I already explained why I call it abuse. If you still dont understand, I dont know what else to say. Also, you are exaggerrating everything I said. Treating him like a prince? Sucking his dick, seriously? Showing basic human compassion must be the worst thing in thhe world to you, if you dont like the person. Kenny was wrong. You say Arvo tried to kill him, which I dont remember, and you consider that as justification for what Kenny did. It isnt. I still believe he was beating that boy for no other reason than he needed an outlet for his rage. He has no excuse. Even he admitted he was out of control.
I'm talking about basic human psychology, how if for example, someone had the choice and the opportunity to steal from me and they didn't an… mored had protected me all the way against somebody who might have killed me, I'd show at least a little loyalty to them no doubt, and certainly not shoot them when they mean no harm, I would have understood if he shot Kenny, seeing as Kenny had been a little harsh with him. I just don't understand how you call it abuse, he's not abusing anybody. Arvo tried to kill the group and what would have happened if he did, then I have no doubt in my head that he wouldn't have been feeling guilty. You expect someone to treat him like a fucking Prince after he indirectly caused Luke's death by shooting him in the leg and could have got the group killed, not to mention they would have got to town faster and got Rebecca somewhere safe and warm if Arvoand his ho's didn't come and mess things up. I didn't know it was Valent… [view original content]
I'm tired of this shit. I already fucking apologized like a week ago yet you still continue to be an annoying fucking person. I already said i'm done now politely go away.
I disagree with this, he basically an antagonist that manipulated others my pretending to be weak and make his actions sort of understandable after being captured
I agree with Firewallcano. Arvo was in the group of bandits. You really thought that you could use sympathy from someone who tries to steal … morefrom you or even kill you? Arvo was a very bad written character that blinded people with his leg brace and innocent acting and looks thinking he was harmless. People should have seen it coming since Clem killed his sister. I don't see him with any purpose other that killing him in S3 along with Mike and Bonnie (thank God I left that horse faced junkie to drown).
As I said the way the writing entered him into the story was beyond ludicrous. They could have actually used him instead of constant death glares every two seconds
I agree with Firewallcano. Arvo was in the group of bandits. You really thought that you could use sympathy from someone who tries to steal … morefrom you or even kill you? Arvo was a very bad written character that blinded people with his leg brace and innocent acting and looks thinking he was harmless. People should have seen it coming since Clem killed his sister. I don't see him with any purpose other that killing him in S3 along with Mike and Bonnie (thank God I left that horse faced junkie to drown).
Well, that's the thing. Unless you speak russian you're not supposed to know that. So from our group's point of view, Arvo is a bad guy.
That does not make Kenny beating him up any better but in my opinion Arvo should've been executed right after the shooting - as quick as possible. This guy can obviously not be trusted, he's a big fuck up.
Ben at least doesn't want to do anything bad and regrets his decisions.
In the Russian translation, Arvo tries to call off the big t… moreattooed Russian named Buricko. Arvo says, "Buricko, Buricko, stop! Put your gun down! You don't want to do this!" but Buricko doesn't listen. Arvo also says, "They have a baby!" in Russian to his group, suggesting he didn't want to harm a group with a baby and that he was trying to stop his group. In addition, Arvo can say, "Oh shit! Nobody shoot, I don't want to die!" Again he said this in Russian to his fellow group. Obviously Arvo didn't want to fight.
Source.
I disagree. I can't speak Russian; I only found this translation after the episode came out, and it only backs up what I originally thought of him before I read the translation--that he was only a scared boy, in over his head and he didn't deserve to be beaten or killed either. You can see it in his body language; when he first met Clem, his hand holding his gun was visibly shaking (the camera even zooms in on it), and he says, "I no want to shoot, I no want to shoot little girl." During the shootout you can hear the fear and panic in his voice escalate as he tries to talk down his fellows in Russian. Arvo is clearly being exploited by the other Russians. Minus his sister, there's no doubt in my mind that they're just bullies that Arvo had no viable chance of getting away from.
Just because he can't be trusted doesn't mean you have to shoot him right off the bat, like a human life is worth nothing. I think the best thing would've been to have him tied up and with the group, but keep Kenny the hell away from him. Bonnie could've been in charge of guarding Arvo instead. She wasn't injured unlike Kenny, Mike, and Luke; she had the fire power to deal with Arvo if she had to; and she probably wasn't going to beat the snot out of Arvo every chance she got like Kenny did. If Kenny hadn't beaten the kid to pieces, I doubt Bonnie and Mike would've released Arvo to begin with, I doubt Arvo would've ever shot Clem, and I doubt the three of them would've ever felt the need to escape. Not to mention, if Kenny or Clem did kill Arvo right at the end of the gun fight like that, I think it likely that none of the rest of the group would want to stick around in the same group as Arvo's murderer.
Well, that's the thing. Unless you speak russian you're not supposed to know that. So from our group's point of view, Arvo is a bad guy.
Th… moreat does not make Kenny beating him up any better but in my opinion Arvo should've been executed right after the shooting - as quick as possible. This guy can obviously not be trusted, he's a big fuck up.
I already explained why I call it abuse. If you still dont understand, I dont know what else to say. Also, you are exaggerrating everything … moreI said. Treating him like a prince? Sucking his dick, seriously? Showing basic human compassion must be the worst thing in thhe world to you, if you dont like the person. Kenny was wrong. You say Arvo tried to kill him, which I dont remember, and you consider that as justification for what Kenny did. It isnt. I still believe he was beating that boy for no other reason than he needed an outlet for his rage. He has no excuse. Even he admitted he was out of control.
What are you talking about, determinant? Were you playing the same game I was playing?
As for Luke, that ambush had many people involved, not just Arvo, and in any case, we're talking about him falling through the lake, right? That happened because they chose to walk across the lake instead of going around, and were being pursued by zombies. Him falling in was an accident of the ice breaking under him. Arvo didnt cause that. But whatever, youre determined to blame him for everything that happened and lay no responsibility on anyone else. Thats fine. That still doesnt explain why Kenny is justified in beating him whenever he feels an itch in his fist.
Kenny was beating on him well before that
It was right cause he almost killed us all
what happened to Luke wasnt his fault any… moreway
Bullshit. He caused the ambush even though you never robbed him, if that never happened, Luke would still be alive.
My mistake. I forgot the part that Kenny punched him after the ambush.
That still doesnt explain why Kenny is justified in beating him whenever he feels an itch in his fist.
If you had a sister or a brother or someone you cared about a lot, who died at the place where a prisoner of yours told you to go, how would you fell and what would you do? (I hate my english)
What are you talking about, determinant? Were you playing the same game I was playing?
As for Luke, that ambush had many people involved,… more not just Arvo, and in any case, we're talking about him falling through the lake, right? That happened because they chose to walk across the lake instead of going around, and were being pursued by zombies. Him falling in was an accident of the ice breaking under him. Arvo didnt cause that. But whatever, youre determined to blame him for everything that happened and lay no responsibility on anyone else. Thats fine. That still doesnt explain why Kenny is justified in beating him whenever he feels an itch in his fist.
Let me simplify things for KCohere, seeing as his or her compassion is blocking all of her logic from functioning properly.
First of all, Arvo could have got the group killed, no matter if you took the meds or not. He didn't have a motive at all (if you took his supplies) and even if you did so, Jane ordered it, and Jane wasn't there. He was about to kill to kill the group for one person doing wrong, just to further fuel his ego. Why should he deserve any ounce of respect or compassion, when he got people killed and made normal people (who did nothing to him) die.
So you see where I'm getting at here?
I'll give you an example. Say if someone was being robbed by yourself, and you chose to not take anything, showing you are at least a half decent person overall. Then he got together a gang of people and nearly got you all killed. Then he got captured by you and your friend got pissed and beat him up. Then he convinces a few people to leave with him and steals your food, water, money and leaves you for dead. "Oh I feel so sorry, for him! The pain he must have gone through to steal all our supplies!"
Now I am probably never going to come back to this thread again, the trolls just disappoint me with their lack of intelligence and or logic. Every time I come back here, my palms get tired of how much facepalming I do every time I see a user romancing a fictional character. Although, I may return if I feel like something to keep me laughing for an hour or so.
What are you talking about, determinant?
My mistake. I forgot the part that Kenny punched him after the ambush.
That still doe… moresnt explain why Kenny is justified in beating him whenever he feels an itch in his fist.
If you had a sister or a brother or someone you cared about a lot, who died at the place where a prisoner of yours told you to go, how would you fell and what would you do? (I hate my english)
You guys are so hypocritical it fucking kills me over and over. Everyone hates on Jane and Arvo and no one gets the "shame" treatment. This thread is obviously problematic, but it's only bad when I make fun of everyone's favorite. '
On all of these "Why I hated (anyone but Kenny)" threads I never see any of you shaming them for obviously hating. If you are going to call me out, ok, but be fair and do it to everyone, not just "Pre-pubescent Kenny haters" (Btw, that thread got NO shame).
Yes, it would be very productive. Very productive in proving the fact that this section only has the ability to do the same things OVER and OVER again.
the horrible things Kenny has done?
Lol we had one on practically every other thread it's old news.
that'd be much more productive.
Eh none of the hate is very productive. People will always have different opinions
Seeing as you cant get passed your contemptuous attitude and engage civilly, and you still overexaggerate my points, its a good thing you arent going to continue this. Your bias is preventing you from understanding my point of view anyway, as you wierdly think Im "romancing" the character, whatever that means. So I hope you're laughing and having fun, but if you are trying to change my mind, you failed, sorry.
Let me simplify things for KCohere, seeing as his or her compassion is blocking all of her logic from functioning properly.
First of all,… more Arvo could have got the group killed, no matter if you took the meds or not. He didn't have a motive at all (if you took his supplies) and even if you did so, Jane ordered it, and Jane wasn't there. He was about to kill to kill the group for one person doing wrong, just to further fuel his ego. Why should he deserve any ounce of respect or compassion, when he got people killed and made normal people (who did nothing to him) die.
So you see where I'm getting at here?
I'll give you an example. Say if someone was being robbed by yourself, and you chose to not take anything, showing you are at least a half decent person overall. Then he got together a gang of people and nearly got you all killed. Then he got captured by you and your friend got pissed and beat him up. Then he convinces a few people to lea… [view original content]
Can you show me when I said I don't hate all these threads that come out of the forum? Because I'm fairly certain there were at least 10 times where I called this ENTIRE section cancer as a whole (not those exact words, but I've said this section sucks, which it does)
You guys are so hypocritical it fucking kills me over and over. Everyone hates on Jane and Arvo and no one gets the "shame" treatment. This … morethread is obviously problematic, but it's only bad when I make fun of everyone's favorite. '
On all of these "Why I hated (anyone but Kenny)" threads I never see any of you shaming them for obviously hating. If you are going to call me out, ok, but be fair and do it to everyone, not just "Pre-pubescent Kenny haters" (Btw, that thread got NO shame).
Let me simplify things for KCohere, seeing as his or her compassion is blocking all of her logic from functioning properly.
Another unproductive post that is insulting a poster.
First of all, Arvo could have got the group killed, no matter if you took the meds or not. He didn't have a motive at all (if you took his supplies) and even if you did so, Jane ordered it, and Jane wasn't there. He was about to kill to kill the group for one person doing wrong, just to further fuel his ego. Why should he deserve any ounce of respect or compassion, when he got people killed and made normal people (who did nothing to him) die.
So you see where I'm getting at here? I'll give you an example. Say if someone was being robbed by yourself, and you chose to not take anything, showing you are at least a half decent person overall. Then he got together a gang of people and nearly got you all killed. Then he got captured by you and your friend got pissed and beat him up. Then he convinces a few people to leave with him and steals your food, water, money and leaves you for dead. "Oh I feel so sorry, for him! The pain he must have gone through to steal all our supplies!"
Now I am probably never going to come back to this thread again, the trolls just disappoint me with their lack of intelligence and or logic. Every time I come back here, my palms get tired of how much facepalming I do every time I see a user romancing a fictional character. Although, I may return if I feel like something to keep me laughing for an hour or so.
It's amusing how you get angry over someone else's opinion. It really shows a lack of good character on your part. Just because someone doesn't want to see everything from your perspective doesn't make them a troll.
Let me simplify things for KCohere, seeing as his or her compassion is blocking all of her logic from functioning properly.
First of all,… more Arvo could have got the group killed, no matter if you took the meds or not. He didn't have a motive at all (if you took his supplies) and even if you did so, Jane ordered it, and Jane wasn't there. He was about to kill to kill the group for one person doing wrong, just to further fuel his ego. Why should he deserve any ounce of respect or compassion, when he got people killed and made normal people (who did nothing to him) die.
So you see where I'm getting at here?
I'll give you an example. Say if someone was being robbed by yourself, and you chose to not take anything, showing you are at least a half decent person overall. Then he got together a gang of people and nearly got you all killed. Then he got captured by you and your friend got pissed and beat him up. Then he convinces a few people to lea… [view original content]
Can you show me when I said I don't hate all these threads that come out of the forum?
You are obviously directly trying to shame me for my post, yet I never see anyone shaming anyone that says something bad about Jane, which is problematic.
Because I'm fairly certain there were at least 10 times where I called this ENTIRE section cancer as a whole (not those exact words, but I've said this section sucks, which it does)
Can you show me when I said I don't hate all these threads that come out of the forum? Because I'm fairly certain there were at least 10 tim… morees where I called this ENTIRE section cancer as a whole (not those exact words, but I've said this section sucks, which it does)
You are obviously directly trying to shame me for my post,
I'm not because, whether you believe me or not, I really don't care what you think at all. And I have nothing against you either, why would I try to shame someone over text written on a forum? Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
Why are you here if it's cancer?
The truth is I'm not actually here, I just stop here from time to time, if you haven't noticed I post way more on the other sections of the forum then I do here. And the reason I stop here from time to time is because it's a forum I spent probably around 8 months on till TFTBL and GoT came out, so sorry if I want to visit a section I used to hold sort of dear to me.
Can you show me when I said I don't hate all these threads that come out of the forum?
You are obviously directly trying to shame me… more for my post, yet I never see anyone shaming anyone that says something bad about Jane, which is problematic.
Because I'm fairly certain there were at least 10 times where I called this ENTIRE section cancer as a whole (not those exact words, but I've said this section sucks, which it does)
Why are you here if it's cancer?
I'm not because, whether you believe me or not I really don't care what you think at all. And I have nothing against you either, why would I try to shame someone over text written on a forum? Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
Goes both ways.
Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
I'm not paranoid, but when I see an obvious bias being upheld, I'm going to want to point it out.
You are obviously directly trying to shame me for my post,
I'm not because, whether you believe me or not, I really don't care what … moreyou think at all. And I have nothing against you either, why would I try to shame someone over text written on a forum? Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
Why are you here if it's cancer?
The truth is I'm not actually here, I just stop here from time to time, if you haven't noticed I post way more on the other sections of the forum then I do here. And the reason I stop here from time to time is because it's a forum I spent probably around 8 months on till TFTBL and GoT came out, so sorry if I want to visit a section I used to hold sort of dear to me.
I'm not because, whether you believe me or not I really don't care what you think at all. And I have nothing against you either, why would I… more try to shame someone over text written on a forum? Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
Goes both ways.
Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
I'm not paranoid, but when I see an obvious bias being upheld, I'm going to want to point it out.
Let me simplify things for KCohere, seeing as his or her compassion is blocking all of her logic from functioning properly.
Another … moreunproductive post that is insulting a poster.
First of all, Arvo could have got the group killed, no matter if you took the meds or not. He didn't have a motive at all (if you took his supplies) and even if you did so, Jane ordered it, and Jane wasn't there. He was about to kill to kill the group for one person doing wrong, just to further fuel his ego. Why should he deserve any ounce of respect or compassion, when he got people killed and made normal people (who did nothing to him) die.
So you see where I'm getting at here? I'll give you an example. Say if someone was being robbed by yourself, and you chose to not take anything, showing you are at least a half decent person overall. Then he got together a gang of people and nearly got you all killed. Then he got captured by you and your frie… [view original content]
The fact that people in this thread are screaming "I HATE ARVO" and the fact that you are not saying anything to them.
The fact that there are all of these threads that are EXTREMELY PROBLEMATIC and the fact that no one is shaming them because they are not talking about Kenny.
What you want me to personally reply to each one of them? I'm sorry for replying to you personally but trust me I didn't actually mean to single you out, so I apologize if I came off that way. Though what I said still stands, but not only to you, everyone who hates on something just to hate on it.
What bias? What are you even talking about? Lmao
The fact that people in this thread are screaming "I HATE ARVO" and the fact that y… moreou are not saying anything to them.
The fact that there are all of these threads that are EXTREMELY PROBLEMATIC and the fact that no one is shaming them because they are not talking about Kenny.
Comments
I already explained why I call it abuse. If you still dont understand, I dont know what else to say. Also, you are exaggerrating everything I said. Treating him like a prince? Sucking his dick, seriously? Showing basic human compassion must be the worst thing in thhe world to you, if you dont like the person. Kenny was wrong. You say Arvo tried to kill him, which I dont remember, and you consider that as justification for what Kenny did. It isnt. I still believe he was beating that boy for no other reason than he needed an outlet for his rage. He has no excuse. Even he admitted he was out of control.
I'm tired of this shit. I already fucking apologized like a week ago yet you still continue to be an annoying fucking person. I already said i'm done now politely go away.
I disagree with this, he basically an antagonist that manipulated others my pretending to be weak and make his actions sort of understandable after being captured
Gonna get a lil hate for this but Arvo was one of the few believable characters this season. Any problem I had with him was due to the writing really
He killed politician who was fucking his wife. That's two good reasons.
As I said the way the writing entered him into the story was beyond ludicrous. They could have actually used him instead of constant death glares every two seconds
FUCK YEAH HIGH FIVE
In the TV show he wasn't all that bad but in the comics he's pure evil. IMO these are two different characters at this point.
Well, that's the thing. Unless you speak russian you're not supposed to know that. So from our group's point of view, Arvo is a bad guy.
That does not make Kenny beating him up any better but in my opinion Arvo should've been executed right after the shooting - as quick as possible. This guy can obviously not be trusted, he's a big fuck up.
Lol we had one on practically every other thread it's old news.
Eh none of the hate is very productive. People will always have different opinions
I disagree. I can't speak Russian; I only found this translation after the episode came out, and it only backs up what I originally thought of him before I read the translation--that he was only a scared boy, in over his head and he didn't deserve to be beaten or killed either. You can see it in his body language; when he first met Clem, his hand holding his gun was visibly shaking (the camera even zooms in on it), and he says, "I no want to shoot, I no want to shoot little girl." During the shootout you can hear the fear and panic in his voice escalate as he tries to talk down his fellows in Russian. Arvo is clearly being exploited by the other Russians. Minus his sister, there's no doubt in my mind that they're just bullies that Arvo had no viable chance of getting away from.
Just because he can't be trusted doesn't mean you have to shoot him right off the bat, like a human life is worth nothing. I think the best thing would've been to have him tied up and with the group, but keep Kenny the hell away from him. Bonnie could've been in charge of guarding Arvo instead. She wasn't injured unlike Kenny, Mike, and Luke; she had the fire power to deal with Arvo if she had to; and she probably wasn't going to beat the snot out of Arvo every chance she got like Kenny did. If Kenny hadn't beaten the kid to pieces, I doubt Bonnie and Mike would've released Arvo to begin with, I doubt Arvo would've ever shot Clem, and I doubt the three of them would've ever felt the need to escape. Not to mention, if Kenny or Clem did kill Arvo right at the end of the gun fight like that, I think it likely that none of the rest of the group would want to stick around in the same group as Arvo's murderer.
Is it though. Is it actually morally defensible to murder someone for having an affair.
Even Lee didnt think his actions were defensible.
If Luke didn't die in the frozen lake, then Kenny wouldn't have beat the shit outta him. Arvo got what he deserved
My point exactly.
If he dies, how would you feel?
You don't mean that. IT IS FAIR.
Probably something similar to Ben's episode 5 death, so long as it's executed in a good manner and not like Nick's death.
I did feel a little bad when Ben died, but I'll never do to Arvo's. Can't wait for him to die.
Kenny was beating on him well before that, and what happened to Luke wasnt his fault anyway.
It was right cause he almost killed us all
Bullshit. He caused the ambush even though you never robbed him, if that never happened, Luke would still be alive.
What are you talking about, determinant? Were you playing the same game I was playing?
As for Luke, that ambush had many people involved, not just Arvo, and in any case, we're talking about him falling through the lake, right? That happened because they chose to walk across the lake instead of going around, and were being pursued by zombies. Him falling in was an accident of the ice breaking under him. Arvo didnt cause that. But whatever, youre determined to blame him for everything that happened and lay no responsibility on anyone else. Thats fine. That still doesnt explain why Kenny is justified in beating him whenever he feels an itch in his fist.
Someone Tell me i'm wrong.
You Can't.
Not much room to move in a 9 by 11
My mistake. I forgot the part that Kenny punched him after the ambush.
If you had a sister or a brother or someone you cared about a lot, who died at the place where a prisoner of yours told you to go, how would you fell and what would you do? (I hate my english)
Well, exactly.
So that guy being a politician was a good reason?
Let me simplify things for KCohere, seeing as his or her compassion is blocking all of her logic from functioning properly.
First of all, Arvo could have got the group killed, no matter if you took the meds or not. He didn't have a motive at all (if you took his supplies) and even if you did so, Jane ordered it, and Jane wasn't there. He was about to kill to kill the group for one person doing wrong, just to further fuel his ego. Why should he deserve any ounce of respect or compassion, when he got people killed and made normal people (who did nothing to him) die.
So you see where I'm getting at here?
I'll give you an example. Say if someone was being robbed by yourself, and you chose to not take anything, showing you are at least a half decent person overall. Then he got together a gang of people and nearly got you all killed. Then he got captured by you and your friend got pissed and beat him up. Then he convinces a few people to leave with him and steals your food, water, money and leaves you for dead. "Oh I feel so sorry, for him! The pain he must have gone through to steal all our supplies!"
Now I am probably never going to come back to this thread again, the trolls just disappoint me with their lack of intelligence and or logic. Every time I come back here, my palms get tired of how much facepalming I do every time I see a user romancing a fictional character. Although, I may return if I feel like something to keep me laughing for an hour or so.
You guys are so hypocritical it fucking kills me over and over. Everyone hates on Jane and Arvo and no one gets the "shame" treatment. This thread is obviously problematic, but it's only bad when I make fun of everyone's favorite. '
On all of these "Why I hated (anyone but Kenny)" threads I never see any of you shaming them for obviously hating. If you are going to call me out, ok, but be fair and do it to everyone, not just "Pre-pubescent Kenny haters" (Btw, that thread got NO shame).
On every thread? Proof?
Well this thread isn't very productive is it, yet that's ignored.
Seeing as you cant get passed your contemptuous attitude and engage civilly, and you still overexaggerate my points, its a good thing you arent going to continue this. Your bias is preventing you from understanding my point of view anyway, as you wierdly think Im "romancing" the character, whatever that means. So I hope you're laughing and having fun, but if you are trying to change my mind, you failed, sorry.
Can you show me when I said I don't hate all these threads that come out of the forum? Because I'm fairly certain there were at least 10 times where I called this ENTIRE section cancer as a whole (not those exact words, but I've said this section sucks, which it does)
Another unproductive post that is insulting a poster.
It's amusing how you get angry over someone else's opinion. It really shows a lack of good character on your part. Just because someone doesn't want to see everything from your perspective doesn't make them a troll.
You are obviously directly trying to shame me for my post, yet I never see anyone shaming anyone that says something bad about Jane, which is problematic.
Why are you here if it's cancer?
I'm not because, whether you believe me or not, I really don't care what you think at all. And I have nothing against you either, why would I try to shame someone over text written on a forum? Seriously, stop being so paranoid.
The truth is I'm not actually here, I just stop here from time to time, if you haven't noticed I post way more on the other sections of the forum then I do here. And the reason I stop here from time to time is because it's a forum I spent probably around 8 months on till TFTBL and GoT came out, so sorry if I want to visit a section I used to hold sort of dear to me.
Goes both ways.
I'm not paranoid, but when I see an obvious bias being upheld, I'm going to want to point it out.
ok
What bias? What are you even talking about? Lmao
Thank you. How long have I been here and Im the troll? ::sigh::
The fact that people in this thread are screaming "I HATE ARVO" and the fact that you are not saying anything to them.
The fact that there are all of these threads that are EXTREMELY PROBLEMATIC and the fact that no one is shaming them because they are not talking about Kenny.
This says everything right here.
What you want me to personally reply to each one of them? I'm sorry for replying to you personally but trust me I didn't actually mean to single you out, so I apologize if I came off that way. Though what I said still stands, but not only to you, everyone who hates on something just to hate on it.