Redemption? [Episode 5 Spoilers.]
So, I went through the game. I'm not all too happy though about the whole Traitor thing. It was way too cliche. & the reasoning behind it was predictable & stupid. Good on Telltale, though, for doing the whole thing about small choices matter too though ( I guess ). But it doesn't make sense for me. It's over something so small & from Episode one. Just because One or the Other wasn't chosen as Sentinel. It's ridiculous. I mean-- Maybe they were pressed for time, but they could have done better with how it played out. The Traitor could have told them they were being blackmailed or it could have been Lady Elissa or even Ortengryn who really turns out to be Ebbert Whitehill.
I dunno. It's just-- It kind of hits me hard because I like both of them. But there's also the fact that their loyalty should have stamped that out. They were both so fiercely known to be protective & care for the Forresters, that making Duncan or Royland the Traitor just seems so lazy. It's kind of dashed my hopes for the game, honestly, because there was so much else that could have been done or been added. So much more to make the story even more thrilling & exciting & gutwrenching.
But now, I wonder, if you spare them-- The true question of this all is: will they get a Redemption arc? A point where they realize their mistakes & get the chance to do something for the House again. A small subplot where we see them die as they protect a Forrester? That's what I'd like to see in the Next Episode if they were spared. Something that redeems them or makes them realize how much of a fool they were. Because both of these men are still useful. Duncan knows of the North Grove. & Royland is a military genius who could help them when they face down with the Whitehills.
Thoughts?
Edit: Both the reasonings given for the betrayal on each behalf both come after Episode Two. But Gwyn tells us in Episode Three that they've been feeding information ever since the occurrences of Episode Two. Although Duncan seems to give a more solid reason behind why he is Traitor compared to Royland.
Edit: Possible Redemption Point for Royland Degore ( Here's good writing Telltale. ); Cut into a scene in the Cells of Ironrath, before the battle with the Whitehills, with Talia & Royland. Royland having sat in there long enough to think about how much wrong he's done & realizing how stupid he had been just because he held a foolish grudge over not being named Sentinel. Talia's eying him with intense dislike but also wanting to know more about why he betrayed the Forresters & Royland just breaks down. He starts crying, which isn't something he ever rarely does, & he pleads with her to “let him go” because Rodrik won’t be able to handle Gryff & Ludd by himself even with Duncan by his side. She lets him go, although reluctant but listening to him going on a tangent about how they've been the only real family he's had since the Balon Greyjoy Rebellion & how he should have thought better of it makes her see that he's wanting to fix what he's done, & Royland heads off on a horse to go to the battle. The Battle's at somewhat of a standstill, both sides not giving each other any quarter but taking no ground. Ludd or Gryff are trying to to take out Rodrik. Royland arrives to join the battle. Thus, causing some confusion on both sides-- as one believes he's there to help them & the other believes he must have escaped & did something to Talia & Elissa. With Rodrik/Asher momentarily off focus, Ludd or Gryff takes a swing at him that he doesn't see coming, but Royland bodily throws himself between the sword & Rodrik/Asher. But he's kind of smiling wistfully at Rodrik/Asher even with the sword running through him & says "I'm sorry for it, m'lord. Forgive me." & he dies. This would be suitable for a man like him. ( Sorry. I'm in a mood. But it's an example, yeah? This one also works better with Rodrik. )
Comments
Redemption? Do you know that because of these traitor ASHER/RODRICK ARE FUCKING DEAD? How could I spare Roylands ass? The choice i mostly regret in the whole game.
Yeah I've played these episodes and honestly I'm not a big fan of the writing. I'm finding Tales much, much more enjoyable.
Yeah. I get that, friend, no need to shout. But it's just, to me, that all of it seemed unreal & unfair. The Writing wasn't really true to their characters if I'm honest, & yeah I know they're Telltale's creation, but two men known to be unconditionally loyal to the House betraying them over a stupid position of power? It's farfetched for me. & I'd like to hope, if spared, that they realize their mistake & try to fix it some way. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to defend Duncan/Royland for what they did.
I've not played TFtBLs & I'm probably not in the near future. Doesn't really catch my eye as I have no real idea about the series that it's in. But, at least, you agree on this point. It's not good writing.
Agree with every word you said about the traitor plot twist. Duncan's/Royland's motivation was so stupid and bad written (and also too short to explain all the plot holes it creates) that in the beginning I though it's some kind of a false maneuver. I think traitor's identity depending on Sentinel's choice is literally the worst script decision ever made by Telltale so far. It also proves that not every decision repercussion is necessary.
Indeed. They could have had better reasoning for why they betrayed the Forresters. E.g. for Royland, such as, resurrecting his fallen house. & yeah, definitely has created plot holes. It would have been better if they gave us something more solid then just 'oh i wasn't chosen as sentinel boohoo'.
Sorry im realy pissed at this traitor and thats why I "shouted". I agree with you that this was bad writing: supposedly these two men have been loyal to this house for years, and now just because a child refused to give him the Lord's Sentinel they start ploting everyone's death. Great writing TellTale.
Another, shtty writing I found this episode is that Ramsey did nothing. They used him just to make a good cliffhanger in the end of Ep4 and then he just comes kills someone and suddenly decides to not make appart of the war.
Claps for this writers.
Yes, yes; I understand. I would have liked it better if Rodrik & Asher were still alive. They've been a crucial part of the story for so long that it just seemed worse to make another heart-wrenching choice. The Family is already torn apart enough as it is. Yeah, I mean-- I've also watched the Tv Twitch link after playing through with Royland as my sentinel, & it's just-- Royland is like Family to the Forresters & he treats them like Family, but then Duncan gets the position of Lord's Sentinel ( Mind you, though, he was already Castellan which is already a powerful position. ) & Ethan/Rodrik listen to him instead of Royland & he's just 'these people are my family but oh haha fuck family they're not my real family even though they've treated me like such' & he even mentions that he saw Rodrik grow up & Talia says he's like family, so I honestly don't see how he could betray his family that Gregor gladly welcomed him into after Royland lost his actual family & has been with the Forresters long enough to know where his loyalties lie. It's just-- It's confusing at best. Even with Duncan. He was a Family friend that grew up with Gregor & was his friend & named Castellan, but fuck it all if Ethan didn't give him the Bracer of the Sentinel.
Mhm. I agree about Ramsay too. His insanely big plot armor that weighs down his head to where it sits in his ass is too great. & they know we couldn't do anything about him. He served no real purpose, other than to throw off all the progress we had been making. Which was stupid writing as well. I mean-- sure, take out the hope factor, but all our progress was just screwed over to set up the whole Traitor issue & to kill off one of the main playable characters. & plus, also not getting involved in the War between them. It seems really stupid & also probably just Ramsay & his twenty good men.
I didn't know anything about the Borderlands universe when i started either, but it isn't hard to get the gist of things. I didn't really think i'd like it, but i bought Ep.1 just to give it a shot.
It is seriously my favorite Telltale game. Every episode is better than the last, it's absolutely hilarious. Choices have a definite effect on the overall narrative and events in the game, there's money, and costumes, and awesome robot companions. Even romance if you want it, and one of the most charming Villians i have ever met. The characters are all very interesting and the dilemmas they get themselves into are fricken priceless. You should give it a chance, you might love it too
Mm. Like I said, probably not in the near future, but that doesn't rule out that I might play it later. My budget's a low one with where I work so I can only indulge myself so much every once & a while. & I've heard a lot of chatter & good things about it, so when I do get the chance, yeah-- I might check it out.
Well, i hope you get the chance to give it a go
Royland being the traitor was stupid. He wasn't even my sentinel and I trusted him more.
He's pissed a boy didn't let him be sentinel? Rodrik had no say in that!
It also caused a lot of plot holes. So Gwyn said that the Whitehills knew about the plan to Rescue Ryon/Expel Gryff right? But all the weaknesses in Rodrik that Royland mentioned were after that. Submitting to Gryff, Not bringing the Glenmores etc.
I spared him because I love the guy and still don't fully believe it. But I love the look his own men gave him, complete disgust as they were completely ashamed of him.
I hadn't thought of this! The bad Writing gets bigger and bigger!
Both Duncan & Royland were known to be the most loyal of the council. It's true to their characters that they are extremely loyal, Royland even more so in my opinion as he holds such contempt & hatred for the Whitehills that he will fight them at any chance he gets. It's Lazy Writing on Telltale's part because it opens up a lot of plotholes. Sure, WOW factor, but it's all so stupid. Royland/Duncan wouldn't work for a House that is actively trying to destroy the House they have been with. Duncan even more so since it's was a Bolton & two Whitehills that killed his brother & his niece. Royland because the Forresters adopted him into their family. Duncan's probably been with them for two decades & Royland for at least one decade to fifteen years based on the timeline correlating with the Greyjoy Rebellion.
& yeah, it's a petty thing. Holding a grudge over a child's choice. & Mhm, mhm. These are plotholes that have really dashed my hopes for the game because it all seems so rushed & ill-prepared in the end.
I spared Duncan in my playthrough because he's still useful with the North Grove & all.
Exactly I had Duncan as my Sentinel and I still trusted Royland more.
It seemed more like shock value then anything else.
It really was. Because of the two men you might trust most-- Oh, whoops, they betrayed you. Oh dear. Looks like you can kill them or spare them. The obvious choice is to kill them, isn't it? Yeah. Lazy Writing & choosing Shock value over anything that could have been truly substantial.
Exactly! Maester Ortengryn may have been obvious but at least he had motivations. Even Lady Forrester would have been more plausible, feeding the Whitehills info in exchange for Ryon's safety.
Exactly. The Maester had this greedy thing about him if you had talked to him as Ethan in Episode One & how he commented on how he sees gold when he looks at Ironwood & we know from the books/show that Maesters aren't always unattached as people believe, he could have easily been motivated by gold or by being moved to a better House. & that, too, would have been better motivation than some little grudge over a position of power. Elissa wants to get her son back & a Mother would use any means to protect her child, because that's how mothers work, that is their instinct, they have to protect their children-- doesn't matter how old they are, she will always still care regardless of what has been done.
Yup, the Maesters comment about gold and him wanting to be assigned to a different house made me raise my eyebrow. He would have been a perfect candidate for the traitor.
Elissa was less likely and I doubt she would go behind Rodrik's back like that but she still had more motivation then Duncan or Royland.
Indeed. Plus, The Maester was always not there whenever there was something big going down. So, he seemed flighty & suspicious because he was never there when it mattered. So, he could have been feeding information from the council & disappearing when it counted most.
i dunno, a part of my wants to believe that the traitor was covering for someone else.
maybe is just wishful thinking.
So if Duncan was the traitor, do you think the Whitehills were told about the North Grove? Is the North Grove actually going to help at all, since a potential traitor was the one encouraging Gared to seek it to "save House Forrester"?
that's a......... good question.
Yep, if Duncan knows about the North Grove. Then why the fuck would he be the traitor? It should be Royland. By that I mean the Traitor shouldn't be determinated.
Um spare royland's ass by the Erik decision mattering
you realize once the traitor is known people with the traitor as their avatar will switch also having Jurassic Park only 4 episodes was dumb
But look how much the maester looks like Ebbert
That's what I was thinking, like he wouldn't be a half ass traitor and he gave the Wall Ironwood shields, so where did that come from. what really is the grove?
your leaving out the maester who really looks like Ebbert
This is really a shame. People were saying this was the best episode so far, but after having this and a couple of other things spoiled by some angry guy that was quickly hit by the ban hammer, I have to say I am very disappointed with the writing. I am still hyped by Mira's story though, since it is my favourite and I didn't see any spoilers regarding it. I hope something exciting happens, or I'm afraid this will be the episode I like the least.
I wonder if this choice happens no matter what. For example, if you pick Duncan for a Sentinel, but agree with everything Royland suggests, the former still turns out to be the traitor? It's so stupid.
They should have based it on choices rather than Sentinel/not Sentinel. Like, if you agree with Duncan more, Royland betrays you, and vice versa. Or if it's an even balance, you could have it be Ortengryn.
Having Royland betray you doesn't make sense anyway--it's really out of character for him. And I'm no Royland-stan by any means.
Honestly, neither Duncan nor Royland should have been the traitor; I mentioned it before but they've been with the Forresters for so long that to get huffy over a position power is petty & wow-- these guys must have puerile states of mind.
Yes. It is a good question. Would he have told them about the North Grove even if Gared is out trying to find it? Was he going to give that information to them when Gared got the chance to tell him where it was? See-- More Plot holes. If it was Duncan in your playthrough, the letter could have at least mentioned the North Grove.
Most likely. I don't see there being loopholes like this.
Royland was honestly the only guy I truly trusted on the council because he was the only guy who didn't do anything behind Ethan/Rodrik's back. He seemed to be the one solid guy. But making the 'Not Sentinel' is your traitor made for a useless reveal.
Mira's parts were realy boring... Only liked the 1st one...
You know guys, its kind of poetic in a way - depending on who Ethan chose as sentinel - the traitor is determinant - and the dissent can be rooted towards a clash of ideals - the day Ethan made his choice he chose one ideal over another (a militant or a diplomat) - the ideal he embraced would stay loyal to him to the end while the one he rejected would conspire against his family - both Duncan and Royland were therefore not 'bad' people if either of them turned traitor - they both believed their own ideals could save House Forrester - and whoever's ideal was rejected would nevertheless try to 'save' the House by turning traitor.
Aww really?
Then I guess I'm going to be even more disappointed. At least I decided over the night to spare Asher - it is not fair for him to die because of Rodrik's mistakes, and after all those mistakes, maybe Rodrik is not the best suited to be lord after all. Now to decide what to do with the traitor. The reason is so ridiculous that execution is a no-brainer, but I wonder if seeing your house being ruined around you and people you knew your whole life that had nothing to do with Ethan's decision being killed, knowing is all your fault, is a worse fate.
It wasn't a Rodrick mistake... :O Do you already know why they have to leave someone behind?