King's Quest 3 redux is starting to grow on me. The only AGDI title I didn't enjoy playing was KQ2+. However, both QG2 and KQ3 are fun. Perhaps it is because AGDI stuck with the main story and added new content that was present in the manual or Greek mythology,
I like how they added the journal entries from the previous slave boy.
I agree. I think that the more low key fleshing out of the game works much better at freshening up the feel of the original than the complete rewrite of KQ2+ (though I really liked that, too.) And yeah, gradually uncovering the activities of the previous Gwydion was a stroke of genius, in my opinion. It perfectly fleshes out that bit of back story while also adding a great sense of intrigue and urgency to Alexander's current plight.
I agree. I think that the more low key fleshing out of the game works much better at freshening up the feel of the original than the complete rewrite of KQ2+ (though I really liked that, too.) And yeah, gradually uncovering the activities of the previous Gwydion was a stroke of genius, in my opinion. It perfectly fleshes out that bit of back story while also adding a great sense of intrigue and urgency to Alexander's current plight.
I think KQ2+ kind of "TSLed" the series. While they kept the tone of the classic games (unlike TSL), they attempted to tie EVERY SINGLE GAME together by shoehorning in some grand, ''epic'' conspiracy/prophecy going back 1000 years. I don't feel there needs to be a conspiracy, or a prophecy, or any of that crap. I don't even feel we need to revisit the (only mentioned in one line in KQ6) Black Cloak Society. Each KQ game was a relatively self contained story, with only a low key tie to the previous games. Even in KQIV, you didn't need to play KQIII to understand the intro.
Fair enough. I'm sorry. I'm just saying that if you liked the feel of the old VGA KQ games, you owe it to yourself to at least give AGDI's games a try. The just-released KQ3Redux in particular is probably the best fan-made game yet, by any group.
Maybe I will at some point. Unfortunately I have too little time for playing these days and at the moment Jane Jensen's Gray Matter is occupying all of that time.
I think KQ2+ kind of "TSLed" the series. While they kept the tone of the classic games (unlike TSL), they attempted to tie EVERY SINGLE GAME together by shoehorning in some grand, ''epic'' conspiracy/prophecy going back 1000 years. I don't feel there needs to be a conspiracy, or a prophecy, or any of that crap. I don't even feel we need to revisit the (only mentioned in one line in KQ6) Black Cloak Society. Each KQ game was a relatively self contained story, with only a low key tie to the previous games. Even in KQIV, you didn't need to play KQIII to understand the intro.
I never understood why some people try to link all the King's Quest baddies, because IMHO it's just silly. There are some real connections like family ties between Manannan and Mordack, but most of the connections were either invented by the writers of King's Quest Companion or fans. In similar manner Space Quest Companion tries to link baddies like Elmo Pug and Raemes T. Quirk to Sludge Vohaul.
In both cases it's completely unnecessary and stories work better if baddies have no connection with each other, like the game designers intended it would be. Roberta and many fans have completely different views about the Black Cloak Society's importance. Personally I feel that Companions and other material like that are bit uncanonical.
Maybe I will at some point. Unfortunately I have too little time for playing these days and at the moment Jane Jensen's Gray Matter is occupying all of that time.
I never understood why some people try to link all the King's Quest baddies, because IMHO it's just silly. There are some real connections like family ties between Manannan and Mordack, but most of the connections were either invented by the writers of King's Quest Companion or fans. In similar manner Space Quest Companion tries to link baddies like Elmo Pug and Raemes T. Quirk to Sludge Vohaul.
In both cases it's completely unnecessary and stories work better if baddies have no connection with each other, like the game designers intended it would be. Roberta and many fans have completely different views about the Black Cloak Society's importance. Personally I feel that Companions and other material like that are bit uncanonical.
Roberta didn't even know there was about the Black Cloak Society until years later when fans brought it up. She recalled briefly musing over the idea of an organization which would've had ONLY Alhazred, Mordack and Manannan early in co-designing KQ6 with Jane Jensen, and Jensen later included it in the finished KQ6. It was never something she seemed to take that seriously, and note that neither KQ7 nor KQ8 so much as mentioned it.
KQ2+ and TSL seem to want to tie every single villain and event of the series to the Black Cloak Society, and weave the games tightly together, and I think having all these people and events tied together actually limits the possibilities for the story going forward and makes the universe of the series that much smaller--much like Lucas did with the Star Wars prequels (IE, Anakin creating C-3PO, meeting Boba Fett as a child and making him a Clone, having Yoda fight alongside Chewbacca in the Clone Wars, etc)
I think KQ2+ kind of "TSLed" the series. While they kept the tone of the classic games (unlike TSL), they attempted to tie EVERY SINGLE GAME together by shoehorning in some grand, ''epic'' conspiracy/prophecy going back 1000 years. I don't feel there needs to be a conspiracy, or a prophecy, or any of that crap. I don't even feel we need to revisit the (only mentioned in one line in KQ6) Black Cloak Society. Each KQ game was a relatively self contained story, with only a low key tie to the previous games. Even in KQIV, you didn't need to play KQIII to understand the intro.
This! That is a big reason why I dislike Kq2+. It tries to tie everything together like your average fanfiction. Hopefully I don't offend anyone, but I really didn't like how AGDI handle the kq2 remake and cringe if they make an official Kq game like kq2+. the whole game feels as if the developer tries to shoehorn every Kq mythology in 1 game. the game felt so convoluted with the shark fighting the mer people, the wolf men vs vampires, and the black cloak society fighting Graham. the game felt like it was trying to be this epic, grand quest. it felt too dark for me.
Roberta didn't even know there was about the Black Cloak Society until years later when fans brought it up. She recalled briefly musing over the idea of an organization which would've had ONLY Alhazred, Mordack and Manannan early in co-designing KQ6 with Jane Jensen, and Jensen later included it in the finished KQ6. It was never something she seemed to take that seriously, and note that neither KQ7 nor KQ8 so much as mentioned it.
KQ2+ and TSL seem to want to tie every single villain and event of the series to the Black Cloak Society, and weave the games tightly together, and I think having all these people and events tied together actually limits the possibilities for the story going forward and makes the universe of the series that much smaller--much like Lucas did with the Star Wars prequels (IE, Anakin creating C-3PO, meeting Boba Fett as a child and making him a Clone, having Yoda fight alongside Chewbacca in the Clone Wars, etc)
It also limits the writers' ability to be original and creative. Most fanfiction tries to try everything together. I would like to see new stories with unrelated
villains like the original kq2.
Tying everything up worked horribly with the metal gear solid games. By mgs4, you find out that everything from the three games were staged to try taking down some computer that is controlling everything; the story gotten so stupid and convoluted that it didn't make any sense.
I'm happy to see, that I'm not the only one, who thinks AGDI went a bit too far with KQ2 remake. It's a fun game, I'm not denying it, but it does take things a bit too far.
I do understand, why they did so much re-writing tough, as the original has very little plot to begin with, but a bit less would have been more aproriate.
Personally I feel that Companions and other material like that are bit uncanonical.
It may not be canon, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. I'm one of those geeks who craves continuity and connections in a series, and the Black Cloak Society was the big unanswered question of the King's Quest saga. I love seeing each and every fan interpretation of how things tie together.
I'm also a Tolkien fan, because I love when a fictional world feels like a huge, expansive, coherent universe. One of the things the King's Quest Companion does well is add a sense of history to the world of Daventry, which to me, gives the games a lot more depth. Fan theories that tie the games together are just taking that one step further.
I understand that theories about connections aren't going to be enjoyed by everyone, and that's fine. Some people prefer the more standalone nature of each game in the original series. But I enjoy watching fans take on the challenge of seeing how things could possibly connect, and even when the results are far-fetched, I still find the ride very entertaining.
It may not be canon, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. I'm one of those geeks who craves continuity and connections in a series, and the Black Cloak Society was the big unanswered question of the King's Quest saga. I love seeing each and every fan interpretation of how things tie together.
I'm also a Tolkien fan, because I love when a fictional world feels like a huge, expansive, coherent universe. One of the things the King's Quest Companion does well is add a sense of history to the world of Daventry, which to me, gives the games a lot more depth. Fan theories that tie the games together are just taking that one step further.
I understand that theories about connections aren't going to be enjoyed by everyone, and that's fine. Some people prefer the more standalone nature of each game in the original series. But I enjoy watching fans take on the challenge of seeing how things could possibly connect, and even when the results are far-fetched, I still find the ride very entertaining.
I don't mind if hero is always fighting against the same archnemesis, like Guybrush Threepwood is always fighting against LeChuck, or if baddies are related, like Bains brothers in original PQ trilogy, as long as it feels natural. However as nothing in the original KQ games or manuals suggests any connection between many baddies I have difficulties to adopt the concept and it feels bit forced.
Everyone has their preferences and in some level I understand your preference, but still I hope that TTG doesn't try to include some grand conspiracy with all the previous baddies into their new KQ series.
Oh, I agree that Telltale should return to a simplistic fairy tale approach. Partially because at this point, I'm having so much fun with the various fan explanations that a "canon" explanation would be a letdown for me. :P
It's interesting to gauge the various reactions about the idea of a cohesive canon as opposed to a separated canon. There seem to be an equal amount of people on either side who love KQ2+ and TSL or hate them. I personally like both approaches. The enhancements and canon tie-ins don't really bother me. It's TSL's horrible writing and immensely dark tone that turns me off, not the canon tie-ins. I liked KQ2+ before I even joined AGDI.
It's strange how extreme each opinion is, though. Usually it's either a fan wants everything to be tied together and loves KQ2+ and TSL or they LOATHE the idea of any sort of deep storyline in a KQ game altogether to the point of disliking even KQ6 for it.
It's interesting to gauge the various reactions about the idea of a cohesive canon as opposed to a separated canon. There seem to be an equal amount of people on either side who love KQ2+ and TSL or hate them. I personally like both approaches. The enhancements and canon tie-ins don't really bother me. It's TSL's horrible writing and immensely dark tone that turns me off, not the canon tie-ins. I liked KQ2+ before I even joined AGDI.
It's strange how extreme each opinion is, though. Usually it's either a fan wants everything to be tied together and loves KQ2+ and TSL or they LOATHE the idea of any sort of deep storyline in a KQ game altogether to the point of disliking even KQ6 for it.
For me, it matters that the style and tone of a non-Sierra KQ game matches the ones that are. By this, I mean that as I consider KQ5 and 6 to have the quintessential style and interface- KQ6 and 7 to have the epitome of proper tone- it matters that additional games fit the same feel.
This is why TSL falls flat. It has neither the same tone nor style of said games. It just... doesn't.
Meanwhile, AGDI's games fit perfectly with the canon. If it had been claimed that Sierra Online had made these games, noone would be able to tell otherwise. They're just that giood. IA's KQ3 is good, save for a few minor things (the voice acting for the barmaid and Guybrush, and the need to click off dialogue when speech is enabled.)
When it comes down to it, I would pay real money to buy the AGDI and IA remakes of KQ games. However, I have... apprehension... that TTG's KQ games are going to feel far more like bad fan-fiction. It's cruel that Kingdom of Sorrow is probably going to be excellent yet requires earning no profit, while TTG's KQ games may make them money while being of lesser quality.
I have no fear of Telltale's King's Quest turning out feeling like fan fiction, unlike some parts in each of the fan games. I say this with all respect for those games, whose achievements and merits are many.
I just feel that when I apply the toughest test of all - whether a game feels 100% authentically up to Sierra quality and polish, none of the fan games have passed so far, despite very valiant efforts indeed.
I personally thought the additions to the KQII remake, for example, were a mistake... I would have preferred a 1-to-1 remake. But then, here is hoping someone else will one day do just that!
(Hopefully with fully updated graphics and audio, and the ability to switch between the original and new graphics and gameplay, as with the Monkey Island remakes.)
Chyron8472, I just have a personal preference for remakes to be only that, and the juxtaposition of Roberta's (or another original designer's) original words and new ones written by someone else and added after the fact - just does not work for me as well as it clearly does for many others... No doubt I am the one who is losing out here, but I have to be true to my own feelings and reactions.
In my view, KQII was complete when Sierra released it back in the eighties, and adding new material to it in a fan remake implies there was something missing from the original, which I disagree with. It is not, in my view and to be completely frank, the place of remakers to put in their own material. That material may be terrific - but it belongs in a game all their own.
No offence is intended by any of this! And I am fine with others disagreeing with this view. Also, I would be very happy with these remakes if they also offered the option to play with the original text and story only. As for the full-blown 1-to-1 remakes with both old and new graphics, audio and gameplay, I believe these will eventually happen as top-quality commercial releases.
So in the end, we will all be happy. There will be a different KQ remake for every person on earth.
Why? The original game really felt more like it was KQ1 Part 2.
I have always seen it as an independent sequel and it took much more time to solve it than average episode of TTG's adventures. Back then we didn't have walkthroughs easily available, so solving the (sometimes obscure) puzzles took it's time. I managed to break the bridge and I had to restart once, but I consider myself lucky because I managed to avoid other dead ends.
AGDI is definitely not an amateur outfit. They have already sold at least one professional game under their Himalaya banner, and created 4 excellent remakes of Sierra titles. I think that it is likely that Telltale and Himalaya would be rivals, not unlike Sierra and LucasArts in their heyday.
That said, I do find it rather puzzling that Telltale was entrusted with the King's Quest license, considering how well AGDI handled the license, while Telltale has no previous history with it. That said, maybe this would help motivate Himalaya to begin one-upping Telltale.
I think it's all pure business decision, Telltale has proven sales record and they've been doing it in 3D since the beginning. Majority of the current gamers won't even bother to touch any 2D games which is very sad, 2D is always better than 3D especially for adventure games IMO!
I personally thought the additions to the KQII remake, for example, were a mistake... I would have preferred a 1-to-1 remake. But then, here is hoping someone else will one day do just that!
(Hopefully with fully updated graphics and audio, and the ability to switch between the original and new graphics and gameplay, as with the Monkey Island remakes.)
That won't happen because all the source code for anything Sierra-related was trashed when Sierra was first bought-out by CUC.
Why would the source codes be needed? Maybe I am missing something, but the AGI and SCI logics and all the visual and audio resources are already viewable in existing programs.
No, they aren't. AGI has been reverse engineered, sure. But SCI scripts have not. Currently it's not possible to decompile the scripts. You can only disassemble them and then manually convert them to some kind of script format that a custom compiler can convert to the SCI script format. The script notation in SCI Studio and SCI Companion is LISP-like, which as new information suggests, is not what was originally used for SCI. Since we don't even know what the language of the original code that Sierra worked with was there's no way to accurately reproduce the same effects EXACTLY as the original. ScummVM is still having trouble running scripts from SCI games with its reverse engineered engine implementation. And they only fix these problems by applying script patches. It doesn't shed any new light on how the original code would have worked.
All that is too much work for any corporation to care to put into it. LucasArts, on the other hand, has all of their source code for everything they've done archived and can easily create new implementations to the SCUMM engine like the Monkey Island Special Editions on top of the original code.
It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't bet on some kind of similar SE updates happening even unofficially, let alone officially.
Thanks, MI, I stand corrected on the SCI issue. I still think these are far from insurmountable problems, however, with professional financial backing. I believe it could be done - and it would, after all, need to be done only once. A logical place to begin would be to track down and pick the brains of some of the original programmers...
That's what the SCI community has been trying to do for years with no success. We've only just recently discovered that the original SCI notation was much close to that of SmallTalk than LISP as we had believed for over 10 years.
Brandon, I somehow managed to miss the links the first time around. This remake looks absolutely beautiful and extremely authentic! Truly impressed. Will it be a 1-to-1 remake? (Hoping it is.)
Brandon, I somehow managed to miss the links the first time around. This remake looks absolutely beautiful and extremely authentic! Truly impressed. Will it be a 1-to-1 remake? (Hoping it is.)
Yes, as much a 1:1 remake as KQ1SCI was. That's the style I'm aiming for. Re-written dialogues, reimagined backgrounds, maybe fix some strange puzzles if need be or the context of some puzzles (like the woodcutter and his wife from KQ1). All in all it'll be the same, though.
Umm, I'm glad that AGDI, POS, etc, don't have licenses to make "official" commercial KQ games... I don't really like what they have to the KQ games, rewriting them and all...
If a member of AGDI is whining now, well that's tough... If a group starts out stealing someone's IP for their own purpose, they shouldn't expect to get rewarded for it. They certainly shouldn't end up "owning it"... It smacks of 'hostile takeover'...
I really don't want AGDI's games to take over and replace the series... They need to get their egos out of the clouds, and show more respect to the originals. I'm not saying everyone at AGDI is this way, but this person mentioned looks like definitely sees his work as superior to the originals, and worthy of replacing them... How pretentious!
Any professional game made either needs to stay true to the old Sierra games (reference the originals/not rewrite them) or be a strict reboot, not some kind of half attempt to shoehorn something new into the story, while ignoring other aspects of the story (because team doesn't like aspects of the originals)...
There also seems to be a sense that every fan developers out there thinks they are better than every other fan developer and that alone should make them worthy of "owning the rights" to the series... Arrogance!
I pray, Telltalle won't go the route of the fan developers by trying to make things overly complicated (and ignoring series intent). Even a reboot at least needs to stick true to the KQ formula, and keep things simple. If not I'll never buy a KQ game from them again.
I never understood why some people try to link all the King's Quest baddies, because IMHO it's just silly. There are some real connections like family ties between Manannan and Mordack, but most of the connections were either invented by the writers of King's Quest Companion or fans. In similar manner Space Quest Companion tries to link baddies like Elmo Pug and Raemes T. Quirk to Sludge Vohaul.
Ya, while you are right about the Space Quest Companion, connecting all the villains together...the King's Quest Companion, never did anything of that sort.
It makes references to the Black Cloak Society, but they are nearly the same references made in the game (through letters at the end of the story), and that was Jane Jensen's idea. Like KQ6, only Shadrack and Alhazred are connected together, and Mordack's involvement seems limited at best (actually there is less mention of him than in the game). As mentioned in the game he was apparently used/manipulated to kidnap Cassima for Alhazred's scheme. Neither source confirms in any concrete manner that he is a member of the society (though it can be assumed by his connection to Shadrack and Alhazred being members).
The book never tried to connect Lolotte, Dahlia, or Malicia to any other villains though. There are certainly no references to them in relation to a BCS.
Beyond that Sierra On-line developed King's Questions game from the King's Quest Collection (by Josh Mandel of KQ1 remake, and other Sierra developers), and the Companion connected Hagatha to Mordack and Manannan as their sister. But she was never connected into any KQ6 material, or a BCS.
So really, ya the BCS is limited to only KQ6 material in the book, and it only really paraphrases what was said in KQ6 (doesn't add anything new really).
I think its safe to say though in some of the later games, starting with the KQ1 remake, KQ6, KQ7, etc, that Roberta wasn't so much concerned with the storylines but more the technical side of the games. It was the other main producers like Josh Mandel (with KQ1/King's Questions), Jane Jensen (KQ6), Lorelei Shannon (KQ7), etc, that pushed their own influence into the series directly, overshadowing any input Roberta might have had.
Umm, I'm glad that AGDI, POS, etc, don't have licenses to make "official" commercial KQ games... I don't really like what they have to the KQ games, rewriting them and all...
Fair enough.
If a member of AGDI is whining now, well that's tough... If a group starts out stealing someone's IP for their own purpose, they shouldn't expect to get rewarded for it. They certainly shouldn't end up "owning it"... It smacks of 'hostile takeover'...
AGDI didn't "steal the IP." They (as well as the TSL team) had an official fan license to develop their remakes. They had permission.
I really don't want AGDI's games to take over and replace the series... They need to get their egos out of the clouds, and show more respect to the originals. I'm not saying everyone at AGDI is this way, but this person mentioned looks like definitely sees his work as superior to the originals, and worthy of replacing them... How pretentious!
You're not being fair. That same person said that if AGDI did get a license to develop commercial remakes they'd add an option in each game to either play it as the original or with any added story elements. Nobody has their heads in the clouds. And we have the deepest respect for the originals. That's why we did these things to begin with.
No, my personal reservations about Telltale getting the license are for entirely different reasons that you've outlined below:
Any professional game made either needs to stay true to the old Sierra games (reference the originals/not rewrite them) or be a strict reboot, not some kind of half attempt to shoehorn something new into the story, while ignoring other aspects of the story (because team doesn't like aspects of the originals)...
You really think AGDI didn't like the originals? That's not why they added story elements. They just wanted to extend the playing experience for people who have already played the game. Some people thought they added to much, so when KQ3Redux came along we only added small amounts, a couple additional or extended puzzles, and kept the characters and storyline exactly the same.
Your tone is highly inflammatory and you don't even have all the correct information. If you don't like the remakes that's fine, but there's no reason to be so accusatory to one of the groups that kept King's Quest alive enough for ActiVision to consider and eventually authorize a company like Telltale to make a brand new one after all this time. I'm not saying AGDI are solely responsible, but they were definitively a contributing factor.
AGDI didn't "steal the IP." They (as well as the TSL team) had an official fan license to develop their remakes. They had permission.
NO, I know they got a license, later. But as far as I know that was already after they had started making their games..., and after it came to the IP's owners attention.
No, I don't think they "don't like the older games". It just seems to me that whoever was "whining", that they didn't get control of the "IP", and now want to continue their own version of the story (instead of the old). They need to step back and look at the fact that every other fan developer wants to do the same thing...
POS for example, have said they wanted to buy the IP...
I don't want to see that either...
I feel slightly better with Telltale getting it, as they are a professional company, with industry experience, and hopefully can pull some of the older Sierra developers into the mix. But if they try to do the same thing as POS, AGDI, or even IA, I probably won't buy buying their products.
I don't dislike the 'remakes', I just don't want that to be the direction the series takes in the future. I don't want future 'official' sequels making references The Father, or to Valanice being the daughter of Manannan... I want things to be simple. I don't wanted convoluted explanations. If references are made, I want the references to conform to what occured in the originals.
Heh...you mean make a nearly 1:1 remake with almost no additional story elements save for a slightly extended intro and ending (and one easter egg scene?)
Nah, IA is probably the least contrived of the remakes, and least amount of direct changes. But I don't want to see IA competing for taking over "the IP", either.
Nah, IA is probably the least contrived of the remakes, and least amount of direct changes. But I don't want to see IA competing for taking over "the IP", either.
IA has no such aspirations. We are just a bunch of guys (and a gal or two) who like making the types of games that we ourselves would like to play.
Comments
This one had deaths but you could retry as often as you liked. (like in Phantasmagoria 2.)
I agree. I think that the more low key fleshing out of the game works much better at freshening up the feel of the original than the complete rewrite of KQ2+ (though I really liked that, too.) And yeah, gradually uncovering the activities of the previous Gwydion was a stroke of genius, in my opinion. It perfectly fleshes out that bit of back story while also adding a great sense of intrigue and urgency to Alexander's current plight.
I think KQ2+ kind of "TSLed" the series. While they kept the tone of the classic games (unlike TSL), they attempted to tie EVERY SINGLE GAME together by shoehorning in some grand, ''epic'' conspiracy/prophecy going back 1000 years. I don't feel there needs to be a conspiracy, or a prophecy, or any of that crap. I don't even feel we need to revisit the (only mentioned in one line in KQ6) Black Cloak Society. Each KQ game was a relatively self contained story, with only a low key tie to the previous games. Even in KQIV, you didn't need to play KQIII to understand the intro.
Maybe I will at some point. Unfortunately I have too little time for playing these days and at the moment Jane Jensen's Gray Matter is occupying all of that time.
I never understood why some people try to link all the King's Quest baddies, because IMHO it's just silly. There are some real connections like family ties between Manannan and Mordack, but most of the connections were either invented by the writers of King's Quest Companion or fans. In similar manner Space Quest Companion tries to link baddies like Elmo Pug and Raemes T. Quirk to Sludge Vohaul.
In both cases it's completely unnecessary and stories work better if baddies have no connection with each other, like the game designers intended it would be. Roberta and many fans have completely different views about the Black Cloak Society's importance. Personally I feel that Companions and other material like that are bit uncanonical.
Roberta didn't even know there was about the Black Cloak Society until years later when fans brought it up. She recalled briefly musing over the idea of an organization which would've had ONLY Alhazred, Mordack and Manannan early in co-designing KQ6 with Jane Jensen, and Jensen later included it in the finished KQ6. It was never something she seemed to take that seriously, and note that neither KQ7 nor KQ8 so much as mentioned it.
KQ2+ and TSL seem to want to tie every single villain and event of the series to the Black Cloak Society, and weave the games tightly together, and I think having all these people and events tied together actually limits the possibilities for the story going forward and makes the universe of the series that much smaller--much like Lucas did with the Star Wars prequels (IE, Anakin creating C-3PO, meeting Boba Fett as a child and making him a Clone, having Yoda fight alongside Chewbacca in the Clone Wars, etc)
This! That is a big reason why I dislike Kq2+. It tries to tie everything together like your average fanfiction. Hopefully I don't offend anyone, but I really didn't like how AGDI handle the kq2 remake and cringe if they make an official Kq game like kq2+. the whole game feels as if the developer tries to shoehorn every Kq mythology in 1 game. the game felt so convoluted with the shark fighting the mer people, the wolf men vs vampires, and the black cloak society fighting Graham. the game felt like it was trying to be this epic, grand quest. it felt too dark for me.
It also limits the writers' ability to be original and creative. Most fanfiction tries to try everything together. I would like to see new stories with unrelated
villains like the original kq2.
Tying everything up worked horribly with the metal gear solid games. By mgs4, you find out that everything from the three games were staged to try taking down some computer that is controlling everything; the story gotten so stupid and convoluted that it didn't make any sense.
I do understand, why they did so much re-writing tough, as the original has very little plot to begin with, but a bit less would have been more aproriate.
It may not be canon, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. I'm one of those geeks who craves continuity and connections in a series, and the Black Cloak Society was the big unanswered question of the King's Quest saga. I love seeing each and every fan interpretation of how things tie together.
I'm also a Tolkien fan, because I love when a fictional world feels like a huge, expansive, coherent universe. One of the things the King's Quest Companion does well is add a sense of history to the world of Daventry, which to me, gives the games a lot more depth. Fan theories that tie the games together are just taking that one step further.
I understand that theories about connections aren't going to be enjoyed by everyone, and that's fine. Some people prefer the more standalone nature of each game in the original series. But I enjoy watching fans take on the challenge of seeing how things could possibly connect, and even when the results are far-fetched, I still find the ride very entertaining.
I don't mind if hero is always fighting against the same archnemesis, like Guybrush Threepwood is always fighting against LeChuck, or if baddies are related, like Bains brothers in original PQ trilogy, as long as it feels natural. However as nothing in the original KQ games or manuals suggests any connection between many baddies I have difficulties to adopt the concept and it feels bit forced.
Everyone has their preferences and in some level I understand your preference, but still I hope that TTG doesn't try to include some grand conspiracy with all the previous baddies into their new KQ series.
It's strange how extreme each opinion is, though. Usually it's either a fan wants everything to be tied together and loves KQ2+ and TSL or they LOATHE the idea of any sort of deep storyline in a KQ game altogether to the point of disliking even KQ6 for it.
For me, it matters that the style and tone of a non-Sierra KQ game matches the ones that are. By this, I mean that as I consider KQ5 and 6 to have the quintessential style and interface- KQ6 and 7 to have the epitome of proper tone- it matters that additional games fit the same feel.
This is why TSL falls flat. It has neither the same tone nor style of said games. It just... doesn't.
Meanwhile, AGDI's games fit perfectly with the canon. If it had been claimed that Sierra Online had made these games, noone would be able to tell otherwise. They're just that giood. IA's KQ3 is good, save for a few minor things (the voice acting for the barmaid and Guybrush, and the need to click off dialogue when speech is enabled.)
When it comes down to it, I would pay real money to buy the AGDI and IA remakes of KQ games. However, I have... apprehension... that TTG's KQ games are going to feel far more like bad fan-fiction. It's cruel that Kingdom of Sorrow is probably going to be excellent yet requires earning no profit, while TTG's KQ games may make them money while being of lesser quality.
I just feel that when I apply the toughest test of all - whether a game feels 100% authentically up to Sierra quality and polish, none of the fan games have passed so far, despite very valiant efforts indeed.
I personally thought the additions to the KQII remake, for example, were a mistake... I would have preferred a 1-to-1 remake. But then, here is hoping someone else will one day do just that!
(Hopefully with fully updated graphics and audio, and the ability to switch between the original and new graphics and gameplay, as with the Monkey Island remakes.)
In my view, KQII was complete when Sierra released it back in the eighties, and adding new material to it in a fan remake implies there was something missing from the original, which I disagree with. It is not, in my view and to be completely frank, the place of remakers to put in their own material. That material may be terrific - but it belongs in a game all their own.
No offence is intended by any of this! And I am fine with others disagreeing with this view. Also, I would be very happy with these remakes if they also offered the option to play with the original text and story only. As for the full-blown 1-to-1 remakes with both old and new graphics, audio and gameplay, I believe these will eventually happen as top-quality commercial releases.
So in the end, we will all be happy. There will be a different KQ remake for every person on earth.
I have always seen it as an independent sequel and it took much more time to solve it than average episode of TTG's adventures. Back then we didn't have walkthroughs easily available, so solving the (sometimes obscure) puzzles took it's time. I managed to break the bridge and I had to restart once, but I consider myself lucky because I managed to avoid other dead ends.
I think it's all pure business decision, Telltale has proven sales record and they've been doing it in 3D since the beginning. Majority of the current gamers won't even bother to touch any 2D games which is very sad, 2D is always better than 3D especially for adventure games IMO!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goGXW2hzUVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf09eXkZiNo
That won't happen because all the source code for anything Sierra-related was trashed when Sierra was first bought-out by CUC.
All that is too much work for any corporation to care to put into it. LucasArts, on the other hand, has all of their source code for everything they've done archived and can easily create new implementations to the SCUMM engine like the Monkey Island Special Editions on top of the original code.
It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't bet on some kind of similar SE updates happening even unofficially, let alone officially.
Anyway, I will keep dreaming until it happens!
Where did you read about the source codes being trashed?
There's some info about the project. It appears to still be in production, or it was atleast in january. The article states, that the plot won't be changed, but some scenes, like intro, will be extented.
You do realize that the author of this remake can be found three posts above yours?
From Al Lowe, actually. During a Skype interview somewhere. I've also heard it beforehand from other ex-Sierra employees.
Yes, as much a 1:1 remake as KQ1SCI was. That's the style I'm aiming for. Re-written dialogues, reimagined backgrounds, maybe fix some strange puzzles if need be or the context of some puzzles (like the woodcutter and his wife from KQ1). All in all it'll be the same, though.
Whoa! Looks awesome!
If a member of AGDI is whining now, well that's tough... If a group starts out stealing someone's IP for their own purpose, they shouldn't expect to get rewarded for it. They certainly shouldn't end up "owning it"... It smacks of 'hostile takeover'...
I really don't want AGDI's games to take over and replace the series... They need to get their egos out of the clouds, and show more respect to the originals. I'm not saying everyone at AGDI is this way, but this person mentioned looks like definitely sees his work as superior to the originals, and worthy of replacing them... How pretentious!
Any professional game made either needs to stay true to the old Sierra games (reference the originals/not rewrite them) or be a strict reboot, not some kind of half attempt to shoehorn something new into the story, while ignoring other aspects of the story (because team doesn't like aspects of the originals)...
There also seems to be a sense that every fan developers out there thinks they are better than every other fan developer and that alone should make them worthy of "owning the rights" to the series... Arrogance!
I pray, Telltalle won't go the route of the fan developers by trying to make things overly complicated (and ignoring series intent). Even a reboot at least needs to stick true to the KQ formula, and keep things simple. If not I'll never buy a KQ game from them again.
Ya, while you are right about the Space Quest Companion, connecting all the villains together...the King's Quest Companion, never did anything of that sort.
It makes references to the Black Cloak Society, but they are nearly the same references made in the game (through letters at the end of the story), and that was Jane Jensen's idea. Like KQ6, only Shadrack and Alhazred are connected together, and Mordack's involvement seems limited at best (actually there is less mention of him than in the game). As mentioned in the game he was apparently used/manipulated to kidnap Cassima for Alhazred's scheme. Neither source confirms in any concrete manner that he is a member of the society (though it can be assumed by his connection to Shadrack and Alhazred being members).
The book never tried to connect Lolotte, Dahlia, or Malicia to any other villains though. There are certainly no references to them in relation to a BCS.
Beyond that Sierra On-line developed King's Questions game from the King's Quest Collection (by Josh Mandel of KQ1 remake, and other Sierra developers), and the Companion connected Hagatha to Mordack and Manannan as their sister. But she was never connected into any KQ6 material, or a BCS.
So really, ya the BCS is limited to only KQ6 material in the book, and it only really paraphrases what was said in KQ6 (doesn't add anything new really).
I think its safe to say though in some of the later games, starting with the KQ1 remake, KQ6, KQ7, etc, that Roberta wasn't so much concerned with the storylines but more the technical side of the games. It was the other main producers like Josh Mandel (with KQ1/King's Questions), Jane Jensen (KQ6), Lorelei Shannon (KQ7), etc, that pushed their own influence into the series directly, overshadowing any input Roberta might have had.
Fair enough.
AGDI didn't "steal the IP." They (as well as the TSL team) had an official fan license to develop their remakes. They had permission.
You're not being fair. That same person said that if AGDI did get a license to develop commercial remakes they'd add an option in each game to either play it as the original or with any added story elements. Nobody has their heads in the clouds. And we have the deepest respect for the originals. That's why we did these things to begin with.
No, my personal reservations about Telltale getting the license are for entirely different reasons that you've outlined below:
You really think AGDI didn't like the originals? That's not why they added story elements. They just wanted to extend the playing experience for people who have already played the game. Some people thought they added to much, so when KQ3Redux came along we only added small amounts, a couple additional or extended puzzles, and kept the characters and storyline exactly the same.
Your tone is highly inflammatory and you don't even have all the correct information. If you don't like the remakes that's fine, but there's no reason to be so accusatory to one of the groups that kept King's Quest alive enough for ActiVision to consider and eventually authorize a company like Telltale to make a brand new one after all this time. I'm not saying AGDI are solely responsible, but they were definitively a contributing factor.
Definitely. Without the KQ1 remake I would have never bought the KQ-Collection or the SQ-Collection.
NO, I know they got a license, later. But as far as I know that was already after they had started making their games..., and after it came to the IP's owners attention.
No, I don't think they "don't like the older games". It just seems to me that whoever was "whining", that they didn't get control of the "IP", and now want to continue their own version of the story (instead of the old). They need to step back and look at the fact that every other fan developer wants to do the same thing...
POS for example, have said they wanted to buy the IP...
I don't want to see that either...
I feel slightly better with Telltale getting it, as they are a professional company, with industry experience, and hopefully can pull some of the older Sierra developers into the mix. But if they try to do the same thing as POS, AGDI, or even IA, I probably won't buy buying their products.
I don't dislike the 'remakes', I just don't want that to be the direction the series takes in the future. I don't want future 'official' sequels making references The Father, or to Valanice being the daughter of Manannan... I want things to be simple. I don't wanted convoluted explanations. If references are made, I want the references to conform to what occured in the originals.
Heh...you mean make a nearly 1:1 remake with almost no additional story elements save for a slightly extended intro and ending (and one easter egg scene?)
IA has no such aspirations. We are just a bunch of guys (and a gal or two) who like making the types of games that we ourselves would like to play.