How should this game handle ingame deaths?

edited April 2011 in Kings Quest Game
How should this KQ game approach dying? Specifically, should it have a "Restore/Restart/Quit" popup with only manual saves, should it have a "Try Again" popup with autosaves set right before encountering unavoidable death, or should it have less frequent autosaves and still require you to manually restore?

Do you have any different ideas?
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Comments

  • edited March 2011
    Personally, I would prefer manual saving ONLY, to preserve the integrity of the golden age Sierra experience. However, I think varying the amount of autosave/retry options based on a chosen difficulty setting is a brilliant way to handle it.
  • edited March 2011
    Mandatory manual saving is a pointless waste of time. Spending hours looking at a save game screen does nothing to enhance the game experience.
  • edited March 2011
    I agree with my fellow Wisconsonaut
  • edited March 2011
    Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like a save/reload system should be one of the easier things to provide a "choice" to. Wouldn't it make sense for a save feature called "Classic Sierra" or something along those lines, which has only manual saves and quicksaves? Even if you hate the idea, think it's the stupidest thing to ever happen, etc, if everyone gets a chance to opt in or out...why should you care if someone else might have been forced to opt out of something they may have enjoyed, for whatever reason they may have for that?
  • edited March 2011
    I also agree with my fellow Dashingnaut
  • edited March 2011
    Also, I voted for more options, because options are good. Unfortunately, Telltale's stance on options typically tends to be "Our customers are too stupid to make any decisions so we can't have complicated options or they'll get confused."
  • edited March 2011
    I picked choose in the beginning cause everyone will prefer there own way. I don't know if that's difficult to do but it'll seem to please the most people. I actually didn't mind the KQ7/SQ6 restore method cause it got me right back where I left off if i didn't know I was in danger and died.
  • edited March 2011
    I definitely vote for the option of having a choice between old school and new school. But really, I don't care that much as long as there a ton of interesting and sometimes pointless ways to die with humorous pun-filled explanations. It's funny, but I really love how Sierra games could kill you for no real reason... such as just walking too close to the river at the beginning of KQ5.
  • edited March 2011
    I'd really love a choice. I'd love to play without autosaves or retries. It ups the challenge. Having a choice is a brilliant way to approach it.
  • edited March 2011
    Mandatory manual saving is a pointless waste of time. Spending hours looking at a save game screen does nothing to enhance the game experience.

    except for giving the game a classic feel and increasing difficulty (which many people actually want.)

    I went with provide a choice. It would be simple to do and would make more people happy.
  • edited March 2011
    chucklas wrote: »
    except for giving the game a classic feel and increasing difficulty (which many people actually want.)

    It doesn't "increase difficulty". It increases the annoyance of having to constantly mash the save key every few minutes or lose some progress when you inevitably die in some strange way. Nothing about the game itself becomes harder, it just becomes more annoying.

    But either way, I already said let there be choice.
  • edited March 2011
    For you. There's a feigned sense of actual real danger to your playing experience if you haven't saved and you die. That's challenging. You're a lot more timid and nervous about things (which immerses you more into the experience) if you know you could die at any moment (as much as in real life) if you do something silly or make a mistake. If you die without a save it's like you actually died and you have to start over. It's very similar to any arcade game. If you're smart enough to save, however, you get to continue.

    The way I see it, if there's going to be a retry or autosave function then why have deaths at all? That sense of danger is completely gone and it turns into a simple puzzle game.

    So, make it a choice.
  • edited March 2011
    For you. There's a feigned sense of actual real danger to your playing experience if you haven't saved and you die. That's challenging. You're a lot more timid and nervous about things (which immerses you more into the experience) if you know you could die at any moment (as much as in real life) if you do something silly or make a mistake. If you die without a save it's like you actually died and you have to start over. It's very similar to any arcade game. If you're smart enough to save, however, you get to continue.

    The way I see it, if there's going to be a retry or autosave function then why have deaths at all? That sense of danger is completely gone and it turns into a simple puzzle game.

    It's less a sense of danger for me and more a sense of "God, I am sick of hitting save after every other step I take." The way deaths worked in 302 was perfect for me.
  • edited March 2011
    You don't need to save after every step you take. Just save after you've done something important, i.e. after you've done something that increases your score, or before attempting something that might be risky. If the only progress you've lost is walking around and looking at things, then you haven't actually lost any progress at all. And if you do lose significant progress, it isn't actually that bad to replay it. It goes much faster after you've already figured out what to do.
  • edited March 2011
    You don't need to save after every step you take. Just save after you've done something important, i.e. after you've done something that increases your score, or before attempting something that might be risky. If the only progress you've lost is walking around and looking at things, then you haven't actually lost any progress at all. And if you do lose significant progress, it isn't actually that bad to replay it. It goes much faster after you've already figured out what to do.

    It's still a mostly unnecessary annoyance. The only tangible difference between auto-saving after you solve a puzzle and manual save is that you have to poke around on a save menu constantly with manual saves.
  • edited March 2011
    It's still a mostly unnecessary annoyance. The only tangible difference between auto-saving after you solve a puzzle and manual save is that you have to poke around on a save menu constantly with manual saves.

    I kind of agree, actually. An experienced adventure gamer will automatically save as a sort of mechanical Pavlovian reaction anyway. It's not really a matter of skill or strategy. It's like periodically saving a text document you're working on in case something screws up; it's just kind of a good idea, and a prudent person knows to do so. If the games were really meant to be cruel and difficult, they wouldn't let you save at all, like their arcade and action game contemporaries that would send you all the way back to the beginning if you died. Most other game genres have check points and autosaves now, and those seem like a reasonable thing to include in adventure games too. Since King's Quest is a nostalgic franchise, and fans expect nostalgic gameplay from it, though, I think Telltale should definitely give the player a choice.
  • edited March 2011
    I wouldn't mind autosaves as long as they didn't kick in RIGHT before you die. That's basically a "retry" which makes deaths minor annoyances and pointless. I wouldn't mind if it autosaved once you reached a new area (not a new screen, a new area) or maybe after you receive a point or find an important item or something.
  • edited March 2011
    I wouldn't mind autosaves as long as they didn't kick in RIGHT before you die. That's basically a "retry" which makes deaths minor annoyances and pointless. I wouldn't mind if it autosaved once you reached a new area (not a new screen, a new area) or maybe after you receive a point or find an important item or something.

    Which is why I absolutely HATED the newer Tomb Raider games and the Uncharted Games. If I screw up and the game only backs me up like ten seconds then it takes all the pressure off me to play properly.

    As opposed to something like Demon's Souls where if you screw up you could potentially lose hours of hard work.
  • edited March 2011
    wilco64256 wrote: »
    Which is why I absolutely HATED the newer Tomb Raider games and the Uncharted Games. If I screw up and the game only backs me up like ten seconds then it takes all the pressure off me to play properly.

    There's still plenty incentive to play properly. Anybody can finish an Uncharted game, but it still takes a lot of skill and effort to complete it on a high difficulty level and with decent "score". That, to me, is the best of both worlds.
  • edited March 2011
    Radogol wrote: »
    There's still plenty incentive to play properly. Anybody can finish an Uncharted game, but it still takes a lot of skill and effort to complete it on a high difficulty level and with decent "score". That, to me, is the best of both worlds.

    Yeah see I want a game to challenge me because it's a challenging game, not because I set the difficulty setting higher. There's a difference between a challenging game and a difficult game.
  • edited March 2011
    wilco64256 wrote: »
    Yeah see I want a game to challenge me because it's a challenging game, not because I set the difficulty setting higher.

    This statement baffles me to the point where I'm at loss for words. Well played.
  • edited March 2011
    Radogol wrote: »
    This statement baffles me to the point where I'm at loss for words. Well played.

    I think what you're missing here is my point that there's a huge difference between a game being a good challenge and it being difficult just because there's a setting I can change so that the enemies do a ridiculous amount of damage to me. Making the ghosts travel ten times faster in Pacman might make it more difficult, but that's not a "better" challenge.

    In the same light, I don't see how increasing the "difficulty" setting on Uncharted makes it any better. It doesn't change the mechanics of how the game plays at all.
  • edited March 2011
    Uncharted gives you all the tools you need to complete each level without a scratch. If a player can't complete an encounter on Crushing, that's because his skill is insufficient, not because the game is unfair.
  • edited March 2011
    wilco64256 wrote: »
    I think what you're missing here is my point that there's a huge difference between a game being a good challenge and it being difficult just because there's a setting I can change so that the enemies do a ridiculous amount of damage to me. Making the ghosts travel ten times faster in Pacman might make it more difficult, but that's not a "better" challenge.

    In the same light, I don't see how increasing the "difficulty" setting on Uncharted makes it any better. It doesn't change the mechanics of how the game plays at all.

    How is being sent back to play through the same area you've already completed earlier more challenging than raising the difficulty to the point that you have to play extremely carefully to avoid being killed?
  • edited March 2011
    Becuase you obviously don't want to go back to play through the areas you've played through already. This goes back to my earlier point. There's a danger to your accomplishments up to that point. If you haven't saved you're going to lose it. In an FPS this isn't necessary, but it is crucial (for some of us) to the experience of an adventure game.

    This is really a mindset thing and how specific people look at adventures. I doubt people with an opinion like yours, Shodan, will even understand it. (that was in no way a jab or an insult) That's why I ask for a choice.
  • edited March 2011
    Becuase you obviously don't want to go back to play through the areas you've played through already. This goes back to my earlier point. There's a danger to your accomplishments up to that point. If you haven't saved you're going to lose it. In an FPS this isn't necessary, but it is crucial (for some of us) to the experience of an adventure game.

    This is really a mindset thing and how specific people look at adventures. I doubt people with an opinion like yours, Shodan, will even understand it. (that was in no way a jab or an insult) That's why I ask for a choice.

    This right here, it's just a different mindset about what makes a game good. If a good game to you is one that just changes the damage variables so that you die 600 times in every area that's totally fine. That's just different from what some other people consider to be a proper challenge.
  • edited March 2011
    wilco64256 wrote: »
    If a good game to you is one that just changes the damage variables so that you die 600 times in every area that's totally fine. That's just different from what some other people consider to be a proper challenge.

    Don't be such a patronizing dick. The generalizations are uncalled for.
  • edited March 2011
    Radogol wrote: »
    Don't be such a patronizing dick. The generalizations are uncalled for.

    Wow, easy tiger. It's perfectly okay to have a difference of opinion but there's no need for you to start calling names.
  • puzzleboxpuzzlebox Telltale Alumni
    edited March 2011
    Hey guys, keep it classy here.

    As for in-game deaths - I just don't like to see my character die, and that's enough to create a sense of "danger" for me. Dying feels like failure. Sure, I'll poke the wasp's nest just to see what happens, but I'll probably only do it once (unless it leads to an amusing death that begs repeated viewings).

    Manual saves don't really add anything to the experience for me, so I'm all for KQVII-style "try again" popups. I sure don't mind if the player gets to choose autosave frequency, but I'd be going the least manual route.
  • edited March 2011
    But imagine leaving in deaths and dead-ends...etc. You have to play the game in such a way that you are trying to prevent these things from occurring. To me that makes a great challenge. If you remove those elements, it makes it so you can't play on if you haven't done everything right to that point. Why not let the adventurer decide if he thinks that he is ready, and if he is not, lets hope he saved just in case. That to me makes a great sense of adventure and challenge. In KQVI I wouldn't go into the catacombs unless I felt confident that I had everything that I needed, and if I forgot something, I would be screwed. But I save before going in just in case. I don't know how anyone can see a problem with that design, but then again, everyone doesn't think like me. That is why having difficulty settings makes sense. No one is the same in what they like or how they think.
  • edited March 2011
    Yeah see the difference between having to do your own saving and the whole autosaving thing is that an autosave takes (just my opinion) all of the challenge out of a game by showing you exactly where you screwed up. If you have to do all your own saving then it takes a lot more thought and planning on the player's part to figure out what's going wrong when they get stuck or die.
  • edited March 2011
    How about a pop up option asking the player the style they'd like to play under? Like asking them if they'd like to play the "Classic Sierra" way (Save Early, Save Often), the "Modern Sierra" way (reversible death, KQ7-esqe), or the "TTG/LucasArts" way (the only reason to save is incase of power failure)?
  • edited March 2011
    How about a pop up option asking the player the style they'd like to play under? Like asking them if they'd like to play the "Classic Sierra" way (Save Early, Save Often), the "Modern Sierra" way (reversible death, KQ7-esqe), or the "TTG/LucasArts" way (the only reason to save is incase of power failure)?

    The main problem I see with that is it's extra work to code multiple methods into a game like that and I don't really see Telltale wanting to spend that time or effort required to do so. They do the games and get them out the door. I'd love to see that, but I don't expect it at all.
  • edited March 2011
    the "TTG/LucasArts" way (the only reason to save is incase of power failure)?

    LucasArts games never had auto-save. :p
  • edited March 2011
    LucasArts games never had auto-save. :p

    True, but my statement still holds true. The only game from LucasArts (LucasFilms Games as it was known at the time) that I can recall that you could actually die (or be captured, as was the case) in was the first one, Maniac Mansion.
  • edited March 2011
    True, but my statement still holds true. The only game from LucasArts (LucasFilms Games as it was known at the time) that I can recall that you could actually die (or be captured, as was the case) in was the first one, Maniac Mansion.

    The Indy games, too. Zak McKracken also had its fair share of dead ends.
  • edited March 2011
    Lambonius wrote: »
    The Indy games, too. Zak McKracken also had its fair share of dead ends.

    Meh, never much of a LucasArts fan back in the day.
  • edited March 2011
    True, but my statement still holds true. The only game from LucasArts (LucasFilms Games as it was known at the time) that I can recall that you could actually die (or be captured, as was the case) in was the first one, Maniac Mansion.

    If you stayed underwater for 10 minutes in the first Monkey Island, the game would become unwinnable, too.
  • edited March 2011
    wilco64256 wrote: »
    Yeah see the difference between having to do your own saving and the whole autosaving thing is that an autosave takes (just my opinion) all of the challenge out of a game by showing you exactly where you screwed up. If you have to do all your own saving then it takes a lot more thought and planning on the player's part to figure out what's going wrong when they get stuck or die.

    This.

    I want a Restore/Restart/Quit screen. If I have an an autosave function, I want to it only save at various checkpoints or when I get a point for doing something. I don't want to go right back to before I died. I voted for having a choice.

    Shodan, you've played too many LucasArts games and too few Sierra games to understand the value of making the player save early, save often and be careful about overwriting ealier savegames.

    In KQ3, you're made to walk down the mountain at least once to get to town. If you fell off the mountain and the game gave you a Retry screen and put you right exactly next to where you fell, then there would be no feeling of precariousness. There would be no thought of "oh, crap I hope I don't fall... maybe I should save right here so I don't have to walk all the way down again if I die."

    Also, say you're playing KQ6 and wandering the catacombs. If you walk into a room with a trapfloor, die and get a Retry screen, you would be put in the room immediately before you walked into the trap. Such a thing would drastically reduce the feeling of peril you get from playing the game.

    But if you don't want the feeling of peril, then fine. I voted for choice anyway.
  • edited March 2011
    If you stayed underwater for 10 minutes in the first Monkey Island, the game would become unwinnable, too.

    Wasn't there also a dead end where you could waste all your pieces of eight on the Grog machine or something?
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