Season 2's thematically very different to Season 1. It feels constantly hopeless and dreary at all times... It's all about loneliness.
So plot timing is your main issue, right? That makes no sense. Events that break equilibrium are necessary for a story to be engaging, otherwise it'd just end up like EastEnders. I wouldn't want to see Lee and Clem merrily live their lives on the completely innocent St. Johns farm for three episodes.
I know that. We're talking about games. And I didn't like this game not beacuse I wasn't capable of immersing myself. Lack of logic isn't th… moree main reason I don't consider TWDG a masterpiece.
You must have a heart of stone.
Not really.
Is Season 2 very similar to Season 1?
Yeah... Well i think a lot of it has to do with the maturity of some of the people here. Obvious troll thread, and people took the bait. They should of said "I have to agree to disagree." about your opinion and left it at that. I loved Mass Effect 1 & 2 , however 3's ending gave me cancer. I'm still struggling everyday.... Red, Green, Blue, what do i do!
God, I hate the response this got. Instantly bombard with Tumblr Replies where only their opinions are right and anything else is troll. I a… moregree, the game is alright but no where near a masterpiece. Choice is non existent, Story is okay. Season 2 is defiantly not up to par but it's still an alright game. One game that comes close to a masterpiece would be Mass Effect.
Meh, Mass Effect was a great power fantasy and all and an excellent game with brilliant characters, (Keelah se'lai) however it didn't generate anything near to the emotional response TWD managed, so as far as I'm concerned it falls behind from a storytelling standpoint.
God, I hate the response this got. Instantly bombard with Tumblr Replies where only their opinions are right and anything else is troll. I a… moregree, the game is alright but no where near a masterpiece. Choice is non existent, Story is okay. Season 2 is defiantly not up to par but it's still an alright game. One game that comes close to a masterpiece would be Mass Effect.
...He was in a car crash. While the car was going at highway speeds. Everything in the car could have caused that.
Do you think the child… more personally owned the house himself? The kid had parents. Parents who had whiskey.
Yeah, based on these examples, I think you're kinda nit-picking here.
Meh, Mass Effect was a great power fantasy and all and an excellent game with brilliant characters, (Keelah se'lai) however it didn't genera… morete anything near to the emotional response TWD managed, so as far as I'm concerned it falls behind from a storytelling standpoint.
Season 2's thematically very different to Season 1. It feels constantly hopeless and dreary at all times... It's all about loneliness.
So… more plot timing is your main issue, right? That makes no sense. Events that break equilibrium are necessary for a story to be engaging, otherwise it'd just end up like EastEnders. I wouldn't want to see Lee and Clem merrily live their lives on the completely innocent St. Johns farm for three episodes.
First, it's just a game and it shouldn't be seen as exact copy of reality. But hear me out - this game is good. There's plenty of things I can forgive if the story simply keeps making sense. The Walking Dead is good, it's just not the masterpiece. Gaming market lacks this kind of games, that's why people try to convince themselves this game has to be good no matter what and call "the illusion of choice" a perfect way to stay under a false tension.
It has no less false tension than any other fictional tale, ever. The illusion of choice has no bearing on the plot (for the most part), but it makes for some awesome interactivity with characters and how they view you. I definitely disagree it's not a masterpiece, but to each their own.
The things I pointed out before were just examples.
Bad examples.
Story wouldn't be that good if the plot has stopped with explainations such as "Holy shit, zombies! We gotta run!"
What? My translation: "Story would have been better if there weren't so many "Holy shit, zombies! We gotta run!" moments..... In the zombie apocalypse? Please, do tell.
It's obvious that some of the events could've been changed or at least logically explained.
Like what? Why would they change them? Every story has things that could be changed, but then it's a different story. Batman stories could have batman die each time and the villain blows up Gotham City, but no one wants to see that.
Because Lee's death wouldn't be as emocional without Clementine shooting/leaving him (again, just an example).
Are you arguing against story here? I don't understand the point you're making.
This game is overrated. Not as much as I thought at first, but still. You confirmed it to me with the ridiculously behaviour I've encountered.
So you come for explanation, get an overwhelming amount of it (on a forum of the game, where the loves reside) and your entire argument is nullified a multitude of times, and now explanation is considered "ridiculous behavior,".... why are you here again?
There are so many brainwashed people who can't deal with it, rejecting the opinions of those who disagree
Most of the people I see are completely ok with your opinion. It's you who is rejecting logic and the opinions of others.
Because it's easier to say something like this than force the reality.
Translation?: It's easier for people to disagree with you than to be forced reality (or something like that, to be honest you completely lost me there) It's actually easier for people to give a coherent, realistic argument as to why you're wrong.
Yes, there are also people who think differently.
Yes, there are.
I said my piece. I never shouldn't have came here, I see it now. Thank you for your attention.
I would never say that.... but if you're going to.........
Something doesn't necessarily have to be razor sharp to leave an open wound. Haven't you ever bled from stubbing your toe or banging against the corner of a wall?
If I'm that kid, I'm grabbing whatever the hell I can. He's probably never tried whiskey before so maybe he brought it up there thinking that if it comes to it, he could drink it. Then maybe tried it and realized that it's basically like drinking smoke. It's also possible that the whiskey simply happened to have been stored in the attic.
From what I saw, it was a cut, but the windows were still intact meaning it couldn't be a piece of glass. Anyway, it's just an example.
… more Do you think the child personally owned the house himself? The kid had parents. Parents who had whiskey.
Yeah, and he took the wiskhey hoping it will help him survive.
There were a few things that have lead to problems in this thread. The first was assuming that people would notice or care about the same details you cared about. That's not to say that the details that you care about do not matter; it's just that people pay attention to and care about the details that catch their attention. People also have varying levels of acceptance to the details that just don't make sense. For example, when I'm playing, I always notice that the characters pull huge items out of their pockets. Does that make sense? Not really. Does it kill the experience for me? I wouldn't say so.
You understand that certain things happen just to move the plot along and create character development. That's necessary in every story. Writers have many approaches to this. I understand if you didn't particularly care how Katjaa's character was handled in the grand scheme of things, but I do think that you had a different viewpoint while you were playing through the game. Was she "Kenny's wife" as you were interacting with her throughout the game, or did she only become "Kenny's wife" after she died. I understand that critical thought about the plot points are necessary, but the primary goal of this game is to entertain, and I was at least entertained by the majority of characters and situations in this game.
I guess the short version of what I'm trying to say is this: people have different expectations of games which leads to different ways of thinking about the games which leads to different experiences of the games. In other words, your mileage may vary. You gave the game a shot, and you thought it was decent. Nothing wrong with that. It's just that most people here feel differently and don't really understand your complaints because their priorities while playing were completely different.
There were a few things that have lead to problems in this thread. The first was assuming that people would notice or care about the same de… moretails you cared about. That's not to say that the details that you care about do not matter; it's just that people pay attention to and care about the details that catch their attention. People also have varying levels of acceptance to the details that just don't make sense. For example, when I'm playing, I always notice that the characters pull huge items out of their pockets. Does that make sense? Not really. Does it kill the experience for me? I wouldn't say so.
You understand that certain things happen just to move the plot along and create character development. That's necessary in every story. Writers have many approaches to this. I understand if you didn't particularly care how Katjaa's character was handled in the grand scheme of things, but I do think that you had a different viewpoint while y… [view original content]
Why were you even paying attention to realism?
Because if it doesn't exist, Lee would blow everything up with an atom bomb, survived… more thanks to his invisible urban armour, and set up a plantation of hyacinth. Logic is important and I can't enjoy the game without it.
I don't think this minor detail bogs down the entire bloody game's storyline.
There are hundreds of similar cases, really. I could've pointed all of them out, but I didn't. I'm not that meticulous.
Meh, Mass Effect was a great power fantasy and all and an excellent game with brilliant characters, (Keelah se'lai) however it didn't genera… morete anything near to the emotional response TWD managed, so as far as I'm concerned it falls behind from a storytelling standpoint.
Lee Everett was in ME 2, he plays that one black guy's father who went crazy and had sex with the crew or whatever. Any game he touches it goes to gold.
First, it's just a game and it shouldn't be seen as exact copy of reality. But hear me out - this game is good. There's plenty of things I c… morean forgive if the story simply keeps making sense. The Walking Dead is good, it's just not the masterpiece. Gaming market lacks this kind of games, that's why people try to convince themselves this game has to be good no matter what and call "the illusion of choice" a perfect way to stay under a false tension.
It has no less false tension than any other fictional tale, ever. The illusion of choice has no bearing on the plot (for the most part), but it makes for some awesome interactivity with characters and how they view you. I definitely disagree it's not a masterpiece, but to each their own.
The things I pointed out before were just examples.
Bad examples.
Story wouldn't be that good if the plot has stopped with explainations such as "Holy shit, zombies! We gotta run!"
… [view original content]
Everyone I know whose played ME either never cried, or shed a couple tears at the shitty ending. I'm soppy however and I cried when Tali was reunited with Rannoch, cried at Legion's death, Grunt's 'sacrifice' (Did the loyalty missions, he survived in the end, phew), Thane's death... And at a few other events. Thing is, these instances usually just involved a lone, dribbling tear or a clammy throat rather than the full-blown Niagara Falls which was No Time Left. I even cry when replaying the happy moments of TWD. T_T
So plot timing is your main issue, right?
Nope. But it was kinda weird how it took all evening to get to the Hershel's farm placed "just outside the city".
Lee Everett was in ME 2, he plays that one black guy's father who went crazy and had sex with the crew or whatever. Any game he touches it goes to gold.
Your complaint of how the game isnt actually tailored to you is legit. Everyone on the board realized that from E.1 and Ep.2, but it was easy to got caught up in and overlooked later on.
I just came to interpret that "Choices matter" meant choices matter to YOU. The game gave enough interactions for me to really get stuck in. The fact that I can at least say what I think I would say in that situation was enough to really get me immersed. Yeah, it would have been nice if the story followed whatever we chose, but I think TT realized that would have kind of watered down the main story. It would have been more difficult to make a convincing and emotional story that way.
As for the things that "make no sense" the only thing I agree with is Clem getting Lee into the jewelry store. No, didnt make much sense that she was able to pull him into the jewelry store, unless it was a nice smooth downhill slope.
As for the rest of it, someone mentioned the code on the police radio was for things like dog bites. Hes not been dispatched to any of the areas mentioned, he might be a little apprehensive that theres a lot of calls, but why would he think it would affect the highway he was on in any way? Crashing into the guy in the road was pretty stupid, but hey hes a cop, he probably figures people should be getting out of his way and no one would be walking across the highway.
"No reason to kill those characters". What is a legitimate reason for killing a character then? Duck's death was very emotional, seeing the spry young child slowly deteriorating was very well written.
Why would anyone search the shed in the backyard? They werent looking for anything specific. At that point they cared about food and medicine. They didnt search every other house in the neighborhood either. If anything, Im more surprised that there was a boat in there. Then again, I figure it wouldnt be all that hard to find a boat in a garage in Savannah, but pretty big coincidence there was one in the backyard they happened to be in.
I believed Kenny when he sacrificed himself. With the boat gone, he had nothing left, so he had a fleeting moment of decency when he realized he might actually be useful in a situation.
Definitely not. He would actually be able to find decent faults with season two, and then I would have to agree with him and dislike it even slightly more. :P
Definitely not. He would actually be able to find decent faults with season two, and then I would have to agree with him and dislike it even slightly more. :P
The moments you just described are what people found sad. A small minority that you know don't dictate everyone, using that I could say no one knows about TWD. The walking dead had one moment which was sad and that was it's finale. But anyone can pull off a sad finale. While Mass Effect has a constant flow of moments that pass a chill. While TWD lacks that.
If S2 got Game of the Year I'd give up on the industry. It's a good game but not that good... Story just wanders from one place to another. No build up. May as well just be called "Kenny: A game about Kenny"
If S2 got Game of the Year I'd give up on the industry. It's a good game but not that good... Story just wanders from one place to another. No build up. May as well just be called "Kenny: A game about Kenny"
I'm not saying that said minority dictates everyone, I'm just giving you what I've seen from experience. It's definitely not easy to pull off a sad finale... Mass Effect and TWD's endings are the only ones that have managed to invoke emotion in me. Your opinion that only TWD's ending was morose doesn't dictate everyone else's either... Moments like Kenny taking out Ben and Duck's death get me every time.
Anyway, both are fucking great and I'm a fellow Talimancer. ^^ I just prefer the bleak hopelessness and reality of TWD rather than Mass Effect's space opera setting. c:
The moments you just described are what people found sad. A small minority that you know don't dictate everyone, using that I could say no o… morene knows about TWD. The walking dead had one moment which was sad and that was it's finale. But anyone can pull off a sad finale. While Mass Effect has a constant flow of moments that pass a chill. While TWD lacks that.
I don't know who is crazy to say that any game last generation or that generation is a masterpiece ( Neither TLOU neither GTA5 neither S1, S2 ). Considering is a ADVENTURE game, is much better comparing with AAA titles. You don't have much arguments here, seriously; it's a game, and you pointed the wrong things in Season 1, if you talk about Season 2 I will understand, but you not. Season 1 have MUCH more history developing comparing with Season 2. But Season 2, for example, shows the maturation of a child, basically.. People still like the game, me too, I hope you play Season 3 anyway ( And I think Season 2 probably will win History Awards, for sure. )
While it not as emotional Mass effect had great gameplay as well as story , the walking dead is essentially a choice based story, pressing a button every now and then dosnt make good gameplay. I dont hate QTE's or story based games but still its another issue
I'm not saying that said minority dictates everyone, I'm just giving you what I've seen from experience. It's definitely not easy to pull of… moref a sad finale... Mass Effect and TWD's endings are the only ones that have managed to invoke emotion in me. Your opinion that only TWD's ending was morose doesn't dictate everyone else's either... Moments like Kenny taking out Ben and Duck's death get me every time.
Anyway, both are fucking great and I'm a fellow Talimancer. ^^ I just prefer the bleak hopelessness and reality of TWD rather than Mass Effect's space opera setting. c:
Ehh, Mass Effect's gameplay wasn't exactly innovative. It was snorefest filler between the fantastic dialogue and overall plot. I prefer how Telltale just place all focus on dialogue choices and narrative.
While it not as emotional Mass effect had great gameplay as well as story , the walking dead is essentially a choice based story, pressing … morea button every now and then dosnt make good gameplay. I dont hate QTE's or story based games but still its another issue
If S2 got Game of the Year I'd give up on the industry. It's a good game but not that good... Story just wanders from one place to another. No build up. May as well just be called "Kenny: A game about Kenny"
Seriously, why did you post here? I get that you wanted to voice your opinion, but you posted this in the TELLTALE forum. Of course people are going to strongly disagree with you on this. You have some valid points yes, but to be honest, they hold little merit to why I like this series. One I especially disagree with was Duck and Kat's death happening only for Kenny to get more "development" and all I can say to that is flat-out bullshit. The primary theme of this series has ALWAYS been death. The concept of death is the key concept that Telltale used when they begun development of this series, and it's still like that to this day.
Comments
Season 2's thematically very different to Season 1. It feels constantly hopeless and dreary at all times... It's all about loneliness.
So plot timing is your main issue, right? That makes no sense. Events that break equilibrium are necessary for a story to be engaging, otherwise it'd just end up like EastEnders. I wouldn't want to see Lee and Clem merrily live their lives on the completely innocent St. Johns farm for three episodes.
Yeah... Well i think a lot of it has to do with the maturity of some of the people here. Obvious troll thread, and people took the bait. They should of said "I have to agree to disagree." about your opinion and left it at that. I loved Mass Effect 1 & 2 , however 3's ending gave me cancer. I'm still struggling everyday.... Red, Green, Blue, what do i do!
Meh, Mass Effect was a great power fantasy and all and an excellent game with brilliant characters, (Keelah se'lai) however it didn't generate anything near to the emotional response TWD managed, so as far as I'm concerned it falls behind from a storytelling standpoint.
From what I saw, it was a cut, but the windows were still intact meaning it couldn't be a piece of glass. Anyway, it's just an example.
Yeah, and he took the wiskhey hoping it will help him survive.
I enjoyed TWDG more, because they were shorter, easier to play with others.
Nope. But it was kinda weird how it took all evening to get to the Hershel's farm placed "just outside the city".
It has no less false tension than any other fictional tale, ever. The illusion of choice has no bearing on the plot (for the most part), but it makes for some awesome interactivity with characters and how they view you. I definitely disagree it's not a masterpiece, but to each their own.
Bad examples.
What? My translation: "Story would have been better if there weren't so many "Holy shit, zombies! We gotta run!" moments..... In the zombie apocalypse? Please, do tell.
Like what? Why would they change them? Every story has things that could be changed, but then it's a different story. Batman stories could have batman die each time and the villain blows up Gotham City, but no one wants to see that.
Are you arguing against story here? I don't understand the point you're making.
So you come for explanation, get an overwhelming amount of it (on a forum of the game, where the loves reside) and your entire argument is nullified a multitude of times, and now explanation is considered "ridiculous behavior,".... why are you here again?
Most of the people I see are completely ok with your opinion. It's you who is rejecting logic and the opinions of others.
Translation?: It's easier for people to disagree with you than to be forced reality (or something like that, to be honest you completely lost me there) It's actually easier for people to give a coherent, realistic argument as to why you're wrong.
Yes, there are.
I would never say that.... but if you're going to.........
Something doesn't necessarily have to be razor sharp to leave an open wound. Haven't you ever bled from stubbing your toe or banging against the corner of a wall?
If I'm that kid, I'm grabbing whatever the hell I can. He's probably never tried whiskey before so maybe he brought it up there thinking that if it comes to it, he could drink it. Then maybe tried it and realized that it's basically like drinking smoke. It's also possible that the whiskey simply happened to have been stored in the attic.
There were a few things that have lead to problems in this thread. The first was assuming that people would notice or care about the same details you cared about. That's not to say that the details that you care about do not matter; it's just that people pay attention to and care about the details that catch their attention. People also have varying levels of acceptance to the details that just don't make sense. For example, when I'm playing, I always notice that the characters pull huge items out of their pockets. Does that make sense? Not really. Does it kill the experience for me? I wouldn't say so.
You understand that certain things happen just to move the plot along and create character development. That's necessary in every story. Writers have many approaches to this. I understand if you didn't particularly care how Katjaa's character was handled in the grand scheme of things, but I do think that you had a different viewpoint while you were playing through the game. Was she "Kenny's wife" as you were interacting with her throughout the game, or did she only become "Kenny's wife" after she died. I understand that critical thought about the plot points are necessary, but the primary goal of this game is to entertain, and I was at least entertained by the majority of characters and situations in this game.
I guess the short version of what I'm trying to say is this: people have different expectations of games which leads to different ways of thinking about the games which leads to different experiences of the games. In other words, your mileage may vary. You gave the game a shot, and you thought it was decent. Nothing wrong with that. It's just that most people here feel differently and don't really understand your complaints because their priorities while playing were completely different.
Very accurate summary, I agree.
That was funny, take my like.
I think there are many instances in Mass Effect where people cried. In TWD? 1.
Lee Everett was in ME 2, he plays that one black guy's father who went crazy and had sex with the crew or whatever. Any game he touches it goes to gold.
*face the reality
Just chiming in because I'm 90%ish sure that's what he meant to say.
And yes, that's BS
Guys and gals, we need to encourage @Gloomy to play Season 2.
Everyone I know whose played ME either never cried, or shed a couple tears at the shitty ending. I'm soppy however and I cried when Tali was reunited with Rannoch, cried at Legion's death, Grunt's 'sacrifice' (Did the loyalty missions, he survived in the end, phew), Thane's death... And at a few other events. Thing is, these instances usually just involved a lone, dribbling tear or a clammy throat rather than the full-blown Niagara Falls which was No Time Left. I even cry when replaying the happy moments of TWD. T_T
That's nitpicking again, lol.
Characters or players?
Season 2 is GOTY material.
masterpiece isn't the right word.
He also played Warlord Okeer. Sacrificed himself so that a newborn could live. Huh, sounds familiar...
Oh good, then my response still makes sense
Your complaint of how the game isnt actually tailored to you is legit. Everyone on the board realized that from E.1 and Ep.2, but it was easy to got caught up in and overlooked later on.
I just came to interpret that "Choices matter" meant choices matter to YOU. The game gave enough interactions for me to really get stuck in. The fact that I can at least say what I think I would say in that situation was enough to really get me immersed. Yeah, it would have been nice if the story followed whatever we chose, but I think TT realized that would have kind of watered down the main story. It would have been more difficult to make a convincing and emotional story that way.
As for the things that "make no sense" the only thing I agree with is Clem getting Lee into the jewelry store. No, didnt make much sense that she was able to pull him into the jewelry store, unless it was a nice smooth downhill slope.
As for the rest of it, someone mentioned the code on the police radio was for things like dog bites. Hes not been dispatched to any of the areas mentioned, he might be a little apprehensive that theres a lot of calls, but why would he think it would affect the highway he was on in any way? Crashing into the guy in the road was pretty stupid, but hey hes a cop, he probably figures people should be getting out of his way and no one would be walking across the highway.
"No reason to kill those characters". What is a legitimate reason for killing a character then? Duck's death was very emotional, seeing the spry young child slowly deteriorating was very well written.
Why would anyone search the shed in the backyard? They werent looking for anything specific. At that point they cared about food and medicine. They didnt search every other house in the neighborhood either. If anything, Im more surprised that there was a boat in there. Then again, I figure it wouldnt be all that hard to find a boat in a garage in Savannah, but pretty big coincidence there was one in the backyard they happened to be in.
I believed Kenny when he sacrificed himself. With the boat gone, he had nothing left, so he had a fleeting moment of decency when he realized he might actually be useful in a situation.
Definitely not. He would actually be able to find decent faults with season two, and then I would have to agree with him and dislike it even slightly more. :P
You think we should expect a long-ass essay titled "Why I think Season 2 sucks even more than Season 1"? :>
The moments you just described are what people found sad. A small minority that you know don't dictate everyone, using that I could say no one knows about TWD. The walking dead had one moment which was sad and that was it's finale. But anyone can pull off a sad finale. While Mass Effect has a constant flow of moments that pass a chill. While TWD lacks that.
Yeah. Might as well be.
If S2 got Game of the Year I'd give up on the industry. It's a good game but not that good... Story just wanders from one place to another. No build up. May as well just be called "Kenny: A game about Kenny"
I'm not saying that said minority dictates everyone, I'm just giving you what I've seen from experience. It's definitely not easy to pull off a sad finale... Mass Effect and TWD's endings are the only ones that have managed to invoke emotion in me. Your opinion that only TWD's ending was morose doesn't dictate everyone else's either... Moments like Kenny taking out Ben and Duck's death get me every time.
Anyway, both are fucking great and I'm a fellow Talimancer. ^^ I just prefer the bleak hopelessness and reality of TWD rather than Mass Effect's space opera setting. c:
I'd regurgitate my stomach lining if that happened. We get enough of it already! T_T
Yeah, the alley scene.
Stay strong, friend! It's just the opinion war, we're gonna get through this.
I don't know who is crazy to say that any game last generation or that generation is a masterpiece ( Neither TLOU neither GTA5 neither S1, S2 ). Considering is a ADVENTURE game, is much better comparing with AAA titles. You don't have much arguments here, seriously; it's a game, and you pointed the wrong things in Season 1, if you talk about Season 2 I will understand, but you not. Season 1 have MUCH more history developing comparing with Season 2. But Season 2, for example, shows the maturation of a child, basically.. People still like the game, me too, I hope you play Season 3 anyway ( And I think Season 2 probably will win History Awards, for sure. )
While it not as emotional Mass effect had great gameplay as well as story , the walking dead is essentially a choice based story, pressing a button every now and then dosnt make good gameplay. I dont hate QTE's or story based games but still its another issue
Ehh, Mass Effect's gameplay wasn't exactly innovative. It was snorefest filler between the fantastic dialogue and overall plot. I prefer how Telltale just place all focus on dialogue choices and narrative.
I don't understand your point do you want a refund or something
holy shit stop posting
It's a kind of fish.
Who's the second main character: Kenny
Who is talked about the most: Kenny
Who gets the most 'development': Kenny
Who is the center of most scenes: Kenny
Who is the fan favorite: Kenny
Who is every character talking about in almost every scene: Kenny
Who is actually the main 'villain' of the game: Kenny
Who is the overarcing focus of the game: Kenny
The Walking Kenny: Season Kenny
Staring Kenny
Co-staring everyone else.
I lol'd.
Seriously, why did you post here? I get that you wanted to voice your opinion, but you posted this in the TELLTALE forum. Of course people are going to strongly disagree with you on this. You have some valid points yes, but to be honest, they hold little merit to why I like this series. One I especially disagree with was Duck and Kat's death happening only for Kenny to get more "development" and all I can say to that is flat-out bullshit. The primary theme of this series has ALWAYS been death. The concept of death is the key concept that Telltale used when they begun development of this series, and it's still like that to this day.