While it seems petty, I would change Carly's/Doug's death. If TellTale, and the new writer for this episode, felt Carly/Doug *needed* to die for some important narrative tragedy, then there's little that can be done on our parts at this point. It's not like she was shot and went over the side of a bridge or something into the water, thereby giving the *hope* that she might have survived. She was shot in the face. At point-blank. What I would change would be the why.
If you're going to kill off a central love interest or popular character, give it meaning, not just as a narrative scapegoat to have an excuse to eject another character who *has* to leave the group because she plays an important role in the comics. (Nice call there TellTale. Couldn't have just used Glen...)
Even in Kirkman's comics popular characters dying, while senseless and painful sometimes, serve the greater story. They feel important. Lessons were taken. Carly/Doug's death was completely empty and flat for anyone who could see what was really done from a technical aspect.
I mean, it was so clear it pulled me out of the game completely and left me looking at the whole think differently. Now, when a character is dead, I can't see the tragedy, but instead I find myself asking the question: Was this done because they just need room for a new character? And, given the quality of the series thus far, this is really quite a sad change for me and very well will impact whether or not I purchase Episode 4.
I would argue -- both in the case of the original comics, and in the case of the game -- that the deaths being pointless *is* the point.
But their pointless in the sense of tragedy, tragedy which fuels the greater narrative. They're not *bleeping* Scapegoats. Kirkman is a better writer then that. Something greater is always taken from those deaths.
Carly/Doug's demise is a blink moment and then they've essentially moved on. They even leave her/his body on the side of the road like she/he's not important, not even bothering to take it for burial or burning. She/He was shot in the face, so she's/he's not coming back. It literally was a plot hole through which they shoved Lily out.
Example of a Pointless/Senseless death that adds painful gravitas to the story? Katjaa's suicide.
I would of done anything to keep Carly around honestly since she was the only level headed one in the group who I really trusted besides clem. Alas, it would take telltale DOUBLE the amount of time to make and develop a whole other story if doug/carly stuck around. So i guess it the realm of it being "just a video game" it was for the benefit of the game I would of liked carly to die in a different matter where we could have an emotional burial or something but whatevvvvs
Yup. Wasted potential. Loved Carley to bits. My Lee would've known that, and what makes sad is that his reaction to her death was so small!!
I hope in the next episode there's few more dialogue options about Carley's sudden death than: Katjaa: "I'm sorry about Carley. I know you were fond of her..." Lee: "Yeah, I was fond of her. She was small. I like...small...*eyes Clemie-Clem like Omid*"
Telltale--make Lee cry over Carley in Episode 4 and I can just about get over my sleepless nights witnessing the things in this game!
honestly i wouldnt change a thing, theyve done a fantastic job at making the forums explode in outrage over the death of carley, which shows how invested and shocking it was that TT went ahead and killed her off, which is complete authentic walking dead style. Get you invested in characaters then kill them off at a whim in unexpected ways. im glad they didnt go the typical route when coming up with a new twist in the story telling and throw a half assed romantic interest in, they decided to develop even further in your interest and protection of clementine... to have a love affair going as well would be silly and take away from the core development focus between those two characters. Ultimately at the end of the day the story is about Lee, and how hes going to see clementine through the zombie apocalypse, and gain redemption for his sins in the past.
honestly i wouldnt change a thing, theyve done a fantastic job at making the forums explode in outrage over the death of carley, which shows how invested and shocking it was that TT went ahead and killed her off, which is complete authentic walking dead style. Get you invested in characaters then kill them off at a whim in unexpected ways. im glad they didnt go the typical route when coming up with a new twist in the story telling and throw a half assed romantic interest in, they decided to develop even further in your interest and protection of clementine... to have a love affair going as well would be silly and take away from the core development focus between those two characters. Ultimately at the end of the day the story is about Lee, and how hes going to see clementine through the zombie apocalypse, and gain redemption for his sins in the past.
Wrong. The Outrage comes because *how* Carly/Doug died was pointless and poorly executed. And bad press/attention is not always "good press." Especially when you're an Arcade/Download Game.
Mass Effect 3 was a giant Triple-A title that people had deep investments in, and, when BioWare slapped the fans across the face with a poorly written/poorly executed twist, it effected the sales of the game with mass returns, and proverbial industry shit storm.
While Carly/Doug's demise won't garner quite that level of rage, it is likely to effect sales of the next episode and the series overall. I've seen such posts both here and on other gaming sites. Something I'm sure TellTale is aware of.
So, you're proud of them, and that's fine. But don't believe for a moment they thought this through because they obviously didn't.
Wrong. The Outrage comes because *how* Carly/Doug died was pointless and poorly executed. And bad press/attention is not always "good press." Especially when you're an Arcade/Download Game.
Mass Effect 3 was a giant Triple-A title that people had deep investments in, and, when BioWare slapped the fans across the face with a poorly written/poorly executed twist, it effected the sales of the game with mass returns, and proverbial industry shit storm.
While Carly/Doug's demise won't garner quite that level of rage, it is likely to effect sales of the next episode and the series overall. I've seen such posts both here and on other gaming sites. Something I'm sure TellTale is aware of.
So, you're proud of them, and that's fine. But don't believe for a moment they thought this through because they obviously didn't.
ok hold the phone here, ur seriously not comparing the deaths of doug/carly to the endings of me3 are you? your greatly overstating the worth of carley and doug if you are, they were tertiary characters at best, not some game changing momentous characters that you completely lose all worth in the game over losing them. Also not every death has huge meaning in the world, lots of people die stupid pointless deaths everyday ....why because theyre in your party or in a unique situation does their deaths have to be this huge momentous occasion? I think its incredibly interesting that theyd kill them so nonchalantly ... it shows the bleakness of twd universe. You may not like that it happened, but that isnt a reflection of poor story telling, poor story telling would make you not give a shit whatsoever. i think it was done to get a huge reaction out of the fanbase and shake the dynamic up- and it succeeded greatly at doing so, your heatedness of your response proves that greatly. Besides its not a huge stretch for lilly to lose her shit all of a sudden, shes been ready to snap since the first episode...
Also its sad commentary that ud want to have complete fan (well fans with YOUR perspective seeing as me and many others have no problem with ep 3 whatsoever) approval of all aspects of the story so you wouldnt bail on buying future episodes. If tt had that mentality the fiction would be boring as hell, predictable, and would prolly consist of carley, clementine, and lee sailing to the florida keys with her parents. You need shock value, you need to be able to keep your audience guessing in order to make solid story telling.
I got it, Carly returns as a friendly ghost. As desperate as that is, that is honestly the only way shes coming back. If she came back alive by any excuse I would lose respect for tt. I would like her to return but at the same time the story has been BRILLIANTLY told so far that (like I said before) has kept plot twists and reality at a fair line.
What I mean by that is I hope for the sake of the game, Lilly or Carly dont return, Chuck is not the st johns father, or that the guy on the walkie talkie is anyone we know...why? Because those things would not be plausible in logic or in life. Now I know a lot will say its a video game and its supposed to be entertaining and stretch reality but so far tt has tooken an angle where they keep the story moving and very interesting without making huge plot turns.
well actually I was quite shocked by Lilly shooting Carley. I think the leaving her lying at the side of the road because in need of quick depature situation was well executed.
The thing I didnt really like that much in regarding the storytelling is that Katja shoot herself right in front of her dying son. Well ok I understand her demise but this felt a little bit wrong.
And I think we might get some interesting conversation about Lilly killing Carley in the next episode and in Lee gieving some more grief to that.
I let Lilly go with the van and would love to see her again in one of the next episodes. Lee and Lilly should talk some more than they have after Lilly shooting Carley. I am as the character Lee not in rage and dont wanna kill Lilly but I could imagine a situation where Lilly and Lee have made their peace and then Lilly gets bitten by a zombie and she wants Lee to give her the shoot in the head and kill her. So that finally the story between Lilly, Lee (and Carley) ends.
well actually I was quite shocked by Lilly shooting Carley. I think the leaving her lying at the side of the road because in need of quick depature situation was well executed.
The thing I didnt really like that much in regarding the storytelling is that Katja shoot herself right in front of her dying son. Well ok I understand her demise but this felt a little bit wrong.
And I think we might get some interesting conversation about Lilly killing Carley in the next episode and in Lee gieving some more grief to that.
I let Lilly go with the van and would love to see her again in one of the next episodes. Lee and Lilly should talk some more than they have after Lilly shooting Carley. I am as the character Lee not in rage and dont wanna kill Lilly but I could imagine a situation where Lilly and Lee have made their peace and then Lilly gets bitten by a zombie and she wants Lee to give her the shoot in the head and kill her. So that finally the story between Lilly, Lee (and Carley) ends.
Lilly is gone for good. Carly is gone for good. I agree with everything you said besides lilly coming back. She is not.
But their pointless in the sense of tragedy, tragedy which fuels the greater narrative. They're not *bleeping* Scapegoats. Kirkman is a better writer then that. Something greater is always taken from those deaths.
Carly/Doug's demise is a blink moment and then they've essentially moved on. They even leave her/his body on the side of the road like she/he's not important, not even bothering to take it for burial or burning. She/He was shot in the face, so she's/he's not coming back. It literally was a plot hole through which they shoved Lily out.
Example of a Pointless/Senseless death that adds painful gravitas to the story? Katjaa's suicide.
Carley's/Doug's murder showed us just how far Lilly had deteriorated from the events in the past episode. Not to mention what it does to Lee and how he handles a decision shortly after. That was what I took away from his/her death. Not every death needs to have significance to the overall story.
These characters also live in a different world. They essentially had lost all stability (what little there was) a short time before and had just witnessed a friend murdered by one of their own. Pleasantries like burials are a luxury in their world. If you haven't learned that by now... I just don't know.
Wrong. The Outrage comes because *how* Carly/Doug died was pointless and poorly executed. And bad press/attention is not always "good press." Especially when you're an Arcade/Download Game.
It may have been pointless to you, but it was executed extremely well. Seriously, what are you expecting? There are several of us that have warned that these things would happen if TTG followed through with sticking to the spirit of "The Walking Dead" comics.
So, you're proud of them, and that's fine. But don't believe for a moment they thought this through because they obviously didn't.
Because you don't like the events that transpired in this episode, it was poorly thought out. Wat. This episode was absolutely awesome, I'm sorry you don't feel the same way.
I think since theres so many people that think carley's death was executed in a bad way they should make her come back in a dream or hallucination for some closure
I liked Carley but I don't get why Lee should be grief stricken over her death.They were basically at the 'first date' stage at most?! Lee's grief doesn't even compare to Kenny's loss or even Lilly's loss of a parent. Carley fancied Doug first only a few months ago and she fancies Lee even if you told her you didn't trust her, so surely she isn't' that picky when choosing men. I few lines in episode 4 discussing the loss of Doug/Carley's should suffice.
Carley's death felt flat compaired to Doug who gave his life to save ben it was dramatic, Carley just Insulted a phyco a little too much and was gunned down, maybe if the pacing was faster and the insults more hard hitting it would work?
What do I change?
Lilly could shoot Ben, soon after a zombie appears and kills Lilly.
Or, the bandits hit one shot at Ben and Lilly ...
I would be very happy if that happened ...
(so she did not shoot Carley / Doug could not save Ben!)
But Episode 3 was also very good...
Carley's/Doug's murder showed us just how far Lilly had deteriorated from the events in the past episode. Not to mention what it does to Lee and how he handles a decision shortly after. That was what I took away from his/her death. Not every death needs to have significance to the overall story.
These characters also live in a different world. They essentially had lost all stability (what little there was) a short time before and had just witnessed a friend murdered by one of their own. Pleasantries like burials are a luxury in their world. If you haven't learned that by now... I just don't know.
It may have been pointless to you, but it was executed extremely well. Seriously, what are you expecting? There are several of us that have warned that these things would happen if TTG followed through with sticking to the spirit of "The Walking Dead" comics.
Because you don't like the events that transpired in this episode, it was poorly thought out. Wat. This episode was absolutely awesome, I'm sorry you don't feel the same way.
Not every death needs to have significance to the overall story.
When they're one of the only differences between episodes one and three and one of the most relatable/level-headed characters in the game, their death better contribute significance to the overall story, especially if they're fan favorites. It was handled sloppily. Even in the comics, characters are fleshed out before they die; Kirkman doesn't usually just introduce someone to kill them a short while later, and since each episode is only about 2 hours, there was plenty of room for narrative expansion regarding the roles of Carly/Doug. Duck and Katja dying were enough for this episode and that even felt forced given how the walkers somehow appeared inside of the motel complex, even though the bandits had literally just entered. Episode 3 reeked of emotional manipulation and it comes across as bad writing if you need to force situations (like Duck suddenly becoming useful right before he dies) to make your audience sad about a character passing.
I have made peace with Carley/Doug dying. If not this episode, I kind of expected them to die in Episode 4. It was a bit shocking and maybe a tad premature, but it could have been a lot worse!
No, the thing I would have changed is the ending. To suddenly throw in two characters I don't care for and give no time to develop was just kind of flimsy. And the "climax" of a horde of walkers really did nothing for me. It was just the "ok, and here we will put lots of zombies in" moment.
If I had a say in this, I think introducing those two and the stuff with Duck and Katjaa should have switched places. Another part of why I felt the ending was weak was because it felt like the episode's plot climaxed too early. After what happens to Duck, you don't really feel like anything can top that. And...it doesn't. If these points were switched, it would have given Omid and Christa time to develop and be worth caring about while giving a strong climax to the episode.
I think that's the biggest thing for me I would change.
No, the thing I would have changed is the ending. To suddenly throw in two characters I don't care for and give no time to develop was just kind of flimsy. And the "climax" of a horde of walkers really did nothing for me. It was just the "ok, and here we will put lots of zombies in" moment.
If you know how herds work in the comics, you pretty much know how many are following the train. The train is just an excuse to build a herd. I think that's only the forehead of the zombie though, we'll get a real herd in the next episode.
Me, I'd have tried to find some way to make the ending have a little more punch. I agree that the episode 1 and 2 cliffhangers were great and the third wasn't as strong. That might require taking an element from 4 and placing it earlier, so it's probably impossible.
Comments
If you're going to kill off a central love interest or popular character, give it meaning, not just as a narrative scapegoat to have an excuse to eject another character who *has* to leave the group because she plays an important role in the comics. (Nice call there TellTale. Couldn't have just used Glen...)
Even in Kirkman's comics popular characters dying, while senseless and painful sometimes, serve the greater story. They feel important. Lessons were taken. Carly/Doug's death was completely empty and flat for anyone who could see what was really done from a technical aspect.
I mean, it was so clear it pulled me out of the game completely and left me looking at the whole think differently. Now, when a character is dead, I can't see the tragedy, but instead I find myself asking the question: Was this done because they just need room for a new character? And, given the quality of the series thus far, this is really quite a sad change for me and very well will impact whether or not I purchase Episode 4.
Right, because that wouldn't have cheapened the character at all...:rolleyes:
I would argue -- both in the case of the original comics, and in the case of the game -- that the deaths being pointless *is* the point.
My Lee has needs DAMN IT! lol he deserves it...they both do :cool:
But their pointless in the sense of tragedy, tragedy which fuels the greater narrative. They're not *bleeping* Scapegoats. Kirkman is a better writer then that. Something greater is always taken from those deaths.
Carly/Doug's demise is a blink moment and then they've essentially moved on. They even leave her/his body on the side of the road like she/he's not important, not even bothering to take it for burial or burning. She/He was shot in the face, so she's/he's not coming back. It literally was a plot hole through which they shoved Lily out.
Example of a Pointless/Senseless death that adds painful gravitas to the story? Katjaa's suicide.
Yup. Wasted potential. Loved Carley to bits. My Lee would've known that, and what makes sad is that his reaction to her death was so small!!
I hope in the next episode there's few more dialogue options about Carley's sudden death than:
Katjaa: "I'm sorry about Carley. I know you were fond of her..."
Lee: "Yeah, I was fond of her. She was small. I like...small...*eyes Clemie-Clem like Omid*"
Telltale--make Lee cry over Carley in Episode 4 and I can just about get over my sleepless nights witnessing the things in this game!
Amen brotha
Wrong. The Outrage comes because *how* Carly/Doug died was pointless and poorly executed. And bad press/attention is not always "good press." Especially when you're an Arcade/Download Game.
Mass Effect 3 was a giant Triple-A title that people had deep investments in, and, when BioWare slapped the fans across the face with a poorly written/poorly executed twist, it effected the sales of the game with mass returns, and proverbial industry shit storm.
While Carly/Doug's demise won't garner quite that level of rage, it is likely to effect sales of the next episode and the series overall. I've seen such posts both here and on other gaming sites. Something I'm sure TellTale is aware of.
So, you're proud of them, and that's fine. But don't believe for a moment they thought this through because they obviously didn't.
ok hold the phone here, ur seriously not comparing the deaths of doug/carly to the endings of me3 are you? your greatly overstating the worth of carley and doug if you are, they were tertiary characters at best, not some game changing momentous characters that you completely lose all worth in the game over losing them. Also not every death has huge meaning in the world, lots of people die stupid pointless deaths everyday ....why because theyre in your party or in a unique situation does their deaths have to be this huge momentous occasion? I think its incredibly interesting that theyd kill them so nonchalantly ... it shows the bleakness of twd universe. You may not like that it happened, but that isnt a reflection of poor story telling, poor story telling would make you not give a shit whatsoever. i think it was done to get a huge reaction out of the fanbase and shake the dynamic up- and it succeeded greatly at doing so, your heatedness of your response proves that greatly. Besides its not a huge stretch for lilly to lose her shit all of a sudden, shes been ready to snap since the first episode...
Also its sad commentary that ud want to have complete fan (well fans with YOUR perspective seeing as me and many others have no problem with ep 3 whatsoever) approval of all aspects of the story so you wouldnt bail on buying future episodes. If tt had that mentality the fiction would be boring as hell, predictable, and would prolly consist of carley, clementine, and lee sailing to the florida keys with her parents. You need shock value, you need to be able to keep your audience guessing in order to make solid story telling.
What I mean by that is I hope for the sake of the game, Lilly or Carly dont return, Chuck is not the st johns father, or that the guy on the walkie talkie is anyone we know...why? Because those things would not be plausible in logic or in life. Now I know a lot will say its a video game and its supposed to be entertaining and stretch reality but so far tt has tooken an angle where they keep the story moving and very interesting without making huge plot turns.
The thing I didnt really like that much in regarding the storytelling is that Katja shoot herself right in front of her dying son. Well ok I understand her demise but this felt a little bit wrong.
And I think we might get some interesting conversation about Lilly killing Carley in the next episode and in Lee gieving some more grief to that.
I let Lilly go with the van and would love to see her again in one of the next episodes. Lee and Lilly should talk some more than they have after Lilly shooting Carley. I am as the character Lee not in rage and dont wanna kill Lilly but I could imagine a situation where Lilly and Lee have made their peace and then Lilly gets bitten by a zombie and she wants Lee to give her the shoot in the head and kill her. So that finally the story between Lilly, Lee (and Carley) ends.
That's exactly what happened to me.
It's the good ending idea. I like it.
Lilly is gone for good. Carly is gone for good. I agree with everything you said besides lilly coming back. She is not.
Carley's/Doug's murder showed us just how far Lilly had deteriorated from the events in the past episode. Not to mention what it does to Lee and how he handles a decision shortly after. That was what I took away from his/her death. Not every death needs to have significance to the overall story.
These characters also live in a different world. They essentially had lost all stability (what little there was) a short time before and had just witnessed a friend murdered by one of their own. Pleasantries like burials are a luxury in their world. If you haven't learned that by now... I just don't know.
It may have been pointless to you, but it was executed extremely well. Seriously, what are you expecting? There are several of us that have warned that these things would happen if TTG followed through with sticking to the spirit of "The Walking Dead" comics.
Because you don't like the events that transpired in this episode, it was poorly thought out. Wat. This episode was absolutely awesome, I'm sorry you don't feel the same way.
Makes me proud.
Lilly could shoot Ben, soon after a zombie appears and kills Lilly.
Or, the bandits hit one shot at Ben and Lilly ...
I would be very happy if that happened ...
(so she did not shoot Carley / Doug could not save Ben!)
But Episode 3 was also very good...
Not bad as far as last words go, really she should have followed up with a right hook.
When they're one of the only differences between episodes one and three and one of the most relatable/level-headed characters in the game, their death better contribute significance to the overall story, especially if they're fan favorites. It was handled sloppily. Even in the comics, characters are fleshed out before they die; Kirkman doesn't usually just introduce someone to kill them a short while later, and since each episode is only about 2 hours, there was plenty of room for narrative expansion regarding the roles of Carly/Doug. Duck and Katja dying were enough for this episode and that even felt forced given how the walkers somehow appeared inside of the motel complex, even though the bandits had literally just entered. Episode 3 reeked of emotional manipulation and it comes across as bad writing if you need to force situations (like Duck suddenly becoming useful right before he dies) to make your audience sad about a character passing.
No, the thing I would have changed is the ending. To suddenly throw in two characters I don't care for and give no time to develop was just kind of flimsy. And the "climax" of a horde of walkers really did nothing for me. It was just the "ok, and here we will put lots of zombies in" moment.
If I had a say in this, I think introducing those two and the stuff with Duck and Katjaa should have switched places. Another part of why I felt the ending was weak was because it felt like the episode's plot climaxed too early. After what happens to Duck, you don't really feel like anything can top that. And...it doesn't. If these points were switched, it would have given Omid and Christa time to develop and be worth caring about while giving a strong climax to the episode.
I think that's the biggest thing for me I would change.
If you know how herds work in the comics, you pretty much know how many are following the train. The train is just an excuse to build a herd. I think that's only the forehead of the zombie though, we'll get a real herd in the next episode.
-.-
I'd change nothing, It's brilliant.