1.Edna burned down Kid's Speakesy and tried to burn down another one of his
2. Edna hates alcohol enough to burn down its establishments, why would she get together with someone who makes them?
3. Kid tried to kill Edna, why would she want to get married to him?
I can think of a lot. Kid Tannen had, in 1931, already killed countless people who were in his way (as evidenced in the speakeasy caricatures). We simply must assume that (a) in 1931, he would have to get at least life in prison and no chance of parole, (b) Edna knew this and would never even come close to this murderer and (c) even if Tannen did get out of prison and Edna would somehow start to like him, we're still looking at some solid 30 to 40 years in prison, leaving Edna alone in that time; and that beats the psychological purpose of this story development. Edna was "given" Kid to lessen Marty's and the player's possible bad conscience by taking Doc "away from her". This failed; and possibly as point (d) Biff Tannen is still conceived, so according to TTG's established history, Kid would still have to break out of prison for three hours in ca. 1937, thus lengthening his incarceration.
Secondly, also from a storytelling point of view, the character of Kid Tannen is beyond repair. Even if Tannen miraculously found his way to a better self, the player would have to SEE that development, at least the beginning of it, in the game. Nothing like that occurred here, making the Edna-Kid pairing even harder to swallow.
I can see the possibility that these three marty's are some how a consequence of 1986 having been changed 3 times with the temporal duplicate throughout the episodes.
1st Marty: - kind of how regular marty should turn out; married to jen and has er... 12 kids(?) = result of episode 5 version of 1986.
2nd marty: - blue marty talks about being married to tiff tannen. He could be from the future of FCB timeline who never marries jen.
3rd Marty: - this could be the one from the timeline ruled by the tannen family. All the running from mob thugs have toughened him up.
Or it could all be a joke, which I enjoyed just as much
I've been debating several times whether or not alternate futures can affect the past. Ultimately I came to the conclusion they can;
In the trip back to 1955 in part II we see Marty from part I (twin pines mall) as well as biff from 2015 lone pines mall timeline despite the fact that both these timelines were not current one and biff may be dead by 2015 in that timeline.
In episodes 3 and 4 of the game which were FCB timeline, there is plenty of evidence of 'old doc' still making the trip to 1931 (him being in FCB's picture, the fact everyone still remembers Carl Sagan)
So I'm sure we are in agreement that 2015 will not play out the same way we saw in part II due to changes to the timeline. So lets say in the current version of the timeline, biff gets a time machine again in 2015 and travels back to november 12th 1955, we'd have 2 different versions of Biff from 2 timelines. So this is the same rationale you can use for the 3 marty's.
I've been debating several times whether or not alternate futures can affect the past. Ultimately I came to the conclusion they can;
In the trip back to 1955 in part II we see Marty from part I (twin pines mall) as well as biff from 2015 lone pines mall timeline despite the fact that both these timelines were not current one and biff may be dead by 2015 in that timeline.
In episodes 3 and 4 of the game which were FCB timeline, there is plenty of evidence of 'old doc' still making the trip to 1931 (him being in FCB's picture, the fact everyone still remembers Carl Sagan)
So I'm sure we are in agreement that 2015 will not play out the same way we saw in part II due to changes to the timeline. So lets say in the current version of the timeline, biff gets a time machine again in 2015 and travels back to november 12th 1955, we'd have 2 different versions of Biff from 2 timelines. So this is the same rationale you can use for the 3 marty's.
I agree with you 100%. This is the same example I use to explain how multiple timelines can affect the final timeline, even if those timelines have been erased.
Hell, even in 1885 in BTTF3, Doc and Marty have both arrived from different timelines. Doc has arrived from the repaired Lone Pine timeline (where the ravine is named Clayton Ravine, the Delorean wasn't in the mine and there was no tombstone). Marty arrives from the 'Shonash' timeline (where the ravine is named Shonash Ravine (though Marty remembers the original timeline), the Delorean was in the mine and there was a tombstone). The arrival of Doc from the Lone Pine timeline, combined with that of Marty from the Shonash timeline, results in the Eastwood timeline. Now, the timelines both Doc and Marty arrived from have been erased, and yet their actions (and in Marty's case, what he learned in the erased Shonash timeline) are instrumental in the creation of the Eastwood timeline.
The confusing thing with your examples are that those alternate timeline people are different people. Like its Doc&Marty or Doc&Biff&Marty but never the same guy.
Yes there were 2 Martys in BTTF2 1955 but there's a question too; which Marty was that on the stage, TP or LP or even another Marty?
I personally think LP has to get erased with his first trip because if he didn't, TP Marty would eventually have to get erased. Also if LP didn't get erased, events in 1955 would now be slightly different since LP Marty is a slightly different guy. This would mean with every trip of the next alternate, events in the past are slightly changed so it renders things much more complex, more suitable for paradoxes. Therefore I guess we all believe it was TP Marty in BTTF2 1955 on the stage.
So I think this alternate selves coexisting issue never took place in the movies.
Also I always believed that there has to be an "original" who is making the first trip in BTTF universe. And alternate younger selves somehow get erased when they reach that moment in their life spans. If original somehow endangers his existance, he gets erased.
So I really don't get how is it possible. 2 of those Martys shouldn't be able to appear at the end of the game.
think of it this way; at one point in time there was a timeline where only only one future marty shows up in 1986. Then the timeline changed (probably through time travel) so that a second marty showed up. Then it changed again so a 3rd marty shows up.
Yes i'm well aware normally we see things from the earliest version of the timestream but remember the future always trumps the past. So from docs perspective he wouldnt remember the original timeline where he's not visited by marty in 1955. Likewise even though a timeline existed where marty is not visited by his future self in 1986, marty would remember this (or the timelines where he was only visited by 1 or 2 versions of himself). If you asked these future martys what they remember on June 15th 1986 they'd each remember either not being visited by a future self or only 1 or 2 future selves growing up.
Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty
Now keep in mind that because they are time displaced, they wouldnt fade out. So silver marty would return to his present and find it's now the blue timeline and then bue marty would return to his present and find its the black timeline. Depending on what events cause the timelines to change, it's possible this 3 keep going back and back to restore their respective timelines. Eventually they all arrive on this date because it is the earliest they can go (they dont want to intercept marty before he leaves for 1931 to risk a paradox)
4) this is the timeline we see. 3 marty's come from the future. So it's possible that upon seeing the future marty's individual timelines, marty will be able to choose the one he likes best based on the decisions he makes.
Let's also remember this. Even Doc Brown was confused as **** as to how all that was happening. If the Doc can't figure it out, what chance do we have?
Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty
The problem is this. In BTTF1, TP Marty goes to 1955 and alters his life. BUT, when that altered LP Marty goes back to 1955 at the end of the film, now there aren't 2 Martys back in 1955! In BTTF2, we don't see 2 younger Martys TP and LP together. For some reason, selves who travel past don't stack up there, only one survives. Others get erased, merged or whatever, but only 1 remains.
Therefore if silver Marty is the earliest one, Blue and Black should have been vanished when they travelled just like LP did. What if Blue and Black are from slightly different life spans? That cannot be because if silver one is the earliest, next alternates have to follow his steps somehow.
Let's also remember this. Even Doc Brown was confused as **** as to how all that was happening. If the Doc can't figure it out, what chance do we have?
Yeah I hope TTG explains this in the future because if this was just a joke, I don't like it. The ending of the TV series Lost was the worst ending that I hated most in my life and now this would become the second, if it's just a joke.
think of it this way; at one point in time there was a timeline where only only one future marty shows up in 1986. Then the timeline changed (probably through time travel) so that a second marty showed up. Then it changed again so a 3rd marty shows up.
Yes i'm well aware normally we see things from the earliest version of the timestream but remember the future always trumps the past. So from docs perspective he wouldnt remember the original timeline where he's not visited by marty in 1955. Likewise even though a timeline existed where marty is not visited by his future self in 1986, marty would remember this (or the timelines where he was only visited by 1 or 2 versions of himself). If you asked these future martys what they remember on June 15th 1986 they'd each remember either not being visited by a future self or only 1 or 2 future selves growing up.
Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty
Now keep in mind that because they are time displaced, they wouldnt fade out. So silver marty would return to his present and find it's now the blue timeline and then bue marty would return to his present and find its the black timeline. Depending on what events cause the timelines to change, it's possible this 3 keep going back and back to restore their respective timelines. Eventually they all arrive on this date because it is the earliest they can go (they dont want to intercept marty before he leaves for 1931 to risk a paradox)
4) this is the timeline we see. 3 marty's come from the future. So it's possible that upon seeing the future marty's individual timelines, marty will be able to choose the one he likes best based on the decisions he makes.
I could have sworn I'd posted a lengthy reply to this earlier buut it seems to have gone missing
Anyways, there is a simple example to prove how two alternate versions of a character from the same approximate point in the future can both co-exist in the past...
Suppose, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty (whether he's TP Marty or LP Marty at this point is irrelevant) is injured escaping Biff or somehow and for some reason cannot make the trip back to 1955 with Doc. But Doc runs into the Marty of 1985-A, the one who's supposed to be in Switzerland and enlists his aid to help repair the timeline (kinda the same thing we see in the game, albeit with Marty and Doc's roles reversed)...so Doc and Marty-A go back to 1955...and everything happens as we see in the film (albeit we're following a different Marty)...up until the Enchantment Under the Sea Dance...and then...Marty-A would see TP Marty on stage, doing all the things we saw Marty do in BTTF1...he would be a totally different version from TP Marty and wouldn't remember doing any of that stuff, yet both Marty's would be able to co-exist until 10:04 pm when TP Marty has to return to the future...
Suppose, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty (whether he's TP Marty or LP Marty at this point is irrelevant) is injured escaping Biff or somehow and for some reason cannot make the trip back to 1955 with Doc. But Doc runs into the Marty of 1985-A, the one who's supposed to be in Switzerland and enlists his aid to help repair the timeline (kinda the same thing we see in the game, albeit with Marty and Doc's roles reversed)...so Doc and Marty-A go back to 1955...and everything happens as we see in the film (albeit we're following a different Marty)...up until the Enchantment Under the Sea Dance...and then...Marty-A would see TP Marty on stage, doing all the things we saw Marty do in BTTF1...he would be a totally different version from TP Marty and wouldn't remember doing any of that stuff, yet both Marty's would be able to co-exist until 10:04 pm when TP Marty has to return to the future...
Ok but with this example, there also is another question. It would be Doc who brings those Martys together. Any alternate Marty can not travel in time unless Marty prior to him does so. So in the game, there has to be someone else who caused those 3 Martys to go back in time. Like someone going back and forth, altering things and then telling those alternate future Martys to go back to 1986. Who could it be? I couldn't really get any implication for such individual but I believe Marty alone can not cause such effect.
Ok but with this example, there also is another question. It would be Doc who brings those Martys together. Any alternate Marty can not travel in time unless Marty prior to him does so. So in the game, there has to be someone else who caused those 3 Martys to go back in time. Like someone going back and forth, altering things and then telling those alternate future Martys to go back to 1986. Who could it be? I couldn't really get any implication for such individual but I believe Marty alone can not cause such effect.
Look at it this way;
in 1955 marty showed up twice on the same day. The second time doc was there with him but he didn't have to be.
In 1931 we also see an instance of 2 marty's at the court house in episode 2.
So at this point if marty were to revisit either november 12th 1955 or june 13th 1931 we'd have the same result; 3 marty's from 3 different timelines.
Let's use the 1955 example and add to it a 3rd marty which would be the one at the end of episode 5 (let's assume thats where doc and marty go at the end of episode 5)
part I marty is from the timeline twin pines mall exists
part II marty is from the timeline with lone pine mall where kid and edna do NOT get together
game marty is from the timeline where kid and edna hook up which is the current timeline.
Doc can restore either of the timelines which have been overwritten; he can restore part I marty's timeline by preventing marty from saving George from getting hit by Lorraines car (then marty would simply hide in docs house in 1955 for the week and go back to the future)
Doc could also return the timeline to part II marty's timeline. To do this he'd have to go back to 1931 and stop young emmett from getting together with edna; maybe he'd find a way to prevent danny parker from finding 'Carl Sagan' at the beginning of episode 2 so Danny doesn't go crazy and arrests Kid properly.
Keep in mind we dont know what the junction points which splits the path of these 3 marty's we see in the game are. At one time they all had the same timeline and presumably that was after 1986 that the junction point happen. The first one is rambling about his great great grandkids (so probably late 21st century) which likely means one of 2 things; he either went to a rejuvination clinic and is over the age of 100 or he's traveled to his own future and found problems. For instance he could be from the 2040's and travelled to the 2080's and found out there's a problem with his great great grandkids.
in 1955 marty showed up twice on the same day. The second time doc was there with him but he didn't have to be.
In 1931 we also see an instance of 2 marty's at the court house in episode 2.
But as far as I know they are the same Martys, not from 2 different original timelines. Their ages are slightly different but both of them supposed to remember TP timeline.
So at this point if marty were to revisit either november 12th 1955 or june 13th 1931 we'd have the same result; 3 marty's from 3 different timelines.
I don't think so, the Marty on the stage has to be TP, the one travelling also is TP and the Marty in the game is supposed to be the TP Marty we known from the movies. Without someone else directing an alternate one, the alternates cannot decide to travel some time different.
Think about this, TP Marty travels and alters past so TPMall becomes LPMall. And we have a LP Marty up to the point TP travelled, he has known the mall as LPMall all along. So without someone interfering and telling him what had happened, can LP Marty make a trip on his own? Can the events be changed only by the actions of the alternates? I believe alternates has to follow prior one's actions. So for example without anyone telling him, LP Marty can not decide to put plutonium case in the car while recording. Or without anyone telling him, he can not change the time on the circuits to a closer time where it wouldn't be much trouble for past Doc to repair them. For alternates to be meeting like this, there has to be someone who directed them.
But as far as I know they are the same Martys, not from 2 different original timelines. Their ages are slightly different but both of them supposed to remember TP timeline.
I don't think so, the Marty on the stage has to be TP, the one travelling also is TP and the Marty in the game is supposed to be the TP Marty we known from the movies. Without someone else directing an alternate one, the alternates cannot decide to travel some time different.
Think about this, TP Marty travels and alters past so TPMall becomes LPMall. And we have a LP Marty up to the point TP travelled, he has known the mall as LPMall all along. So without someone interfering and telling him what had happened, can LP Marty make a trip on his own? Can the events be changed only by the actions of the alternates? I believe alternates has to follow prior one's actions. So for example without anyone telling him, LP Marty can not decide to put plutonium case in the car while recording. Or without anyone telling him, he can not change the time on the circuits to a closer time where it wouldn't be much trouble for past Doc to repair them. For alternates to be meeting like this, there has to be someone who directed them.
I agree the TP-LP issue is a bit confusing...for my part, I've always believed that in BTTF1, we're following TP Marry, in BTTF2 and 3 we're following LP Marty (who was formerly TP Marty, and still remembers the original timeline) and in the Game we're following Eastwood Marty (formerly TP and LP Marty, who remembers both previous timelines)...the ripple effect catches up with the time traveller's whenever they return to their own time and updates their memories.
In BTTF2, when 'our' Marty is back in 1955, he doesn't start fading from existence at the time when his past self from BTTF1 must have started to fade, just before George and Lorraine kiss...its because he's LP Marty...George and Lorraine almost not getting together is part of his extended personal timeline...whereas, for TP Marty on stage, they're not kissing was a deviation from his personal timeline and so he was fading...
But I agree, the problem with TP Marty and LP Marty is that, after LP Marty goes back to 1955 and TP Marty returns FROM 1955, there is only one Marty left ergo they have essentially 'merged' and become one person.
Which is why I used the example of Marty-A who hypothetically must have existed in BTTF2.
I don't see why there would HAVE to be someone else to cause those Marty's to go back in time...
Let's look at it this way...
(For simplicity's sake we'll call the three Marty's Marty1, Marty2 and Marty3)...
In the 'original' timeline, our Marty grows up to become Marty1. He discovers something wrong with the future, so he goes back to 1986, creating a new timeline.
In this second timeline, owing to whatever changes made by Marty1, our Marty grows up to become Marty2...for some reason, even HE ends up going back to 1986, at precisely the same point of time he remembers Marty1 visiting him (maybe to warn his younger self not to listen to Marty1). This creates a third timeline.
In the third timeline, both Marty1 AND Marty2 appear, and owing to the changes they make, our Marty grows up to become Marty3...even HE decides to go back to 1986, at the time he remembers being visited by Marty1 and Marty2, because he wants to warn his younger self against them. This creates the timeline we actually see at the end of the game.
Now, obviously, the future isn't written for 'our' Marty...so he can choose to become either of the three or none of them...but the past HAS been written for each of the future Marty's...the problem is that there is only one timeline (at a time anyway) and all of them has come from different timelines which have been erased...but being outside their time, they are immune to the ripple effect.
I think sometime after the three Marty's return to the future, it will be a future which at least two of them are unfamiliar with (or possibly all of them are) based on the choices 'our' Marty makes...and after a while, unless they can restore their own timelines, they will all be erased...
In this second timeline, owing to whatever changes made by Marty1, our Marty grows up to become Marty2...for some reason, even HE ends up going back to 1986, at precisely the same point of time he remembers Marty1 visiting him (maybe to warn his younger self not to listen to Marty1). This creates a third timeline.
But what their reasons can be? In Marty2 and Marty3's POVs, everything is normal. There's no way for them to know if anything is changed, unless a third party informs them. Or perhaps Marty1 met them somehow, but Marty3 said "we meet at last" didn't he? I think it is the first time he is seeing the other two.
But what their reasons can be? In Marty2 and Marty3's POVs, everything is normal. There's no way for them to know if anything is changed, unless a third party informs them. Or perhaps Marty1 met them somehow, but Marty3 said "we meet at last" didn't he? I think it is the first time he is seeing the other two.
Marty2 and Marty3 may have had other reasons to make their jumps back.
The three Marty's are a somewhat different case from TP Marty and LP Marty...in that case, LP Marty makes the same trip back as TP Marty did and so the two 'merge' in a sense (as in, LP Marty is erased and replaced by TP Marty, who will later gain the erased LP Marty's memories)...whereas, with the 3 Marty's, they've each made seperate trips.
Let's look at it this way...suppose Marty2 remembered being visited by Marty1 as a teenager...Marty1 asked him to do something which resulted in his current timeline; but Marty2 isn't satisfied with how his life has turned out thanks to Marty1's interference...so he decides to go back in time to just after he remembers meeting Marty1 as a teenager...to warn his past self against Marty1...
So he goes back and does so...now, because of the presence of two future versions of himself, 'our' Marty has a different future from both of them...he becomes Marty3. But for some reason, even he is unhappy with how his life has turned out and blames Marty1 and Marty2 for messing up his life when he was a teenager...so he goes back to just shortly after he remembers them showing up...which leads to the end of the game.
here's another way to think about it; biff went back to 1955 from 2015 of a timeline which has been destroyed. But that time travel still happened as we did see it. Let's say right now (which is a different timeline) 2015 biff goes back to 1955; you'd have two different 2015 biffs in the same 1955. The timeline changes again to a different 2015 and THAT biff goes back to 1955 as well; pretty much the exact same scenario as what we saw at the end of the game.
And also keep in mind we have no clue at what point in the future those marty's come from; they may not be the same age or from the same year
I'm a little bit confused here. So there's the original time-line they're trying to fix, right? Every time they do something in the past it will reflect on their original timeline.
How could then the three Martie's come back to the original timeline from three completely different futures?
here's another way to think about it; biff went back to 1955 from 2015 of a timeline which has been destroyed. But that time travel still happened as we did see it. Let's say right now (which is a different timeline) 2015 biff goes back to 1955; you'd have two different 2015 biffs in the same 1955. The timeline changes again to a different 2015 and THAT biff goes back to 1955 as well; pretty much the exact same scenario as what we saw at the end of the game.
And also keep in mind we have no clue at what point in the future those marty's come from; they may not be the same age or from the same year
Yeah, you're dead right.
The future isn't written, at least from the POV of those native to the past...the future Marty travels to from October 26th 1985 is different from the future he would find if he travelled from October 27th 1985...in fact, everyday, based on the choices Marty makes, the future he travels to would be different...
But the past IS written, at least until its changed. And this includes the actions of time traveller's in the past, even time traveller's who originate from timelines which no longer exist.
I'm a little bit confused here. So there's the original time-line they're trying to fix, right? Every time they do something in the past it will reflect on their original timeline.
How could then the three Martie's come back to the original timeline from three completely different futures?
There's another extensive thread on the subject called 'About the end'...I strongly recommend you read that.
And the timeline they return to in the end is not really the 'original' timeline they start of with at the beginning of the Game...its a timeline that has been altered by all the actions of Marty and Doc in 1931 throughout all five episodes...and the 'original' timeline at the beginning of the Game itself is not REALLY the 'original' timeline, but rather the timeline Marty ended up with after all the time travels in the movies.
So what you are saying is in other words, alternates have their own kind of free will. They can choose to travel anywhere, anytime completely on their own. They can make trips that the original haven't and survive without getting erased since being from a different lifespan. I think this aproach completely messes up the already confusing fiction of BTTF. There really is no way for Doc&YoungMarty to set things right anymore. Whereever&whenever they go and do now, those 3 Martys are still there and they have a little more time. Sitting without doing anything and just waiting to get erased is not something they would do for sure. They will travel also and continue to mess up even more and in the end it will all be just chaos it seems.
So what you are saying is in other words, alternates have their own kind of free will. They can choose to travel anywhere, anytime completely on their own. They can make trips that the original haven't and survive without getting erased since being from a different lifespan. I think this aproach completely messes up the already confusing fiction of BTTF. There really is no way for Doc&YoungMarty to set things right anymore. Whereever&whenever they go and do now, those 3 Martys are still there and they have a little more time. Sitting without doing anything and just waiting to get erased is not something they would do for sure. They will travel also and continue to mess up even more and in the end it will all be just chaos it seems.
Yes, its true, the other 3 Marty's can potentially mess up the timestream...they've each got Deloreans and don't seem to particularly like each other...
Then again, I don't think its likely any of them will try to travel back to before May 15th 1986...the reason being that everything that has happened to 'our' Marty up to that point is part of each of their personal timelines...if they mess things up before that date, they could endanger their existence even further...that doesn't stop them from fooling around with history AFTER May 15th 1986...but since that's the future to 'our' Marty and Doc, they're not so bothered about it.
We cannot say for sure, they are all desperate to save themselves and they can go anywhere. And it's not just that, we now have alternates that does not depend on the original! Every travel is bound to create a new alternate and who could say for sure that these new alternates won't travel sometime else and mess something else up without anyone noticing? This idea of alternates travelling independent of the original is just calling for trouble.
Also don't forget the fact that this young Marty is no longer the original. The events in the game has taken place but without TTG showing us, original Marty has grown up, messed something up and finally returned to time where events in the game originally ended like. We didn't see the growing up process but original Marty is an old guy now. Marty let FCB get erased claiming he wasn't the original. How can we be so sure that the original Marty who is old now won't try anything serious? He knows his timeline is the original and he would certainly do anything to restore it.
Heck, why should we be supporting the young alternate just because we didn't see the growing up process? Nobody cared for LP since we never met him in person. We never saw the growing up process so we don't know the future Marty either. But still, if he is the original, why should this young Marty succeed and alter things? BTTF would never be one of my favourite movies if LP somehow got TP deleted and took his place. So why now fate of Marty's 12 kids has to be left for that young alternate to decide? I would want to see how original Marty grows up, this young one is at least the 3rd alternate.
We cannot say for sure, they are all desperate to save themselves and they can go anywhere. And it's not just that, we now have alternates that does not depend on the original! Every travel is bound to create a new alternate and who could say for sure that these new alternates won't travel sometime else and mess something else up without anyone noticing? This idea of alternates travelling independent of the original is just calling for trouble.
Also don't forget the fact that this young Marty is no longer the original. The events in the game has taken place but without TTG showing us, original Marty has grown up, messed something up and finally returned to time where events in the game originally ended like. We didn't see the growing up process but original Marty is an old guy now. Marty let FCB get erased claiming he wasn't the original. How can we be so sure that the original Marty who is old now won't try anything serious? He knows his timeline is the original and he would certainly do anything to restore it.
Heck, why should we be supporting the young alternate just because we didn't see the growing up process? Nobody cared for LP since we never met him in person. We never saw the growing up process so we don't know the future Marty either. But still, if he is the original, why should this young Marty succeed and alter things? BTTF would never be one of my favourite movies if LP somehow got TP deleted and took his place. So why now fate of Marty's 12 kids has to be left for that young alternate to decide? I would want to see how original Marty grows up, this young one is at least the 3rd alternate.
Going by your logic, the Marty we've been playing with in the entire game isn't the 'original' Marty. The original Marty is the guy who gets into a race with Needles, breaks his arm in an accident, and ends up having a crappy future where his kids end up as criminals and he ends up fired...by avoiding the race with Needles, Marty becomes a 'young alternate' who, according to you, deserves no sympathy from us.
The series has always been focused on Marty's POV (the POV of 'present-day' Marty of 1985/86 that is)...any other Marty's we see are, from his POV, alternates/duplicates/past or future selves/doppelgangers, and therefore, they must be viewed as such from our POV as well.
An interesting lesson in perspective is BTTF2...in the 1955 segment, the Marty on stage playing Johnny Be Goode is technically also Marty (the very same character who was the protagonist of BTTF1)...but the Marty we're following now is 'BTTF2 Marty', the one who's returned to 1955 and is trying to get the Almanac...and so HE'S the protagonist now, and BTTF1 Marty is from our POV while watching BTTF2, a temporal duplicate, a background character, someone for 'our' Marty to avoid...
Likewise, from 'our' Marty's perspective, these future versions of him are from POSSIBLE futures...and so they must be so from our perspective as well
Going by your logic, the Marty we've been playing with in the entire game isn't the 'original' Marty. The original Marty is the guy who gets into a race with Needles, breaks his arm in an accident, and ends up having a crappy future where his kids end up as criminals and he ends up fired...by avoiding the race with Needles, Marty becomes a 'young alternate' who, according to you, deserves no sympathy from us.
I knew you would say that, but that guy is like a projection or something. It was never revealed but I don't think he remembers going to the future because just like the Mall's name was TP at first, the young one is the first to do the travels there. But in the game it is different. Those future ones are making the travel prior to the young one.
I knew you would say that, but that guy is like a projection or something. It was never revealed but I don't think he remembers going to the future because just like the Mall's name was TP at first, the young one is the first to do the travels there. But in the game it is different. Those future ones are making the travel prior to the young one.
Marty does reference the trip to 2015 early in episode 3. He also knows he marries jennifer (slips it to Danny in episode 2) and obviously recognizes the hoverboard.
Marty mentions to doc how time traveling made the timeline better for his family in episode 3 so presumably he remembers the original timeline. Whether or not he remembers the new timeline is up to interpretation.
Then again, I don't think its likely any of them will try to travel back to before May 15th 1986...the reason being that everything that has happened to 'our' Marty up to that point is part of each of their personal timelines...if they mess things up before that date, they could endanger their existence even further...that doesn't stop them from fooling around with history AFTER May 15th 1986...but since that's the future to 'our' Marty and Doc, they're not so bothered about it.
You're right and at least at the point Doc and Marty return to 1986, everything was fine so they would not want to mess that up.
I dont understand why this concept is so hard to understand after it's been explained; the future CAN affect the past and present, we clearly see this in part II.
Going by your logic, the Marty we've been playing with in the entire game isn't the 'original' Marty. The original Marty is the guy who gets into a race with Needles, breaks his arm in an accident, and ends up having a crappy future where his kids end up as criminals and he ends up fired...by avoiding the race with Needles, Marty becomes a 'young alternate' who, according to you, deserves no sympathy from us.
Actually that's not the original marty, the original marty doesn't even drive a truck. But otherwise I agree with the point you are making. All we know about marty is what happens to him in 1986 and a potential future which has been avoided.
Marty does reference the trip to 2015 early in episode 3. He also knows he marries jennifer (slips it to Danny in episode 2) and obviously recognizes the hoverboard...
Maybe you picked the wrong quote I dunno but I was referring to first FUTURE Marty we saw in 2015 in BTTF2. He obviously doesn't remember going to 2015 and saving his son in his teens because those events hasn't happened yet and there's no concept of prewritten destiny in BTTF. That's what I meant.
You're right and at least at the point Doc and Marty return to 1986, everything was fine so they would not want to mess that up. I dont understand why this concept is so hard to understand after it's been explained; the future CAN affect the past and present, we clearly see this in part II.
Nope that's not right. Your explanations are OK but what I am saying is they are bringing up even worse problems. This is your older scenario;
Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty
If we assume the first one appearing, Marty1, is the original, why do you think he would let the young one to succeed and alter things after he knows his timeline is the original? Do you really think Marty would give up that easily?
Also consider this scenario;
Marty1 doesn't experience the events in the game, he just grew up differently and later messes up something and now comes to 1986. By the way the alternate he created, Marty2, he also doesn't experience the game events. But he changes things by travelling sometime else so now Marty3 is created. Due to the changes, Marty3 is the one who experienced game events. Perhaps he gave Doc the idea of gifting him a family book few days ago somehow. So maybe in previous 2 timelines Doc never went to 1931 and that's why game events didn't take place. So Marty3 is actually the younger one's future at the moment. And now, things weren't OK till just May 15th 1986 for Marty1 and Marty2, everything was OK even prior to that date. So they might decide to travel earlier, which causes more trouble. Now this scenario is totally possible regarding your explanations because alternates can do different things and travels not being tied to the original one.
Actually that's not the original marty, the original marty doesn't even drive a truck.
That's right, the original future Marty have never been revealed because that loser 2015 version is the result of LP timeline. We will never know how would Marty turn up originally, that version is long gone. But now in the game, current future Marty IS revealed. He is not something like a projection or something. He IS the future self. Even though TTG didn't show us the growing process it is Marty1. Just think of your scenario, assuming there isn't any alternate prior to him, he is the original Marty.
Maybe you picked the wrong quote I dunno but I was referring to first FUTURE Marty we saw in 2015 in BTTF2. He obviously doesn't remember going to 2015 and saving his son in his teens because those events hasn't happened yet and there's no concept of prewritten destiny in BTTF. That's what I meant.
Nope that's not right. Your explanations are OK but what I am saying is they are bringing up even worse problems. This is your older scenario;
If we assume the first one appearing, Marty1, is the original, why do you think he would let the young one to succeed and alter things after he knows his timeline is the original? Do you really think Marty would give up that easily?
Also consider this scenario;
Marty1 doesn't experience the events in the game, he just grew up differently and later messes up something and now comes to 1986. By the way the alternate he created, Marty2, he also doesn't experience the game events. But he changes things by travelling sometime else so now Marty3 is created. Due to the changes, Marty3 is the one who experienced game events. Perhaps he gave Doc the idea of gifting him a family book few days ago somehow. So maybe in previous 2 timelines Doc never went to 1931 and that's why game events didn't take place. So Marty3 is actually the younger one's future at the moment. And now, things weren't OK till just May 15th 1986 for Marty1 and Marty2, everything was OK even prior to that date. So they might decide to travel earlier, which causes more trouble. Now this scenario is totally possible regarding your explanations because alternates can do different things and travels not being tied to the original one.
That's right, the original future Marty have never been revealed because that loser 2015 version is the result of LP timeline. We will never know how would Marty turn up originally, that version is long gone. But now in the game, current future Marty IS revealed. He is not something like a projection or something. He IS the future self. Even though TTG didn't show us the growing process it is Marty1. Just think of your scenario, assuming there isn't any alternate prior to him, he is the original Marty.
No offence, but you're needlessly complicating the issue for no reason at all. What began as a discussion on the ending has become instead a discussion on the 'originality' of characters.
There is absolutely no indication that any of the future Marty's haven't experianced the game's events...in fact, they show up on the drive-way as though expecting to find 'our' Marty and Doc there. I grant you its POSSIBLE for any of them to have NOT experianced the game's events, and the explanation you gave is possible, but frankly its unnecessary and needlessly complicated.
To be very frank, as far as 'originality' goes, the whole thing depends on perspective. Technically, if you want to give weight to 'originality', then the original George was a loser, original Lorraine was a depressed overweight alcoholic, original Biff was a jerkish supervisor, original Doc is a corpse and original Clara ended up at the bottom of Clayton Ravine. After about 20-30 minutes into the first film, everyone but Marty ceases to be 'originals' in the strictest sense. And if you want to nitpick further, you can argue that after returning to 1985, even Marty ceases to be 'original' because the life he lives after October 26th 1985 is not the life he would have 'originally' led in an unwritten future.
Remember what I said about perspective? The future isn't written, from the POV of someone in the past. It is however written for people from the future who visit the past. If they 'un-write' their future, they endanger their existence.
When Old Biff appears in 1955, from his perspective, he is visiting the past, which for him, is set in stone. However, now that he is IN the past, he has the freedom to change it. He can do so because he has free will. Young Biff has free will too. He can choose to accept the Almanac and become rich in the future, or he can choose to NOT accept the Almanac and essentially grow up into Old Biff. From his perspective, Old Biff represents a POSSIBLE future self he might grow up to become. From Old Biff's perspective, he IS Biff, and Young Biff IS his younger self. Young Biff can choose to NOT become Old Biff...Old Biff however is irrevocably tied to Young Biff. So, from Young Biff's perspective, he is arguably the only 'original' there because he is master of his own fate...Old Biff is just a projection of his fate...Old Biff however might think of HIMSELF as the original, since he knows he's what Young Biff 'originally' turned out to be.
Well I am not offended but the topic is "about the end". I think this ending is a disaster and am trying to explain why, just like you are making up possible scenarios to explain and support it.
Actually, the part I asked why we should be supporting the younger self was kind of a joke. I am not trying to complicate stuff getting emotional and I am aware that with time travel at hand, the idea of originals has already lost its meaning. Anyway, I believe its clear by now that Marty we have been following has grown, messed something up, TTG has skipped that part, and shown us the next step of events. I am not actually OK with it but if it's off topic to you, let's drop it then.
Now why the ending is a disaster. This is my paragraph from before.
We cannot say for sure, they are all desperate to save themselves and they can go anywhere. And it's not just that, we now have alternates that does not depend on the original! Every travel is bound to create a new alternate and who could say for sure that these new alternates won't travel sometime else and mess something else up without anyone noticing? This idea of alternates travelling independent of the original is just calling for trouble.
In the movies, to prevent further confusion and paradoxes, the alternate was somehow following the prior one's steps especially in terms of time travel. This means the alternate never felt the need for a time travel when the prior one hadn't. Alternates were like somekind of place holders just to fill the time traveller's place until the moment he travels to alter things. Then the alternate would do the same trip and get erased/merged in the process, leaving prior one as the survivor. That kept the things less confusing and prevented paradoxes up to some point.
But now the game introduces us the independant alternates! Don't you see the kind of disaster this aproach causes. It is the ending of the game for example. Every alternate that is created is totally unstable. You can never know for sure if your alternate had travelled and changed something. You can never know if an unwanted change was caused by you or your alternate, or by a further alternate that was created by your alternate. It's a total chaos. How can one possibly sort things out in such circumstance? History would keep changing and soon there would be numerous alternates travelling around.
Well I am not offended but the topic is "about the end". I think this ending is a disaster and am trying to explain why, just like you are making up possible scenarios to explain and support it.
Actually, the part I asked why we should be supporting the younger self was kind of a joke. I am not trying to complicate stuff getting emotional and I am aware that with time travel at hand, the idea of originals has already lost its meaning. Anyway, I believe its clear by now that Marty we have been following has grown, messed something up, TTG has skipped that part, and shown us the next step of events. I am not actually OK with it but if it's off topic to you, let's drop it then.
Now why the ending is a disaster. This is my paragraph from before.
In the movies, to prevent further confusion and paradoxes, the alternate was somehow following the prior one's steps especially in terms of time travel. This means the alternate never felt the need for a time travel when the prior one hadn't. Alternates were like somekind of place holders just to fill the time traveller's place until the moment he travels to alter things. Then the alternate would do the same trip and get erased/merged in the process, leaving prior one as the survivor. That kept the things less confusing and prevented paradoxes up to some point.
But now the game introduces us the independant alternates! Don't you see the kind of disaster this aproach causes. It is the ending of the game for example. Every alternate that is created is totally unstable. You can never know for sure if your alternate had travelled and changed something. You can never know if an unwanted change was caused by you or your alternate, or by a further alternate that was created by your alternate. It's a total chaos. How can one possibly sort things out in such circumstance? History would keep changing and soon there would be numerous alternates travelling around.
Okay, I understand. No sweat. I thought you were a bit serious about the 'original' thing, since you took pains to explain it, but never mind...
That said, I'm beginning to understand what you're driving at.
Logically, as you pointed out, every new timeline created results in an 'alternate' Marty...we tend to focus on TP Marty and LP Marty (and even Marty-A or Hell Valley Marty to an extent) but actually, there would logically be a new version of Marty with every jump into the past...so there would technically be, for instance, an 'Eastwood Marty' as well, who grew up knowing the legend of 'Clint Eastwood' and Eastwood Ravine. And I agree with you that the fate of all these alternate Marty's in every timeline is the same...they will all go back in time at Lone Pine Mall on October 26th 1985 and thereafter be erased in favour of the 'original' TP Marty, who would subsequently merge with/'become' one of these 'new' Marty's as time goes on and the ripple effect catches up (but that's not relevant to this discussion). In fact, the two Bobs have spoken of a Space-time Preservation Effect that tries to keep things as consistent as possible between alternate timeline...this includes trying as far as possible to preserve certain time jumps so as to avoid paradoxes. This explains why LP Marty makes the EXACT same trip back as TP Marty, so as to 'merge' with him (to put it crudely)...
However, your idea of independent alternates comes up with 1985-A...in this timeline, there was no time machine and no experiment at Lone Pine Mall...Marty was in Switzerland and didn't travel back, hence he did not 'merge' with TP Marty the way LP Marty did...if he got his hands on a time machine of his own, he would thus be free to make changes through time jumps which 'our' Marty never made. (Theoretically, the same could apply to the unseen 'nerdish' FCB Marty).
So that's the deal with the 3 Marty's...each comes from a different timeline (as different as 1985-A is from LP 1985 for instance)...and each has made a DIFFERENT time jump back to May 15th 1986...just as LP/Eastwood Doc, FCB Doc AND the final timeline Doc all make different time jumps to various points in 1931.
However, your idea of independent alternates comes up with 1985-A...in this timeline, there was no time machine and no experiment at Lone Pine Mall...Marty was in Switzerland and didn't travel back, hence he did not 'merge' with TP Marty the way LP Marty did...if he got his hands on a time machine of his own, he would thus be free to make changes through time jumps which 'our' Marty never made. (Theoretically, the same could apply to the unseen 'nerdish' FCB Marty).
About that, I believe if it is impossible for an alternate to do the exact same trip, then he is just erased when he reaches that exact moment. So Marty-A or FCB Marty are fated to be erased on the morning of 25 October 1985. In other words they are mentioned since people remember them but they are actually erased when Marty arrived. Or perhaps vice versa, if as a time traveller Marty does not set things right in a period of time granted by ripple effect, he would get erased along with time machine and these alternates would be survived. Either way, we know there's no way for both versions to last.
Also this issue is why I said the following;
So in the game, there has to be someone else who caused those 3 Martys to go back in time. Like someone going back and forth, altering things and then telling those alternate future Martys to go back to 1986. Who could it be?
So for example, in order for Marty-A and FCB Marty to get their hands on a time machine like you said, we need a time traveller. At the end of the game, for those 2 extra Martys to act differently than the original, we should again be needing a time traveller IMO. It could still be the original Marty who influenced the other 2 somehow, but I don't think they could have met in 1986 otherwise because of Space-time Preservation Effect. Also 3rd one doesn't seem to have met them before by saying "we meet at last". So I believe it was someone else who caused this conundrum, maybe Biffs.
About that, I believe if it is impossible for an alternate to do the exact same trip, then he is just erased when he reaches that exact moment. So Marty-A or FCB Marty are fated to be erased on the morning of 25 October 1985. In other words they are mentioned since people remember them but they are actually erased when Marty arrived. Or perhaps vice versa, if as a time traveller Marty does not set things right in a period of time granted by ripple effect, he would get erased along with time machine and these alternates would be survived. Either way, we know there's no way for both versions to last.
Also this issue is why I said the following;
So for example, in order for Marty-A and FCB Marty to get their hands on a time machine like you said, we need a time traveller. At the end of the game, for those 2 extra Martys to act differently than the original, we should again be needing a time traveller IMO. It could still be the original Marty who influenced the other 2 somehow, but I don't think they could have met in 1986 otherwise because of Space-time Preservation Effect. Also 3rd one doesn't seem to have met them before by saying "we meet at last". So I believe it was someone else who caused this conundrum, maybe Biffs.
I understand what you're getting at here and you may be right about your 'alternate time traveler should erase when their previous version returns' theory. There's no proof although I think there is enough disproof of the theory others have had that 2 of the same people can co-exist at the same time as the same age; the timeline changed 4 times during the trilogy and marty has been living for six months in his normal timeline yet never encountered an alternate self.
Anyhow here's the difference in the situations;
Each time the timeline changed in the trilogy it was an alternate PRESENT we were dealing with.
In the situation at the end of the game we are dealing with alternate FUTURES.
I believe the date they return to at the end of the final episode is June 15th 1986 (if it's not lets assume it is). Let's call that critical junction point B
critical junction point A is November 12th 1955. On that day, multiple changes to the timeline happen; the good timeline is created (by george punching out biff) and restored by the almanac burning (or a slightly alternate one created, your choice), and the biffhoric one is also created that day. So in the brief minute between the burning of the almanac and doc getting struck by lightning, we had the exact same timeline up to November 5th 1955 before an alternate one got created with marty from part I entering. November 12th the future timeline changed several times as well as the past timeline once doc gets set to 1885.
So lets say I'm a time traveler with full knowledge of what happens on november 12th 1955 and I time travel to that day (for the purposes of this example we'll ignore what happens in the game). I can restore pretty much any timeline i want;
-if i prevent biff from taking marty out of the car with lorraine (assuming martys original plan would have worked) that would likely restore the first timeline of part I
-if i prevent doc from getting struck by lightning, that restores the timeline at the end of part I
-if I help Biff retain the almanac, that restores the biffhoric timeline
-if I leave everything alone, that keeps the timeline the way it is at the end of part III
you can apply this concept to junction point B and have the same concept (remember all the time travelers which change things in 1955 come from different timelines and 2 different years. And with rejuvenation clinics in the future its certainly possible for marty to look the exact same).
Now here's my unconfirmed theory of what we saw at the en
-black delorean marty was from the earliest timeline and first to go to 1986, blue delorean marty was the second one to go back to 1986, and silver delorean marty was the one from the last timeline created. So there was at one point a timeline with only black delorean marty in 1986 and one previous timeline with black and blue marty's.
Why do I have this theory? It makes sense that they arrive in reverse chronological order as each is trying to one up the other one. Ie. if my theory were correct, blue delorean marty knows black marty shows up at 12:01 so he shows up at 12:00. Silver marty knows both of this so he shows up at 11:59 (remember they cant arrive much earlier since doc and marty just returned). Also each one we see seems more angry than the last over the timeline changes (and the reality is someone who is a result of a changed timeline doesnt have the same right to be angry as someone who's timeline wre changed).
Now it does seem the timelines have been changed back and forth several times as this is what they are arguing about but the changes are probably IN the future since this is the first time doc and marty are learning about it.
Reverse order is also possible like you said. But that's not really the issue. sn939 said writers mentioned a Space-Time Preservation Effect. If STPE really exists, and it should since it was the writers said that, then let's reconsider your last scenario. (Not saying this specifically against your last scenario, ordering doesn't matter)
Sometime in the future, Black causes a problem and travels to 1986. Now the Blue can not travel when he is older than Black, because by that time he would have jumped like LP at the same age and get erased due to STPE. So Blue has to travel when he is younger than Black in order to stack up. But again, because of STPE, he shouldn't have felt the need to do so. STPE somehow ensures the alternate does the exact same trip at the exact same time, and gets rid of the alternate.
The only posibility for the alternate to do a jump younger than the prior and stack up is, there has to be some kind of interference by a time traveler in the alternate's life.
Reverse order is also possible like you said. But that's not really the issue. sn939 said writers mentioned a Space-Time Preservation Effect. If STPE really exists, and it should since it was the writers said that, then let's reconsider your last scenario. (Not saying this specifically against your last scenario, ordering doesn't matter)
Sometime in the future, Black causes a problem and travels to 1986. Now the Blue can not travel when he is older than Black, because by that time he would have jumped like LP at the same age and get erased due to STPE. So Blue has to travel when he is younger than Black in order to stack up. But again, because of STPE, he shouldn't have felt the need to do so. STPE somehow ensures the alternate does the exact same trip at the exact same time, and gets rid of the alternate.
The only posibility for the alternate to do a jump younger than the prior and stack up is, there has to be some kind of interference by a time traveler in the alternate's life.
I see what you mean, but the Space-time Preservation Effect doesn't ensure 100% that the alternate follows the same path as the original...it just TRIES to ensure it.
The SPE, based on what the Bobs said, is like a rubber-band. You stretch it to an extent, it snaps back. You stretch it FAR too much, it breaks.
Consider this phenomenon in light of BTTF1...when Marty prevents his parent's first meeting, he has stretched the 'rubber-band' of time to such an extent that it is in imminent danger of breaking completely, resulting in a timeline where neither he nor his siblings are ever born. However, he manages to remedy the situation, such that the rubber-band is able to 'snap back'-this 'snapped-back' timeline is the LP timeline...while the McFly's lead much better and happier lives, their family follows more or less the same path as that in the original TP timeline to some extent...George and Lorraine have three children, Marty grows up to be more or less the same, with the same decorations in his room, the same interest in music, the same girlfriend (even the same taste in car, though this time, he can afford it)...and of course, most importantly, the friendship with Doc. The scene at LP Mall plays out EXACTLY as it did in TP Mall at the start of the movie, and LP Marty goes back EXACTLY the same way as TP Marty, and essentially 'becomes/merges with' him, because it is reasonably POSSIBLE for the SPE to maintain those events...as thanks to Marty's intervention, the 'rubber-band' of history was able to snap back, albeit slightly deformed from its original state, but still able to perform the same functions.
But with 1985-A its different...with 1985-A, Biff stretches the rubber-band to such an extent that it snaps, causing the timeline to 'skew off into a tangent'. Because the continuum has been disrupted SO severely...the SPE cannot ensure that Marty-A follows the same path as TP Marty and LP Marty. In the new path he follows, Marty isn't even IN Hill Valley on the night of October 26th 1985...so he DOESN'T go back in time and 'merge' with the 'previous' Marty's. He becomes what you call an 'independent alternate'. And if this Marty gains access to a time machine of his own (maybe he breaks into the imprisoned Doc's lab and finds a completed Delorean hidden away somewhere), he could make a time jump back to 1955 (or any other date for that matter), which TP/LP Marty never made.
There's a reason why Doc goes out of his way to label 1985-A as an 'alternate reality', whereas one could argue that every time jump to the past creates an alternate timeline...its because, in the case of all the other timelines, despite subtle changes, on the whole, everything is more or less the same as it was in the TP and/or LP timelines. 1985-A was the only timeline in the films wherein events diverged SO drastically, such that Marty and Doc's destinies were COMPLETELY changed...
Whereas, in contrast, if you look at the final 'Eastwood' timeline...its different in many respects from the LP timeline (the ravine's name and the legend surrounding it has changed, Clara is alive and married to Doc, Biff remembers receiving the Almanac and having it stolen from him by Calvin Klien, he had TWO manure truck crashes, Doc encountered Marty in 1955 for a second time et all), yet superficially, they're both identical...so the Eastwood timeline is not really perceived as an 'alternate timeline' by the characters, but rather as a 'restored LP timeline'.
After reading all of these, I still have only the vaguest idea of what LP and TP mean. Thanks to this latest post, I now know which acronymn fits with which timeline, but I still have no clue what the letters actually stand for.
Comments
Same spoilers for everyone.
On topic:
I can think of a lot. Kid Tannen had, in 1931, already killed countless people who were in his way (as evidenced in the speakeasy caricatures). We simply must assume that (a) in 1931, he would have to get at least life in prison and no chance of parole, (b) Edna knew this and would never even come close to this murderer and (c) even if Tannen did get out of prison and Edna would somehow start to like him, we're still looking at some solid 30 to 40 years in prison, leaving Edna alone in that time; and that beats the psychological purpose of this story development. Edna was "given" Kid to lessen Marty's and the player's possible bad conscience by taking Doc "away from her". This failed; and possibly as point (d) Biff Tannen is still conceived, so according to TTG's established history, Kid would still have to break out of prison for three hours in ca. 1937, thus lengthening his incarceration.
Secondly, also from a storytelling point of view, the character of Kid Tannen is beyond repair. Even if Tannen miraculously found his way to a better self, the player would have to SEE that development, at least the beginning of it, in the game. Nothing like that occurred here, making the Edna-Kid pairing even harder to swallow.
1st Marty: - kind of how regular marty should turn out; married to jen and has er... 12 kids(?) = result of episode 5 version of 1986.
2nd marty: - blue marty talks about being married to tiff tannen. He could be from the future of FCB timeline who never marries jen.
3rd Marty: - this could be the one from the timeline ruled by the tannen family. All the running from mob thugs have toughened him up.
Or it could all be a joke, which I enjoyed just as much
In the trip back to 1955 in part II we see Marty from part I (twin pines mall) as well as biff from 2015 lone pines mall timeline despite the fact that both these timelines were not current one and biff may be dead by 2015 in that timeline.
In episodes 3 and 4 of the game which were FCB timeline, there is plenty of evidence of 'old doc' still making the trip to 1931 (him being in FCB's picture, the fact everyone still remembers Carl Sagan)
So I'm sure we are in agreement that 2015 will not play out the same way we saw in part II due to changes to the timeline. So lets say in the current version of the timeline, biff gets a time machine again in 2015 and travels back to november 12th 1955, we'd have 2 different versions of Biff from 2 timelines. So this is the same rationale you can use for the 3 marty's.
I agree with you 100%. This is the same example I use to explain how multiple timelines can affect the final timeline, even if those timelines have been erased.
Hell, even in 1885 in BTTF3, Doc and Marty have both arrived from different timelines. Doc has arrived from the repaired Lone Pine timeline (where the ravine is named Clayton Ravine, the Delorean wasn't in the mine and there was no tombstone). Marty arrives from the 'Shonash' timeline (where the ravine is named Shonash Ravine (though Marty remembers the original timeline), the Delorean was in the mine and there was a tombstone). The arrival of Doc from the Lone Pine timeline, combined with that of Marty from the Shonash timeline, results in the Eastwood timeline. Now, the timelines both Doc and Marty arrived from have been erased, and yet their actions (and in Marty's case, what he learned in the erased Shonash timeline) are instrumental in the creation of the Eastwood timeline.
Yes there were 2 Martys in BTTF2 1955 but there's a question too; which Marty was that on the stage, TP or LP or even another Marty?
I personally think LP has to get erased with his first trip because if he didn't, TP Marty would eventually have to get erased. Also if LP didn't get erased, events in 1955 would now be slightly different since LP Marty is a slightly different guy. This would mean with every trip of the next alternate, events in the past are slightly changed so it renders things much more complex, more suitable for paradoxes. Therefore I guess we all believe it was TP Marty in BTTF2 1955 on the stage.
So I think this alternate selves coexisting issue never took place in the movies.
Also I always believed that there has to be an "original" who is making the first trip in BTTF universe. And alternate younger selves somehow get erased when they reach that moment in their life spans. If original somehow endangers his existance, he gets erased.
So I really don't get how is it possible. 2 of those Martys shouldn't be able to appear at the end of the game.
Yes i'm well aware normally we see things from the earliest version of the timestream but remember the future always trumps the past. So from docs perspective he wouldnt remember the original timeline where he's not visited by marty in 1955. Likewise even though a timeline existed where marty is not visited by his future self in 1986, marty would remember this (or the timelines where he was only visited by 1 or 2 versions of himself). If you asked these future martys what they remember on June 15th 1986 they'd each remember either not being visited by a future self or only 1 or 2 future selves growing up.
Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty
Now keep in mind that because they are time displaced, they wouldnt fade out. So silver marty would return to his present and find it's now the blue timeline and then bue marty would return to his present and find its the black timeline. Depending on what events cause the timelines to change, it's possible this 3 keep going back and back to restore their respective timelines. Eventually they all arrive on this date because it is the earliest they can go (they dont want to intercept marty before he leaves for 1931 to risk a paradox)
4) this is the timeline we see. 3 marty's come from the future. So it's possible that upon seeing the future marty's individual timelines, marty will be able to choose the one he likes best based on the decisions he makes.
The problem is this. In BTTF1, TP Marty goes to 1955 and alters his life. BUT, when that altered LP Marty goes back to 1955 at the end of the film, now there aren't 2 Martys back in 1955! In BTTF2, we don't see 2 younger Martys TP and LP together. For some reason, selves who travel past don't stack up there, only one survives. Others get erased, merged or whatever, but only 1 remains.
Therefore if silver Marty is the earliest one, Blue and Black should have been vanished when they travelled just like LP did. What if Blue and Black are from slightly different life spans? That cannot be because if silver one is the earliest, next alternates have to follow his steps somehow.
Yeah I hope TTG explains this in the future because if this was just a joke, I don't like it. The ending of the TV series Lost was the worst ending that I hated most in my life and now this would become the second, if it's just a joke.
I could have sworn I'd posted a lengthy reply to this earlier buut it seems to have gone missing
Anyways, there is a simple example to prove how two alternate versions of a character from the same approximate point in the future can both co-exist in the past...
Suppose, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty (whether he's TP Marty or LP Marty at this point is irrelevant) is injured escaping Biff or somehow and for some reason cannot make the trip back to 1955 with Doc. But Doc runs into the Marty of 1985-A, the one who's supposed to be in Switzerland and enlists his aid to help repair the timeline (kinda the same thing we see in the game, albeit with Marty and Doc's roles reversed)...so Doc and Marty-A go back to 1955...and everything happens as we see in the film (albeit we're following a different Marty)...up until the Enchantment Under the Sea Dance...and then...Marty-A would see TP Marty on stage, doing all the things we saw Marty do in BTTF1...he would be a totally different version from TP Marty and wouldn't remember doing any of that stuff, yet both Marty's would be able to co-exist until 10:04 pm when TP Marty has to return to the future...
Ok but with this example, there also is another question. It would be Doc who brings those Martys together. Any alternate Marty can not travel in time unless Marty prior to him does so. So in the game, there has to be someone else who caused those 3 Martys to go back in time. Like someone going back and forth, altering things and then telling those alternate future Martys to go back to 1986. Who could it be? I couldn't really get any implication for such individual but I believe Marty alone can not cause such effect.
Look at it this way;
in 1955 marty showed up twice on the same day. The second time doc was there with him but he didn't have to be.
In 1931 we also see an instance of 2 marty's at the court house in episode 2.
So at this point if marty were to revisit either november 12th 1955 or june 13th 1931 we'd have the same result; 3 marty's from 3 different timelines.
Let's use the 1955 example and add to it a 3rd marty which would be the one at the end of episode 5 (let's assume thats where doc and marty go at the end of episode 5)
part I marty is from the timeline twin pines mall exists
part II marty is from the timeline with lone pine mall where kid and edna do NOT get together
game marty is from the timeline where kid and edna hook up which is the current timeline.
Doc can restore either of the timelines which have been overwritten; he can restore part I marty's timeline by preventing marty from saving George from getting hit by Lorraines car (then marty would simply hide in docs house in 1955 for the week and go back to the future)
Doc could also return the timeline to part II marty's timeline. To do this he'd have to go back to 1931 and stop young emmett from getting together with edna; maybe he'd find a way to prevent danny parker from finding 'Carl Sagan' at the beginning of episode 2 so Danny doesn't go crazy and arrests Kid properly.
Keep in mind we dont know what the junction points which splits the path of these 3 marty's we see in the game are. At one time they all had the same timeline and presumably that was after 1986 that the junction point happen. The first one is rambling about his great great grandkids (so probably late 21st century) which likely means one of 2 things; he either went to a rejuvination clinic and is over the age of 100 or he's traveled to his own future and found problems. For instance he could be from the 2040's and travelled to the 2080's and found out there's a problem with his great great grandkids.
I don't think so, the Marty on the stage has to be TP, the one travelling also is TP and the Marty in the game is supposed to be the TP Marty we known from the movies. Without someone else directing an alternate one, the alternates cannot decide to travel some time different.
Think about this, TP Marty travels and alters past so TPMall becomes LPMall. And we have a LP Marty up to the point TP travelled, he has known the mall as LPMall all along. So without someone interfering and telling him what had happened, can LP Marty make a trip on his own? Can the events be changed only by the actions of the alternates? I believe alternates has to follow prior one's actions. So for example without anyone telling him, LP Marty can not decide to put plutonium case in the car while recording. Or without anyone telling him, he can not change the time on the circuits to a closer time where it wouldn't be much trouble for past Doc to repair them. For alternates to be meeting like this, there has to be someone who directed them.
I agree the TP-LP issue is a bit confusing...for my part, I've always believed that in BTTF1, we're following TP Marry, in BTTF2 and 3 we're following LP Marty (who was formerly TP Marty, and still remembers the original timeline) and in the Game we're following Eastwood Marty (formerly TP and LP Marty, who remembers both previous timelines)...the ripple effect catches up with the time traveller's whenever they return to their own time and updates their memories.
In BTTF2, when 'our' Marty is back in 1955, he doesn't start fading from existence at the time when his past self from BTTF1 must have started to fade, just before George and Lorraine kiss...its because he's LP Marty...George and Lorraine almost not getting together is part of his extended personal timeline...whereas, for TP Marty on stage, they're not kissing was a deviation from his personal timeline and so he was fading...
But I agree, the problem with TP Marty and LP Marty is that, after LP Marty goes back to 1955 and TP Marty returns FROM 1955, there is only one Marty left ergo they have essentially 'merged' and become one person.
Which is why I used the example of Marty-A who hypothetically must have existed in BTTF2.
I don't see why there would HAVE to be someone else to cause those Marty's to go back in time...
Let's look at it this way...
(For simplicity's sake we'll call the three Marty's Marty1, Marty2 and Marty3)...
In the 'original' timeline, our Marty grows up to become Marty1. He discovers something wrong with the future, so he goes back to 1986, creating a new timeline.
In this second timeline, owing to whatever changes made by Marty1, our Marty grows up to become Marty2...for some reason, even HE ends up going back to 1986, at precisely the same point of time he remembers Marty1 visiting him (maybe to warn his younger self not to listen to Marty1). This creates a third timeline.
In the third timeline, both Marty1 AND Marty2 appear, and owing to the changes they make, our Marty grows up to become Marty3...even HE decides to go back to 1986, at the time he remembers being visited by Marty1 and Marty2, because he wants to warn his younger self against them. This creates the timeline we actually see at the end of the game.
Now, obviously, the future isn't written for 'our' Marty...so he can choose to become either of the three or none of them...but the past HAS been written for each of the future Marty's...the problem is that there is only one timeline (at a time anyway) and all of them has come from different timelines which have been erased...but being outside their time, they are immune to the ripple effect.
I think sometime after the three Marty's return to the future, it will be a future which at least two of them are unfamiliar with (or possibly all of them are) based on the choices 'our' Marty makes...and after a while, unless they can restore their own timelines, they will all be erased...
Marty2 and Marty3 may have had other reasons to make their jumps back.
The three Marty's are a somewhat different case from TP Marty and LP Marty...in that case, LP Marty makes the same trip back as TP Marty did and so the two 'merge' in a sense (as in, LP Marty is erased and replaced by TP Marty, who will later gain the erased LP Marty's memories)...whereas, with the 3 Marty's, they've each made seperate trips.
Let's look at it this way...suppose Marty2 remembered being visited by Marty1 as a teenager...Marty1 asked him to do something which resulted in his current timeline; but Marty2 isn't satisfied with how his life has turned out thanks to Marty1's interference...so he decides to go back in time to just after he remembers meeting Marty1 as a teenager...to warn his past self against Marty1...
So he goes back and does so...now, because of the presence of two future versions of himself, 'our' Marty has a different future from both of them...he becomes Marty3. But for some reason, even he is unhappy with how his life has turned out and blames Marty1 and Marty2 for messing up his life when he was a teenager...so he goes back to just shortly after he remembers them showing up...which leads to the end of the game.
And also keep in mind we have no clue at what point in the future those marty's come from; they may not be the same age or from the same year
I'm a little bit confused here. So there's the original time-line they're trying to fix, right? Every time they do something in the past it will reflect on their original timeline.
How could then the three Martie's come back to the original timeline from three completely different futures?
Yeah, you're dead right.
The future isn't written, at least from the POV of those native to the past...the future Marty travels to from October 26th 1985 is different from the future he would find if he travelled from October 27th 1985...in fact, everyday, based on the choices Marty makes, the future he travels to would be different...
But the past IS written, at least until its changed. And this includes the actions of time traveller's in the past, even time traveller's who originate from timelines which no longer exist.
There's another extensive thread on the subject called 'About the end'...I strongly recommend you read that.
And the timeline they return to in the end is not really the 'original' timeline they start of with at the beginning of the Game...its a timeline that has been altered by all the actions of Marty and Doc in 1931 throughout all five episodes...and the 'original' timeline at the beginning of the Game itself is not REALLY the 'original' timeline, but rather the timeline Marty ended up with after all the time travels in the movies.
Yes, its true, the other 3 Marty's can potentially mess up the timestream...they've each got Deloreans and don't seem to particularly like each other...
Then again, I don't think its likely any of them will try to travel back to before May 15th 1986...the reason being that everything that has happened to 'our' Marty up to that point is part of each of their personal timelines...if they mess things up before that date, they could endanger their existence even further...that doesn't stop them from fooling around with history AFTER May 15th 1986...but since that's the future to 'our' Marty and Doc, they're not so bothered about it.
Also don't forget the fact that this young Marty is no longer the original. The events in the game has taken place but without TTG showing us, original Marty has grown up, messed something up and finally returned to time where events in the game originally ended like. We didn't see the growing up process but original Marty is an old guy now. Marty let FCB get erased claiming he wasn't the original. How can we be so sure that the original Marty who is old now won't try anything serious? He knows his timeline is the original and he would certainly do anything to restore it.
Heck, why should we be supporting the young alternate just because we didn't see the growing up process? Nobody cared for LP since we never met him in person. We never saw the growing up process so we don't know the future Marty either. But still, if he is the original, why should this young Marty succeed and alter things? BTTF would never be one of my favourite movies if LP somehow got TP deleted and took his place. So why now fate of Marty's 12 kids has to be left for that young alternate to decide? I would want to see how original Marty grows up, this young one is at least the 3rd alternate.
Going by your logic, the Marty we've been playing with in the entire game isn't the 'original' Marty. The original Marty is the guy who gets into a race with Needles, breaks his arm in an accident, and ends up having a crappy future where his kids end up as criminals and he ends up fired...by avoiding the race with Needles, Marty becomes a 'young alternate' who, according to you, deserves no sympathy from us.
The series has always been focused on Marty's POV (the POV of 'present-day' Marty of 1985/86 that is)...any other Marty's we see are, from his POV, alternates/duplicates/past or future selves/doppelgangers, and therefore, they must be viewed as such from our POV as well.
An interesting lesson in perspective is BTTF2...in the 1955 segment, the Marty on stage playing Johnny Be Goode is technically also Marty (the very same character who was the protagonist of BTTF1)...but the Marty we're following now is 'BTTF2 Marty', the one who's returned to 1955 and is trying to get the Almanac...and so HE'S the protagonist now, and BTTF1 Marty is from our POV while watching BTTF2, a temporal duplicate, a background character, someone for 'our' Marty to avoid...
Likewise, from 'our' Marty's perspective, these future versions of him are from POSSIBLE futures...and so they must be so from our perspective as well
Marty does reference the trip to 2015 early in episode 3. He also knows he marries jennifer (slips it to Danny in episode 2) and obviously recognizes the hoverboard.
Marty mentions to doc how time traveling made the timeline better for his family in episode 3 so presumably he remembers the original timeline. Whether or not he remembers the new timeline is up to interpretation.
You're right and at least at the point Doc and Marty return to 1986, everything was fine so they would not want to mess that up.
I dont understand why this concept is so hard to understand after it's been explained; the future CAN affect the past and present, we clearly see this in part II.
Actually that's not the original marty, the original marty doesn't even drive a truck. But otherwise I agree with the point you are making. All we know about marty is what happens to him in 1986 and a potential future which has been avoided.
Nope that's not right. Your explanations are OK but what I am saying is they are bringing up even worse problems. This is your older scenario;
If we assume the first one appearing, Marty1, is the original, why do you think he would let the young one to succeed and alter things after he knows his timeline is the original? Do you really think Marty would give up that easily?
Also consider this scenario;
Marty1 doesn't experience the events in the game, he just grew up differently and later messes up something and now comes to 1986. By the way the alternate he created, Marty2, he also doesn't experience the game events. But he changes things by travelling sometime else so now Marty3 is created. Due to the changes, Marty3 is the one who experienced game events. Perhaps he gave Doc the idea of gifting him a family book few days ago somehow. So maybe in previous 2 timelines Doc never went to 1931 and that's why game events didn't take place. So Marty3 is actually the younger one's future at the moment. And now, things weren't OK till just May 15th 1986 for Marty1 and Marty2, everything was OK even prior to that date. So they might decide to travel earlier, which causes more trouble. Now this scenario is totally possible regarding your explanations because alternates can do different things and travels not being tied to the original one.
That's right, the original future Marty have never been revealed because that loser 2015 version is the result of LP timeline. We will never know how would Marty turn up originally, that version is long gone. But now in the game, current future Marty IS revealed. He is not something like a projection or something. He IS the future self. Even though TTG didn't show us the growing process it is Marty1. Just think of your scenario, assuming there isn't any alternate prior to him, he is the original Marty.
No offence, but you're needlessly complicating the issue for no reason at all. What began as a discussion on the ending has become instead a discussion on the 'originality' of characters.
There is absolutely no indication that any of the future Marty's haven't experianced the game's events...in fact, they show up on the drive-way as though expecting to find 'our' Marty and Doc there. I grant you its POSSIBLE for any of them to have NOT experianced the game's events, and the explanation you gave is possible, but frankly its unnecessary and needlessly complicated.
To be very frank, as far as 'originality' goes, the whole thing depends on perspective. Technically, if you want to give weight to 'originality', then the original George was a loser, original Lorraine was a depressed overweight alcoholic, original Biff was a jerkish supervisor, original Doc is a corpse and original Clara ended up at the bottom of Clayton Ravine. After about 20-30 minutes into the first film, everyone but Marty ceases to be 'originals' in the strictest sense. And if you want to nitpick further, you can argue that after returning to 1985, even Marty ceases to be 'original' because the life he lives after October 26th 1985 is not the life he would have 'originally' led in an unwritten future.
Remember what I said about perspective? The future isn't written, from the POV of someone in the past. It is however written for people from the future who visit the past. If they 'un-write' their future, they endanger their existence.
When Old Biff appears in 1955, from his perspective, he is visiting the past, which for him, is set in stone. However, now that he is IN the past, he has the freedom to change it. He can do so because he has free will. Young Biff has free will too. He can choose to accept the Almanac and become rich in the future, or he can choose to NOT accept the Almanac and essentially grow up into Old Biff. From his perspective, Old Biff represents a POSSIBLE future self he might grow up to become. From Old Biff's perspective, he IS Biff, and Young Biff IS his younger self. Young Biff can choose to NOT become Old Biff...Old Biff however is irrevocably tied to Young Biff. So, from Young Biff's perspective, he is arguably the only 'original' there because he is master of his own fate...Old Biff is just a projection of his fate...Old Biff however might think of HIMSELF as the original, since he knows he's what Young Biff 'originally' turned out to be.
Actually, the part I asked why we should be supporting the younger self was kind of a joke. I am not trying to complicate stuff getting emotional and I am aware that with time travel at hand, the idea of originals has already lost its meaning. Anyway, I believe its clear by now that Marty we have been following has grown, messed something up, TTG has skipped that part, and shown us the next step of events. I am not actually OK with it but if it's off topic to you, let's drop it then.
Now why the ending is a disaster. This is my paragraph from before.
In the movies, to prevent further confusion and paradoxes, the alternate was somehow following the prior one's steps especially in terms of time travel. This means the alternate never felt the need for a time travel when the prior one hadn't. Alternates were like somekind of place holders just to fill the time traveller's place until the moment he travels to alter things. Then the alternate would do the same trip and get erased/merged in the process, leaving prior one as the survivor. That kept the things less confusing and prevented paradoxes up to some point.
But now the game introduces us the independant alternates! Don't you see the kind of disaster this aproach causes. It is the ending of the game for example. Every alternate that is created is totally unstable. You can never know for sure if your alternate had travelled and changed something. You can never know if an unwanted change was caused by you or your alternate, or by a further alternate that was created by your alternate. It's a total chaos. How can one possibly sort things out in such circumstance? History would keep changing and soon there would be numerous alternates travelling around.
Okay, I understand. No sweat. I thought you were a bit serious about the 'original' thing, since you took pains to explain it, but never mind...
That said, I'm beginning to understand what you're driving at.
Logically, as you pointed out, every new timeline created results in an 'alternate' Marty...we tend to focus on TP Marty and LP Marty (and even Marty-A or Hell Valley Marty to an extent) but actually, there would logically be a new version of Marty with every jump into the past...so there would technically be, for instance, an 'Eastwood Marty' as well, who grew up knowing the legend of 'Clint Eastwood' and Eastwood Ravine. And I agree with you that the fate of all these alternate Marty's in every timeline is the same...they will all go back in time at Lone Pine Mall on October 26th 1985 and thereafter be erased in favour of the 'original' TP Marty, who would subsequently merge with/'become' one of these 'new' Marty's as time goes on and the ripple effect catches up (but that's not relevant to this discussion). In fact, the two Bobs have spoken of a Space-time Preservation Effect that tries to keep things as consistent as possible between alternate timeline...this includes trying as far as possible to preserve certain time jumps so as to avoid paradoxes. This explains why LP Marty makes the EXACT same trip back as TP Marty, so as to 'merge' with him (to put it crudely)...
However, your idea of independent alternates comes up with 1985-A...in this timeline, there was no time machine and no experiment at Lone Pine Mall...Marty was in Switzerland and didn't travel back, hence he did not 'merge' with TP Marty the way LP Marty did...if he got his hands on a time machine of his own, he would thus be free to make changes through time jumps which 'our' Marty never made. (Theoretically, the same could apply to the unseen 'nerdish' FCB Marty).
So that's the deal with the 3 Marty's...each comes from a different timeline (as different as 1985-A is from LP 1985 for instance)...and each has made a DIFFERENT time jump back to May 15th 1986...just as LP/Eastwood Doc, FCB Doc AND the final timeline Doc all make different time jumps to various points in 1931.
About that, I believe if it is impossible for an alternate to do the exact same trip, then he is just erased when he reaches that exact moment. So Marty-A or FCB Marty are fated to be erased on the morning of 25 October 1985. In other words they are mentioned since people remember them but they are actually erased when Marty arrived. Or perhaps vice versa, if as a time traveller Marty does not set things right in a period of time granted by ripple effect, he would get erased along with time machine and these alternates would be survived. Either way, we know there's no way for both versions to last.
Also this issue is why I said the following;
So for example, in order for Marty-A and FCB Marty to get their hands on a time machine like you said, we need a time traveller. At the end of the game, for those 2 extra Martys to act differently than the original, we should again be needing a time traveller IMO. It could still be the original Marty who influenced the other 2 somehow, but I don't think they could have met in 1986 otherwise because of Space-time Preservation Effect. Also 3rd one doesn't seem to have met them before by saying "we meet at last". So I believe it was someone else who caused this conundrum, maybe Biffs.
I understand what you're getting at here and you may be right about your 'alternate time traveler should erase when their previous version returns' theory. There's no proof although I think there is enough disproof of the theory others have had that 2 of the same people can co-exist at the same time as the same age; the timeline changed 4 times during the trilogy and marty has been living for six months in his normal timeline yet never encountered an alternate self.
Anyhow here's the difference in the situations;
Each time the timeline changed in the trilogy it was an alternate PRESENT we were dealing with.
In the situation at the end of the game we are dealing with alternate FUTURES.
I believe the date they return to at the end of the final episode is June 15th 1986 (if it's not lets assume it is). Let's call that critical junction point B
critical junction point A is November 12th 1955. On that day, multiple changes to the timeline happen; the good timeline is created (by george punching out biff) and restored by the almanac burning (or a slightly alternate one created, your choice), and the biffhoric one is also created that day. So in the brief minute between the burning of the almanac and doc getting struck by lightning, we had the exact same timeline up to November 5th 1955 before an alternate one got created with marty from part I entering. November 12th the future timeline changed several times as well as the past timeline once doc gets set to 1885.
So lets say I'm a time traveler with full knowledge of what happens on november 12th 1955 and I time travel to that day (for the purposes of this example we'll ignore what happens in the game). I can restore pretty much any timeline i want;
-if i prevent biff from taking marty out of the car with lorraine (assuming martys original plan would have worked) that would likely restore the first timeline of part I
-if i prevent doc from getting struck by lightning, that restores the timeline at the end of part I
-if I help Biff retain the almanac, that restores the biffhoric timeline
-if I leave everything alone, that keeps the timeline the way it is at the end of part III
you can apply this concept to junction point B and have the same concept (remember all the time travelers which change things in 1955 come from different timelines and 2 different years. And with rejuvenation clinics in the future its certainly possible for marty to look the exact same).
Now here's my unconfirmed theory of what we saw at the en
-black delorean marty was from the earliest timeline and first to go to 1986, blue delorean marty was the second one to go back to 1986, and silver delorean marty was the one from the last timeline created. So there was at one point a timeline with only black delorean marty in 1986 and one previous timeline with black and blue marty's.
Why do I have this theory? It makes sense that they arrive in reverse chronological order as each is trying to one up the other one. Ie. if my theory were correct, blue delorean marty knows black marty shows up at 12:01 so he shows up at 12:00. Silver marty knows both of this so he shows up at 11:59 (remember they cant arrive much earlier since doc and marty just returned). Also each one we see seems more angry than the last over the timeline changes (and the reality is someone who is a result of a changed timeline doesnt have the same right to be angry as someone who's timeline wre changed).
Now it does seem the timelines have been changed back and forth several times as this is what they are arguing about but the changes are probably IN the future since this is the first time doc and marty are learning about it.
Sometime in the future, Black causes a problem and travels to 1986. Now the Blue can not travel when he is older than Black, because by that time he would have jumped like LP at the same age and get erased due to STPE. So Blue has to travel when he is younger than Black in order to stack up. But again, because of STPE, he shouldn't have felt the need to do so. STPE somehow ensures the alternate does the exact same trip at the exact same time, and gets rid of the alternate.
The only posibility for the alternate to do a jump younger than the prior and stack up is, there has to be some kind of interference by a time traveler in the alternate's life.
I see what you mean, but the Space-time Preservation Effect doesn't ensure 100% that the alternate follows the same path as the original...it just TRIES to ensure it.
The SPE, based on what the Bobs said, is like a rubber-band. You stretch it to an extent, it snaps back. You stretch it FAR too much, it breaks.
Consider this phenomenon in light of BTTF1...when Marty prevents his parent's first meeting, he has stretched the 'rubber-band' of time to such an extent that it is in imminent danger of breaking completely, resulting in a timeline where neither he nor his siblings are ever born. However, he manages to remedy the situation, such that the rubber-band is able to 'snap back'-this 'snapped-back' timeline is the LP timeline...while the McFly's lead much better and happier lives, their family follows more or less the same path as that in the original TP timeline to some extent...George and Lorraine have three children, Marty grows up to be more or less the same, with the same decorations in his room, the same interest in music, the same girlfriend (even the same taste in car, though this time, he can afford it)...and of course, most importantly, the friendship with Doc. The scene at LP Mall plays out EXACTLY as it did in TP Mall at the start of the movie, and LP Marty goes back EXACTLY the same way as TP Marty, and essentially 'becomes/merges with' him, because it is reasonably POSSIBLE for the SPE to maintain those events...as thanks to Marty's intervention, the 'rubber-band' of history was able to snap back, albeit slightly deformed from its original state, but still able to perform the same functions.
But with 1985-A its different...with 1985-A, Biff stretches the rubber-band to such an extent that it snaps, causing the timeline to 'skew off into a tangent'. Because the continuum has been disrupted SO severely...the SPE cannot ensure that Marty-A follows the same path as TP Marty and LP Marty. In the new path he follows, Marty isn't even IN Hill Valley on the night of October 26th 1985...so he DOESN'T go back in time and 'merge' with the 'previous' Marty's. He becomes what you call an 'independent alternate'. And if this Marty gains access to a time machine of his own (maybe he breaks into the imprisoned Doc's lab and finds a completed Delorean hidden away somewhere), he could make a time jump back to 1955 (or any other date for that matter), which TP/LP Marty never made.
There's a reason why Doc goes out of his way to label 1985-A as an 'alternate reality', whereas one could argue that every time jump to the past creates an alternate timeline...its because, in the case of all the other timelines, despite subtle changes, on the whole, everything is more or less the same as it was in the TP and/or LP timelines. 1985-A was the only timeline in the films wherein events diverged SO drastically, such that Marty and Doc's destinies were COMPLETELY changed...
Whereas, in contrast, if you look at the final 'Eastwood' timeline...its different in many respects from the LP timeline (the ravine's name and the legend surrounding it has changed, Clara is alive and married to Doc, Biff remembers receiving the Almanac and having it stolen from him by Calvin Klien, he had TWO manure truck crashes, Doc encountered Marty in 1955 for a second time et all), yet superficially, they're both identical...so the Eastwood timeline is not really perceived as an 'alternate timeline' by the characters, but rather as a 'restored LP timeline'.
Weird.
Yeah it is.
But it is indeed fitting...after all, the very FIRST difference we observe between the 'old' 1985 and the 'new' one is the changed name of the Mall...