clocktower festival in 1885. He obviously shouldn't be shooting and killing anyone, but incorporating a mini-arcade game in one of the area episodes might be interesting. Having that in the diner probably makes the most sense. Also, I hope the diner makes it in as one of the areas that will be in the game.
Obviously this game shouldn't be a FPS, but it isn't out of the question that there shouldn't be some shooting mini-games involved.
Haha, I was more making fun of the idea of excluding a game element because another game supposedly "perfected" it, though for this one I probably should have used combining items, solving time travel puzzles in general, or clicking on objects to interact with them.
I'm not sure I'd want a major real historical even to be altered as a gameplay plot point (JFK assassination). I think Day Of The Tentacle covered that mechanic to perfection.
BTTF seems more about family and friends and the Hill Valley town than heading off to 'save the world' or somesuch. Touching on changing a real person's life in-game who still has family and friends alive seems risky too.
100% agreed!!!
JFK? 1939??? they sound too out of the movies tone, for me back to the future its more about common life, being a part of everyday life in different realities, and timezones, but regarding a teenager or a young guy dealing with that, for me going to stop kennedy assesination sounds more like an star trek kind of movie...for me must be more about martys life, his family, doc, and having a storyline more close to his closer and most common things...hes dreams,his personal issues,
Not marty being like a kind of "timecop" or "time police" that is going to change historic things...that may happen...but for me its by casualities not by being in that time, regarding his life...not like a drama about life and death of us president, or hitler, etc etc...thats like another kind of game for me...its more like indiana jones last movie, its like in 10 years putting an old harrison ford to stop kennedys assesination that makes more sense...than marty, doc, einstein, george, biff...etc
Since the DeLorean existed, it's always possible to go back in time and get it. Then you just have to bring it back at the exact same moment you took it to make sure you don't undo the events in the movies. Plenty of occassions where it was just stored someplace while the characters were off doing their thing. Could be handy if you want something less conspicuous than a flashing flying locomotive.
Since the DeLorean existed, it's always possible to go back in time and get it.
Michael J. has stated that if BTTF was to be continued, he'd like to be the Mad Scientist for once. Maybe Marty could actually reassemble the old DeLorean. I'd really love to have an almost infunctional piece of junk as a time machine that bears all the possible signs of having been completely destroyed once.
If it's an adventure game, than it must have the "Use something in the past to change the future to your benefit" puzzle elements like the ultimate time travelling adventure Maniac Mansion: Day Of The Tentacle! Like when Doc hid the car in 1885, so Marty can find it in 1955...
As for people not being able to answer the questions, surveys like this usually have quotas. It may just be that enough people in your age range/gender have answered the survey, and so they're looking for answers from other demographics now.
As for the survey itself, remember the plots are unlikely to be the actual ones in the game, they wouldn't reveal that stuff so early on in development. The survey is just there to see what -kinds- of plots people like. I wouldn't worry about any of the stuff here, the whole point is to see what people like and what they don't. If lots of people say 'less time train, more delorean' and similar, then they'll see that feedback and act on it.
Not only that but we should know by now that TTG watch these forums very closely, so anything you're saying here, they'll know about it. Creepy! And awesome, because it means we'll get a better game.
I find it pretty worrisome that in the list of "standard BttF elements" the DeLorean was all the way at the bottom ...
But it's indeed way too early. At least they're doing this survey, checking what people (dis)like.
And involving those plots, I think they're playing around with a dozen of such ideas, then they put them in categories according to game style, then just picked one for each category. Generally speaking, we'll probably see something like those ideas, but the details will probably differ enough to make it appear brand new.
Also, exactly this was already a "Quantum Leap" episode (fifth season). And it really didn't work out as a storyline.
I really like what Red Dwarf did with the JFK assassination. They travel back in time, end up in the Dallas book depository, and accidentally prevent Lee Harvey Oswald from shooting JFK. The President's survival screws up history and creates a dystopian alternate future.
To put things right, the Red Dwarf guys
convince a future version of JFK to come back with them and assassinate his own past self. History is fixed and we have a mysterious second gunman on the grassy knoll - JFK himself.
I find it pretty worrisome that in the list of "standard BttF elements" the DeLorean was all the way at the bottom ...
The survey gave out the options in randomized order so as not to lead you by putting a specific option at the top. I think it was in a different position when I took the survey.
I really like what Red Dwarf did with the JFK assassination. [...]
To put things right, the Red Dwarf guys
convince a future version of JFK to come back with them and assassinate his own past self. History is fixed and we have a mysterious second gunman on the grassy knoll - JFK himself.
That's really disgusting! I do see the appeal, though.
If it's an adventure game, than it must have the "Use something in the past to change the future to your benefit" puzzle elements like the ultimate time travelling adventure Maniac Mansion: Day Of The Tentacle! Like when Doc hid the car in 1885, so Marty can find it in 1955...
And to bring up "Day of the Tentacle": Actually, this gameplay would have interesting merits. What if Doc invented Walkie-Talkies that work through time? What if you actually had three characters in three different time periods - just like DOTT? This COULD be the perfect gameplay. Also, the chances of really messing this game up would also rise significantly.
And to bring up "Day of the Tentacle": Actually, this gameplay would have interesting merits. What if Doc invented Walkie-Talkies that work through time? What if you actually had three characters in three different time periods - just like DOTT? This COULD be the perfect gameplay. Also, the chances of really messing this game up would also rise significantly.
I can hear the hords of angry nerdy fanboys/girls saying "this is a DOTT rip-off" just like hey said "Puzzle Agent is a Layton rip-off"...
The survey gave out the options in randomized order so as not to lead you by putting a specific option at the top. I think it was in a different position when I took the survey.
Okay. Not familiar with the software mechanics of such surveys.
I think it could make for a interesting game to play as one of Docs kids and perhaps "Uncle Marty" Is there Mentor while Doc is busy in his lab, I mean he'd probably be pretty old by now, he was pretty old to begin with, Rejuvenation clinic notwithstanding.
I think it could make for a interesting game to play as one of Docs kids
I thank god that Brown's offsprings are mentioned nowhere in the survey, and hopefully, they're mentioned only once in the game, in a very, very elusive moment. To be seen or heard nowhere.
Comments
I don't know what the upper limit is, but I'm 32 and it let me take the full survey.
I don't think the time cop idea is a bad one at all. After all, the events of the first three films being allowed can easily be chalked up to those events being important to the history of Time Travel, or something like that. I also actually like the time machine not being invented idea, it seems to me that the rules of time travel around the invention of the time machine itself can be interesting.
Also, the sadist in me really wants to see someone's life completely ruined in the future.
My 2 cents:
The 1930's - love the idea of visiting the time, but like many said - there's no reason for young doc to suddenly change course. The only way it works is if there is another time traveller changing history. (I likened this in my comments to the "Evil Leaper" episodes of Quantum Leap.)
The 1960s - Finding artifacts missing in wrong times could have good potential, but this was the exact same premise of the NES BTTF 2&3 game (well the Part 2 portion of it anyway which I could never get past). I loved how you could freely travel in time but it was insanely hard to finish and easy to get lost. While I fully believe TT could do a wonderful job with this premise and make the game really fun, it first has to get over the bad taste left in the mouth because of the horrible NES version of this idea.
The 1980s - Took me a minute to figure out how Biff Jr fit because he was actually never in the movies, but he does fit in the expanded movie timeline (his son being Griff). This has potential for an episode, but just rounding up the kids and getting them back to the right time I don't think would take a season (unless you then had to figure out all of the stuff they messed/up changed) and then had to go change those.
The 2010s - A Tannen as a timecop might work - but again it is another Tannen just for the sake of a Tannen. (The cartoon went completely overboard with this.) The story has potential. You could escape from him with the theif - then go back to try and change whatever the thief messed up and also try to make sure that Tannen never becomes a timecop.
As with many of you, I did notice that it seems that the stories pick up after the 3rd movie (following the Time Train with a destroyed delorean). I put repeatedly though my survey that they HAD to have the delorean. Just have doc make a new one - I'm fine with that. Cheesy yes - but it gets one back into the game.
I agree. I'd like things to stay in tune with what the movies mapped out as much as possible.
because it lets you visit a year close to the original movie, i love to visit the 80s!!!
also its cool to compare kids from 2010 living in the 80s! its like us visiting the 80s just as in the original movie marty visiting de 50s!!!
the problema with 39 and 68 is that it seems to me that it could be any game about time travelling and doesnt have some core things that i would love to see surrounding the BTTF universe, that means for me, delorean, the 80s, cool kids in high school, hard rock, skating would be forced, etc etc, i think one important thing for the game is for it to be cool, and hip! not like a sherlock holmes adventure, or a game about going to world war 2, etc etc etc
They want new experiences with those characters. That's not to say key scenes (hoverboard, rock and roll, delorian needing power) won't be incorporated in some sort of fashion, so you will still get to experience the things that made the movies great... just in a reworked context.
starts 1985 at twin pines mall, but marty doesnt get there on time and next day the delorean is parked in the mall and the docs dead..what should he do...for example...
Yes.
I'm with you on the first half. That could really work. The second half, though... I don't think it would work with Doc dying and Marty having no idea why he died, how to use the time machine, or even what that DeLorean with stuff all over it is supposed to do.
I agree with you.
I'm a HUGE Back to the Future fan. I can recite all the movies line for line, my to my girlfriends dismay. While I'd certainly buy the game, the thought of just rehashing the movies seems kind of tedious. I don't need to play a movie that I've watched over 100 times and a story I know inside and out.
I want new stories. I want to see where else Doc and Marty may have gone. It's basically the closest I'll ever get to a 4th movie.
Start off the game by killing off one of the series most beloved characters? Ummmm.... no. That just sets such a dark tone right off the bat.
I do hope the game deals with alternate timelines and things however.
I was going to make my argument like this, until I realized that this is exactly how the first movie opens, the only difference being that in the film, Marty knows exactly what happened and, once he reaches the past, what he can do about it, but in this premise Marty's just screwed.
It's sort of true, but like you said, Marty could fix it. His scenario suggests a whole alternate timeline where Doc is just dead. Kind of like the new Star Trek movie. He's just too big of a part of the series to kill off like that.
1986... meh, locking up Tannens in a room seems more like a shore and it's too close to 1985. We need more diversity, making Marty (and Doc) out of place in the current time period it's one of the best parts of BTTF.
1936... weak, out of character and too similar to the first movie. I'd like to see the late 1920s and early 1930. Maybe we could see one of Al Capone's minions in action: Elmer Tannen and his nemesis: Treasury Officer Strickland, Marty's grandfather and a young Jules Verne fan that with Marty's "help" got Marty's grandfather so angry that a family feud was declared between both families.
1968... it has a lot of great possibilities (like changing the story and replacing Reagan with Nixon on his third non-consecutive term or having the soviets the winners of the space race)
Technically, Marty could still do something about it in his suggested alternate timeline, he just would have no idea that he could, and that's the problem. Marty's knowledge is the only difference between the two timelines, but it makes all the difference in whether or not it works.
BTTF seems more about family and friends and the Hill Valley town than heading off to 'save the world' or somesuch. Touching on changing a real person's life in-game who still has family and friends alive seems risky too.
Agreed. BttF is a much more light hearted story. A storyline based around such a tragic historic event like JFK being killed is totally not BttF's style.
As JP said, if they're going to touch on historical events, their best options will be to model it after what LucasArts did in Day of the Tentacle. In fact, I wouldn't be a bit upset if the BttF game followed the DotT formula at all. I think that's probably the best vibe to shoot for. A little less cartoony obviously (no freezing of hamsters for 100's of years), but DotT did the best job of any game when it came to incorporating a time traveling story into the point-and-click adventure genre. It's definitely something Telltale should draw heavily from.
Obviously this game shouldn't be a FPS, but it isn't out of the question that there shouldn't be some shooting mini-games involved. Both BttF 2 and 3 had shooting in them, Marty in the diner in 2015 and Marty at the Clocktower festival in 1885. He obviously shouldn't be shooting and killing anyone, but incorporating a mini-arcade game in one of the area episodes might be interesting. Having that in the diner probably makes the most sense. Also, I hope the diner makes it in as one of the areas that will be in the game.
100% agreed!!!
JFK? 1939??? they sound too out of the movies tone, for me back to the future its more about common life, being a part of everyday life in different realities, and timezones, but regarding a teenager or a young guy dealing with that, for me going to stop kennedy assesination sounds more like an star trek kind of movie...for me must be more about martys life, his family, doc, and having a storyline more close to his closer and most common things...hes dreams,his personal issues,
Not marty being like a kind of "timecop" or "time police" that is going to change historic things...that may happen...but for me its by casualities not by being in that time, regarding his life...not like a drama about life and death of us president, or hitler, etc etc...thats like another kind of game for me...its more like indiana jones last movie, its like in 10 years putting an old harrison ford to stop kennedys assesination that makes more sense...than marty, doc, einstein, george, biff...etc
Also, exactly this was already a "Quantum Leap" episode (fifth season). And it really didn't work out as a storyline.
Michael J. has stated that if BTTF was to be continued, he'd like to be the Mad Scientist for once. Maybe Marty could actually reassemble the old DeLorean. I'd really love to have an almost infunctional piece of junk as a time machine that bears all the possible signs of having been completely destroyed once.
As for the survey itself, remember the plots are unlikely to be the actual ones in the game, they wouldn't reveal that stuff so early on in development. The survey is just there to see what -kinds- of plots people like. I wouldn't worry about any of the stuff here, the whole point is to see what people like and what they don't. If lots of people say 'less time train, more delorean' and similar, then they'll see that feedback and act on it.
Not only that but we should know by now that TTG watch these forums very closely, so anything you're saying here, they'll know about it. Creepy! And awesome, because it means we'll get a better game.
But it's indeed way too early. At least they're doing this survey, checking what people (dis)like.
And involving those plots, I think they're playing around with a dozen of such ideas, then they put them in categories according to game style, then just picked one for each category. Generally speaking, we'll probably see something like those ideas, but the details will probably differ enough to make it appear brand new.
I really like what Red Dwarf did with the JFK assassination. They travel back in time, end up in the Dallas book depository, and accidentally prevent Lee Harvey Oswald from shooting JFK. The President's survival screws up history and creates a dystopian alternate future.
To put things right, the Red Dwarf guys
I found it pretty entertaining as a story.
The survey gave out the options in randomized order so as not to lead you by putting a specific option at the top. I think it was in a different position when I took the survey.
That's really disgusting! I do see the appeal, though.
And to bring up "Day of the Tentacle": Actually, this gameplay would have interesting merits. What if Doc invented Walkie-Talkies that work through time? What if you actually had three characters in three different time periods - just like DOTT? This COULD be the perfect gameplay. Also, the chances of really messing this game up would also rise significantly.
Okay. Not familiar with the software mechanics of such surveys.
You're just saying that because he played that cop in The Masters of the Universe movie.
I thank god that Brown's offsprings are mentioned nowhere in the survey, and hopefully, they're mentioned only once in the game, in a very, very elusive moment. To be seen or heard nowhere.