But it is indeed fitting...after all, the very FIRST difference we observe between the 'old' 1985 and the 'new' one is the changed name of the Mall...
it's also the first thing marty does in 1955 which changes the future (running over the tree).
I just figure at some point in the future one of the Marty's causes a change which changes to the timeline and creates alternate realities much like the Biffhoric one.
Here's another way to think of it;
suppose the biffhoric Marty and swizerland and the FCB math geek marty are happy with their lives and find out what 'our marty' has been through/up to and these 2 marty's have access to time machines. That could create the same scenario we see; 3 of the same person from different timelines fighting to save their own. The difference being the 3 marty's we see are older and have had more years of time travel at their disposal and thus more time to travel to. Also they'd travel to a point where their younger self existed wheras our marty and Biffhoric marty would be battling in 1955 and our marty and FCB marty would be battling in 1931.
it's also the first thing marty does in 1955 which changes the future (running over the tree).
I just figure at some point in the future one of the Marty's causes a change which changes to the timeline and creates alternate realities much like the Biffhoric one.
Here's another way to think of it;
suppose the biffhoric Marty and swizerland and the FCB math geek marty are happy with their lives and find out what 'our marty' has been through/up to and these 2 marty's have access to time machines. That could create the same scenario we see; 3 of the same person from different timelines fighting to save their own. The difference being the 3 marty's we see are older and have had more years of time travel at their disposal and thus more time to travel to. Also they'd travel to a point where their younger self existed wheras our marty and Biffhoric marty would be battling in 1955 and our marty and FCB marty would be battling in 1931.
Yeah, that's kinda what I had in mind.
Truth be told though, I don't think the two Bobs really had the whole 'alternate selves' thing figured out, especially when they made the first movie. In BTTF1, time travel itself was a plot device and nothing more...it didn't really matter WHAT time travel theory BTTF followed, because it didn't really affect one's comprehension of the plot on the basic level...
However, with BTTF2, time travel became very much the focus of the film...and BTTF's lack of a consistent time travel theory became a bane. And so we had all the convoluted paradoxes, with the ones arising from 1985-A being perhaps the biggest ones. The Bobs explained away the alternate 1985 using the parallel dimensions theory within the film itself, though it was pretty clear that BTTF DIDN'T operate on that model (both in the films itself and what the Bobs have mentioned in other interviews)...and so this led to the whole issue of whether or not Marty has an alternate self in the new timeline, and if he did, would this alternate self have time travelled or not? A question to which they never DID give a satisfactory answer...
Truth be told though, I don't think the two Bobs really had the whole 'alternate selves' thing figured out, especially when they made the first movie. In BTTF1, time travel itself was a plot device and nothing more...it didn't really matter WHAT time travel theory BTTF followed, because it didn't really affect one's comprehension of the plot on the basic level...
However, with BTTF2, time travel became very much the focus of the film...and BTTF's lack of a consistent time travel theory became a bane. And so we had all the convoluted paradoxes, with the ones arising from 1985-A being perhaps the biggest ones. The Bobs explained away the alternate 1985 using the parallel dimensions theory within the film itself, though it was pretty clear that BTTF DIDN'T operate on that model (both in the films itself and what the Bobs have mentioned in other interviews)...and so this led to the whole issue of whether or not Marty has an alternate self in the new timeline, and if he did, would this alternate self have time travelled or not? A question to which they never DID give a satisfactory answer...
You're right about how the films were planned; the first film was mainly a story about a teen who travels back in time and stops his parents from meeting. Time travel was the means to do so and they probably decided to improve the timeline to give it a happy ending. Part II really explored time travel the most.
It's never explained what happens to alternate selves during alternate timelines. I don't believe they co-exist because if they did, there should have been 2 marty's in the six month between the films and games. Its likely the ones native to that timeline disappear when the orginals return to the timeline. And if I am right, you could use the following rationales for what we saw; 2 of these 3 future marty's we see know they are about to be erased so this is why they are going back in time; to prevent so.
You're right about how the films were planned; the first film was mainly a story about a teen who travels back in time and stops his parents from meeting. Time travel was the means to do so and they probably decided to improve the timeline to give it a happy ending. Part II really explored time travel the most.
It's never explained what happens to alternate selves during alternate timelines. I don't believe they co-exist because if they did, there should have been 2 marty's in the six month between the films and games. Its likely the ones native to that timeline disappear when the orginals return to the timeline. And if I am right, you could use the following rationales for what we saw; 2 of these 3 future marty's we see know they are about to be erased so this is why they are going back in time; to prevent so.
There wouldn't be 2 Marty's in the six months between the games...the Marty 'native' to the timeline at the end of BTTF3/start of the game would have gone back in time on October 26th 1985 and 'become' 'our' Marty anyway. So there is only 1 Marty.
Regarding the issue with alternates, Episode 3 does seem to strongly suggest there is an alternate Marty lurking about though we never see him. In any timeline where there should be an alternate Marty, that Marty is alluded to, but we never really see him, leaving the whole issue open-ended, though I personally feel its likely two Marty's can co-exist, though the ripple effect might eventually erase the one not belonging to the timeline.
Ultimately, it depends on the extent to which the timeline deviates from the TP/LP history...in all the variants of the LP-timeline, Marty goes back in time on October 26th 1985, and thus TP Marty is able to be 'incorporated' into the timeline as he is the only Marty left. In any timeline where Marty DOES NOT make the trip back, there should be another alternate Marty around and its possible that eventually, TP Marty would be erased.
Not sure if this was mentioned before but in EP1 Jail, Doc mentions his family was planning to meet Marty and Jennifer in 2011. Perhaps it has some relation to this.
Not sure if this was mentioned before but in EP1 Jail, Doc mentions his family was planning to meet Marty and Jennifer in 2011. Perhaps it has some relation to this.
Its of no real significance...except that Doc and Clara have obviously visited Marty and Jennifer in the future, which is not so surprising...I infact think its entirely possible Doc visited a future Marty both on his initial trip to 2015 and later when he returned to the future in the time train to get it hover converted.
Its of no real significance...except that Doc and Clara have obviously visited Marty and Jennifer in the future, which is not so surprising...I infact think its entirely possible Doc visited a future Marty both on his initial trip to 2015 and later when he returned to the future in the time train to get it hover converted.
I wonder if doc does in fact visit Marty in his initial 2015 trip. He obviously does look up Marty as per his request but do they interact? I'd imagine in the timeline of the children getting arrested Doc outright tells Marty whats going on so Doc can help Marty (unless this creates a paradox)
I wonder if doc does in fact visit Marty in his initial 2015 trip. He obviously does look up Marty as per his request but do they interact? I'd imagine in the timeline of the children getting arrested Doc outright tells Marty whats going on so Doc can help Marty (unless this creates a paradox)
I actually feel that Doc DID in fact visit 2015 Marty, and in fact, learned all about the circumstances behind Marty Jr. and Marlene's incarceration from him (though he may already have learned from the newspaper archives)...I think its far more likely he learns about the race with Needles, Marty's 'chicken problem' and the accident, from Marty himself, as that's the sort of thing he was unlikely to learn about from newspapers.
Who knows...maybe 2015 Marty was the one who begged Doc to set things right...and Doc, since he owed a debt to Marty for saving his life, agreed...
The problem is this. In BTTF1, TP Marty goes to 1955 and alters his life. BUT, when that altered LP Marty goes back to 1955 at the end of the film, now there aren't 2 Martys back in 1955! In BTTF2, we don't see 2 younger Martys TP and LP together. For some reason, selves who travel past don't stack up there, only one survives. Others get erased, merged or whatever, but only 1 remains.
Therefore if silver Marty is the earliest one, Blue and Black should have been vanished when they travelled just like LP did. What if Blue and Black are from slightly different life spans? That cannot be because if silver one is the earliest, next alternates have to follow his steps somehow.
Yeah I hope TTG explains this in the future because if this was just a joke, I don't like it. The ending of the TV series Lost was the worst ending that I hated most in my life and now this would become the second, if it's just a joke.
I agree, BttF1 seemed to suggest that Marty going back in time at the end wasn't a creation of an alternate Marty since this was an alternate timeline, but instead that Marty's going back in time in the future was crucial to the change in the timeline. Although confusing and silly, one could say that the Marty we see at the ending is the SAME exact Marty who knew his dad as a wimp and etc concerning mom and siblings, but after he returns to the future suddenly the time stream is hit with the ripple affect and this Marty - the one and only Marty - sees for the first time how the time stream has been altered when Doc is alive and he returns home to his family. It's really confusing, but I think it's best not to try too hard to make sense of it. Basically, he should have been a different person who went back in time at the end of the movie (having had different childhood experiences due to parents who acted differently; for example, it sure changed his brother and sister), but he wasn't because that's not how the script writers wrote it. In other words, it's not perfect. It's a good movie. It's a good game. Don't expect things to make perfect sense, because it won't. That's my stand on the issue, anyway. :-)
But I agree. I REALLY didn't like the ending because it made no sense to have multiple Marty's. I saw it as just a joke and I don't expect it to be explained in the next game. As a matter of fact, I don't want it to be explained either. That's how much I disliked the joke. I believe it was a joke because it allowed them to cameo Michael J. Fox as Marty again (but a Marty at Michael's real age, I assume). And I don't see it as being explained in the next game because this final episode ends with Doc telling Marty to surprise or "thrill" him on where they are going to next. At the end of BttF1 Doc says they need to go to the future to fix it and then Jennifer gets into the car with them. The script writers, when making BttF2, said that this ending was a joke because they never expected the movie to have a sequel and that they were displeased as the BttF1 ending locked them into going to the future with Jennifer and they stated that had they left the ending of BttF1 more open they then could have taken Doc and Marty ANYWHERE and ANYTIME they chose. The ending of TTG's BttF: The Game pokes fun at this by ending openly so that the next game's story isn't locked into any story or any place or any time. It's open now to whatever they want.
Other thoughts of mine are as follows:
My thought is that the multiple Martys will be erased from time as soon as the time stream catches up to each of them (ala the ripple effect). When this happens the latest Marty will remain (the black jacket Marty?). But this isn't true according to the rest of the movie and game mechanics. Just like in BttF1 and BttF The Game Episode 1, Marty fades out once he's endangered his own future. However he only fades out if he causes himself to be dead or never born. If he still lives in the future in order to time travel to the past then he is the same. His memories and experiences and personality do not change, only whether he exists or not. Then again, consider when Edna destroys Hill Valley? Marty should have faded out because it made it largely improbable for his parents to meet and for him to be born, and certainly impossible for him to have met Doc Brown and gone back in time to begin with to 1955. However this is an example to where we could say that the ripple effect had not yet traveled to the future in order to cause Marty or Doc to fade out. You'd think this would be instantaneous though seeing as how the entirety of Hill Valley changed around them after Edna time-jumped in 1931. But, returning to the 3-Marty thought: Therefore all three of these Martys exist without fading out because nothing occurs previously that kills them or makes him never born. My guess is that all three of these Martys exist because one of them goes back in time to change his own time line because he doesn't like the life he has lead but accidentally creates an alternate future that goes back in time to change it back which then causes yet another time line, the rough and tough "black jacket Marty." Will any previous Marty fade out? Probably. The DeLorean in the final Episode finally faded out, but it took a long time. The DeLorean used by the final Alternate Doc was the same "copied" DeLorean, however Marty never needed to go back in time in order to save Doc to begin with - which REALLY screws up the time line as nothing in the past would have ever occurred to change the time line in the first place; hopefully reinforcing my belief that the original time travel is not affected by the change in the time stream except for causing himself to cease to exist - and thus the DeLorean was taken back to the future with Doc, who lived for 6 months until the time Marty originally went back in time and new Doc won the key to the city (how convenient it was that close to the correct time for Marty). In this alternate time stream only one question remains for me. Well, one important one. There may be more. The obvious question is this:
In BttF1 we see old 1985 Marty go back in time to 1955 as the current Marty rushes from 1955 to slightly altered 1985 and to the side of the should-be-dead altered Doc. The movie explains that Marty still went back in time, meaning that there is only one Marty in 1985 and that he still went back in time and changed the past. In BttF2 the movie and BttF The Game Episodes 2 and 3 there are alternate Marties mentioned - a Marty sent to Switzerland (Sweden?) by his step-dad Biff Tannen, a Marty run out of town by the Tannen crime family, and a Marty that is a Dungeon and Dragons nerd out of town at a lake. Each scenario explains that there is possibly an alternate and 2nd version of Marty who is still in that time period because he never used time travel to leave that time period (a paradox, but one that doesn't end the universe, but instead the altered past remains touched by the original Marty who I assume eventually either fades away or remains despite the paradox). But in each of these movie and episodes the original Marty never bumps into his other self and goes back in time and corrects things until the future is the same as the one where he goes back in time to begin with. The same goes for Doc, but I believe that episode 3 "Citizen Brown" disobeys this principle because there should have been two Docs in this episode as BttF2 explains that Doc was committed to an insane asylum, but in the movie Marty and Doc do not vanish when they hit Alternate 1985 like Doc does in episode 3. Marty also should have vanished and found himself as a Dungeon and Dragons nerd at a lake (or in Switzerland or run out of town by the Tannens, etc). But he didn't. Why? Because Doc vanishing made for a much more entertaining story, honestly. So, here's my big question: in the 1986 that the characters return to in the final episode the Marty in that time period did not need to go back in time to save the Doc because the Doc didn't need saving. Is there a 2nd Marty running around 1986 at the end of the final episode of the game? If not, my theories are thus: Marty vanished from the time stream at the same time his original self left it because the time travel is not changed or altered by the time stream, as seen in BttF1, because the ripples in the time streams didn't catch up to them until after he returned to 1985. Somehow the altered Marty was not influenced by the change in his parents because somehow the original Marty over rides the alternate Marty, as if the alternate 2nd Marty never existed despite everyone in the altered time line having memories have him. Which leads to another theory: When Doc and Marty enter an altered time line, except for those that are too heavily altered as witnessed in episode 3 (?), they replace and over ride their 2nd alternate copies. This is an unsatisfying answer, but possibly the answer as to why there are not two young 1986 Marties running around Hill Valley at the end of the final episode of the game series.
So, like I said, it's fun to think about, but it's not perfect. It's just fiction and entertainment, after all, and the main goal is that it's enjoyable. My advice to everyone, including myself, is don't fuss the details if it doesn't always make perfect sense. :-) Because it won't. Not for BttF, anyway, and especially not the game series. I think the movies were tighter than the game's story. But that's okay, because the game was the most enjoyable BttF game I've ever played.
I actually feel that Doc DID in fact visit 2015 Marty, and in fact, learned all about the circumstances behind Marty Jr. and Marlene's incarceration from him (though he may already have learned from the newspaper archives)...I think its far more likely he learns about the race with Needles, Marty's 'chicken problem' and the accident, from Marty himself, as that's the sort of thing he was unlikely to learn about from newspapers.
Who knows...maybe 2015 Marty was the one who begged Doc to set things right...and Doc, since he owed a debt to Marty for saving his life, agreed...
Hey, man, I really like this theory. It didn't make sense otherwise that Doc would interfere with the time stream. He's too careful about not causing paradoxes and his going backwards in time to fix Marty's kids lives would cause paradox enough since he'd never hear about them being incarcerated to go back in time to change the past in the first place. And I forgot that Marty asked him to look him up. So, honestly, at this point I wish there had been mention of this in one of the movies. Maybe Doc could have admitted that Marty's future self asked him to or in movie 3 Doc could have admitted that he knew about Needles but felt he couldn't risk a paradox by forewarning Marty? But I really like that thought, man.
But it is indeed fitting...after all, the very FIRST difference we observe between the 'old' 1985 and the 'new' one is the changed name of the Mall...
Oh, so, it's like a foreshadowing of the other changes Marty has made to the time line, his parents' and siblings' lives being the biggest difference? I never actually noticed the Twin Pines / Lone Pine thing. Wow! I learned something new about one of my favorite movies today.
So what you are saying is in other words, alternates have their own kind of free will. They can choose to travel anywhere, anytime completely on their own. They can make trips that the original haven't and survive without getting erased since being from a different lifespan. I think this aproach completely messes up the already confusing fiction of BTTF. There really is no way for Doc&YoungMarty to set things right anymore. Whereever&whenever they go and do now, those 3 Martys are still there and they have a little more time. Sitting without doing anything and just waiting to get erased is not something they would do for sure. They will travel also and continue to mess up even more and in the end it will all be just chaos it seems.
I agree. I thought the same thing. And the past canon and continuity has already shown us that even when these three Marties fade out of existence, their actions on the time stream will be permanent. Even if the time line they originated from is no longer in existence, they will still pop into the past time line because that time line STILL exists at the time period they entered into. They could return to the future to find it completely different, but since they were not in the future when it was erased, but in the past, they themselves are not erased and their actions in the past are permanent. For example, BttF1 Marty should have faded out or changed as his meddling in the past changed his parents and sibling and therefore changed himself and would have lead himself to act differently in life and in the past, but instead his meddling in the past was permanent and he didn't fade out or change in favor of his newer alternate 2nd self. It's all really confusing in the end. Can't make perfect sense, right?
I agree, BttF1 seemed to suggest that Marty going back in time at the end wasn't a creation of an alternate Marty since this was an alternate timeline, but instead that Marty's going back in time in the future was crucial to the change in the timeline. Although confusing and silly, one could say that the Marty we see at the ending is the SAME exact Marty who knew his dad as a wimp and etc concerning mom and siblings, but after he returns to the future suddenly the time stream is hit with the ripple affect and this Marty - the one and only Marty - sees for the first time how the time stream has been altered when Doc is alive and he returns home to his family. It's really confusing, but I think it's best not to try too hard to make sense of it. Basically, he should have been a different person who went back in time at the end of the movie (having had different childhood experiences due to parents who acted differently; for example, it sure changed his brother and sister), but he wasn't because that's not how the script writers wrote it. In other words, it's not perfect. It's a good movie. It's a good game. Don't expect things to make perfect sense, because it won't. That's my stand on the issue, anyway. :-)
But I agree. I REALLY didn't like the ending because it made no sense to have multiple Marty's. I saw it as just a joke and I don't expect it to be explained in the next game. As a matter of fact, I don't want it to be explained either. That's how much I disliked the joke. I believe it was a joke because it allowed them to cameo Michael J. Fox as Marty again (but a Marty at Michael's real age, I assume). And I don't see it as being explained in the next game because this final episode ends with Doc telling Marty to surprise or "thrill" him on where they are going to next. At the end of BttF1 Doc says they need to go to the future to fix it and then Jennifer gets into the car with them. The script writers, when making BttF2, said that this ending was a joke because they never expected the movie to have a sequel and that they were displeased as the BttF1 ending locked them into going to the future with Jennifer and they stated that had they left the ending of BttF1 more open they then could have taken Doc and Marty ANYWHERE and ANYTIME they chose. The ending of TTG's BttF: The Game pokes fun at this by ending openly so that the next game's story isn't locked into any story or any place or any time. It's open now to whatever they want.
Other thoughts of mine are as follows:
My thought is that the multiple Martys will be erased from time as soon as the time stream catches up to each of them (ala the ripple effect). When this happens the latest Marty will remain (the black jacket Marty?). But this isn't true according to the rest of the movie and game mechanics. Just like in BttF1 and BttF The Game Episode 1, Marty fades out once he's endangered his own future. However he only fades out if he causes himself to be dead or never born. If he still lives in the future in order to time travel to the past then he is the same. His memories and experiences and personality do not change, only whether he exists or not. Then again, consider when Edna destroys Hill Valley? Marty should have faded out because it made it largely improbable for his parents to meet and for him to be born, and certainly impossible for him to have met Doc Brown and gone back in time to begin with to 1955. However this is an example to where we could say that the ripple effect had not yet traveled to the future in order to cause Marty or Doc to fade out. You'd think this would be instantaneous though seeing as how the entirety of Hill Valley changed around them after Edna time-jumped in 1931. But, returning to the 3-Marty thought: Therefore all three of these Martys exist without fading out because nothing occurs previously that kills them or makes him never born. My guess is that all three of these Martys exist because one of them goes back in time to change his own time line because he doesn't like the life he has lead but accidentally creates an alternate future that goes back in time to change it back which then causes yet another time line, the rough and tough "black jacket Marty." Will any previous Marty fade out? Probably. The DeLorean in the final Episode finally faded out, but it took a long time. The DeLorean used by the final Alternate Doc was the same "copied" DeLorean, however Marty never needed to go back in time in order to save Doc to begin with - which REALLY screws up the time line as nothing in the past would have ever occurred to change the time line in the first place; hopefully reinforcing my belief that the original time travel is not affected by the change in the time stream except for causing himself to cease to exist - and thus the DeLorean was taken back to the future with Doc, who lived for 6 months until the time Marty originally went back in time and new Doc won the key to the city (how convenient it was that close to the correct time for Marty). In this alternate time stream only one question remains for me. Well, one important one. There may be more. The obvious question is this:
In BttF1 we see old 1985 Marty go back in time to 1955 as the current Marty rushes from 1955 to slightly altered 1985 and to the side of the should-be-dead altered Doc. The movie explains that Marty still went back in time, meaning that there is only one Marty in 1985 and that he still went back in time and changed the past. In BttF2 the movie and BttF The Game Episodes 2 and 3 there are alternate Marties mentioned - a Marty sent to Switzerland (Sweden?) by his step-dad Biff Tannen, a Marty run out of town by the Tannen crime family, and a Marty that is a Dungeon and Dragons nerd out of town at a lake. Each scenario explains that there is possibly an alternate and 2nd version of Marty who is still in that time period because he never used time travel to leave that time period (a paradox, but one that doesn't end the universe, but instead the altered past remains touched by the original Marty who I assume eventually either fades away or remains despite the paradox). But in each of these movie and episodes the original Marty never bumps into his other self and goes back in time and corrects things until the future is the same as the one where he goes back in time to begin with. The same goes for Doc, but I believe that episode 3 "Citizen Brown" disobeys this principle because there should have been two Docs in this episode as BttF2 explains that Doc was committed to an insane asylum, but in the movie Marty and Doc do not vanish when they hit Alternate 1985 like Doc does in episode 3. Marty also should have vanished and found himself as a Dungeon and Dragons nerd at a lake (or in Switzerland or run out of town by the Tannens, etc). But he didn't. Why? Because Doc vanishing made for a much more entertaining story, honestly. So, here's my big question: in the 1986 that the characters return to in the final episode the Marty in that time period did not need to go back in time to save the Doc because the Doc didn't need saving. Is there a 2nd Marty running around 1986 at the end of the final episode of the game? If not, my theories are thus: Marty vanished from the time stream at the same time his original self left it because the time travel is not changed or altered by the time stream, as seen in BttF1, because the ripples in the time streams didn't catch up to them until after he returned to 1985. Somehow the altered Marty was not influenced by the change in his parents because somehow the original Marty over rides the alternate Marty, as if the alternate 2nd Marty never existed despite everyone in the altered time line having memories have him. Which leads to another theory: When Doc and Marty enter an altered time line, except for those that are too heavily altered as witnessed in episode 3 (?), they replace and over ride their 2nd alternate copies. This is an unsatisfying answer, but possibly the answer as to why there are not two young 1986 Marties running around Hill Valley at the end of the final episode of the game series.
So, like I said, it's fun to think about, but it's not perfect. It's just fiction and entertainment, after all, and the main goal is that it's enjoyable. My advice to everyone, including myself, is don't fuss the details if it doesn't always make perfect sense. :-) Because it won't. Not for BttF, anyway, and especially not the game series. I think the movies were tighter than the game's story. But that's okay, because the game was the most enjoyable BttF game I've ever played.
I agree with some of the stuff you've said in this LOOONG post of yours, but not with others.
For instance, I don't for a minute believe that the Marty we see being chased by the Libyans in the end is NOT LP Marty, but is somehow TP Marty...it doesn't make sense at all. Obviously there was a Marty who grew up with the successful family, and because he didn't do any time travelling before October 26th 1985, he never had any memories of growing up with a nerdish dad and alcoholic mother. However, the TP and LP timelines are close enough such that the events at the Mall happen exactly the same way (remember the Space-time Preservation Effect I mentioned a while back), and LP Marty goes back the precise instant as TP Marty did. Now, because this is a duplicated time travel event, LP Marty is erased in favour of TP Marty, who made the original trip. TP Marty's journey to 1955 is written into the timeline permanently (the only time it seems to be undone is in the Citizen Brown timeline)...regardless of whether or not the Marty of the current timeline travels back to that date. If another Marty DOES travel back, he gets 'replaced' by TP Marty. Later, after he returns to his own time, TP Marty gradually begins to gain the memories and personality of his alternate self (and is thus 'incorporated' into the timeline by virtue of him being 'the only one' left).
Now I agree, I don't think the Bobs gave any thought to the issue of time traveller's memories and the whole TP/LP dichotomy with Marty...but then again, BTTF1 wasn't really a time travel film per se, but rather used time travel as a plot device to set up the story of a kid having to play matchmaker for his parents. So they decided to avoid the whole issue with alternate Marty's...to the casual viewer, the Marty we see at the end is the same as 'our' Marty whom we've been following.
With BTTF2 however, the Bobs gave the time travel itself a stronger focus and created an alternate reality with its own version of Marty...so they had to deal with the situation of doubles, but instead pretty much decided to skirt the issue by having the other Marty be in Switzerland and the other Doc being in an asylum...and with 'our' Marty and Doc somehow 'surviving' by virtue of being outside their own time while the timeline was being altered.
Of course, even with these two movies, we had some kind of consistency. If the time traveller changes the timeline, such that his alternate self also makes the same time jump he makes, the alternate self 'merges' with the original time traveller. If the time traveller changes the timeline such that his alternate self does not make the same time jump he makes, then there will be two of them when the original traveller returns. Simply enough.
But then with the Game, in order to get 'our' Doc out of the picture, they simply erase him just because he's in an alternate timeline, and 'replace' him with FCB Doc, which sort of goes against what was established in BTTF2. But Marty somehow survives, and isn't erased in favour of his FCB counterpart...so there isn't even consistency WITHIN the story.
With regards to the question of the three Marty's, you're right about each of the selves coming from a different version of the future. Even if the futures they've arrived from were erased, their appearance in the past doesn't get undone. As I mentioned in an earlier example, if Doc brought Marty from 1985-A back with him to 1955 to burn the Almanac, then there would be 2 Marty's in 1955, but one from a completely different timeline who doesn't remember being in 1955 before. Its pretty much the same situation as the end of the game.
But then with the Game, in order to get 'our' Doc out of the picture, they simply erase him just because he's in an alternate timeline, and 'replace' him with FCB Doc, which sort of goes against what was established in BTTF2. But Marty somehow survives, and isn't erased in favour of his FCB counterpart...so there isn't even consistency WITHIN the story.
Just a reminder, Doc is erased because he was supposed to be dead by that age.
Just a reminder, Doc is erased because he was supposed to be dead by that age.
Again, I really don't buy that. The timeline supposedly determines whether or not to erase 'our' Doc on the basis of its 'prediction' of the age at which his alternate self is 'supposed' to die...(which itself shouldn't be possible since the 'future is not written').
I've concluded that the only possible way to explain Doc fading away and Marty 'surviving' is that, by preventing Emmett Brown from even conceiving of time travel, the space-time continuum is screwed up to an extent far beyond what is was with 1985-A...causing a paradox so massive that it undid ALL past time trips (except for the 1931 one), and erased the time travelling Doc for good measure, since it was the change in his destiny which had caused this paradox.
Comments
it's also the first thing marty does in 1955 which changes the future (running over the tree).
I just figure at some point in the future one of the Marty's causes a change which changes to the timeline and creates alternate realities much like the Biffhoric one.
Here's another way to think of it;
suppose the biffhoric Marty and swizerland and the FCB math geek marty are happy with their lives and find out what 'our marty' has been through/up to and these 2 marty's have access to time machines. That could create the same scenario we see; 3 of the same person from different timelines fighting to save their own. The difference being the 3 marty's we see are older and have had more years of time travel at their disposal and thus more time to travel to. Also they'd travel to a point where their younger self existed wheras our marty and Biffhoric marty would be battling in 1955 and our marty and FCB marty would be battling in 1931.
Yeah, that's kinda what I had in mind.
Truth be told though, I don't think the two Bobs really had the whole 'alternate selves' thing figured out, especially when they made the first movie. In BTTF1, time travel itself was a plot device and nothing more...it didn't really matter WHAT time travel theory BTTF followed, because it didn't really affect one's comprehension of the plot on the basic level...
However, with BTTF2, time travel became very much the focus of the film...and BTTF's lack of a consistent time travel theory became a bane. And so we had all the convoluted paradoxes, with the ones arising from 1985-A being perhaps the biggest ones. The Bobs explained away the alternate 1985 using the parallel dimensions theory within the film itself, though it was pretty clear that BTTF DIDN'T operate on that model (both in the films itself and what the Bobs have mentioned in other interviews)...and so this led to the whole issue of whether or not Marty has an alternate self in the new timeline, and if he did, would this alternate self have time travelled or not? A question to which they never DID give a satisfactory answer...
You're right about how the films were planned; the first film was mainly a story about a teen who travels back in time and stops his parents from meeting. Time travel was the means to do so and they probably decided to improve the timeline to give it a happy ending. Part II really explored time travel the most.
It's never explained what happens to alternate selves during alternate timelines. I don't believe they co-exist because if they did, there should have been 2 marty's in the six month between the films and games. Its likely the ones native to that timeline disappear when the orginals return to the timeline. And if I am right, you could use the following rationales for what we saw; 2 of these 3 future marty's we see know they are about to be erased so this is why they are going back in time; to prevent so.
There wouldn't be 2 Marty's in the six months between the games...the Marty 'native' to the timeline at the end of BTTF3/start of the game would have gone back in time on October 26th 1985 and 'become' 'our' Marty anyway. So there is only 1 Marty.
Regarding the issue with alternates, Episode 3 does seem to strongly suggest there is an alternate Marty lurking about though we never see him. In any timeline where there should be an alternate Marty, that Marty is alluded to, but we never really see him, leaving the whole issue open-ended, though I personally feel its likely two Marty's can co-exist, though the ripple effect might eventually erase the one not belonging to the timeline.
Ultimately, it depends on the extent to which the timeline deviates from the TP/LP history...in all the variants of the LP-timeline, Marty goes back in time on October 26th 1985, and thus TP Marty is able to be 'incorporated' into the timeline as he is the only Marty left. In any timeline where Marty DOES NOT make the trip back, there should be another alternate Marty around and its possible that eventually, TP Marty would be erased.
Its of no real significance...except that Doc and Clara have obviously visited Marty and Jennifer in the future, which is not so surprising...I infact think its entirely possible Doc visited a future Marty both on his initial trip to 2015 and later when he returned to the future in the time train to get it hover converted.
I wonder if doc does in fact visit Marty in his initial 2015 trip. He obviously does look up Marty as per his request but do they interact? I'd imagine in the timeline of the children getting arrested Doc outright tells Marty whats going on so Doc can help Marty (unless this creates a paradox)
I actually feel that Doc DID in fact visit 2015 Marty, and in fact, learned all about the circumstances behind Marty Jr. and Marlene's incarceration from him (though he may already have learned from the newspaper archives)...I think its far more likely he learns about the race with Needles, Marty's 'chicken problem' and the accident, from Marty himself, as that's the sort of thing he was unlikely to learn about from newspapers.
Who knows...maybe 2015 Marty was the one who begged Doc to set things right...and Doc, since he owed a debt to Marty for saving his life, agreed...
I agree, BttF1 seemed to suggest that Marty going back in time at the end wasn't a creation of an alternate Marty since this was an alternate timeline, but instead that Marty's going back in time in the future was crucial to the change in the timeline. Although confusing and silly, one could say that the Marty we see at the ending is the SAME exact Marty who knew his dad as a wimp and etc concerning mom and siblings, but after he returns to the future suddenly the time stream is hit with the ripple affect and this Marty - the one and only Marty - sees for the first time how the time stream has been altered when Doc is alive and he returns home to his family. It's really confusing, but I think it's best not to try too hard to make sense of it. Basically, he should have been a different person who went back in time at the end of the movie (having had different childhood experiences due to parents who acted differently; for example, it sure changed his brother and sister), but he wasn't because that's not how the script writers wrote it. In other words, it's not perfect. It's a good movie. It's a good game. Don't expect things to make perfect sense, because it won't. That's my stand on the issue, anyway. :-)
But I agree. I REALLY didn't like the ending because it made no sense to have multiple Marty's. I saw it as just a joke and I don't expect it to be explained in the next game. As a matter of fact, I don't want it to be explained either. That's how much I disliked the joke. I believe it was a joke because it allowed them to cameo Michael J. Fox as Marty again (but a Marty at Michael's real age, I assume). And I don't see it as being explained in the next game because this final episode ends with Doc telling Marty to surprise or "thrill" him on where they are going to next. At the end of BttF1 Doc says they need to go to the future to fix it and then Jennifer gets into the car with them. The script writers, when making BttF2, said that this ending was a joke because they never expected the movie to have a sequel and that they were displeased as the BttF1 ending locked them into going to the future with Jennifer and they stated that had they left the ending of BttF1 more open they then could have taken Doc and Marty ANYWHERE and ANYTIME they chose. The ending of TTG's BttF: The Game pokes fun at this by ending openly so that the next game's story isn't locked into any story or any place or any time. It's open now to whatever they want.
Other thoughts of mine are as follows:
My thought is that the multiple Martys will be erased from time as soon as the time stream catches up to each of them (ala the ripple effect). When this happens the latest Marty will remain (the black jacket Marty?). But this isn't true according to the rest of the movie and game mechanics. Just like in BttF1 and BttF The Game Episode 1, Marty fades out once he's endangered his own future. However he only fades out if he causes himself to be dead or never born. If he still lives in the future in order to time travel to the past then he is the same. His memories and experiences and personality do not change, only whether he exists or not. Then again, consider when Edna destroys Hill Valley? Marty should have faded out because it made it largely improbable for his parents to meet and for him to be born, and certainly impossible for him to have met Doc Brown and gone back in time to begin with to 1955. However this is an example to where we could say that the ripple effect had not yet traveled to the future in order to cause Marty or Doc to fade out. You'd think this would be instantaneous though seeing as how the entirety of Hill Valley changed around them after Edna time-jumped in 1931. But, returning to the 3-Marty thought: Therefore all three of these Martys exist without fading out because nothing occurs previously that kills them or makes him never born. My guess is that all three of these Martys exist because one of them goes back in time to change his own time line because he doesn't like the life he has lead but accidentally creates an alternate future that goes back in time to change it back which then causes yet another time line, the rough and tough "black jacket Marty." Will any previous Marty fade out? Probably. The DeLorean in the final Episode finally faded out, but it took a long time. The DeLorean used by the final Alternate Doc was the same "copied" DeLorean, however Marty never needed to go back in time in order to save Doc to begin with - which REALLY screws up the time line as nothing in the past would have ever occurred to change the time line in the first place; hopefully reinforcing my belief that the original time travel is not affected by the change in the time stream except for causing himself to cease to exist - and thus the DeLorean was taken back to the future with Doc, who lived for 6 months until the time Marty originally went back in time and new Doc won the key to the city (how convenient it was that close to the correct time for Marty). In this alternate time stream only one question remains for me. Well, one important one. There may be more. The obvious question is this:
In BttF1 we see old 1985 Marty go back in time to 1955 as the current Marty rushes from 1955 to slightly altered 1985 and to the side of the should-be-dead altered Doc. The movie explains that Marty still went back in time, meaning that there is only one Marty in 1985 and that he still went back in time and changed the past. In BttF2 the movie and BttF The Game Episodes 2 and 3 there are alternate Marties mentioned - a Marty sent to Switzerland (Sweden?) by his step-dad Biff Tannen, a Marty run out of town by the Tannen crime family, and a Marty that is a Dungeon and Dragons nerd out of town at a lake. Each scenario explains that there is possibly an alternate and 2nd version of Marty who is still in that time period because he never used time travel to leave that time period (a paradox, but one that doesn't end the universe, but instead the altered past remains touched by the original Marty who I assume eventually either fades away or remains despite the paradox). But in each of these movie and episodes the original Marty never bumps into his other self and goes back in time and corrects things until the future is the same as the one where he goes back in time to begin with. The same goes for Doc, but I believe that episode 3 "Citizen Brown" disobeys this principle because there should have been two Docs in this episode as BttF2 explains that Doc was committed to an insane asylum, but in the movie Marty and Doc do not vanish when they hit Alternate 1985 like Doc does in episode 3. Marty also should have vanished and found himself as a Dungeon and Dragons nerd at a lake (or in Switzerland or run out of town by the Tannens, etc). But he didn't. Why? Because Doc vanishing made for a much more entertaining story, honestly. So, here's my big question: in the 1986 that the characters return to in the final episode the Marty in that time period did not need to go back in time to save the Doc because the Doc didn't need saving. Is there a 2nd Marty running around 1986 at the end of the final episode of the game? If not, my theories are thus: Marty vanished from the time stream at the same time his original self left it because the time travel is not changed or altered by the time stream, as seen in BttF1, because the ripples in the time streams didn't catch up to them until after he returned to 1985. Somehow the altered Marty was not influenced by the change in his parents because somehow the original Marty over rides the alternate Marty, as if the alternate 2nd Marty never existed despite everyone in the altered time line having memories have him. Which leads to another theory: When Doc and Marty enter an altered time line, except for those that are too heavily altered as witnessed in episode 3 (?), they replace and over ride their 2nd alternate copies. This is an unsatisfying answer, but possibly the answer as to why there are not two young 1986 Marties running around Hill Valley at the end of the final episode of the game series.
So, like I said, it's fun to think about, but it's not perfect. It's just fiction and entertainment, after all, and the main goal is that it's enjoyable. My advice to everyone, including myself, is don't fuss the details if it doesn't always make perfect sense. :-) Because it won't. Not for BttF, anyway, and especially not the game series. I think the movies were tighter than the game's story. But that's okay, because the game was the most enjoyable BttF game I've ever played.
Hey, man, I really like this theory. It didn't make sense otherwise that Doc would interfere with the time stream. He's too careful about not causing paradoxes and his going backwards in time to fix Marty's kids lives would cause paradox enough since he'd never hear about them being incarcerated to go back in time to change the past in the first place. And I forgot that Marty asked him to look him up. So, honestly, at this point I wish there had been mention of this in one of the movies. Maybe Doc could have admitted that Marty's future self asked him to or in movie 3 Doc could have admitted that he knew about Needles but felt he couldn't risk a paradox by forewarning Marty? But I really like that thought, man.
Oh, so, it's like a foreshadowing of the other changes Marty has made to the time line, his parents' and siblings' lives being the biggest difference? I never actually noticed the Twin Pines / Lone Pine thing. Wow! I learned something new about one of my favorite movies today.
I agree. I thought the same thing. And the past canon and continuity has already shown us that even when these three Marties fade out of existence, their actions on the time stream will be permanent. Even if the time line they originated from is no longer in existence, they will still pop into the past time line because that time line STILL exists at the time period they entered into. They could return to the future to find it completely different, but since they were not in the future when it was erased, but in the past, they themselves are not erased and their actions in the past are permanent. For example, BttF1 Marty should have faded out or changed as his meddling in the past changed his parents and sibling and therefore changed himself and would have lead himself to act differently in life and in the past, but instead his meddling in the past was permanent and he didn't fade out or change in favor of his newer alternate 2nd self. It's all really confusing in the end. Can't make perfect sense, right?
I agree with some of the stuff you've said in this LOOONG post of yours, but not with others.
For instance, I don't for a minute believe that the Marty we see being chased by the Libyans in the end is NOT LP Marty, but is somehow TP Marty...it doesn't make sense at all. Obviously there was a Marty who grew up with the successful family, and because he didn't do any time travelling before October 26th 1985, he never had any memories of growing up with a nerdish dad and alcoholic mother. However, the TP and LP timelines are close enough such that the events at the Mall happen exactly the same way (remember the Space-time Preservation Effect I mentioned a while back), and LP Marty goes back the precise instant as TP Marty did. Now, because this is a duplicated time travel event, LP Marty is erased in favour of TP Marty, who made the original trip. TP Marty's journey to 1955 is written into the timeline permanently (the only time it seems to be undone is in the Citizen Brown timeline)...regardless of whether or not the Marty of the current timeline travels back to that date. If another Marty DOES travel back, he gets 'replaced' by TP Marty. Later, after he returns to his own time, TP Marty gradually begins to gain the memories and personality of his alternate self (and is thus 'incorporated' into the timeline by virtue of him being 'the only one' left).
Now I agree, I don't think the Bobs gave any thought to the issue of time traveller's memories and the whole TP/LP dichotomy with Marty...but then again, BTTF1 wasn't really a time travel film per se, but rather used time travel as a plot device to set up the story of a kid having to play matchmaker for his parents. So they decided to avoid the whole issue with alternate Marty's...to the casual viewer, the Marty we see at the end is the same as 'our' Marty whom we've been following.
With BTTF2 however, the Bobs gave the time travel itself a stronger focus and created an alternate reality with its own version of Marty...so they had to deal with the situation of doubles, but instead pretty much decided to skirt the issue by having the other Marty be in Switzerland and the other Doc being in an asylum...and with 'our' Marty and Doc somehow 'surviving' by virtue of being outside their own time while the timeline was being altered.
Of course, even with these two movies, we had some kind of consistency. If the time traveller changes the timeline, such that his alternate self also makes the same time jump he makes, the alternate self 'merges' with the original time traveller. If the time traveller changes the timeline such that his alternate self does not make the same time jump he makes, then there will be two of them when the original traveller returns. Simply enough.
But then with the Game, in order to get 'our' Doc out of the picture, they simply erase him just because he's in an alternate timeline, and 'replace' him with FCB Doc, which sort of goes against what was established in BTTF2. But Marty somehow survives, and isn't erased in favour of his FCB counterpart...so there isn't even consistency WITHIN the story.
With regards to the question of the three Marty's, you're right about each of the selves coming from a different version of the future. Even if the futures they've arrived from were erased, their appearance in the past doesn't get undone. As I mentioned in an earlier example, if Doc brought Marty from 1985-A back with him to 1955 to burn the Almanac, then there would be 2 Marty's in 1955, but one from a completely different timeline who doesn't remember being in 1955 before. Its pretty much the same situation as the end of the game.
Again, I really don't buy that. The timeline supposedly determines whether or not to erase 'our' Doc on the basis of its 'prediction' of the age at which his alternate self is 'supposed' to die...(which itself shouldn't be possible since the 'future is not written').
I've concluded that the only possible way to explain Doc fading away and Marty 'surviving' is that, by preventing Emmett Brown from even conceiving of time travel, the space-time continuum is screwed up to an extent far beyond what is was with 1985-A...causing a paradox so massive that it undid ALL past time trips (except for the 1931 one), and erased the time travelling Doc for good measure, since it was the change in his destiny which had caused this paradox.