Ok, heres one. If you think about it Doc and Marty shouldn't have even noticed anything changed when Hill Valley faded away. Time travel is relative so Edna should have been the only one to notice a difference. Because Doc and Marty weren't the ones to go back in time and change things they should have just faded away with rest of Hill Valley and returned to their relative times (that is if they were even born).
Ok, heres one. If you think about it Doc and Marty shouldn't have even noticed anything changed when Hill Valley faded away. Time travel is relative so Edna should have been the only one to notice a difference. Because Doc and Marty weren't the ones to go back in time and change things they should have just faded away with rest of Hill Valley and returned to their relative times (that is if they were even born).
Marty and Doc are a bit special as being those who have visited many timelines, allowing them to realize when one changes. Add that to them not being a part of the 1931 world.
Ok, heres one. If you think about it Doc and Marty shouldn't have even noticed anything changed when Hill Valley faded away. Time travel is relative so Edna should have been the only one to notice a difference. Because Doc and Marty weren't the ones to go back in time and change things they should have just faded away with rest of Hill Valley and returned to their relative times (that is if they were even born).
It has been well-established in the movies that when time traveller's are outside their 'native time', and someone else changes the past, then the time traveller's are (at least in the short term) immune to the ripple effect by virtue of existing outside their actual time, and the timeline transforms around them...
It happens no less than three times in BTTF2 itself...
First, when Old Biff goes back from 2015 to 1955, the timeline transforms around Marty, Jennifer, Einstien and Doc...the moment Biff goes back in time, they are actually in 2015-A...because they are currently outside their own time, they are immune to the ripple effect...had they been in 1985, they would simply have been overwritten by their 1985-A counterparts completely...
Later, as Doc explains, when he and Marty depart 1985-A for 1955, they leave Jennifer and Einstien behind in 1985-A...the reasoning is that when the succeed in destroying the Almanac in the past, the ripple effect will move forward and transform everything around Einstien and Jennifer...granted, in this case, Einstien and Jennifer were in their own time, albeit they were anomalies in another timeline, so I guess that sort of counts for being outside your own time...
Finally, when Doc is zapped back into 1885, the timeline instantly transforms around Marty, who being in 1955, is outside his own time and thus immune to the ripple effect...in a split-second, he goes from being in a timeline where the ravine is called Clayton Ravine and there is no tombstone of Doc's, to a timeline where Doc died 70 years ago, and there is a Delorean buried in the mine...while from the POV of everyone else in 1955, things have always been this way, from Marty's POV, reality transformed around him...
So, say, the Western Union guy would have 'always' been driving towards Lyons Estate from his POV...from Marty's POV, he pretty much materialised in the street...likewise, Marty remembers the ravine being called Clayton Ravine, whereas anyone else in 1955 Hill Valley would remember it being called Shonash Ravine...
It has been well-established in the movies that when time traveller's are outside their 'native time', and someone else changes the past, then the time traveller's are (at least in the short term) immune to the ripple effect by virtue of existing outside their actual time, and the timeline transforms around them...
It happens no less than three times in BTTF2 itself...
First, when Old Biff goes back from 2015 to 1955, the timeline transforms around Marty, Jennifer, Einstien and Doc...the moment Biff goes back in time, they are actually in 2015-A...because they are currently outside their own time, they are immune to the ripple effect...had they been in 1985, they would simply have been overwritten by their 1985-A counterparts completely...
Later, as Doc explains, when he and Marty depart 1985-A for 1955, they leave Jennifer and Einstien behind in 1985-A...the reasoning is that when the succeed in destroying the Almanac in the past, the ripple effect will move forward and transform everything around Einstien and Jennifer...granted, in this case, Einstien and Jennifer were in their own time, albeit they were anomalies in another timeline, so I guess that sort of counts for being outside your own time...
Finally, when Doc is zapped back into 1885, the timeline instantly transforms around Marty, who being in 1955, is outside his own time and thus immune to the ripple effect...in a split-second, he goes from being in a timeline where the ravine is called Clayton Ravine and there is no tombstone of Doc's, to a timeline where Doc died 70 years ago, and there is a Delorean buried in the mine...while from the POV of everyone else in 1955, things have always been this way, from Marty's POV, reality transformed around him...
So, say, the Western Union guy would have 'always' been driving towards Lyons Estate from his POV...from Marty's POV, he pretty much materialised in the street...likewise, Marty remembers the ravine being called Clayton Ravine, whereas anyone else in 1955 Hill Valley would remember it being called Shonash Ravine...
Your completely right, even though it doesn't entirely make sense. But i dont think the second example is very good cos Marty would have been there anyway whether Doc went back to 1885 or not
Doc's garage should be in John F. Kennedy Drive (see the photo)
IN Game...
They just came back to the future.
And went to Doc's garage
But it look like Doc's garage is in Lyon Estates now!
Sorry, my english is very bad!
On that same note...um...why is there a tree in the middle of the street in that second picture? I didn't notice it when I played through, but i do now.
Hey i just found this thread, im gonna copy-paste what i put on another place, since i think now that this is the correct thread. Sorry if this things have already been discussed,(it's a long thread) but still i would like to read an explanation.
There are three things i don't understand and would thank if anyone could point me out to the right way...
1-If Doc never traveled to 1931, and never went to jail, and Marty never traveled to help him....shouldn't Marty dissapear?Like the Delorean? Why does so the Delorean but not Marty? When he changed Doc's path he also changed his. And therefore he also created an....
2-...alternative Marty. Since Doc never got in trouble in 1931, Marty never travels through time, meaning that he is still in 1986. There should be two Martys in 1986 now.
3-The last one is about the ending, like it happened to many people, i don't undestand how the Doc could fix such a huge mess by travelling randomly and without care through time. At the end, the impression i had was of resignation "what the heck the universe is collapsing beyond repair, let's just get lost in time"
and kid tannen dies originally, so biff tannen would never exist?
and why did doc get transferred into citizen brown, while marty just duplicated, the same thing wouldve happened to both of them in that case?
the ending was about marty choosing his own path, not going interested in seeing what the others future was, because he makes his own future if he wants to.
I just figured that since Doc made up with his father that he had more respect for his estate and maybe ran a campaign to keep Kennedy drive residential. /shrug
Cause I thought Doc sold the estate for the money for the time machine. And its been rumored that Doc burnt down the estate for insurance money. But now that his family has that foundation for young scientists, maybe this time around he didn't need to sell the estate? /shrug
Though from the looks of it the mansion still burnt down, so that's a bit of a stretch. heh Though looking again it looks like maybe there is a house directly behind the garage (possibly connected?) so maybe it burnt down and had it rebuilt onto the garage?
and kid tannen dies originally, so biff tannen would never exist?
and why did doc get transferred into citizen brown, while marty just duplicated, the same thing wouldve happened to both of them in that case?
the ending was about marty choosing his own path, not going interested in seeing what the others future was, because he makes his own future if he wants to.
Doc didn't get transferred into citizen Brown. He died of old age because he never invented time travel, to travel into the future to add years onto his life. That's why he erased from existence.
As for Marty, his duplicate was away from Hill Valley. He doesn't vanish because he only time travelled for weeks, where as Doc did for like 10 years or so. He doesn't just replace his alternate self, for the same reason he didn't in BTTF 2. When events change in his past, it changes around him. I'm guessing the time ripple would be in effect?
Wouldn't it have been odd if an empty delorrean arrived in 1986A? lol.
I just figured that since Doc made up with his father that he had more respect for his estate and maybe ran a campaign to keep Kennedy drive residential. /shrug
Cause I thought Doc sold the estate for the money for the time machine. And its been rumored that Doc burnt down the estate for insurance money. But now that his family has that foundation for young scientists, maybe this time around he didn't need to sell the estate? /shrug
Though from the looks of it the mansion still burnt down, so that's a bit of a stretch. heh Though looking again it looks like maybe there is a house directly behind the garage (possibly connected?) so maybe it burnt down and had it rebuilt onto the garage?
I was thinking along the same lines. Plus, I'd guess that after the mansion burned down(either accidentally or on purpose) in the original timeline, backed by the fact that Emmett and his father didn't get along, probably a lot of people left Riverside(or John F. Kennedy) Drive, which would be why all those businesses could come in and ruin the place, so to speak. If Emmett was more well respected, then that might not have happened.
1-If Doc never traveled to 1931, and never went to jail, and Marty never traveled to help him....shouldn't Marty dissapear?Like the Delorean? Why does so the Delorean but not Marty? When he changed Doc's path he also changed his. And therefore he also created an....
Marty doesn't disappear like the Delorean because even when FCB is created, Marty is still born.
Also Doc gave Marty a Mcfly history book at the end of episode 5, and even admitted going back to 1931 for that reason, that would mean he did travel back to 1931 the difference is he didn't get caught in jail like before and events were different
2-...alternative Marty. Since Doc never got in trouble in 1931, Marty never travels through time, meaning that he is still in 1986. There should be two Martys in 1986 now.
I don't think so, the only reason Marty was at Doc's house was because of the sale which, after Doc and his father fixed their relationship didn't happen. I would also imagine that those events were erased when FCB came into existence temporarily.
3-The last one is about the ending, like it happened to many people, i don't undestand how the Doc could fix such a huge mess by travelling randomly and without care through time. At the end, the impression i had was of resignation "what the heck the universe is collapsing beyond repair, let's just get lost in time
Edna, Doc, and Marty created all the alternate future Marty's from their time travelling. Doc left them there because he knew the time ripple hadn't caught up yet, so yeah he left time to fix itself.
1-Marty doesn't disappear like the Delorean because even when FCB is created, Marty is still born.
Also Doc gave Marty a Mcfly history book at the end of episode 5, and even admitted going back to 1931 for that reason, that would mean he did travel back to 1931 the difference is he didn't get caught in jail like before and events were different
2-I don't think so, the only reason Marty was at Doc's house was because of the sale which, after Doc and his father fixed their relationship didn't happen. I would also imagine that those events were erased when FCB came into existence temporarily.
Im not saying that he should disappear because he wasn't born; he should disappear because now he never went to 1931 to save doc. So he can't be there. He should be safe in 1986.
Think it this way, in 1986 when doc is receiving the key of Hill Valley, where is Marty? The Delorean is with doc in 86 and Marty should be there too.
Maybe im wrong and im missing something, but as far as i see it, this is how it should be.
Your completely right, even though it doesn't entirely make sense. But i dont think the second example is very good cos Marty would have been there anyway whether Doc went back to 1885 or not
Your right, but there's no denying that is what happened...Bob Gale clearly mentions this to be the case in the official FAQ...and as far as BTTF is concerned, it makes perfect sense...(it may not in other time travel stories)...
Outatime is the first time the timeline transforming around the time traveller has been shown vividly and conspicuously...
If you are a time traveler and aren't in your native time, you will notice time changes. So far, we haven't seem an instance of the time traveler being in their own time while another traveler alters the past.
(It also seems that if you were to have not been made, or dead, you will disappear. Otherwise, you simply notice obvious changes until you go back to the native time to find it different (Marty from original 1985 notices changes in new 1985 at the end of Movie 1, but the change isn't noticeable enough on him for others to notice. In Movie 2, his change is noticeable as he is supposed to be in Switzerland, but isn't because time changed around him)
If you are a time traveler and aren't in your native time, you will notice time changes. So far, we haven't seem an instance of the time traveler being in their own time while another traveler alters the past.
(It also seems that if you were to have not been made, or dead, you will disappear. Otherwise, you simply notice obvious changes until you go back to the native time to find it different (Marty from original 1985 notices changes in new 1985 at the end of Movie 1, but the change isn't noticeable enough on him for others to notice. In Movie 2, his change is noticeable as he is supposed to be in Switzerland, but isn't because time changed around him)
I feel that there would be another Marty in Switzerland...in the new timeline, Marty-A never went back in time on October 26th 1985...so he would still be in the present, while Twin Pines/Lone Pine Marty, shielded from the ripple effect that created the 'A' timeline by virtue of being in 2015, would simply materialise on the streets of Hilldale, along with Jennifer, Einstien and Doc, from the POV of anyone else on this timeline...and then, when they travel to the 1985 of this reality, there will be two of each of them...
So, from his POV, does Marty just disappear from 1986 when they return (after the arrest of Kid Tannen)? If Marty (his timeline's version) did return to 1986, then the only explanation is that he disappeared at the time 'our' Marty leaves FCB 1986? Or could it be that Marty disappears from the Delorean when Doc returns to 1986, just like, from Marty's POV, it is Doc who disappears...
This I'm not sure about. I don't think Marty would disappear immediately--I mean, if so, I don't think Doc would be spending his time going to city key ceremonies. But I'm not sure what that would mean about the Marty he arrived back in 1986 with. Marty seems to be pretty lucky about not getting erased or replaced by alternate versions of himself, but in this case it's harder than normal to see how it works out.
One thing is clear, if the new Doc was travelling with Marty in Episodes 1 and 2, then while in 1931 during the first two eps, he definetly still had the memories of Lone Pine Doc (as, at this point of time, he doesn't remember meeting Marty or Edna in the past)...then again, I suppose this is similar to LP Marty having TP Marty's memories during the first trip to 1955...
You're right, it would make a situation very much like the first movie.
The temporal DeLorean started braking down after Episode 3 simply because Doc never invented it, due to young Emmett's path being changed! It started slowly malfunctioning out of existence just like Marty did in Bttf1. This is also why in the later episodes when FCB keeps testing it the time circuits aren't working properly, and when Edna steals it it's apparent that it's starting to fall apart. I see what you're getting at but where would the same Delorean come from?
They'd branch off at the end of episode 2. In one branch, Marty has the DeLorean and ends up in Citizen Brown's 1986, continues using it, and eventually Edna gets ahold of it. After muddling around more in 1931, though, episode 2 would end up with regular(ish) Doc arriving back in 1986 with it.
The biggest problem (with either way of looking at it) I think is that if the version Edna was using was on its way to disappearing anyway, why was its wreckage still present after sitting unused for 50+ years, 1870s-1931?
Ok, heres one. If you think about it Doc and Marty shouldn't have even noticed anything changed when Hill Valley faded away. Time travel is relative so Edna should have been the only one to notice a difference. Because Doc and Marty weren't the ones to go back in time and change things they should have just faded away with rest of Hill Valley and returned to their relative times (that is if they were even born).
The thing was, the ripples had already caught up to 1931, but they hadn't yet caught up to 1986--so these guys from 1986 still had a little time to try and fix things before being erased/altered themselves.
and why did doc get transferred into citizen brown, while marty just duplicated, the same thing wouldve happened to both of them in that case?
I had a big theory about this back when it was new. I won't recreate it now, but I think some of what Doc said in episode 5 is helpful--I just wish I could remember his exact wording. He talked about something happening that greatly sped up the disappearance of Edna's DeLorean, which we ended up seeing in front of our eyes. But it solidified that not everything ripples at the same rate. It's not foolproof, but my working theory is that since Doc's life branched off in a big way much sooner than the rest of Hill Valley and the world as a whole, the effects of the change rippled through to him more quickly than to Marty.
the ending was about marty choosing his own path, not going interested in seeing what the others future was, because he makes his own future if he wants to.
This I'm not sure about. I don't think Marty would disappear immediately--I mean, if so, I don't think Doc would be spending his time going to city key ceremonies. But I'm not sure what that would mean about the Marty he arrived back in 1986 with. Marty seems to be pretty lucky about not getting erased or replaced by alternate versions of himself, but in this case it's harder than normal to see how it works out.
Yeah, that makes sense...I suppose Marty disappearing quietly sometime later in the day makes more sense (well, not a whole lot of sense, but still...)
They'd branch off at the end of episode 2. In one branch, Marty has the DeLorean and ends up in Citizen Brown's 1986, continues using it, and eventually Edna gets ahold of it. After muddling around more in 1931, though, episode 2 would end up with regular(ish) Doc arriving back in 1986 with it.
Agreed...if Lone Pine Doc and the new timeline Doc are the same version (more or less), then this is what would have happened to the Delorean...
The biggest problem (with either way of looking at it) I think is that if the version Edna was using was on its way to disappearing anyway, why was its wreckage still present after sitting unused for 50+ years, 1870s-1931?
I dunno...I suppose that Delorean's personal timeline was so screwed up by this point, that it just continued to exist as an anomaly, albeit a highly unstable one as Doc rightly pointed out...
I mean, let's look at the history of this particular Delorean-its a temporal duplicate to begin with, created by the lightining bolt striking the original...it was used to create a timeline that negated the existence of its original (and therefore itself by extension) and still somehow survived...its repaired in this alternate timeline where its not supposed to exist, possible with spare parts from this reality, and is then sent back to negate that alternate timeline, creating a new one where it was supposed to have returned safely to 'normal' 1986 and didn't make a trip back to '31 (the trip that has led to this situation)...and then, it goes back in time again and creates YET another new timeline, where neither its original nor itself should exist, nor should the spare parts from the FCB timeline that were added onto it...yeah, if you find all that confusing, it should itself give you an idea of how precarious this Delorean is...
The thing was, the ripples had already caught up to 1931, but they hadn't yet caught up to 1986--so these guys from 1986 still had a little time to try and fix things before being erased/altered themselves.
Yeah, that...and the well established fact that time traveller's can see reality transform around them if another time traveller changes the past, while they themselves are in a time other than their own...
Actually, I have wondered if they would even disappear at all for a while, at least while they were in 1931. After all, Old Biff didn't disappear when he handed the Almanac to his younger self, even though he had created a timeline where he would be killed...and he was definetly in 1955 for more than just an hour after that (he gave the book in the morning-the Last Time Departed on the time circuits later showed he left 1955 in the evening around 6)...he only disappeared when he returned to his own time...because he was now no longer a time traveller shielded by the ripple effect, and had travelled way past the event that had triggered the major changes that negated his existence (i.e. his younger self winning 1 million in 1958). Likewise, Marty had about a week before he faded from existence...he didn't just disappear after he saved George from the car because, as a time traveller, he was shielded from the ripple effect for the time being...however, if he returned to 1985 without getting them together, I'm sure he would have faded out instantly (like Old Biff did). He had till November 12th, as long as he stayed in 1955, because that was the time of the 'make or break' event that determined his existence (i.e. George and Lorraine's kiss). His existence beyond the moment that event was to occur would depend on its outcome...if they kissed, his existence was preserved...if they didn't, he was now living past the moment which ensured his non-existence, which is impossible...so he would fade...likewise, I guess Old Biff could have lived safely in the past till the date in 1958 when his younger self was supposed to win the million...once he did, Old Biff's destiny was set in stone from his POV, and he would fade...
I'm not really sure what the 'make or break' event would be for Marty and Doc in this case though...
I would like to stop for a second at the scene where Hill Valley disappear around Marty and Doc...
What would have happened from Oficer Parker point of view?? I mean, we know Hill Valley never disappear because Doc and Marty prevented it, so how that scene plays now?
Parker is talking with both of them about Edna and....what?
When Edna finally returns to 1931 with Marty and Doc, shouldn't there be another Marty and Doc in that time?
If you are a time traveler and aren't in your native time, you will notice time changes. So far, we haven't seem an instance of the time traveler being in their own time while another traveler alters the past.
The only problem is that once you've time travelled you never know when your native time is so they must always be outside of they're native time
I would like to stop for a second at the scene where Hill Valley disappear around Marty and Doc...
What would have happened from Oficer Parker point of view?? I mean, we know Hill Valley never disappear because Doc and Marty prevented it, so how that scene plays now?
Parker is talking with both of them about Edna and....what?
When Edna finally returns to 1931 with Marty and Doc, shouldn't there be another Marty and Doc in that time?
Ones that were still talking with Officer Parker?
Yes there should, but then again a paradox should also be created there as well. Maybe the theory about there never being any alternate versions of yourself is correct...who knows.
The thing was, the ripples had already caught up to 1931, but they hadn't yet caught up to 1986--so these guys from 1986 still had a little time to try and fix things before being erased/altered themselves.
Yh, but consider how long it took for 1931 to disappear after enda goes back in time. Its only like 5 minutes. So logically it should only take another 5 minutes for the ripples to catch up with Marty and Doc yet they were still around for hours afterwards.
As far as real life is concerned the simple answer is that at the very least you have Burger King and Toys R Us on that street (not to mention countless other businesses). Securing the rights to use all those names would have been a ton of time, work and money on Telltale's part for a shot that we see for roughly 10-15 seconds. Granted they could have done what they did with the Twin/Lone Pine mall scene and just changed the names to similar sounding ones. However it still would have been quite a bit of effort.
Storywise when you consider the most recent changes to the timeline it makes sense that Riverside/JFK Drive would become a residential neighborhood as opposed to a commerical district. We can't see directly if Doc's mansion is there or not so it's possible it still burned down, he still converted the garage into a workshop, ect. However the home was back and away from the garage so it's entirely possible that it's there.....we just don't see it. Granted it doesn't explain why Doc's driveway still has painted yellow lines like it's the back of the BK parking lot but I think I have an answer for that: in this slightly altered timeline Doc is actually a much more respected member of the community now. Part of the result from this is that Doc oversees his father's property, the group that gives out the young scientist reward, ect. It's also entirely possible that with all the knowledge that Doc has that Brown Enterprises is actually a respectable business he runs out of the garage and that Doc does work for various people in town (hence the parking lines in his driveway)
Granted Doc did have his moments in the original films. For one thing there's the newspaper in part two that changed from saying he was commited to saying he was honored. However from what I could gather he was mainly considered to be the town joke. Strickland considers him dangerous, 1955 Doc in the original movie exclaims "I finally invented something that actually works!" and at the start of the game Doc (who is apparently already deeply in debt according to various bits of info in the first film) is getting foreclosed upon by the bank.
Now I understand that some folks may not like the fact that Telltale didn't take the time and effort to make the area around Doc's house look 100% like the film. However when you look at it from a story standpoint it all actually starts to make sense (Key to the City, able to afford living there, now a residential neighborhood, ect)
Im not saying that he should disappear because he wasn't born; he should disappear because now he never went to 1931 to save doc. So he can't be there. He should be safe in 1986.
Think it this way, in 1986 when doc is receiving the key of Hill Valley, where is Marty? The Delorean is with doc in 86 and Marty should be there too.
Maybe im wrong and im missing something, but as far as i see it, this is how it should be.
Yeah, I agree...this is a bit of a paradox. If there is a new version of Doc in this timeline, there should be a new version of Marty as well, one who knew that Doc stayed on in the present after the events of BTTF3...and one who presumably didn't have to travel back to 1931 in the first place.
This is one of those insoluble paradoxes...kinda like the tombstone one in BTTF3. If there is no tombstone in 1955 for Marty to find, then he wont go back to 1885 to save Doc and will instead return to 1985. Assuming this, when 'our' Marty returns to 1985 at the end of the movie, there should be another Marty around, one who had no reason to travel to 1885 and so directly returned to 1985. But there isn't.
The best solution I can come up with is that Marty simply disappeared on May 14th 1986 in the new timeline, because that was the moment he travelled back in another timeline.
I would like to stop for a second at the scene where Hill Valley disappear around Marty and Doc...
What would have happened from Oficer Parker point of view?? I mean, we know Hill Valley never disappear because Doc and Marty prevented it, so how that scene plays now?
Parker is talking with both of them about Edna and....what?
When Edna finally returns to 1931 with Marty and Doc, shouldn't there be another Marty and Doc in that time?
Ones that were still talking with Officer Parker?
I think that from Parker's POV, or the POV of any other native of 1931, Marty and Doc would be the ones who disappear, because that was the point at which they had been shifted into another (now non-existant) timeline.
I think that from Parker's POV, or the POV of any other native of 1931, Marty and Doc would be the ones who disappear, because that was the point at which they had been shifted into another (now non-existant) timeline.
That doesn't make any sense. If Hill Valley had already been saved 55 years ago the they would just finish talking to Parker and return to the future, everything having been wrapped up nicely.
That doesn't make any sense. If Hill Valley had already been saved 55 years ago the they would just finish talking to Parker and return to the future, everything having been wrapped up nicely.
Yeah I know it is difficult to understand...I guess the best way to figure it out is to envision a meta-time fourth dimensional framework of some time...as per which, there is a 'current' active timeline, which is the only one in existence until changed, but that somewhere within this framework, events and individuals from erased timelines are still 'remembered' by the universe...and it is from this theoretical meta-time 'Limbo' that time traveller's appear from in newer iterations of the timeline, if their own timelines have been erased.
Consider Lone Pine Old Biff from 2015. At the time Marty is observing his meeting with his younger self, the 'A' timeline is the 'current' future of 1955, and thus Biff comes from a timeline which no longer exists...well, in order to rationalise where he may have come from now, one can assume he emerges from this meta-time dimension. I'm not advocating the parallel dimensions theory, I'm just explaining an abstract fourth dimensional framework that may explain how stuff from previous timelines that the newer timelines are dependent on can still temporarily exist to avoid paradoxes.
So, once we assume the existence of this Limbo, one can imagine that from the new timeline's POV, Marty and Doc disappear into it, because 'originally' in meta-time, they were shifted to a new timeline; much like how, Old Biff emerges from this Limbo because 'originally' in meta-time, he arrived from the then-current LP future.
Yeah I know it is difficult to understand...I guess the best way to figure it out is to envision a meta-time fourth dimensional framework of some time...as per which, there is a 'current' active timeline, which is the only one in existence until changed, but that somewhere within this framework, events and individuals from erased timelines are still 'remembered' by the universe...and it is from this theoretical meta-time 'Limbo' that time traveller's appear from in newer iterations of the timeline, if their own timelines have been erased.
Consider Lone Pine Old Biff from 2015. At the time Marty is observing his meeting with his younger self, the 'A' timeline is the 'current' future of 1955, and thus Biff comes from a timeline which no longer exists...well, in order to rationalise where he may have come from now, one can assume he emerges from this meta-time dimension. I'm not advocating the parallel dimensions theory, I'm just explaining an abstract fourth dimensional framework that may explain how stuff from previous timelines that the newer timelines are dependent on can still temporarily exist to avoid paradoxes.
So, once we assume the existence of this Limbo, one can imagine that from the new timeline's POV, Marty and Doc disappear into it, because 'originally' in meta-time, they were shifted to a new timeline; much like how, Old Biff emerges from this Limbo because 'originally' in meta-time, he arrived from the then-current LP future.
Ok, I see where you're coming from. But you can never really tell which version of Marty and Doc will disappear. To me it makes more sense that the version of Marty and Doc that went to 1876 would disappear as they left 1876 because it would stop any paradoxes from occurring. Unless when they arrived in 1876 they came from the meta-time dimension, then they're wouldn't any paradoxes.
Yeah, I agree...this is a bit of a paradox. If there is a new version of Doc in this timeline, there should be a new version of Marty as well, one who knew that Doc stayed on in the present after the events of BTTF3...and one who presumably didn't have to travel back to 1931 in the first place.
This is one of those insoluble paradoxes...kinda like the tombstone one in BTTF3. If there is no tombstone in 1955 for Marty to find, then he wont go back to 1885 to save Doc and will instead return to 1985. Assuming this, when 'our' Marty returns to 1985 at the end of the movie, there should be another Marty around, one who had no reason to travel to 1885 and so directly returned to 1985. But there isn't.
The best solution I can come up with is that Marty simply disappeared on May 14th 1986 in the new timeline, because that was the moment he travelled back in another timeline.
I think that from Parker's POV, or the POV of any other native of 1931, Marty and Doc would be the ones who disappear, because that was the point at which they had been shifted into another (now non-existant) timeline.
About the tombstone in the 3rd movie...maybe it will exist for a brief period of time, until the time-stream catch up with it...and it would have lasted long enough for Marty to see the tombstone. Maybe if the marty of 1955 had waited a little longer he would have saw the tombstone dissapear? But he didn't.
About the other Marty that should exist at the end of the game....
Maybe he also traveled to 1931 in a simmilar way of the beginning of the game? I mean, somehow the alternate Delorean, the one sended by the Doc in jail, arrives at this new 1986. This Marty has no way of knowing that he is helping other version of Doc and jumps in (while his real doc was in 1931 making the book although never getting in trouble) Then this Doc would arrive normally to 1986 but he can't find Marty. He fears something wrong happened with the time-stream, and after the key ceremonie and looking at the newspaper clip, he finds Marty in 1931...although it's a sligthly different Marty.
For a theory it's a bit untidy i agree....
About the tombstone in the 3rd movie...maybe it will exist for a brief period of time, until the time-stream catch up with it...and it would have lasted long enough for Marty to see the tombstone. Maybe if the marty of 1955 had waited a little longer he would have saw the tombstone dissapear? But he didn't.
About the other Marty that should exist at the end of the game....
Maybe he also traveled to 1931 in a simmilar way of the beginning of the game? I mean, somehow the alternate Delorean, the one sended by the Doc in jail, arrives at this new 1986. This Marty has no way of knowing that he is helping other version of Doc and jumps in (while his real doc was in 1931 making the book although never getting in trouble) Then this Doc would arrive normally to 1986 but he can't find Marty. He fears something wrong happened with the time-stream, and after the key ceremonie and looking at the newspaper clip, he finds Marty in 1931...although it's a sligthly different Marty.
For a theory it's a bit untidy i agree....
Well, its not just a question of the tombstone fading away after Marty goes back...if Marty prevents Doc's death, the tombstone would never even EXIST.
Of course, you could go along with the 'echo theory' and assume that the tombstone temporarily came into existence the second Doc was sent back to 1885, and later faded from existence when Marty went back...basically, its temporary existence was to ensure its non-existence...kinda like how Lone Pine Old Biff temporarily exists in 1955 to ensure his own future non-existence in the 'A' timeline...its not a theory which makes a whole lot of sense, but it could be one way to easily explain away the paradox.
The problem I have with the Delorean coming to pick up Marty in the new timeline is-if Marty was hanging around Doc's garage in the new timeline, and the Delorean suddenly showed up, would Marty suddenly wonder where the hell it came from, since he knows that both Doc and the Delorean are safely in 1986? For that matter, wouldn't Doc be home at the time, and wouldn't he wonder where the Delorean suddenly showed up from? Okay, even assuming Doc was busy at the whole key ceremony thing and Marty was hanging around Doc's house alone, you would think he would wait to consult Doc about it rather than just jump into a duplicate of the Delorean which suddenly popped out of nowhere driverless with a duplicate of Einstien. And even if Marty did impulsively want to return to the past instantly to save Doc (whichever version of him it was), where would he start? Okay, maybe Edna's shoe would lead him to Edna, but Edna would not be the b#tchy old woman she was in the original 1986, but a somewhat more polite and calm woman and Kid Tannen's wife. And any 1931 newspaper she had would not contain any article about Carl Sagan being killed, because Marty's alternate self has already saved the other version of Doc in the past of this timeline...so this Marty has no way of knowing that he has to go back to 1931...
i find that tree in the middle of the street way more disturbing they must really have fucked something up, How on earth did that tree grow right there in the middle of the street.
Season 2, will be about how to get the tree back to the sidewalk. First they will have to find out what year the tree was planted, who planted it, and what caused it to move to the street.
The problem I have with the Delorean coming to pick up Marty in the new timeline is-if Marty was hanging around Doc's garage in the new timeline, and the Delorean suddenly showed up, would Marty suddenly wonder where the hell it came from, since he knows that both Doc and the Delorean are safely in 1986? For that matter, wouldn't Doc be home at the time, and wouldn't he wonder where the Delorean suddenly showed up from? Okay, even assuming Doc was busy at the whole key ceremony thing and Marty was hanging around Doc's house alone, you would think he would wait to consult Doc about it rather than just jump into a duplicate of the Delorean which suddenly popped out of nowhere driverless with a duplicate of Einstien. And even if Marty did impulsively want to return to the past instantly to save Doc (whichever version of him it was), where would he start? Okay, maybe Edna's shoe would lead him to Edna, but Edna would not be the b#tchy old woman she was in the original 1986, but a somewhat more polite and calm woman and Kid Tannen's wife. And any 1931 newspaper she had would not contain any article about Carl Sagan being killed, because Marty's alternate self has already saved the other version of Doc in the past of this timeline...so this Marty has no way of knowing that he has to go back to 1931...
But the way i see it, Doc (the new one, the one living in 86) was in 1931 making the book for Marty, when the delorean shows up. Let's say that Marty knew this, that Doc is in 1931 doing something, when suddenly the Delorean appears and obviously he doesn't have a reason to suspect that it's another Delorean from another Doc, he would think Doc got in trouble (since he knew he was away in time) and he would jump in.
Since Doc, Einstein, and the Delorean were away from 1986 when this other versions of Einstein and the Delorean shows up, he can't see anything unusual. Besides the fact that the Doc is missing.
But the way i see it, Doc (the new one, the one living in 86) was in 1931 making the book for Marty, when the delorean shows up. Let's say that Marty knew this, that Doc is in 1931 doing something, when suddenly the Delorean appears and obviously he doesn't have a reason to suspect that it's another Delorean from another Doc, he would think Doc got in trouble (since he knew he was away in time) and he would jump in.
Since Doc, Einstein, and the Delorean were away from 1986 when this other versions of Einstein and the Delorean shows up, he can't see anything unusual. Besides the fact that the Doc is missing.
But still wouldn't know to go back to 1931 because the newspaper wouldn't exist. If Marty knew that Doc had gone back to 1931 in the first place that would ruin Doc's surprise and then he would have ran into another version of himself (a duplicate) because that was the original Marty saving Doc's. That could have caused some serious confusion.
As for the tombstone, I don't think the echo situation would apply here. I thought it only worked when the echo came from a another time in the time machine originally eg. Old biff in 1955
But still wouldn't know to go back to 1931 because the newspaper wouldn't exist. If Marty knew that Doc had gone back to 1931 in the first place that would ruin Doc's surprise and then he would have ran into another version of himself (a duplicate) because that was the original Marty saving Doc's. That could have caused some serious confusion...
Here how I figure the new alternate timeline.
Marty was hanging out at Docs garage sale, while Doc was currently away.
He hears the Delorean arriving, but when he look at it Doc isn't in it.
He still has the shoe and Einstein, so he will arrive at Ednas place.
He still finds a newspaper that tells him that Carl Sagan was arrested.
(Not the one claiming that he was killed obviously)
So he travels back, saves Doc yadda yadda yadda.
Back in 1986 Doc has to go to the ceremony that gives him the key to the city.
He looks at the old newspaper.
Realizing that it is from Marty he travels back, but of course has no idea why Marty went back to 1931, since they just left there.
But still wouldn't know to go back to 1931 because the newspaper wouldn't exist. If Marty knew that Doc had gone back to 1931 in the first place that would ruin Doc's surprise and then he would have ran into another version of himself (a duplicate) because that was the original Marty saving Doc's. That could have caused some serious confusion.
As for the tombstone, I don't think the echo situation would apply here. I thought it only worked when the echo came from a another time in the time machine originally eg. Old biff in 1955
I don't think it would ruin Doc's surprise if he argued any other reasson to travel to 1931. But even if he didn't know, like the other poster said, the newspaper with Sagan detention still exists and Edna could be much more helpfull now.
About the new doc running with his other version, that didn't happen. This new Doc could have traveld to any other day/month other than the arsonist incident. The older version of Doc traveled to that exact date because he also wanted to know who the arsonist was (and that finally lead him to trouble). But this new Doc knows that the arsonist was Edna, so he has no reason to travel to that exact same date (and thus risking an encounter with his other self).
i found a paradox if edna went back to the old west and burned down hill valley then doc would A. Never gotten the key to the city and B.marty and doc woulden't know each other since they would live in 2 completely different places and if hilly valley was burned down the newspaper marty has would disappear because there was no hill valley newspapers anymore which means marty coulden't have write the message to doc and give it to emmett and emmett woulden't even be there to take the message because marty and emmett would not have met because hill valley burned down
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Marty and Doc are a bit special as being those who have visited many timelines, allowing them to realize when one changes. Add that to them not being a part of the 1931 world.
It has been well-established in the movies that when time traveller's are outside their 'native time', and someone else changes the past, then the time traveller's are (at least in the short term) immune to the ripple effect by virtue of existing outside their actual time, and the timeline transforms around them...
It happens no less than three times in BTTF2 itself...
First, when Old Biff goes back from 2015 to 1955, the timeline transforms around Marty, Jennifer, Einstien and Doc...the moment Biff goes back in time, they are actually in 2015-A...because they are currently outside their own time, they are immune to the ripple effect...had they been in 1985, they would simply have been overwritten by their 1985-A counterparts completely...
Later, as Doc explains, when he and Marty depart 1985-A for 1955, they leave Jennifer and Einstien behind in 1985-A...the reasoning is that when the succeed in destroying the Almanac in the past, the ripple effect will move forward and transform everything around Einstien and Jennifer...granted, in this case, Einstien and Jennifer were in their own time, albeit they were anomalies in another timeline, so I guess that sort of counts for being outside your own time...
Finally, when Doc is zapped back into 1885, the timeline instantly transforms around Marty, who being in 1955, is outside his own time and thus immune to the ripple effect...in a split-second, he goes from being in a timeline where the ravine is called Clayton Ravine and there is no tombstone of Doc's, to a timeline where Doc died 70 years ago, and there is a Delorean buried in the mine...while from the POV of everyone else in 1955, things have always been this way, from Marty's POV, reality transformed around him...
So, say, the Western Union guy would have 'always' been driving towards Lyons Estate from his POV...from Marty's POV, he pretty much materialised in the street...likewise, Marty remembers the ravine being called Clayton Ravine, whereas anyone else in 1955 Hill Valley would remember it being called Shonash Ravine...
Your completely right, even though it doesn't entirely make sense. But i dont think the second example is very good cos Marty would have been there anyway whether Doc went back to 1885 or not
On that same note...um...why is there a tree in the middle of the street in that second picture? I didn't notice it when I played through, but i do now.
There are three things i don't understand and would thank if anyone could point me out to the right way...
1-If Doc never traveled to 1931, and never went to jail, and Marty never traveled to help him....shouldn't Marty dissapear?Like the Delorean? Why does so the Delorean but not Marty? When he changed Doc's path he also changed his. And therefore he also created an....
2-...alternative Marty. Since Doc never got in trouble in 1931, Marty never travels through time, meaning that he is still in 1986. There should be two Martys in 1986 now.
3-The last one is about the ending, like it happened to many people, i don't undestand how the Doc could fix such a huge mess by travelling randomly and without care through time. At the end, the impression i had was of resignation "what the heck the universe is collapsing beyond repair, let's just get lost in time"
and why did doc get transferred into citizen brown, while marty just duplicated, the same thing wouldve happened to both of them in that case?
the ending was about marty choosing his own path, not going interested in seeing what the others future was, because he makes his own future if he wants to.
Cause I thought Doc sold the estate for the money for the time machine. And its been rumored that Doc burnt down the estate for insurance money. But now that his family has that foundation for young scientists, maybe this time around he didn't need to sell the estate? /shrug
Though from the looks of it the mansion still burnt down, so that's a bit of a stretch. heh Though looking again it looks like maybe there is a house directly behind the garage (possibly connected?) so maybe it burnt down and had it rebuilt onto the garage?
As for Marty, his duplicate was away from Hill Valley. He doesn't vanish because he only time travelled for weeks, where as Doc did for like 10 years or so. He doesn't just replace his alternate self, for the same reason he didn't in BTTF 2. When events change in his past, it changes around him. I'm guessing the time ripple would be in effect?
Wouldn't it have been odd if an empty delorrean arrived in 1986A? lol.
I was thinking along the same lines. Plus, I'd guess that after the mansion burned down(either accidentally or on purpose) in the original timeline, backed by the fact that Emmett and his father didn't get along, probably a lot of people left Riverside(or John F. Kennedy) Drive, which would be why all those businesses could come in and ruin the place, so to speak. If Emmett was more well respected, then that might not have happened.
Marty doesn't disappear like the Delorean because even when FCB is created, Marty is still born.
Also Doc gave Marty a Mcfly history book at the end of episode 5, and even admitted going back to 1931 for that reason, that would mean he did travel back to 1931 the difference is he didn't get caught in jail like before and events were different
I don't think so, the only reason Marty was at Doc's house was because of the sale which, after Doc and his father fixed their relationship didn't happen. I would also imagine that those events were erased when FCB came into existence temporarily.
Edna, Doc, and Marty created all the alternate future Marty's from their time travelling. Doc left them there because he knew the time ripple hadn't caught up yet, so yeah he left time to fix itself.
Im not saying that he should disappear because he wasn't born; he should disappear because now he never went to 1931 to save doc. So he can't be there. He should be safe in 1986.
Think it this way, in 1986 when doc is receiving the key of Hill Valley, where is Marty? The Delorean is with doc in 86 and Marty should be there too.
Maybe im wrong and im missing something, but as far as i see it, this is how it should be.
Your right, but there's no denying that is what happened...Bob Gale clearly mentions this to be the case in the official FAQ...and as far as BTTF is concerned, it makes perfect sense...(it may not in other time travel stories)...
Outatime is the first time the timeline transforming around the time traveller has been shown vividly and conspicuously...
(It also seems that if you were to have not been made, or dead, you will disappear. Otherwise, you simply notice obvious changes until you go back to the native time to find it different (Marty from original 1985 notices changes in new 1985 at the end of Movie 1, but the change isn't noticeable enough on him for others to notice. In Movie 2, his change is noticeable as he is supposed to be in Switzerland, but isn't because time changed around him)
I feel that there would be another Marty in Switzerland...in the new timeline, Marty-A never went back in time on October 26th 1985...so he would still be in the present, while Twin Pines/Lone Pine Marty, shielded from the ripple effect that created the 'A' timeline by virtue of being in 2015, would simply materialise on the streets of Hilldale, along with Jennifer, Einstien and Doc, from the POV of anyone else on this timeline...and then, when they travel to the 1985 of this reality, there will be two of each of them...
The biggest problem (with either way of looking at it) I think is that if the version Edna was using was on its way to disappearing anyway, why was its wreckage still present after sitting unused for 50+ years, 1870s-1931? The thing was, the ripples had already caught up to 1931, but they hadn't yet caught up to 1986--so these guys from 1986 still had a little time to try and fix things before being erased/altered themselves. I had a big theory about this back when it was new. I won't recreate it now, but I think some of what Doc said in episode 5 is helpful--I just wish I could remember his exact wording. He talked about something happening that greatly sped up the disappearance of Edna's DeLorean, which we ended up seeing in front of our eyes. But it solidified that not everything ripples at the same rate. It's not foolproof, but my working theory is that since Doc's life branched off in a big way much sooner than the rest of Hill Valley and the world as a whole, the effects of the change rippled through to him more quickly than to Marty. That's kind of how I took it, too.
Yeah, that makes sense...I suppose Marty disappearing quietly sometime later in the day makes more sense (well, not a whole lot of sense, but still...)
Agreed...if Lone Pine Doc and the new timeline Doc are the same version (more or less), then this is what would have happened to the Delorean...
I dunno...I suppose that Delorean's personal timeline was so screwed up by this point, that it just continued to exist as an anomaly, albeit a highly unstable one as Doc rightly pointed out...
I mean, let's look at the history of this particular Delorean-its a temporal duplicate to begin with, created by the lightining bolt striking the original...it was used to create a timeline that negated the existence of its original (and therefore itself by extension) and still somehow survived...its repaired in this alternate timeline where its not supposed to exist, possible with spare parts from this reality, and is then sent back to negate that alternate timeline, creating a new one where it was supposed to have returned safely to 'normal' 1986 and didn't make a trip back to '31 (the trip that has led to this situation)...and then, it goes back in time again and creates YET another new timeline, where neither its original nor itself should exist, nor should the spare parts from the FCB timeline that were added onto it...yeah, if you find all that confusing, it should itself give you an idea of how precarious this Delorean is...
Yeah, that...and the well established fact that time traveller's can see reality transform around them if another time traveller changes the past, while they themselves are in a time other than their own...
Actually, I have wondered if they would even disappear at all for a while, at least while they were in 1931. After all, Old Biff didn't disappear when he handed the Almanac to his younger self, even though he had created a timeline where he would be killed...and he was definetly in 1955 for more than just an hour after that (he gave the book in the morning-the Last Time Departed on the time circuits later showed he left 1955 in the evening around 6)...he only disappeared when he returned to his own time...because he was now no longer a time traveller shielded by the ripple effect, and had travelled way past the event that had triggered the major changes that negated his existence (i.e. his younger self winning 1 million in 1958). Likewise, Marty had about a week before he faded from existence...he didn't just disappear after he saved George from the car because, as a time traveller, he was shielded from the ripple effect for the time being...however, if he returned to 1985 without getting them together, I'm sure he would have faded out instantly (like Old Biff did). He had till November 12th, as long as he stayed in 1955, because that was the time of the 'make or break' event that determined his existence (i.e. George and Lorraine's kiss). His existence beyond the moment that event was to occur would depend on its outcome...if they kissed, his existence was preserved...if they didn't, he was now living past the moment which ensured his non-existence, which is impossible...so he would fade...likewise, I guess Old Biff could have lived safely in the past till the date in 1958 when his younger self was supposed to win the million...once he did, Old Biff's destiny was set in stone from his POV, and he would fade...
I'm not really sure what the 'make or break' event would be for Marty and Doc in this case though...
What would have happened from Oficer Parker point of view?? I mean, we know Hill Valley never disappear because Doc and Marty prevented it, so how that scene plays now?
Parker is talking with both of them about Edna and....what?
When Edna finally returns to 1931 with Marty and Doc, shouldn't there be another Marty and Doc in that time?
Ones that were still talking with Officer Parker?
The only problem is that once you've time travelled you never know when your native time is so they must always be outside of they're native time
Yes there should, but then again a paradox should also be created there as well. Maybe the theory about there never being any alternate versions of yourself is correct...who knows.
Yh, but consider how long it took for 1931 to disappear after enda goes back in time. Its only like 5 minutes. So logically it should only take another 5 minutes for the ripples to catch up with Marty and Doc yet they were still around for hours afterwards.
Storywise when you consider the most recent changes to the timeline it makes sense that Riverside/JFK Drive would become a residential neighborhood as opposed to a commerical district. We can't see directly if Doc's mansion is there or not so it's possible it still burned down, he still converted the garage into a workshop, ect. However the home was back and away from the garage so it's entirely possible that it's there.....we just don't see it. Granted it doesn't explain why Doc's driveway still has painted yellow lines like it's the back of the BK parking lot but I think I have an answer for that: in this slightly altered timeline Doc is actually a much more respected member of the community now. Part of the result from this is that Doc oversees his father's property, the group that gives out the young scientist reward, ect. It's also entirely possible that with all the knowledge that Doc has that Brown Enterprises is actually a respectable business he runs out of the garage and that Doc does work for various people in town (hence the parking lines in his driveway)
Granted Doc did have his moments in the original films. For one thing there's the newspaper in part two that changed from saying he was commited to saying he was honored. However from what I could gather he was mainly considered to be the town joke. Strickland considers him dangerous, 1955 Doc in the original movie exclaims "I finally invented something that actually works!" and at the start of the game Doc (who is apparently already deeply in debt according to various bits of info in the first film) is getting foreclosed upon by the bank.
Now I understand that some folks may not like the fact that Telltale didn't take the time and effort to make the area around Doc's house look 100% like the film. However when you look at it from a story standpoint it all actually starts to make sense (Key to the City, able to afford living there, now a residential neighborhood, ect)
Yeah, I agree...this is a bit of a paradox. If there is a new version of Doc in this timeline, there should be a new version of Marty as well, one who knew that Doc stayed on in the present after the events of BTTF3...and one who presumably didn't have to travel back to 1931 in the first place.
This is one of those insoluble paradoxes...kinda like the tombstone one in BTTF3. If there is no tombstone in 1955 for Marty to find, then he wont go back to 1885 to save Doc and will instead return to 1985. Assuming this, when 'our' Marty returns to 1985 at the end of the movie, there should be another Marty around, one who had no reason to travel to 1885 and so directly returned to 1985. But there isn't.
The best solution I can come up with is that Marty simply disappeared on May 14th 1986 in the new timeline, because that was the moment he travelled back in another timeline.
I think that from Parker's POV, or the POV of any other native of 1931, Marty and Doc would be the ones who disappear, because that was the point at which they had been shifted into another (now non-existant) timeline.
That doesn't make any sense. If Hill Valley had already been saved 55 years ago the they would just finish talking to Parker and return to the future, everything having been wrapped up nicely.
Yeah I know it is difficult to understand...I guess the best way to figure it out is to envision a meta-time fourth dimensional framework of some time...as per which, there is a 'current' active timeline, which is the only one in existence until changed, but that somewhere within this framework, events and individuals from erased timelines are still 'remembered' by the universe...and it is from this theoretical meta-time 'Limbo' that time traveller's appear from in newer iterations of the timeline, if their own timelines have been erased.
Consider Lone Pine Old Biff from 2015. At the time Marty is observing his meeting with his younger self, the 'A' timeline is the 'current' future of 1955, and thus Biff comes from a timeline which no longer exists...well, in order to rationalise where he may have come from now, one can assume he emerges from this meta-time dimension. I'm not advocating the parallel dimensions theory, I'm just explaining an abstract fourth dimensional framework that may explain how stuff from previous timelines that the newer timelines are dependent on can still temporarily exist to avoid paradoxes.
So, once we assume the existence of this Limbo, one can imagine that from the new timeline's POV, Marty and Doc disappear into it, because 'originally' in meta-time, they were shifted to a new timeline; much like how, Old Biff emerges from this Limbo because 'originally' in meta-time, he arrived from the then-current LP future.
Ok, I see where you're coming from. But you can never really tell which version of Marty and Doc will disappear. To me it makes more sense that the version of Marty and Doc that went to 1876 would disappear as they left 1876 because it would stop any paradoxes from occurring. Unless when they arrived in 1876 they came from the meta-time dimension, then they're wouldn't any paradoxes.
About the tombstone in the 3rd movie...maybe it will exist for a brief period of time, until the time-stream catch up with it...and it would have lasted long enough for Marty to see the tombstone. Maybe if the marty of 1955 had waited a little longer he would have saw the tombstone dissapear? But he didn't.
About the other Marty that should exist at the end of the game....
Maybe he also traveled to 1931 in a simmilar way of the beginning of the game? I mean, somehow the alternate Delorean, the one sended by the Doc in jail, arrives at this new 1986. This Marty has no way of knowing that he is helping other version of Doc and jumps in (while his real doc was in 1931 making the book although never getting in trouble) Then this Doc would arrive normally to 1986 but he can't find Marty. He fears something wrong happened with the time-stream, and after the key ceremonie and looking at the newspaper clip, he finds Marty in 1931...although it's a sligthly different Marty.
For a theory it's a bit untidy i agree....
Well, its not just a question of the tombstone fading away after Marty goes back...if Marty prevents Doc's death, the tombstone would never even EXIST.
Of course, you could go along with the 'echo theory' and assume that the tombstone temporarily came into existence the second Doc was sent back to 1885, and later faded from existence when Marty went back...basically, its temporary existence was to ensure its non-existence...kinda like how Lone Pine Old Biff temporarily exists in 1955 to ensure his own future non-existence in the 'A' timeline...its not a theory which makes a whole lot of sense, but it could be one way to easily explain away the paradox.
The problem I have with the Delorean coming to pick up Marty in the new timeline is-if Marty was hanging around Doc's garage in the new timeline, and the Delorean suddenly showed up, would Marty suddenly wonder where the hell it came from, since he knows that both Doc and the Delorean are safely in 1986? For that matter, wouldn't Doc be home at the time, and wouldn't he wonder where the Delorean suddenly showed up from? Okay, even assuming Doc was busy at the whole key ceremony thing and Marty was hanging around Doc's house alone, you would think he would wait to consult Doc about it rather than just jump into a duplicate of the Delorean which suddenly popped out of nowhere driverless with a duplicate of Einstien. And even if Marty did impulsively want to return to the past instantly to save Doc (whichever version of him it was), where would he start? Okay, maybe Edna's shoe would lead him to Edna, but Edna would not be the b#tchy old woman she was in the original 1986, but a somewhat more polite and calm woman and Kid Tannen's wife. And any 1931 newspaper she had would not contain any article about Carl Sagan being killed, because Marty's alternate self has already saved the other version of Doc in the past of this timeline...so this Marty has no way of knowing that he has to go back to 1931...
Season 2, will be about how to get the tree back to the sidewalk. First they will have to find out what year the tree was planted, who planted it, and what caused it to move to the street.
Sometimes tree's can really be annoying lol
But the way i see it, Doc (the new one, the one living in 86) was in 1931 making the book for Marty, when the delorean shows up. Let's say that Marty knew this, that Doc is in 1931 doing something, when suddenly the Delorean appears and obviously he doesn't have a reason to suspect that it's another Delorean from another Doc, he would think Doc got in trouble (since he knew he was away in time) and he would jump in.
Since Doc, Einstein, and the Delorean were away from 1986 when this other versions of Einstein and the Delorean shows up, he can't see anything unusual. Besides the fact that the Doc is missing.
But still wouldn't know to go back to 1931 because the newspaper wouldn't exist. If Marty knew that Doc had gone back to 1931 in the first place that would ruin Doc's surprise and then he would have ran into another version of himself (a duplicate) because that was the original Marty saving Doc's. That could have caused some serious confusion.
As for the tombstone, I don't think the echo situation would apply here. I thought it only worked when the echo came from a another time in the time machine originally eg. Old biff in 1955
Here how I figure the new alternate timeline.
Marty was hanging out at Docs garage sale, while Doc was currently away.
He hears the Delorean arriving, but when he look at it Doc isn't in it.
He still has the shoe and Einstein, so he will arrive at Ednas place.
He still finds a newspaper that tells him that Carl Sagan was arrested.
(Not the one claiming that he was killed obviously)
So he travels back, saves Doc yadda yadda yadda.
Back in 1986 Doc has to go to the ceremony that gives him the key to the city.
He looks at the old newspaper.
Realizing that it is from Marty he travels back, but of course has no idea why Marty went back to 1931, since they just left there.
I don't think it would ruin Doc's surprise if he argued any other reasson to travel to 1931. But even if he didn't know, like the other poster said, the newspaper with Sagan detention still exists and Edna could be much more helpfull now.
About the new doc running with his other version, that didn't happen. This new Doc could have traveld to any other day/month other than the arsonist incident. The older version of Doc traveled to that exact date because he also wanted to know who the arsonist was (and that finally lead him to trouble). But this new Doc knows that the arsonist was Edna, so he has no reason to travel to that exact same date (and thus risking an encounter with his other self).
thats not wat im saying im saying that doc shoulden't be there in the first place because of hill valley burning down