Please go read several of the 12+ page threads explaining why the controls are the way they are.
That doesnt change the fact that many people still dont like the controls you came up with and thats why they're airing their opinion on it here on the debate forums. You know...debate doesnt mean people MUST agree with everything you do.
To be honest you seem to be in defensive-mode completely ignoring valid critique and acting all mighty like you can do no wrong. Sorry but thats just my impression. I would have had much more respect for a simple "ok fair enough, you have the right to different opinions and we respect that - we hear your critique".
Calling every post with criticism for "complaining" is too easy. It looks like someone (read: many, it seems) cant handle that people have something negative to say about their precious Monkey Island, it seems. Read Qwazin's post..it hit the nail right on the spot IMO.
that doesnt change the fact that many people still dont like the controls you came up with and thats why they're airing their opinion on it here on the debate forums. You know...debate doesnt mean people must agree with everything you do.
To be honest you seem to be in defensive-mode completely ignoring valid critique and acting all mighty like you can do no wrong. Sorry but thats just my impression. I would have had much more respect for a simple "ok fair enough, you have the right to different opinions and we respect that - we hear your critique".
Calling every post with criticism for "complaining" is too easy. It looks like someone (read: Many, it seems) cant handle that people have something negative to say about their precious monkey island, it seems. Read qwazin's post..it hit the nail right on the spot imo.
That doesnt change the fact that many people still dont like the controls you came up with and thats why they're airing their opinion on it here on the debate forums. You know...debate doesnt mean people MUST agree with everything you do.
Read the other threads, this has all been discussed before. The control change was necessary to accommodate the camera framing and cinematography. Point and click doesn't work if there's a single area where you can't see the area you want to click.
To be honest you seem to be in defensive-mode completely ignoring valid critique and acting all mighty like you can do no wrong. Sorry but thats just my impression. I would have had much more respect for a simple "ok fair enough, you have the right to different opinions and we respect that - we hear your critique".
The fallacy here is that you believe the critique to be valid. "Hey guys the controls are bad use point and click instead" is not a reasonable critique, it is a pointless one as has been discussed to death in many other threads. From my understanding of the direction we're going, you're unlikely to see point-and-click in ToMI or any future Telltale products.
A valid critique would be "I don't think cinematic cameras are worth the loss of point-and-click, you should rethink your cinematography direction for future titles."
Calling every post with criticism for "complaining" is too easy. It looks like someone (read: many, it seems) cant handle that people have something negative to say about their precious Monkey Island, it seems. Read Qwazin's post..it hit the nail right on the spot IMO.
When a vocal, extreme minority harps on the same thing again and again even after being told why it was done that way and that it isn't going to change, it's definitely complaining. Pretty much by definition.
I've never played a Monkey Island game, and the controls I implemented were the correct solution for our camera design. There's literally nothing to be defensive about, because nobody in this thread is going on an informed offense.
I'm just going to stop trying to explain the issue since it seems nothing I say will satisfy the handful of people who want the game to be 2D, point-and-click, with a verb coin.
I was actually thinking before I read Yare's last post "Man, it kind of sucks to be him explaining all these control things especially considering there's click and drag control." Then I got to the part about "Not bothering to explain anymore and just linking to this article."
Might as well. Good article and there are a lot of people who you just can't please. They'll adapt over time much like people who hated MI3's art style accepted it later. The extremely small market that won't can take their business elsewhere - the controls are NOT that bad. I personally really like TOMI's controls.
I've never played a Monkey Island game, and the controls I implemented were the correct solution for our camera design. There's literally nothing to be defensive about, because nobody in this thread is going on an informed offense.
I highly recommend you to play the previous Monkey Island games. They may be old, but they are some of the hottest games that adventure game players everywhere would definitely refer back to. Even if you are not all that interested in it, you should at least give a look at it to know what is the deal all about (like how people watch Star Wars to know why some fans even bother with the crappy storyline, crappy dialogue and a failed mega weapon design - self-destruct mechanism in Death Star).
I was actually thinking before I read Yare's last post "Man, it kind of sucks to be him explaining all these control things especially considering there's click and drag control." Then I got to the part about "Not bothering to explain anymore and just linking to this article."
Might as well. Good article and there are a lot of people who you just can't please. They'll adapt over time much like people who hated MI3's art style accepted it later. The extremely small market that won't can take their business elsewhere - the controls are NOT that bad. I personally really like TOMI's controls.
You know I was actually more tempted to paraphrase the theory of change implementation:
1 - Change announced; people voice strongly against the change, quoting that any change will only be make the process more inferior
2 - Change implemented; people polarised - some see potential and embraces it, in spite of teething problems; some are vehemently against the implementation, quoting a lack of freedom and their rights not respected
3 - Change gaining acceptance; more people embrace the change and see it as a norm.
You know, I personally did not like the whole idea of using a mouse when it first came out on a PC too. But what the heck!
Now, I can't even surf properly without my Razer Lachesis.
Telltale why have you not implemented optional TEXT PARSER CONTROLS don't you know mice cannot satisfy adventure gaming needs? EMPLOY YARE ON THIS TASK IMMEDIATELY OR I WILL NEVER BUY YOUR PRODUCT AGAIN
Telltale why have you not implemented optional TEXT PARSER CONTROLS don't you know mice cannot satisfy adventure gaming needs? EMPLOY YARE ON THIS TASK IMMEDIATELY OR I WILL NEVER BUY YOUR PRODUCT AGAIN
Wasn't there a text parser segment in one of the Sam&Max episode?
I'm just going to stop trying to explain the issue since it seems nothing I say will satisfy the handful of people who want the game to be 2D, point-and-click, with a verb coin.
I do like that you did explain your reasoning though, and in a frank and open way. It's really been instrumental in my understanding of the control scheme and why it was implemented the way it was.
I do wonder if the angles are worth it, though. While the walk up to De Singe's lab is nice, but I'd expect that to be one of MANY undoable angles should the control scheme be changing purely to accommodate them.
I'm not saying it isn't a benefit, surely. But if you ARE going to trade the ease of point and click for direct control, I'd like to see the benefits strongly in the way every stage is built. As it stands, a lot of levels still feel like stages in a school play.
And yeah, I do realize that the level design itself isn't your job at all.
I congratulate Mr. Yare for his patience. It took me a lot of patience just to READ the complaints and silly arguments. Got bored half-way through. Now I'm humming tunes in my head and thinking about LOTRO. Yay!
Is it only me or has anyone else also the impression that with the introduction of Monkey Island (or was it more the lack of point&click in Wallace&Gromit first) the forum somehow lost some of it's peaceful more relaxed spirit?
Sometimes it's getting rather harsh on both sides (fanboys vs. those who hate TOMI).
I've played the demo and I don't regret not having bought the Special Bonus Package. I won't buy the game at all.
Well that's what the demo's for - so people can decide whether to buy it!
- the control system is worse than in Monkey Island 4
Actually, I don't know about the controls - but I personally think that TOMI is what MI4 *should* have been.
- I don't recognize the good old Monkey Island humor
CMI's Humour was vastly different from Monkey 1 and 2... and yet much of the game is hilarious! I think the success was derived from such a perfect combination of voice and visuals. If you ask me MI:SE destroys a lot of this for Monkey1!
- the games environment looks very poor (they should have gone back to 2d)
It's certainly true that a lot of amazing things can be done with a good 2D framework. And I would like to see future adventure game incorporating the 2D interface... I think it's still achievable. I don't however share your view that all new games should go that rout.
Read the other threads, this has all been discussed before. The control change was necessary to accommodate the camera framing and cinematography. Point and click doesn't work if there's a single area where you can't see the area you want to click.
The fallacy here is that you believe the critique to be valid. "Hey guys the controls are bad use point and click instead" is not a reasonable critique, it is a pointless one as has been discussed to death in many other threads. From my understanding of the direction we're going, you're unlikely to see point-and-click in ToMI or any future Telltale products.
A valid critique would be "I don't think cinematic cameras are worth the loss of point-and-click, you should rethink your cinematography direction for future titles."
There are many forms of an invalid argument, that however is not one of them. MI:SE controls are quite bad - the inventory and verb list disappear whenever you click something; and at the same time if you don't want to click anything you have to use the hotkey to remove the dialogue! No such problem in TOMI.
There were other ways to accommodate p&c - to simply say it's impossible ignores the fact that pointing and clicking on items moves guybrush to them, but pointing and clicking on paths does nothing!
Of course, you could point out that people are ignoring that the Grim Fandango didn't even use mouse controls, or that EMI didn't either. BUT (and here's where they have you) the controls could be set to EITHER camera-relative or character-relative (Grim-style). Still I put a lot of these complaints down to the lack of documentation with the game, I didn't even know there were keyboard controls until well after I'd arrived on Floatsom Island.
Is it only me or has anyone else also the impression that with the introduction of Monkey Island (or was it more the lack of point&click in Wallace&Gromit first) the forum somehow lost some of it's peaceful more relaxed spirit?
Sometimes it's getting rather harsh on both sides (fanboys vs. those who hate TOMI).
Is it only me or has anyone else also the impression that with the introduction of Monkey Island (or was it more the lack of point&click in Wallace&Gromit first) the forum somehow lost some of it's peaceful more relaxed spirit?
i also noticed that when strong bad was released. the more different ips telltale is using, the more different opinions come to the forums...thus more conflict.
the increase of new users here was really huge with tales, since it was probably the most anticipated adventure game since...well, the last monkey island.
in the end, the complainers will leave and the good guys will stay...like it was with strong bad.
in conclusion i'd like to give you the real argument why the controls in tales of monkey island "suck":
when i play a monkey island game i like to get in a "piraty" mood...or simply drunk. so, i fetch some rum or at least beer - i still don't know what the grog in monkey island is - and then i start drinking. of course i can't use the keyboard control to move guybrush, because, as a pirate, you can't just put your drink down, you have to hold it and constantly wave it around. also, i usually won't sit up straight anymore, so one hand on the mouse is the most control i get. naturally, the mouse control won't work either...it's hard enough to click on anything after a half gallon of rum, but making this hold-button-and-drag-action...no way.:D
p.s.: in germany grog is warm rum with a bit of water and maybe sugar or honey added. some also refer to tea with rum as grog.
p.p.s.: kids, alcohol is bad for you and doesn't get you good grades...
i also noticed that when strong bad was released. the more different ips telltale is using, the more different opinions come to the forums...thus more conflict.
the increase of new users here was really huge with tales, since it was probably the most anticipated adventure game since...well, the last monkey island.
in the end, the complainers will leave and the good guys will stay...like it was with strong bad.
in conclusion i'd like to give you the real argument why the controls in tales of monkey island "suck":
when i play a monkey island game i like to get in a "piraty" mood...or simply drunk. so, i fetch some rum or at least beer - i still don't know what the grog in monkey island is - and then i start drinking. of course i can't use the keyboard control to move guybrush, because, as a pirate, you can't just put your drink down, you have to hold it and constantly wave it around. also, i usually won't sit up straight anymore, so one hand on the mouse is the most control i get. naturally, the mouse control won't work either...it's hard enough to click on anything after a half gallon of rum, but making this hold-button-and-drag-action...no way.:D
p.s.: in germany grog is warm rum with a bit of water and maybe sugar or honey added. some also refer to tea with rum as grog.
p.p.s.: kids, alcohol is bad for you and doesn't get you good grades...
Hey! Now you could make Guybrush walk in circles, just like you do after having one cold one too many! You can't do that with point and click.
I would agree that some of his critique is rather direct and not specified enough. And I know why you implemented the current controls, i read most of the controls thread. However that still doesnt mean that people are forced to like the control scheme just because you've elaborated on why you did what you did. I guess "valid critique" is not interpreted the same way depending on whether you're a player or a developer.
Lets also remember that its far from certain that everyone who has something negative to say about the game...have even read some of the looong threads where stuff like the controls have been debated. So you could really just have guided the threadstarter towards those threads instead of going all "this is a bad post !!" and that would have been it.
To express my own opinion in short:
- I didnt like the mouse-drag control system and Im not fond of having to play an adventure game with 2 hands (1 for mouse, 1 for keyboard movement).
- I thought the graphics were excellent, altho i wished it would be darker (more night-scenes) like in the first 2 games.
- I recognized and liked some of the humour from the old games. Missing more dialog options (longer dialogs with ppl with more funny remarks) tho and Guybrush actually saying what i choose.
So in general i AM satisfied with the game - just so you dont all think im a TOMI or Telltale hater
My biggest beef is the lack of documentation for the game. It's simple: customers will have a greater experience if they've got the documentation. It's the first, and most important, rule of physics!
I'm pleased that SHIFT works for run, but I'm not pleased that it isn't documented! I wish I had known from the get-go!
My biggest beef is the lack of documentation for the game. It's simple: customers will have a greater experience if they've got the documentation. It's the first, and most important, rule of physics!
I'm pleased that SHIFT works for run, but I'm not pleased that it isn't documented! I wish I had known from the get-go!
You can also right click while you are walking with the left mouse button. I found that out on the forum. It would have been nice to see that in a manual, but actually I also saw all the key commands listed somewhere in the game itself, on one of the settings/help menu screens I think...
I highly recommend you to play the previous Monkey Island games. They may be old, but they are some of the hottest games that adventure game players everywhere would definitely refer back to. Even if you are not all that interested in it, you should at least give a look at it to know what is the deal all about (like how people watch Star Wars to know why some fans even bother with the crappy storyline, crappy dialogue and a failed mega weapon design - self-destruct mechanism in Death Star).
I recall Monkey Island being on the fringes of my awareness as a young boy, but the only Lucas Arts adventure game I remember playing was Sam & Max. Since we started working on ToMI and I've caught bits of the style and humor, I've really wanted to sit down and play through the originals. Things have been crazy though, and I find it hard to justify playing single player games anymore since it sort of leaves my wife completely bored.
I would agree that some of his critique is rather direct and not specified enough. And I know why you implemented the current controls, i read most of the controls thread. However that still doesnt mean that people are forced to like the control scheme just because you've elaborated on why you did what you did. I guess "valid critique" is not interpreted the same way depending on whether you're a player or a developer.
Perhaps. I'm probably just having trouble explaining this in a not-terrible way. From my perspective (with the information I possess), the suggestion that we use point-and-click instead of direct control is akin to asking McDonald's to stop selling hamburgers and start focusing on hot dogs to accommodate my tastes. Liking hot dogs more than hamburgers is definitely a valid opinion. And there are probably a lot of people that like hot dogs more than hamburgers. But no matter how much the hot dog lovers want McDonald's to change, they won't. Not because McDonald's hates them, but because McDonald's sells a lot of hamburgers and switching over to hot dogs would be a not insignificant change.
That's what it looks like from my perspective, if that helps. From the user perspective (guy writing the hot dog letter to McDonald's) in this situation, the only possible outcomes are to feel totally ignored that McDonald's doesn't respond, or to become enraged that McDonald's did not seriously consider his hot dog suggestion.
I'm not a PR person, I'm a programmer. I come here and I try to be honest with you folks even if it's not what you want to hear because I remember what it was like to hang around in video game forums waiting for devs to respond with something more meaningful than "Thank you for your suggestion, have a nice day."
Lets also remember that its far from certain that everyone who has something negative to say about the game...have even read some of the looong threads where stuff like the controls have been debated. So you could really just have guided the threadstarter towards those threads instead of going all "this is a bad post !!" and that would have been it.
The bad post picture was a joke, because I'm tired of responding seriously on this subject.
Perhaps. I'm probably just having trouble explaining this in a not-terrible way. From my perspective (with the information I possess), the suggestion that we use point-and-click instead of direct control is akin to asking McDonald's to stop selling hamburgers and start focusing on hot dogs to accommodate my tastes.
It's more like MacDonalds starting to sell hotdogs and people wanting them to bring the burgers back
Anyway, I'm very happy with TOMI because of the mouse dragging controls you implemented. Will you keep these in future games? I think they're great, really saves the game for me.
I really hope you'll keep that control system in all your future games (as an option, at least).
I personally used the keyboard controls and didn't have a problem with them. Wasn't a big fan of the mouse controls but it didn't bother me as I could just use the keyboard controls.
Anyway, I'm very happy with TOMI because of the mouse dragging controls you implemented. Will you keep these in future games? I think they're great, really saves the game for me.
I really hope you'll keep that control system in all your future games (as an option, at least).
My understanding is that keyboard, mouse, and joystick direct control should be supported for our future titles.
Perhaps. I'm probably just having trouble explaining this in a not-terrible way. From my perspective (with the information I possess), the suggestion that we use point-and-click instead of direct control is akin to asking McDonald's to stop selling hamburgers and start focusing on hot dogs to accommodate my tastes.
But you did have point-and-click in the Sam & Max games, didnt you? To follow your example, McDonalds would have introduced hot dogs earlier and people liked those hot dogs...and then McDonalds decided to dump the hot dogs again.
I'm not a PR person, I'm a programmer. I come here and I try to be honest with you folks even if it's not what you want to hear because I remember what it was like to hang around in video game forums waiting for devs to respond with something more meaningful than "Thank you for your suggestion, have a nice day."
And believe me, its truly appreciated that you spend so much time answering questions and participating in debates here in the forums. Im a programmer myself (altho web-programmer) and your direct honesty is greatly appreciated.
The bad post picture was a joke, because I'm tired of responding seriously on this subject.
I really understand what its like to hear/read the same things over and over again - and eventho we all appreciate getting as much info from the developers as possible, sometimes silence is golden.
What got ME a bit annoyed was not only your "bad post" but also the fact that many forum-members started bashing the original poster for having a different opinion. Its all really about opinions in forums like this and ppl should respect other people. Unfortunately theres always some "bad people" who cant help themselves.
What got ME a bit annoyed was not only your "bad post" but also the fact that many forum-members started bashing the original poster for having a different opinion. Its all really about opinions in forums like this and ppl should respect other people. Unfortunately theres always some "bad people" who cant help themselves.
I wouldn't play this game if it was for free!
goodbye Monkey Island *wipes a tear*
Op had some good opinions , wether we agree or not , but bashing it is just bad form, actually its not even a good insult which makes it even worse :P. and that is why he got the reactions and the trolls just popped out.( thats what happens when you insult someone in a bad way , trolls keep popping out )
I would agree that some of his critique is rather direct and not specified enough. ... I guess "valid critique" is not interpreted the same way depending on whether you're a player or a developer.
If I tell an artist I don't like his painting because it has too much purple, that is not a critique it is my opinion. If I tell him I don't like his painting because his overuse of purple has made the desert sunset scene seem to have more shadows then would be possible under the conditions and gives the scene a somber, forbidding sense as opposed to the joyful, restful quality he was going for, that is a critique. A critique requires that you not just say "I liked this" or "I didn't like this" but that you explain why or why not you like something.
Lets also remember that its far from certain that everyone who has something negative to say about the game...have even read some of the looong threads where stuff like the controls have been debated. So you could really just have guided the threadstarter towards those threads instead of going all "this is a bad post !!" and that would have been it.
That was a joke, which I found funny; an attempt to lighten up what looked like becoming a flame war. While I do expect the TTG staff to be respectful and considered in their responses, I also think they have just as much of a right to stating their opinion as any poster. Pulling in a paycheck shouldn't take away from your right to have an opinion.
But you did have point-and-click in the Sam & Max games, didnt you? To follow your example, McDonalds would have introduced hot dogs earlier and people liked those hot dogs...and then McDonalds decided to dump the hot dogs again.
Yes. Point-and-click was part of previous Sam & Max games, but it is unlikely to reappear in future ones. As a company, Telltale has been trying to get away from point-and-click / static cameras since before I was hired, and only recently have we had the resources to be able to implement something like direct control. It's a "this is the kind of game we want to make" decision.
That said, there are still a lot of companies out there making great old-school point-and-click stuff. I think there's more than enough room for us all to exist comfortably together with a significant (though not total) overlap of fans.
I shall agree with Lena here, there is a correct way to get your opinion heard, and it requires an amount of tact and explanation. Putting someone (fans, a representative, a company, anything) on the defensive about the issue does little to solve the problem.
I understand Posts Of Passion just as well as anyone else, but hey. Let's cool it. The comments have been noted, as you can tell programmers and devs are keeping aware of the forums and opinions therein. That's a pretty good deal, yeah?
It's more like MacDonalds starting to sell hotdogs and people wanting them to bring the burgers back
Actually it's more like MacDonalds always putting Heinz ketchup on their burgers, and then suddenly turning around switching to Kraft - and people complaining about the fact that Heinz ketchup is the only way to go about this, because, it's been like that for twenty years.
Well, it's not quite like that, since the current control scheme does alter the look&feel of your typical adventure game in a fundamental way - you don't order a character to move, you move him yourself. But what happens even with professional revieweres sometimes is that people have brainwashed themselves long enough to think a more "passive" interface is the main and only course to go - just cause. That said, I sympathize with anyone who really can't get his/her heads around using anything else for gaming than a mouse. And those who don't use this tired debate as a springboard for an even more tired (and absurd) campaign for point&click™ controls.
Well I actually liked the click and drag controls however I really disliked the interface it uses.
So a quick question for Yare or one of the other programmers: Would it be possible for you to provide an option to remove the circle and arrow (heck we know which way he's facing and turning towards as thats the direction Guybrush is facing)?
I would occasionally find that the gui would break the spell of immersion and ruin the beatiful depth of field/ camera angles. It just seemed so out of place with the minimalistic interface and well chosen camera angles. Otherwise I loved it!
Would it be possible for you to provide an option to remove the circle and arrow (heck we know which way he's facing and turning towards as thats the direction Guybrush is facing)?
I implemented this and several other options related to the drag+move system, but at the time the game shipped there was not a UI to hook it up to. Jake and I will hopefully have something working soon.
Comments
I have that effect!
That doesnt change the fact that many people still dont like the controls you came up with and thats why they're airing their opinion on it here on the debate forums. You know...debate doesnt mean people MUST agree with everything you do.
To be honest you seem to be in defensive-mode completely ignoring valid critique and acting all mighty like you can do no wrong. Sorry but thats just my impression. I would have had much more respect for a simple "ok fair enough, you have the right to different opinions and we respect that - we hear your critique".
Calling every post with criticism for "complaining" is too easy. It looks like someone (read: many, it seems) cant handle that people have something negative to say about their precious Monkey Island, it seems. Read Qwazin's post..it hit the nail right on the spot IMO.
q.e.d.
Read the other threads, this has all been discussed before. The control change was necessary to accommodate the camera framing and cinematography. Point and click doesn't work if there's a single area where you can't see the area you want to click.
The fallacy here is that you believe the critique to be valid. "Hey guys the controls are bad use point and click instead" is not a reasonable critique, it is a pointless one as has been discussed to death in many other threads. From my understanding of the direction we're going, you're unlikely to see point-and-click in ToMI or any future Telltale products.
A valid critique would be "I don't think cinematic cameras are worth the loss of point-and-click, you should rethink your cinematography direction for future titles."
When a vocal, extreme minority harps on the same thing again and again even after being told why it was done that way and that it isn't going to change, it's definitely complaining. Pretty much by definition.
I've never played a Monkey Island game, and the controls I implemented were the correct solution for our camera design. There's literally nothing to be defensive about, because nobody in this thread is going on an informed offense.
I'm just going to stop trying to explain the issue since it seems nothing I say will satisfy the handful of people who want the game to be 2D, point-and-click, with a verb coin.
I'm just going to check out of these discussions and link the Mixnmojo article on ToMI's control scheme from now on: http://www.mixnmojo.com/features/read.php?article=controlfreaks
Might as well. Good article and there are a lot of people who you just can't please. They'll adapt over time much like people who hated MI3's art style accepted it later. The extremely small market that won't can take their business elsewhere - the controls are NOT that bad. I personally really like TOMI's controls.
I highly recommend you to play the previous Monkey Island games. They may be old, but they are some of the hottest games that adventure game players everywhere would definitely refer back to. Even if you are not all that interested in it, you should at least give a look at it to know what is the deal all about (like how people watch Star Wars to know why some fans even bother with the crappy storyline, crappy dialogue and a failed mega weapon design - self-destruct mechanism in Death Star).
You know I was actually more tempted to paraphrase the theory of change implementation:
1 - Change announced; people voice strongly against the change, quoting that any change will only be make the process more inferior
2 - Change implemented; people polarised - some see potential and embraces it, in spite of teething problems; some are vehemently against the implementation, quoting a lack of freedom and their rights not respected
3 - Change gaining acceptance; more people embrace the change and see it as a norm.
You know, I personally did not like the whole idea of using a mouse when it first came out on a PC too. But what the heck!
Now, I can't even surf properly without my Razer Lachesis.
Wasn't there a text parser segment in one of the Sam&Max episode?
I do wonder if the angles are worth it, though. While the walk up to De Singe's lab is nice, but I'd expect that to be one of MANY undoable angles should the control scheme be changing purely to accommodate them.
I'm not saying it isn't a benefit, surely. But if you ARE going to trade the ease of point and click for direct control, I'd like to see the benefits strongly in the way every stage is built. As it stands, a lot of levels still feel like stages in a school play.
And yeah, I do realize that the level design itself isn't your job at all.
However Telltale could remedy this by making TOMI compatible with the VirtualBoy from Nintendo.
It's about time someone suggested this, I didn't want to be the first to complain.
Sometimes it's getting rather harsh on both sides (fanboys vs. those who hate TOMI).
There were other ways to accommodate p&c - to simply say it's impossible ignores the fact that pointing and clicking on items moves guybrush to them, but pointing and clicking on paths does nothing!
Of course, you could point out that people are ignoring that the Grim Fandango didn't even use mouse controls, or that EMI didn't either. BUT (and here's where they have you) the controls could be set to EITHER camera-relative or character-relative (Grim-style). Still I put a lot of these complaints down to the lack of documentation with the game, I didn't even know there were keyboard controls until well after I'd arrived on Floatsom Island.
Luckily it's mostly concentrated in this forum.
i also noticed that when strong bad was released. the more different ips telltale is using, the more different opinions come to the forums...thus more conflict.
the increase of new users here was really huge with tales, since it was probably the most anticipated adventure game since...well, the last monkey island.
in the end, the complainers will leave and the good guys will stay...like it was with strong bad.
in conclusion i'd like to give you the real argument why the controls in tales of monkey island "suck":
when i play a monkey island game i like to get in a "piraty" mood...or simply drunk. so, i fetch some rum or at least beer - i still don't know what the grog in monkey island is - and then i start drinking. of course i can't use the keyboard control to move guybrush, because, as a pirate, you can't just put your drink down, you have to hold it and constantly wave it around. also, i usually won't sit up straight anymore, so one hand on the mouse is the most control i get. naturally, the mouse control won't work either...it's hard enough to click on anything after a half gallon of rum, but making this hold-button-and-drag-action...no way.:D
p.s.: in germany grog is warm rum with a bit of water and maybe sugar or honey added. some also refer to tea with rum as grog.
p.p.s.: kids, alcohol is bad for you and doesn't get you good grades...
Hey! Now you could make Guybrush walk in circles, just like you do after having one cold one too many! You can't do that with point and click.
Lets also remember that its far from certain that everyone who has something negative to say about the game...have even read some of the looong threads where stuff like the controls have been debated. So you could really just have guided the threadstarter towards those threads instead of going all "this is a bad post !!" and that would have been it.
To express my own opinion in short:
- I didnt like the mouse-drag control system and Im not fond of having to play an adventure game with 2 hands (1 for mouse, 1 for keyboard movement).
- I thought the graphics were excellent, altho i wished it would be darker (more night-scenes) like in the first 2 games.
- I recognized and liked some of the humour from the old games. Missing more dialog options (longer dialogs with ppl with more funny remarks) tho and Guybrush actually saying what i choose.
So in general i AM satisfied with the game - just so you dont all think im a TOMI or Telltale hater
I'm pleased that SHIFT works for run, but I'm not pleased that it isn't documented! I wish I had known from the get-go!
You can also right click while you are walking with the left mouse button. I found that out on the forum. It would have been nice to see that in a manual, but actually I also saw all the key commands listed somewhere in the game itself, on one of the settings/help menu screens I think...
Yeah, the safe puzzle drove me crazy!
I recall Monkey Island being on the fringes of my awareness as a young boy, but the only Lucas Arts adventure game I remember playing was Sam & Max. Since we started working on ToMI and I've caught bits of the style and humor, I've really wanted to sit down and play through the originals. Things have been crazy though, and I find it hard to justify playing single player games anymore since it sort of leaves my wife completely bored.
One of these days, though!
Perhaps. I'm probably just having trouble explaining this in a not-terrible way. From my perspective (with the information I possess), the suggestion that we use point-and-click instead of direct control is akin to asking McDonald's to stop selling hamburgers and start focusing on hot dogs to accommodate my tastes. Liking hot dogs more than hamburgers is definitely a valid opinion. And there are probably a lot of people that like hot dogs more than hamburgers. But no matter how much the hot dog lovers want McDonald's to change, they won't. Not because McDonald's hates them, but because McDonald's sells a lot of hamburgers and switching over to hot dogs would be a not insignificant change.
That's what it looks like from my perspective, if that helps. From the user perspective (guy writing the hot dog letter to McDonald's) in this situation, the only possible outcomes are to feel totally ignored that McDonald's doesn't respond, or to become enraged that McDonald's did not seriously consider his hot dog suggestion.
I'm not a PR person, I'm a programmer. I come here and I try to be honest with you folks even if it's not what you want to hear because I remember what it was like to hang around in video game forums waiting for devs to respond with something more meaningful than "Thank you for your suggestion, have a nice day."
The bad post picture was a joke, because I'm tired of responding seriously on this subject.
Anyway, I'm very happy with TOMI because of the mouse dragging controls you implemented. Will you keep these in future games? I think they're great, really saves the game for me.
I really hope you'll keep that control system in all your future games (as an option, at least).
My understanding is that keyboard, mouse, and joystick direct control should be supported for our future titles.
Just wanna say that!
But you did have point-and-click in the Sam & Max games, didnt you? To follow your example, McDonalds would have introduced hot dogs earlier and people liked those hot dogs...and then McDonalds decided to dump the hot dogs again.
And believe me, its truly appreciated that you spend so much time answering questions and participating in debates here in the forums. Im a programmer myself (altho web-programmer) and your direct honesty is greatly appreciated.
I really understand what its like to hear/read the same things over and over again - and eventho we all appreciate getting as much info from the developers as possible, sometimes silence is golden.
What got ME a bit annoyed was not only your "bad post" but also the fact that many forum-members started bashing the original poster for having a different opinion. Its all really about opinions in forums like this and ppl should respect other people. Unfortunately theres always some "bad people" who cant help themselves.
Op had some good opinions , wether we agree or not , but bashing it is just bad form, actually its not even a good insult which makes it even worse :P. and that is why he got the reactions and the trolls just popped out.( thats what happens when you insult someone in a bad way , trolls keep popping out )
If I tell an artist I don't like his painting because it has too much purple, that is not a critique it is my opinion. If I tell him I don't like his painting because his overuse of purple has made the desert sunset scene seem to have more shadows then would be possible under the conditions and gives the scene a somber, forbidding sense as opposed to the joyful, restful quality he was going for, that is a critique. A critique requires that you not just say "I liked this" or "I didn't like this" but that you explain why or why not you like something.
That was a joke, which I found funny; an attempt to lighten up what looked like becoming a flame war. While I do expect the TTG staff to be respectful and considered in their responses, I also think they have just as much of a right to stating their opinion as any poster. Pulling in a paycheck shouldn't take away from your right to have an opinion.
Yes. Point-and-click was part of previous Sam & Max games, but it is unlikely to reappear in future ones. As a company, Telltale has been trying to get away from point-and-click / static cameras since before I was hired, and only recently have we had the resources to be able to implement something like direct control. It's a "this is the kind of game we want to make" decision.
That said, there are still a lot of companies out there making great old-school point-and-click stuff. I think there's more than enough room for us all to exist comfortably together with a significant (though not total) overlap of fans.
All this "hot dog" talk is making me hungry.
I understand Posts Of Passion just as well as anyone else, but hey. Let's cool it. The comments have been noted, as you can tell programmers and devs are keeping aware of the forums and opinions therein. That's a pretty good deal, yeah?
Actually it's more like MacDonalds always putting Heinz ketchup on their burgers, and then suddenly turning around switching to Kraft - and people complaining about the fact that Heinz ketchup is the only way to go about this, because, it's been like that for twenty years.
Well, it's not quite like that, since the current control scheme does alter the look&feel of your typical adventure game in a fundamental way - you don't order a character to move, you move him yourself. But what happens even with professional revieweres sometimes is that people have brainwashed themselves long enough to think a more "passive" interface is the main and only course to go - just cause. That said, I sympathize with anyone who really can't get his/her heads around using anything else for gaming than a mouse. And those who don't use this tired debate as a springboard for an even more tired (and absurd) campaign for point&click™ controls.
So a quick question for Yare or one of the other programmers: Would it be possible for you to provide an option to remove the circle and arrow (heck we know which way he's facing and turning towards as thats the direction Guybrush is facing)?
I would occasionally find that the gui would break the spell of immersion and ruin the beatiful depth of field/ camera angles. It just seemed so out of place with the minimalistic interface and well chosen camera angles. Otherwise I loved it!
Bravo!
I implemented this and several other options related to the drag+move system, but at the time the game shipped there was not a UI to hook it up to. Jake and I will hopefully have something working soon.