They consider Jane to be a psychopath? When is this said?
The reason they give is that they can't bear to be around Kenny any more.
Vis a vis Clem, the probably thought she wouldnt want to leave Kenny. This is a result of the game offering us very little opportunity to show dislike for the man, more than maliciousness.
How can you justify murdering someone over adultery, especially when unlike Arvo, Lee is a grown man who should know better than to kill someone over his wife's infidelity?
That's not the same thing. There is a huge difference. Lee's actions can be explained and justified. There is no way to justify Arvo and acts that he committed. There are no moral double standards.
So you think Lee is a dumbass more than Arvo? WTF? Lee killed the senator for a good reason, he slept with Lee's wife. He deserved that. Arvo shot Clem cause he had such a stupid reason. Arvo is no one to be forgiven. He needs to die.
Lee killed the senator for a good reason, he slept with Lee's wife. He deserved that.
I think a lot of people would disagree with you there in real life.
How can you justify murdering someone over adultery, especially when unlike Arvo, Lee is a grown man who should know better than to kill someone over his wife's infidelity?
Murdering either one of them is not a natural response in the situation when your partner cheats on you with a stranger. In fact, killing either one makes you a far worse person at the end of the day.
Can't really blame her when Lee was the one to make the decision to commit murder. No one likes to be cheated on, but it still doesn't give them the right to take a life.
..I'd break up with her.
Murdering either one of them is not a natural response in the situation when your partner cheats on you with a stranger. In fact, killing either one makes you a far worse person at the end of the day.
Can't really blame her when Lee was the one to make the decision to commit murder. No one likes to be cheated on, but it still doesn't give them the right to take a life.
Lee's actions can be explained - he murdered someone because he was extremely angry.
Arvo's actions can be explained - he shot someone because he had been physically abused, and was just about to escape his abuser when she stood in the way of that happening.
Remember the Lee flashback that happens right after you get shot? That says people do crazy things when they're in arduous situations?
it basically tells you that, as with Lilly shooting Carley or Doug, it's not as simple as saying 'SHE'S A MURDEROUS BITCH WHO DESERVES TO DIE'. Arvo parallels Lilly who parallels Lee; that's the point of the flashback.
That's not the same thing. There is a huge difference. Lee's actions can be explained and justified. There is no way to justify Arvo and acts that he committed. There are no moral double standards.
Not to mention that Arvo shoots Clementine because he's convinced that a child shot his wounded sister in cold blood when she was desperately trying to crawl away from the shooting, and he didn't have the chance to check if she reanimated because Kenny took him hostage when he was trying to resuscitate her.
Lee's actions can be explained - he murdered someone because he was extremely angry.
Arvo's actions can be explained - he shot someone be… morecause he had been physically abused, and was just about to escape his abuser when she stood in the way of that happening.
Remember the Lee flashback that happens right after you get shot? That says people do crazy things when they're in arduous situations?
it basically tells you that, as with Lilly shooting Carley or Doug, it's not as simple as saying 'SHE'S A MURDEROUS BITCH WHO DESERVES TO DIE'. Arvo parallels Lilly who parallels Lee; that's the point of the flashback.
Arvo shoots Clementine out of vengeance over the death of his beloved sister, which was also partially motivated by him being held hostage by her own group, and being physical and verbally abused on occasion by the very same guy who fatally wounded his sister (as the Russian translations states). Throughout the entire event he was never told that his sister reanimated as a walker and was lead to believe that Clementine shot down his wounded and defenceless sister in cold blood.
Lee kills a senator (and possibly his wife, if Lee's VA's interview is to be believed) because of his wife's infidelity.
When taking these stories into account, Arvo appears to have more of a justification than Lee to act the way he does. He only loses sympathy because Clementine and Lee are the protagonists, while Arvo isn't.
Though we don't know the whole Lee vs senator story, it's still a hell of a better explanation, than Arvo could have, isn't it?
Lee never tried to rob and kill Clem or the group, right? Moreover, his actions undoubtedly earned him a redemption. It is beyond comparison.
That Lilly vs Carley/Doug thing is also quite a different story. We have a loyal and dedicated leader of the group (so far) who:
-neglects basic gun safety (keep your finger off the trigger) and causes accidental discharge that killed Doug.
-under the influence of agitation kills the wrong person (that cannot be justified nor forgiven, though i think it would be OK, if Lilly killed Ben instead of Carley, but that's just me).
However bad and tragic it may be, that also can't be compared to Arvo, Mike (and Bonnie) situation.
We have a guy who tries to steal all you have. Twice. A guy who tries to kill you twice. No matter what you do, even if you don't give him any reason. A kind of a guy who won't hesitate to pull the trigger if you stand in his way, even when you don't.
So, regardless how much effort you put on improving his image and justify his motivations, there is no grey area here. Clem had every right to shoot Arvo in self defense. He did what the did, because he is who he is. An enemy. That explains his actions well enough.
Don't get me wrong, i understand why Arvo acted like that. I get it, he wanted to escape, he wanted his stuff back, he wanted revenge for his dead fellow russians, he was upset with Kenny for beating the shit out of him, he was mourning his beloved sister and blamed Clem for her death, etc, etc... But that's all bullshit, since every sad thing that happened to him, happened because of his fault. Arvo was responsible for the firefight between both groups and he is the only person to blame for all the consequences that fell upon him, and everone else. That's why i say he deserved it and he can't be justified. The way i see it, Luke died and Clem was gunned down because morons like Mike and Bonnie stopped Kenny from killing Arvo right after the fight. And we all know the outcome of it.
And since you mentioned that flashback right after Clem gets shot, then i bet you remember what Lee said about "doing what's best for the people you care about... even if sometimes... that means hurting someone else." Well, yeah. I've learned that lesson long time ago and totaly agree. I already knew exactly what should be done when i've seen Arvo, Mike and Bonnie stealing that pickup truck and all the supplies. And i couldn't even try to fire a shot, because of... limited autonomy in gameplay? And nobody from the staff came up that player may want it in the first place? Seriously? WTF? It is a game or a movie, goddammit?
I've seen it coming, after what happened and after what Arvo did before, it was no surprise to me. This is what the enemies do, if you let them. Plain and simple. It's hard to be even angry about it.
The only thing i find seriously annoying is that the game offers no option to be brave enough to fight back. Or to try at least. They even took away the option to shoot Mike. That was lame. And outright stupid. What were they thinking?
I really don't mind if some other players would choose to forgive Arvo, give up the gun or ask to leave with Mike if they want to, but since there is no chance to do the opposite, i consider this particular scene flawed and badly written. As well as very frustrating.
Lee's actions can be explained - he murdered someone because he was extremely angry.
Arvo's actions can be explained - he shot someone be… morecause he had been physically abused, and was just about to escape his abuser when she stood in the way of that happening.
Remember the Lee flashback that happens right after you get shot? That says people do crazy things when they're in arduous situations?
it basically tells you that, as with Lilly shooting Carley or Doug, it's not as simple as saying 'SHE'S A MURDEROUS BITCH WHO DESERVES TO DIE'. Arvo parallels Lilly who parallels Lee; that's the point of the flashback.
He was the 3rd best character in the game
Best? Are you kidding me? How is he the best after:
-He accused you for robbing even tho… moreugh you didn't
-He tried to kill everybody
-He shot you even though you were nice to him all the time
Why would you want to shoot Arvo?
Did you really ask that question? YOU KNOW WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ikr. Arvo is the stupidest kid I've ever seen. How come he deserves peace and chances? Why would anyone forgive him after he shot Clem? Arvo really needs to die.
i don't think you understood my comment whatsoever, considering i wasn't even replying to you. if anyone thinks that cheating on someone is an acceptable reason to murder them, you need a serious reality check.
as for arvo, i never implied there shouldn't be a choice to shoot him.
Good for you. Especially when you don't understand the difference between murder attempt and self defense.
But why there is no such option? Why players can't choose for themselves? The game is all about the choice, isn't it?
More like bad writing if you ask me. This particular scene does not match the rest and it seems poorly thought out.
If you can't make any choice in such important matter, then what's the point pretending it is a game? They've said, the story you experience is driven by the choices that you make. Or it is not?
Reducing available options by taking away possibility to shoot Mike only made it worse. This seriously bothers me, since the rest of the game is just outstanding.
To be fair he shoots you because he's been extremely physically abused by the people you run with, and you in that moment seem to him a the … moreonly obstacle from him escaping that abuse.
He's on edge and in a very bad mental state, not sure we can blame he himself for that so much. I mean, Lee shot someone for sleeping with his wife, while knowing nothing of the circumstances of it, and people are fine putting that down to rage rather than a point against Lee's character.
..I'd break up with her.
Murdering either one of them is not a natural response in the situation when your partner cheats on you with a stranger. In fact, killing either one makes you a far worse person at the end of the day.
Then we're on the same page. Since it's kinda obvious that adultery alone may not be sufficient to justify homicide, i've assumed, you refer to the main topic of this discussion. My apologies.
i don't think you understood my comment whatsoever, considering i wasn't even replying to you. if anyone thinks that cheating on someone is … morean acceptable reason to murder them, you need a serious reality check.
as for arvo, i never implied there shouldn't be a choice to shoot him.
No problem. It pissed me off how Arvo shot me when I was consistently nice to him/tried to help him throughout episode 5 - I wouldn't have shot him in my first playthrough but the choice to do so would have been nice in my second. (Why did Arvo even HAVE a rifle?)
Then we're on the same page. Since it's kinda obvious that adultery alone may not be sufficient to justify homicide, i've assumed, you refer to the main topic of this discussion. My apologies.
That's right. Plot thread concerning Arvo wasn't very convincing. Moreover, it wasn't interactive in a sufficient way. Apparently, writers needed more drama and they took the easiest way in order to build it. They didn't put enough effort, as they should.
And not only Arvo seems hastily written, but also the protagonist during the final interaction. Through the entire game, they let you decide how your Clem (and also Lee) would be, you can play your role and do your best even in most insignificant dialogues, and when it comes to the one of the most significant moment, such as confrontation with Arvo (and the traitors), you basically can't make any significant or even cosmetic choice that would express your Clem.
I can't help feeling, they were finishing episode 5 in a hurry.
Arvo was the start of a blemish conundrum that the writers made up last second that ended up being the lowest points in Season 2. Him showin… moreg up and robbing the group just felt so forced and stitched together in order to create contrived drama and conflict to build up to a cliffhanger ending which really didn't count for much in the end. Shame because this specific situation and so many other things could have been great with effort put into it. Season 2 might have been the greatest idea Telltale ever had but the most poorly executed
You're looking at it as a player, not as the character in the game. You as the player know the motives of Arvo more than the character because we paid detail and have time to think of the outcomes.With Clem, It just a last second situation and didn't plan on getting up to get robbed or didn't think to Arvo had any motives to shoot him, so having the option to shoot Arvo would kind of make Clem psychic or have some kind of incredible hindsight.
Because nobody expected Arvo to actually shoot her.
I did. It was almost guaranteed he'd harm someone. I wouldn't have killed him but in real life carrying more people around is stupid. I'd let him go.
Why Arvo have a rifle in the first place? I didn't agree one bit with what Kenny did to him, and I believe that much of his anger and revolt was because of the way Kenny treated him. Mike even said that after the truck was repaired.. however, I would never give him a gun.
It would have been an interesting option to be able to shoot Arvo. the big problem is that this would change the dream scene. and that's why not everything is under our control I think, because of the narrative.
Im so glad that I never trusted Bonnie, Mike or Arvo. I knew they were gonna ditch on me. I wanted to shoot Mike, just for Christa (and I heard this was an option before).
I think that whole scene was rushed because why would we get the option to pull the gun out if we cant use it. Why cant I shoot Bonnie either? I really wanted to shoot BONNIE!
Avro is just a Kid and you don't have to shoot him? Seriously?
You've gotta be kidding, that kid shot Clem! That kid accuses Clem and Jan… moree of stealing supplies even if they don't. That Kid is a member of a russian gang that attempts to rob and murder the whole group. Regardless how you treat him, that kid acts as your enemy and stays hostile all the time. That kid tries to lure the group into a thin ice trap.That kid convinced Mike (and Bonnie) to treachery. They are stealing everything from the group that have a baby. They try to steal the truck, leaving AJ, Clementine, Kenny and Jane to die from cold and starvation. When they are caught red handed, that kid draws a rifle at Clem and tries to murder her with cold blood, no matter what she says or does.
For me, it was quite obvious and predictable that Arvo will try to kill Clem in order to get away. I wasn't shocked nor surprised. Just angry, that I coudn't do the right thing, because … [view original content]
Hummm... That was creepy... But for real what Lee did had no justification, and unlike Arvo (and Lilly) Lee was sane and he wasn't living in an apocalypse.
So you think Lee is a dumbass more than Arvo? WTF? Lee killed the senator for a good reason, he slept with Lee's wife. He deserved that. Arvo shot Clem cause he had such a stupid reason. Arvo is no one to be forgiven. He needs to die.
Cause you're 3rd favorite character deserved to die. As soon as we defeated the Russian gang I (and I mean Clem, no one else) woulda shot him in his other leg, and left him for the walkers.
Think about it like this, if it wasn't for Arvo, Jane and Kenny would never have fought, and the way better thing Luke wouldn't have died.
But then if I had control of Clem, so many things woulda went different
Ah, Arvo... Thinking of him makes me wanna break his healthy leg.
Seriously, he, Jane and Kenny (even though I like him) ruined the entire season 2 for me and most of my friends who played it.
I wish that was an option, or that Clementine woke up Jane or Kenny and confronted Arvo and the traitors. That way, when Clem is shot, Jane, Kenny or both shoot the rest of the assholes! I hope they make an appearance in the season 3 and that they are killable. Seriously! I don't think they don't have any chance to redeem themselves, Mike will probably keep blaming Kenny for the actions he made, Bonnie will either loathe Clem or pathetically beg for forgiveness while Arvo would constatly glare and mutter Russian words.
I think Telltale is definitely planning to do something with Mike and Arvo, since they removed option to shoot Mike and replaced with crappy decison to come with the group who planned to steal your supplies, truck and leave you with nothing. Bonnie is dead in my game, so I better hope that I see them again and that I will HAVE TO shoot Arvo in S3.
Comments
They consider Jane to be a psychopath? When is this said?
The reason they give is that they can't bear to be around Kenny any more.
Vis a vis Clem, the probably thought she wouldnt want to leave Kenny. This is a result of the game offering us very little opportunity to show dislike for the man, more than maliciousness.
How can you justify murdering someone over adultery, especially when unlike Arvo, Lee is a grown man who should know better than to kill someone over his wife's infidelity?
I think a lot of people would disagree with you there in real life.
What if your girlfriend cheats on you and a man sleeps with her? What would you do?
If you wanna blame someone, blame Lee's stupid wife.
..I'd break up with her.
Murdering either one of them is not a natural response in the situation when your partner cheats on you with a stranger. In fact, killing either one makes you a far worse person at the end of the day.
Can't really blame her when Lee was the one to make the decision to commit murder. No one likes to be cheated on, but it still doesn't give them the right to take a life.
Plot convenience. It literally is the reason for anything in these games, just go with it.
Still, you can't compare Lee with a scumbag like Arvo
Lee regreted doing that when Arvo didn't to his own.
Lee's actions can be explained - he murdered someone because he was extremely angry.
Arvo's actions can be explained - he shot someone because he had been physically abused, and was just about to escape his abuser when she stood in the way of that happening.
Remember the Lee flashback that happens right after you get shot? That says people do crazy things when they're in arduous situations?
it basically tells you that, as with Lilly shooting Carley or Doug, it's not as simple as saying 'SHE'S A MURDEROUS BITCH WHO DESERVES TO DIE'. Arvo parallels Lilly who parallels Lee; that's the point of the flashback.
Not to mention that Arvo shoots Clementine because he's convinced that a child shot his wounded sister in cold blood when she was desperately trying to crawl away from the shooting, and he didn't have the chance to check if she reanimated because Kenny took him hostage when he was trying to resuscitate her.
Arvo shoots Clementine out of vengeance over the death of his beloved sister, which was also partially motivated by him being held hostage by her own group, and being physical and verbally abused on occasion by the very same guy who fatally wounded his sister (as the Russian translations states). Throughout the entire event he was never told that his sister reanimated as a walker and was lead to believe that Clementine shot down his wounded and defenceless sister in cold blood.
Lee kills a senator (and possibly his wife, if Lee's VA's interview is to be believed) because of his wife's infidelity.
When taking these stories into account, Arvo appears to have more of a justification than Lee to act the way he does. He only loses sympathy because Clementine and Lee are the protagonists, while Arvo isn't.
I feel the same way when people tell me S2 is good. People have different opinions.
We don't know if Arvi regretted it or not yet.
Arvo*
well i certainly wouldn't fucking murder him
Good for you. Especially when you don't understand the difference between murder attempt and self defense.
But why there is no such option? Why players can't choose for themselves? The game is all about the choice, isn't it?
Though we don't know the whole Lee vs senator story, it's still a hell of a better explanation, than Arvo could have, isn't it?
Lee never tried to rob and kill Clem or the group, right? Moreover, his actions undoubtedly earned him a redemption. It is beyond comparison.
That Lilly vs Carley/Doug thing is also quite a different story. We have a loyal and dedicated leader of the group (so far) who:
-neglects basic gun safety (keep your finger off the trigger) and causes accidental discharge that killed Doug.
-under the influence of agitation kills the wrong person (that cannot be justified nor forgiven, though i think it would be OK, if Lilly killed Ben instead of Carley, but that's just me).
However bad and tragic it may be, that also can't be compared to Arvo, Mike (and Bonnie) situation.
We have a guy who tries to steal all you have. Twice. A guy who tries to kill you twice. No matter what you do, even if you don't give him any reason. A kind of a guy who won't hesitate to pull the trigger if you stand in his way, even when you don't.
So, regardless how much effort you put on improving his image and justify his motivations, there is no grey area here. Clem had every right to shoot Arvo in self defense. He did what the did, because he is who he is. An enemy. That explains his actions well enough.
Don't get me wrong, i understand why Arvo acted like that. I get it, he wanted to escape, he wanted his stuff back, he wanted revenge for his dead fellow russians, he was upset with Kenny for beating the shit out of him, he was mourning his beloved sister and blamed Clem for her death, etc, etc... But that's all bullshit, since every sad thing that happened to him, happened because of his fault. Arvo was responsible for the firefight between both groups and he is the only person to blame for all the consequences that fell upon him, and everone else. That's why i say he deserved it and he can't be justified. The way i see it, Luke died and Clem was gunned down because morons like Mike and Bonnie stopped Kenny from killing Arvo right after the fight. And we all know the outcome of it.
And since you mentioned that flashback right after Clem gets shot, then i bet you remember what Lee said about "doing what's best for the people you care about... even if sometimes... that means hurting someone else." Well, yeah. I've learned that lesson long time ago and totaly agree. I already knew exactly what should be done when i've seen Arvo, Mike and Bonnie stealing that pickup truck and all the supplies. And i couldn't even try to fire a shot, because of... limited autonomy in gameplay? And nobody from the staff came up that player may want it in the first place? Seriously? WTF? It is a game or a movie, goddammit?
I've seen it coming, after what happened and after what Arvo did before, it was no surprise to me. This is what the enemies do, if you let them. Plain and simple. It's hard to be even angry about it.
The only thing i find seriously annoying is that the game offers no option to be brave enough to fight back. Or to try at least. They even took away the option to shoot Mike. That was lame. And outright stupid. What were they thinking?
I really don't mind if some other players would choose to forgive Arvo, give up the gun or ask to leave with Mike if they want to, but since there is no chance to do the opposite, i consider this particular scene flawed and badly written. As well as very frustrating.
I want to introduce you to a Magical word called, "Opinion"
Fixed it for ya
Oops, I thought this was referring to Kenny--to canonically die.
I'm very disappointed v_v
[removed]
i don't think you understood my comment whatsoever, considering i wasn't even replying to you. if anyone thinks that cheating on someone is an acceptable reason to murder them, you need a serious reality check.
as for arvo, i never implied there shouldn't be a choice to shoot him.
More like bad writing if you ask me. This particular scene does not match the rest and it seems poorly thought out.
If you can't make any choice in such important matter, then what's the point pretending it is a game? They've said, the story you experience is driven by the choices that you make. Or it is not?
Reducing available options by taking away possibility to shoot Mike only made it worse. This seriously bothers me, since the rest of the game is just outstanding.
Lee killed him in a fight, my guess is he strangled, or beat him to death. It's never confirmed how the senator died.
I don't think Lee meant to kill the senator, they got in a fight and he killed him. It's never explained.
Then we're on the same page. Since it's kinda obvious that adultery alone may not be sufficient to justify homicide, i've assumed, you refer to the main topic of this discussion. My apologies.
No problem. It pissed me off how Arvo shot me when I was consistently nice to him/tried to help him throughout episode 5 - I wouldn't have shot him in my first playthrough but the choice to do so would have been nice in my second. (Why did Arvo even HAVE a rifle?)
That's right. Plot thread concerning Arvo wasn't very convincing. Moreover, it wasn't interactive in a sufficient way. Apparently, writers needed more drama and they took the easiest way in order to build it. They didn't put enough effort, as they should.
And not only Arvo seems hastily written, but also the protagonist during the final interaction. Through the entire game, they let you decide how your Clem (and also Lee) would be, you can play your role and do your best even in most insignificant dialogues, and when it comes to the one of the most significant moment, such as confrontation with Arvo (and the traitors), you basically can't make any significant or even cosmetic choice that would express your Clem.
I can't help feeling, they were finishing episode 5 in a hurry.
You're looking at it as a player, not as the character in the game. You as the player know the motives of Arvo more than the character because we paid detail and have time to think of the outcomes.With Clem, It just a last second situation and didn't plan on getting up to get robbed or didn't think to Arvo had any motives to shoot him, so having the option to shoot Arvo would kind of make Clem psychic or have some kind of incredible hindsight.
Why Arvo have a rifle in the first place? I didn't agree one bit with what Kenny did to him, and I believe that much of his anger and revolt was because of the way Kenny treated him. Mike even said that after the truck was repaired.. however, I would never give him a gun.
It would have been an interesting option to be able to shoot Arvo. the big problem is that this would change the dream scene. and that's why not everything is under our control I think, because of the narrative.
Im so glad that I never trusted Bonnie, Mike or Arvo. I knew they were gonna ditch on me. I wanted to shoot Mike, just for Christa (and I heard this was an option before).
I think that whole scene was rushed because why would we get the option to pull the gun out if we cant use it. Why cant I shoot Bonnie either? I really wanted to shoot BONNIE!
Omg, I never heard someone so goddamned right in my life.
Hummm... That was creepy... But for real what Lee did had no justification, and unlike Arvo (and Lilly) Lee was sane and he wasn't living in an apocalypse.
Cause you're 3rd favorite character deserved to die. As soon as we defeated the Russian gang I (and I mean Clem, no one else) woulda shot him in his other leg, and left him for the walkers.
Think about it like this, if it wasn't for Arvo, Jane and Kenny would never have fought, and the way better thing Luke wouldn't have died.
But then if I had control of Clem, so many things woulda went different
Ah, Arvo... Thinking of him makes me wanna break his healthy leg.
Seriously, he, Jane and Kenny (even though I like him) ruined the entire season 2 for me and most of my friends who played it.
I wish that was an option, or that Clementine woke up Jane or Kenny and confronted Arvo and the traitors. That way, when Clem is shot, Jane, Kenny or both shoot the rest of the assholes! I hope they make an appearance in the season 3 and that they are killable. Seriously! I don't think they don't have any chance to redeem themselves, Mike will probably keep blaming Kenny for the actions he made, Bonnie will either loathe Clem or pathetically beg for forgiveness while Arvo would constatly glare and mutter Russian words.
I think Telltale is definitely planning to do something with Mike and Arvo, since they removed option to shoot Mike and replaced with crappy decison to come with the group who planned to steal your supplies, truck and leave you with nothing. Bonnie is dead in my game, so I better hope that I see them again and that I will HAVE TO shoot Arvo in S3.