One of the things Season 3 HAS to get right to succeed.
I'm not talking about the hubs or length of the episodes, these subjects have been talked to death and hopefully Telltale have been listening to those concerns, but this is something else and more than just about the characters and their development, but to remember something important.
Now I want you all to ask yourselves this very simple question:
What made Season 1? What was at the core of that game, that made it so memorable and hit us emotionally in the way that it did?
The answer, is these two:
Season 1 wouldn't have been the same without that father/daughter connection between Lee and Clementine. Despite everything that went on, these
two were the focus and that relationship never strayed, not even until the very end where you as Lee had to not only say goodbye, but give Clementine advice for moving forward without him. The bond Lee and Clementine had was what made Season 1 so good, and why I think Season 2 doesn't hold up to the first season.
Now I want you all for a moment to just put aside your feelings on favorites and least favorite characters to answer this next question:
Name one character dynamic that stayed the course of the entirety of Season 2, that was not only consistant through nearly every episode, but was as strong or came close to the bond Lee and Clementine had in Season 1?
...
There isn't one.
We have Clementine form close bonds with characters yes, but nothing ever comes even close to what her and Lee had, and I think that was one of the issues with Season 2. Clementine doesn't need a Lee replacement, no character can replacement him, and we don't need another father/daughter dynamic copying what Season 1 did...but I do believe a dynamic or two with other cast members retaining that strength of what Clementine and Lee had in Season 1 is vital for Season 3 to succeed.
There's reason why TWDG Season 1 and The Last of Us did so good, because the connections between characters like Lee and Clementine or Joel and Ellie made us care for them. No matter what happened in Season 1, that bond with Lee and Clementine was one of the main focuses of that season, what made it so good because we cared about these two, and playing as Lee looking out for Clementine like she were a daughter. If Telltale really want to blow Season 3 out of the water and make it another game of the year or something close to it, then I really believe this is something they have to consider, if not with Clementine's character, then with whoever is present within the next season.
And on a sidenote:
Comments
For me the Lee/Clem stuff was fine but it wasnt really that interesting to me. Its been done before, the story and choices were the thing that made me enjoy it. Clem isnt really one of my favourites in season one and Lee was the player.
lol the lee/clem relationship was one of the most boring parts imo
Kenny had a Lee and Clem like relationship, but it was no where near as close as Lee and Clem's
... What?
So you basically found the whole season boring? k
I feel like the relationship that Lee and Clem had was season 1's thing and it should stay there, Telltale shouldn't try to replicate things to make the season good. I think if they want season 3 to succeed they should do something different this time around, and I think they will since they said we would have it at a new angle for season 3.
Trying to recreate season 1 won't improve the game IMO.
I get what you're saying but at the same time if Telltale tries to replicate it too much it might feel forced at it won't make the game better.
They kinda already tried something like this with Luke, and it worked for some but not all. Many would argue it just felt too forced and tried too hard to replace Lee instead of having a longer more organic bond between Clem and Luke like they did with Lee and Clem.
A strong central dynamic to follow the season would be great, honestly.
I feel those relationships act as anchors for the story. Even if everything else goes wrong, you still have that bond/relationship between characters at the core, no matter what happens. It's a constant in a series full of variables.
I agree. Season 3 needs to stand on its own feet.
Aye, that's what I mean
I think it'd be kinda cool to have a Daryl or Pete type character teach her about hunting and what not. More Daryl, because he's more of a badass. No disrespect to Pete, who has tons of wisdom. But yeah, Clem needs a whole group to, not die. Rick has like 20 people in his group right now. But poor little Clementine, at the most, has 6, if you're with Jane and the family(which I am not).
EDIT: Although, we don't know anything about the family, so their not technically apart of Clem's group. But, they could be, is the point I was making.
Top notch post... I understand what your getting at fully...
The magic of S1 was that they created a character (a child no less) that everyone cared for and was the anchor for us as protagonist, everything revolved her safety and how she would feel and react to any given situation....
This is the reason we were bashing buttons in a anxious attempt to make sure clem was safe... what seemed seemingly easy/simple dialogue options became preasued and meaningful because of our care for clem... for e.g telling her if we are going to look for her parents, it made no difference to game at all but they were big moments for us simply because of our care for clem...
The truth is we simply didn't have this dynamic in S2 and it showed big time... I just felt I was bashing buttons that come up on the screen, I never felt under presure, or a need to get somthing done, in S2 I felt very disconnected, more like I was a third party to the story, I never felt 'in it'
Basically we all need a common interest, somthing to protect.... a reason to be.. without this S3 and anything after it doesn't stand a cat in hell's chance of giving S1 a run for its money...
This is ONE of the reasons I dont think clem worked as a protagonist, to young... im not saying we need another farther daughter type dynamic going on again, but we need to have common goal.. somthing to make us mash those buttons
I don't think it's was Clementine as a protagonist that was the problem, Ellie's just two years older than her in The Last of Us and yet they had a really good DLC where you play as her and it works. For me the main issue while playing as Clem was that there wasn't a main focus and that there's little with the characters in Season 2 that will leave an impacted her in the future like Lee did, other than she's got a baby and having to say goodbye to Kenny.
So it's not really a case of we need someone to protect, but more of needing someone or others to care greatly about, that it effects how we make those choices, like we killed someone in front of Clementine or if said we'd go and look for her parents.
I agree with @Lilacsbloom 100%. I was really hoping Sarah would fill this role, but alas that wasn't the case.
You and your AJ GIFs ♡♡♡
No Going Back tried to be like No Time Left and left me unsatisfied tremendously. I just want Telltale to know Season 2 was very poor and to improve greatly
Can't help it. :P
I 100% agree with you and this thread is such an amazing thread and I thank you so much for creating this and actually letting people see that it wasn't any of the voice acting or the dialogue lines towards certain characters, it was the relationships between the certain characters and as Clem being the entire goal of the season with her making your decisions change so that she can stay happy is what made the game, and they tried that with season 2 and did it work? No! It didn't and it was all because the Lee-Clem relationship wasn't there THANK YOU THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CREATING THIS, I want to jump through my monitor and hug you so much I am so excited for you to have done this thread
)))
You have an amazing day!! :DD
The problem with season two was the unfocused and sloppy narration. I would've been comfortable with a minimalistic self-reflective story approach similar to something like Limbo. I loved S2E1, and still find it to be one of my personal favorites of either season. Excellently paced, well written, and most important... the main focus was on Clementine as a character all alone in a dying world. It felt genuine. Even the introduction of the cabin group was interesting.
But the fact the game kept pushing a ridiculous Lee-like "guardian" was ridiculous. If the game wasn't telling you Kenny is your "new Lee," it was Luke or Jane. I don't want a guardian, I want a group that feels genuine that can build off of Clementine. Instead the whole season two was concerned with every adult passing advice to Clem and forcing a relationship on the player, further alienating myself to hating many of them.
And then episode 4 completely shits the bed and after one of the most poorly handled and insincere deaths thrusts a horrible plot device in the form of a baby onto the players. Trying, now a total of fucking four times, to push a "surrogate" relationship onto a brat that scientifically should've died from the cold. What the season needed, if anything, was less guardian bullshit in the narrative and just have it about a young girl struggling to live through a post-apocalyptic world.
ssssshhhh we don't talk about the unnamed episode on this forums anymore :P
I get your points and i understand them 100% and I was too really fucking annoyed that AJ wasn't dead when Clem was freezing cold while she is in a puffer jacket, jeans and shoes and socks, where as a baby that has just been new born is in a blanket/cloth for like a week or something and he doesn't get a slight bit of frostbite, oooohhh nooo because babys are IMMORTAL :P
You sweet thing, thank you!
Actually before TWDGS1 and The Last of Us, there's only one other game that hit me by how well it did the dynamic with its characters. People have said The Last of Us is like a movie [and it is, one is even in the making now] but to me, it was Enslaved Odyssey to the West that made me think that way first, that this is a movie within a game because it captured that human element you didn't really see much of in games until that point, not in the way that Enslaved did it.
This clip was what introduced me to the game, and blew me away all those years ago, because the pair were so expressive it surprised me.
For the most part, it is just these two, Monkey and Trip. They know each other maybe about a week and yet their dynamic is so damn good, so subtilty crafted out on screen, you believe it. Yep, even within that short time frame you'll believe these characters honestly care for each other, despite having such a rocky start and the reasons behind why they are traveling together in the first place. I don't think much time is spent on their back stories even on what I remember; you know Monkey was orphaned and it implies here and there that what happened to Trip's village in the game with slavers attacking it happened to him too as a boy, but apart from that and a few things Trip gives mention on, it's both their performances and them as characters that wins you over, that you don't actually feel like you need much exposition behind these guys to understand them and where they're coming from. Even during laters parts of the game when Pigsy shows up and has lesser screentime than the pair, you still end up caring about that guy too
So when you go comparing a dynamic like this to Jane and Clementine's for example [who knew each other about the same amount of time] you can understand why I wasn't convinced, because Monkey and Trip did so much in their own interactions, sometimes even with something as subtle as a look, to just their body language. I might've gone on in the past about 'this character should open up' but sometimes if a character is compelling enough, they don't needs tons of exposition to make them interesting. If it weren't for the dynamic those two had, Enslaved wouldn't have been half the game it was; the dynamic of Monkey and Trip was at its core.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR5DXsi772U
So yeah, I'll always recommend this game because it holds a special place in my heart, so go play it! :P and if anybody at Telltale is reading this, I super suggest you go get this game too for some extra inspiration, or watch a whole playthrough online, not just cutscenes, the ENTIRE game start to finish. There is so much good content with the dialogue exchanges going on during the gameplay as well [much like what you get in The Last of Us] you need to see it as a whole to get the full picture on that dynamic. It might not be a second The Last of Us, but it's still darn gooood.
Ok well that's your opinion but mine is that it was the most beautiful thing in the series ;-;
I completely agree! I also felt like Telltale took for granted the love many people had for Clem in season 1 and they thought it would be enough to make people play the game and be invested in the story. But as much as I like Clem and also playing as her, they should've focused on creating something new and as emotional as season 1 instead of relying too much on its success and re-using the same ideas and characters over and over again (except for Clem since I think it is important for them to continue her story).