I can see myself enjoying this in a way that would totally offend fans of the original series. King's Quest flavor with LucasArts design, a total abomination and an offense to Sierra fans. And something I'd actually buy.
The reaction here reminds me of the Fallout 3 debate thing, where original fans hated the "sequel" and mainstream audiences liked it.
You guys would be the unfortunate minority in this situation. King's Quest, as an IP, still resonates somewhat with people and is an attention grabber. Random FPS lovers have heard of it on another forum I frequent that has NOTHING to do with adventure games.
A King's Quest like the originals is probably not commercially viable, or well, it is at least more risky a proposition in a market that is already small by nature (point and click). The name and general "flavor" has potential to sell and automatically is going to draw attention.
I'm not so much an anti-Sierra person (someone who goes around hating Sierra and thinks anyone who likes it is stupid, I just say I really don't like the design of their games in general - but people obviously can validly disagree) as I am a non-Sierra fan.
I expect most of you people furious at the game WILL buy it simply because its King Quest and because of curiosity. I can see why you'd be pissed and am sorry for you in some regards - my "baby" long ago was Monkey Island and a sequel in the style of Sierra would've been unhappy news. (I would've been excited anyway, actually, but still.)
Controversy sells too. Good move by Telltale I think, whether you think its Kotick-esque or not.
It'd either be them doing what they do well or their best attempt to do an imitation of someone else's style, while at the same time rushing the game out as soon as humanly possible.
I think episodic gaming and "great" quality don't really match well together. I think you can churn out a lot of good games, sometimes really good episodes. As a general whole it leaves to be designed to complete projects.
I loved TOMI though, I disagree with MI on that, I think that was a very good game. I liked it better than Secret even.
I'm not a fan of KQ as a whole (I've only played 5,6 &7 and 6 is my favorite adventure game of all time and the other 2 i felt were mediocre), but I have to agree with the naysayers on this. I think when all this is over and done, 2 years from now people will prefer 'the silver lining' over Telltale's 'tales of Graham and Alexander's super easy puzzle funtime hour' or whatever as their canon.
Tales wasn't horrible, but it wasn't as good as I was hoping. There were some surprises that pleased me, but on the whole.....oh I don't know....it was decent I guess. Maybe I'm just in a very negative mood right now.
But the fact remains that Telltale have decreased their quality not increased.
Huh, that is an unexpected announcement indeed. But I remain cautiously optimistic that Telltale can pull it off;and even if not it's a must buy for curiosity reason alone Also, since for pretty much all of their series they at least consulted the original creators, I think there's much chance Roberta Williams will be involved in a way. Plus, can Telltale do much worse to the series than Sierra themselves did with KQ8?
And re: this all "Sierra design philosophy". What exactly is that? Sierra had quite a lot of designers working there, each with their own philosophy. Furthermore, that philosophy evolved, and actually evolved towards story-driven model - which King's Quest series itself is a good example of. KQ6 is not *quite* the same as KQ1.
I'm not a fan of KQ as a whole (I've only played 5,6 &7 and 6 is my favorite adventure game of all time and the other 2 i felt were mediocre), but I have to agree with the naysayers on this. I think when all this is over and done, 2 years from now people will prefer 'the silver lining' over Telltale's 'tales of Graham and Alexander's super easy puzzle funtime hour' or whatever as their canon.
Which people? Hardcore KQ fans or the widespread, mainstream audience that ALL developers hope to reach?
What does everyone think are the things that make KQ, KQ? The core things about the series that make it what it is?
Tales wasn't horrible, but it wasn't as good as I was hoping. There were some surprises that pleased me, but on the whole.....oh I don't know....it was decent I guess. Maybe I'm just in a very negative mood right now.
I think you overrated it and have now overreacted and underrated it as a result.
...:V
But the fact remains that Telltale have decreased their quality not increased.
Yeah I'm not interested in 90% of their current games or announced licenses right now.
tooth
Which people? Hardcore KQ fans or the widespread, mainstream audience that ALL developers hope to reach?
Yeah the official hardline stance is that it's going to be for the hardcore audience too but i doubt that (sorry telltale, I love you anyway).
This is more using the ip to sell a new, "bastardized" vision to a new audience. Which could very well be good, but probably not to the hardcore original lovers.
Rather Dashing, who is apparently offended at the idea of Telltale having the IP itself, is not going to like it.
Telltale used to be very vocal about not liking and not wanting to include inventory combinations in their games, but they tried to incorporate them into ToMI anyway, because they felt they were an iconic part of the franchise. Hopefully they'll feel the same way about the deaths and dead ends in King's Quest.
What does everyone think are the things that make KQ, KQ? The core things about the series that make it what it is?
Difficult puzzles, deaths, dead ends, corny puns, inordinately polite and morally upright protagonists, random references to fairy tales and Clash of the Titans, and overall Roberta Williams-y charming campiness.
Edit: I enjoy all of the above, by the way. That wasn't supposed to sound negative if it did.
Good lord. This place has turned into a hate fest. I'm kinda glad I don't frequent the forums as much.
The fact that Telltale got this IP amuses me. I'd love to see what they do with it. If it sucks, it sucks. It's not like they're rewriting your childhood. Good grief.
I've pretty much enjoyed what Telltale has done so far. No, it hasn't always been perfect, but you'd be damn sure they'd do a better job than Activision ever will.
Yeah the Sierra fans have been totally fair and level headed, other than RD, who is simply a passionate and opinionated man. Sometimes it's OK to have a negative opinion.
I'll buy the game and I'll see if I and everyone else is wrong and give a fair shot.
Difficult puzzles, deaths, dead ends, corny puns, inordinately polite and morally upright protagonists, random references to fairy tales and Clash of the Titans, and overall Roberta Williams-y charming campiness.
Do you think TTG would respect at least some of those things and try to stay true to the source material? Whilst trying to make a commercially viable game, of course.
I do, personally. OK, TOMI was clearly easier that previous MI games but it felt like MI to me, just as BttF feels like the movies.
Reading the OP, it seems I'm the only one still on topic.
Sierra's dead for a reason. Did you guys even play the last few entries of the Quest series? Even Telltale's worst titles beat it hands down.
I personally never liked the KQ series much after 3. I'd actually enjoy a complete different take on the series. (ie. a non Sierra one)
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Sierra games and still rate the SQ series as my favorite after Monkey Island, but there's a reason those games are gone. Heck, if it wasn't for Telltale, adventure games would probably be a LOT more niche than they currently are.
They should have a "Stupidly Unfair Mode" in KQ's Reboot where it adds in all the horribly unfair/illogical puzzles that everyone remembers, like that Rumpelstiltskin thing and the part with the beanstalk, and generally hard obtuse "fair ones" like the spellbook in 3.
Sierra's dead for a reason. Did you guys even play the last few entries of the Quest series? Even Telltale's worst titles beat it hands down.
6 was really good. A classic. I liked 7 but I'm in the minority. 8 wasn't really KQ.
I actually like each KQ's game less and less as you go down numerically from six on...
I was really pleased with ToMI... so I think that TTG CAN take a classic game and make it different while respecting the original...
I am really looking forward to seeing what they will do with KQ... But since it IS one of those games I was obsessed with as a kid a large part of me is worried about the outcome.... But honestly I think its in good hands... I mean what would you rather?
also I think that both Lucasarts and Sierra had their hits and misses... even in the glory days..
I'd rather see them be bold and do their own thing with it and make something really good and daring than try to half-step it and try to please both crowds and make no one happy.
Sierra's dead for a reason. Did you guys even play the last few entries of the Quest series? Even Telltale's worst titles beat it hands down.
KQ6 is the greatest game of all time.
KQ7, I enjoyed, but didn't love. Oddly enough, it had the most Telltale/LucasArts-esque design--chapter system, no dead ends, and the deaths were immediately undone.
And KQ8 just shows what happens when they try to reach out to a different genre's demographic.
I say this as both a Telltale fan and a KQ fan. I don't know if this marriage will work, but I look forward to seeing the result, good or bad.
I do, personally. OK, TOMI was clearly easier that previous MI games but it felt like MI to me, just as BttF feels like the movies.
You're talking merely about story here. Feeling like the original is not enough. The game mechanics as well as the story is what made these games so loved.
Sierra's dead for a reason. Did you guys even play the last few entries of the Quest series? Even Telltale's worst titles beat it hands down.
I personally never liked the KQ series much after 3. I'd actually enjoy a complete different take on the series. (ie. a non Sierra one)
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Sierra games and still rate the SQ series as my favorite after Monkey Island, but there's a reason those games are gone. Heck, if it wasn't for Telltale, adventure games would probably be a LOT more niche than they currently are.
Yes, Sierra is dead for a reason. And that reason is Ken Williams sold it. He had a very specific method of management. Keeping small teams for projects and one single person with full creative control. After he sold it, the suits started running things and the whole process broke down. Projects were mishandled, everything was authorized and given the go ahead based on all the wrong reasons, and the good people who worked there that did so much for the games that were developed quit because of it. So yes, Sierra is gone but not for the reasons you may say.
Here's a quote by Ken Williams:
"From the beginning, I recognized that Sierra was in a different industry than most. We were selling creativity. Customers would forgive any sin as long as they were surprised and entertained. I had a rule in the early days of Sierra that if someone had worked for another company within the computer game business, we didn't want them. It was important to me that we do things our way, and our way alone. Sharing employees with other companies meant that roughly the same products could be bought from anybody. I wanted Sierra to produce products and technology that couldn't be found anywhere EXCEPT from Sierra. Even within Sierra I had rules about not allowing too many developers in one location. I wanted the independent thought that came from a small development group. My job was to span the different groups, and spread technology, when it made sense, but not do anything to hamper a group's creativity or the personality of the products."
Just have a special Sierra Superfan Mode, turning it on enables:
- No railings on any edges, and some paths are narrowed drastically. Falling off the edge either kills you or ruins an essential item.
- Dying (from the numerous possible ways) takes you back to your last manual save, instead of resetting to an auto-save position
- Items that are intuitive solutions to a puzzle are replaced with Sierra-logic alternatives.
- Dead end options for limited use items, bridges you can only walk on three times and one-time events are added that allow the game to end up in an unwinnable state.
Ugh, this is starting to remind me of all the things that frustrated me about Zack & Wiki.
Just have a special Sierra Superfan Mode, turning it on enables:
- No railings on any edges, and some paths are narrowed drastically. Falling off the edge either kills you or ruins an essential item.
- Dying (from the numerous possible ways) takes you back to your last manual save, instead of resetting to an auto-save position
- Items that are intuitive solutions to a puzzle are replaced with Sierra-logic alternatives.
- Dead end options for limited use items, bridges you can only walk on three times and one-time events are added that allow the game to end up in an unwinnable state.
Ugh, this is starting to remind me of all the things that frustrated me about Zack & Wiki.
Ugh, the lengths at which this post completely misses the point are shocking.
Ugh, the lengths at which this post completely misses the point are shocking.
Please, tell me what was missing from my post? The way I see it, the only things that people want that probably won't happen are poor design choices that they're looking at through nostalgia-colored glasses. I say if they want to have to open the menu every screen just to manually save, let them.
Dead ends are only fun to some people, so I don't see why they shouldn't be optional. Even FPS designers have changed to stop games from getting into unwinnable states (much to the annoyance of some old school fans of that genre as well).
The rest of the stuff. Fairy tale references, corny puns, morally upright heroes (see Paw Dugans's King's Quest retrspective for a different view on that) and general campiness are likely to return. I understand that people are pessimistic about Telltale being able to pull them off, but I fail to see the point in coming back to these forums time after time if you hate the work that TTG does.
Also those decrying Telltale for their recent games seem to be forgetting that Dave Grossman, Mike Stemmle, Chuck Jordan were all behind their favourite adventure games of the past.. Someone like Jake Rodkin was a fan just like us.. I have a lot of faith that they will do justice to King's Quest.
Have you read the quote by Dave Grossman regarding classic Sierra game design?
I've been doing a lot of hating tonight and I guess I should balance that out a little by saying I can't imagine a product of theirs not doing well. No matter what I think about it, Telltale's King's Quest reboot WILL sell. Lots. And that's a good thing, given that it would show interest in classic adventures...whether Telltale does it right or not, there are always other companies out there that ActiVision could license the IPs to (if they ever get the chance that Telltale has had).
Have you read the quote by Dave Grossman regarding classic Sierra game design?
I've been doing a lot of hating tonight and I guess I should balance that out a little by saying I can't imagine a product of theirs not doing well. No matter what I think about it, Telltale's King's Quest reboot WILL sell. Lots. And that's a good thing, given that it would show interest in classic adventures...whether Telltale does it right or not, there are always other companies out there that ActiVision could license the IPs to (if they ever get the chance that Telltale has had).
We'll just see what happens.
Maybe Dave won't work on this title? One thing you can say about Telltale is they've always been true to the series. I expect them to do the same with King's Quest. ToMI had inventory combination puzzles because people expected that. i'm sure King's Quest will be a lot harder than something more mainstream like Back to the Future.
Maybe Dave won't work on this title? One thing you can say about Telltale is they've always been true to the series. I expect them to do the same with King's Quest. ToMI had inventory combination puzzles because people expected that. i'm sure King's Quest will be a lot harder than something more mainstream like Back to the Future.
King's Quest and the other Sierra games were the opposite of the Lucasarts philosphy that Telltale seem to follow. The game all had death scenes, hard puzzles and weak stories.
I don't want a watered down Sierra game.
Therefore my interest in this is.....
Dude, chill. Your characters CAN DIE in Jurassic Park (impaled, crushed, eaten, squished under debris, 'football kicked' by Triceratops, etc).
I bet you'll be able to die in several hilarious ways in KQ as well.
I'm fascinated by the idea of rebooting the series - but are we sticking with the royal family or new characters? Would this KQ season be five expanded episodes of Graham's first adventures through Daventry and beyond?
If you were to reboot KQ1, you could take certain parts from the original game and turn them into entire episodes. The quest for the three treasures could be stretched out over five episodes and even include him rescuing Valanice at some point. I'd certainly like to see Telltale's take on the giant in the clouds. You could turn that into a whole "Jack and the Beanstalk" episode where Graham gets to go into the giant's castle and all the puzzles would be centered around giant objects. Or have a leprechaun episode where Graham's the giant in the land of little people. There's possibilities here! Even my imagination's racing now. I want in. Somebody hire me.
Comments
How do you know it will have a Lucasarts design?
A King's Quest like the originals is probably not commercially viable, or well, it is at least more risky a proposition in a market that is already small by nature (point and click). The name and general "flavor" has potential to sell and automatically is going to draw attention.
I'm not so much an anti-Sierra person (someone who goes around hating Sierra and thinks anyone who likes it is stupid, I just say I really don't like the design of their games in general - but people obviously can validly disagree) as I am a non-Sierra fan.
I expect most of you people furious at the game WILL buy it simply because its King Quest and because of curiosity. I can see why you'd be pissed and am sorry for you in some regards - my "baby" long ago was Monkey Island and a sequel in the style of Sierra would've been unhappy news. (I would've been excited anyway, actually, but still.)
Controversy sells too. Good move by Telltale I think, whether you think its Kotick-esque or not.
Have TTG actually used the word, do we know? Or was it an IGNorant comment?
It'd either be them doing what they do well or their best attempt to do an imitation of someone else's style, while at the same time rushing the game out as soon as humanly possible.
I think episodic gaming and "great" quality don't really match well together. I think you can churn out a lot of good games, sometimes really good episodes. As a general whole it leaves to be designed to complete projects.
I loved TOMI though, I disagree with MI on that, I think that was a very good game. I liked it better than Secret even.
Starting off with the ninth game of the story for a mostly unaware audience is dangerous terrority.
They should use the setting and come up with an original story though, not a retelling.
But the fact remains that Telltale have decreased their quality not increased.
And re: this all "Sierra design philosophy". What exactly is that? Sierra had quite a lot of designers working there, each with their own philosophy. Furthermore, that philosophy evolved, and actually evolved towards story-driven model - which King's Quest series itself is a good example of. KQ6 is not *quite* the same as KQ1.
Which people? Hardcore KQ fans or the widespread, mainstream audience that ALL developers hope to reach?
What does everyone think are the things that make KQ, KQ? The core things about the series that make it what it is?
...:V
Yeah I'm not interested in 90% of their current games or announced licenses right now.
tooth Yeah the official hardline stance is that it's going to be for the hardcore audience too but i doubt that (sorry telltale, I love you anyway).
This is more using the ip to sell a new, "bastardized" vision to a new audience. Which could very well be good, but probably not to the hardcore original lovers.
Rather Dashing, who is apparently offended at the idea of Telltale having the IP itself, is not going to like it.
And I can't do nothing but agree with him.
Still, his rage was delicious.
Difficult puzzles, deaths, dead ends, corny puns, inordinately polite and morally upright protagonists, random references to fairy tales and Clash of the Titans, and overall Roberta Williams-y charming campiness.
Edit: I enjoy all of the above, by the way. That wasn't supposed to sound negative if it did.
The fact that Telltale got this IP amuses me. I'd love to see what they do with it. If it sucks, it sucks. It's not like they're rewriting your childhood. Good grief.
I've pretty much enjoyed what Telltale has done so far. No, it hasn't always been perfect, but you'd be damn sure they'd do a better job than Activision ever will.
Sierra's dead. Deal with it.
I'll buy the game and I'll see if I and everyone else is wrong and give a fair shot.
Do you think TTG would respect at least some of those things and try to stay true to the source material? Whilst trying to make a commercially viable game, of course.
I do, personally. OK, TOMI was clearly easier that previous MI games but it felt like MI to me, just as BttF feels like the movies.
Sierra's dead for a reason. Did you guys even play the last few entries of the Quest series? Even Telltale's worst titles beat it hands down.
I personally never liked the KQ series much after 3. I'd actually enjoy a complete different take on the series. (ie. a non Sierra one)
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Sierra games and still rate the SQ series as my favorite after Monkey Island, but there's a reason those games are gone. Heck, if it wasn't for Telltale, adventure games would probably be a LOT more niche than they currently are.
6 was really good. A classic. I liked 7 but I'm in the minority. 8 wasn't really KQ.
I actually like each KQ's game less and less as you go down numerically from six on...
I am really looking forward to seeing what they will do with KQ... But since it IS one of those games I was obsessed with as a kid a large part of me is worried about the outcome.... But honestly I think its in good hands... I mean what would you rather?
also I think that both Lucasarts and Sierra had their hits and misses... even in the glory days..
KQ6 is the greatest game of all time.
KQ7, I enjoyed, but didn't love. Oddly enough, it had the most Telltale/LucasArts-esque design--chapter system, no dead ends, and the deaths were immediately undone.
And KQ8 just shows what happens when they try to reach out to a different genre's demographic.
I say this as both a Telltale fan and a KQ fan. I don't know if this marriage will work, but I look forward to seeing the result, good or bad.
You're talking merely about story here. Feeling like the original is not enough. The game mechanics as well as the story is what made these games so loved.
Yes, Sierra is dead for a reason. And that reason is Ken Williams sold it. He had a very specific method of management. Keeping small teams for projects and one single person with full creative control. After he sold it, the suits started running things and the whole process broke down. Projects were mishandled, everything was authorized and given the go ahead based on all the wrong reasons, and the good people who worked there that did so much for the games that were developed quit because of it. So yes, Sierra is gone but not for the reasons you may say.
Here's a quote by Ken Williams:
"From the beginning, I recognized that Sierra was in a different industry than most. We were selling creativity. Customers would forgive any sin as long as they were surprised and entertained. I had a rule in the early days of Sierra that if someone had worked for another company within the computer game business, we didn't want them. It was important to me that we do things our way, and our way alone. Sharing employees with other companies meant that roughly the same products could be bought from anybody. I wanted Sierra to produce products and technology that couldn't be found anywhere EXCEPT from Sierra. Even within Sierra I had rules about not allowing too many developers in one location. I wanted the independent thought that came from a small development group. My job was to span the different groups, and spread technology, when it made sense, but not do anything to hamper a group's creativity or the personality of the products."
- No railings on any edges, and some paths are narrowed drastically. Falling off the edge either kills you or ruins an essential item.
- Dying (from the numerous possible ways) takes you back to your last manual save, instead of resetting to an auto-save position
- Items that are intuitive solutions to a puzzle are replaced with Sierra-logic alternatives.
- Dead end options for limited use items, bridges you can only walk on three times and one-time events are added that allow the game to end up in an unwinnable state.
Ugh, this is starting to remind me of all the things that frustrated me about Zack & Wiki.
Ugh, the lengths at which this post completely misses the point are shocking.
Please, tell me what was missing from my post? The way I see it, the only things that people want that probably won't happen are poor design choices that they're looking at through nostalgia-colored glasses. I say if they want to have to open the menu every screen just to manually save, let them.
Dead ends are only fun to some people, so I don't see why they shouldn't be optional. Even FPS designers have changed to stop games from getting into unwinnable states (much to the annoyance of some old school fans of that genre as well).
The rest of the stuff. Fairy tale references, corny puns, morally upright heroes (see Paw Dugans's King's Quest retrspective for a different view on that) and general campiness are likely to return. I understand that people are pessimistic about Telltale being able to pull them off, but I fail to see the point in coming back to these forums time after time if you hate the work that TTG does.
I don't hate the work they do, it's just disappointing. And I'm only sticking around to see how this ends because I do have a shred of hope.
I've been doing a lot of hating tonight and I guess I should balance that out a little by saying I can't imagine a product of theirs not doing well. No matter what I think about it, Telltale's King's Quest reboot WILL sell. Lots. And that's a good thing, given that it would show interest in classic adventures...whether Telltale does it right or not, there are always other companies out there that ActiVision could license the IPs to (if they ever get the chance that Telltale has had).
We'll just see what happens.
Maybe Dave won't work on this title? One thing you can say about Telltale is they've always been true to the series. I expect them to do the same with King's Quest. ToMI had inventory combination puzzles because people expected that. i'm sure King's Quest will be a lot harder than something more mainstream like Back to the Future.
We can only hope....and wait.
I think more information on this will be released at E3
That is, if any info isn't released at PAX East first.
Dude, chill. Your characters CAN DIE in Jurassic Park (impaled, crushed, eaten, squished under debris, 'football kicked' by Triceratops, etc).
I bet you'll be able to die in several hilarious ways in KQ as well.
http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/games.html
Definetly worth a look if you're a kings quest fan.
If you were to reboot KQ1, you could take certain parts from the original game and turn them into entire episodes. The quest for the three treasures could be stretched out over five episodes and even include him rescuing Valanice at some point. I'd certainly like to see Telltale's take on the giant in the clouds. You could turn that into a whole "Jack and the Beanstalk" episode where Graham gets to go into the giant's castle and all the puzzles would be centered around giant objects. Or have a leprechaun episode where Graham's the giant in the land of little people. There's possibilities here! Even my imagination's racing now. I want in. Somebody hire me.