But of course its ok to have opposite view points. Otherwise, what would the purpose of a discussion be? Pandering to our own views? That's just masturbation and does nothing but stagnate topics. Not going to stop me from continuing to argue my views, though. This was an awesome and controversial episode. =P
Well, of course she cares about the baby. Because Clem cares about the baby. And Jane cares about Clem.
Your right. Perhaps between us it is time to agree to disagree. I think that her actions, while a bit extreme, were ultimately justifiable, at least more so than Kenny's endangering of those he wants to protect because of his refusal to listen when people oppose him. Its been a trait since season 1, only now amplified due to tragedy, and his inability to deal with it any more. I've had both Lee and Clementine put people out their misery for less, and Kenny wasn't going to stop until he entirely got his way, destructive as it was. Jane has seen this situation before, knew where it ultimately led, and contrived the situation so Kenny could finally get the death he's been seeking. If anything, she was sympathetic to his plight, and helped him in her own way.
You make your points. But they are hollow. But if you need to say this to yourself thats fine. I will simply disagree with you, and thats fi… morene. Because we all have our own opinions
But to counter this quickly, threat of walkers is constant, generally yes, but you aren't constantly in danger from them, with protection and them being absent, this time they were right there with you in the snowstorm. Thats not just the constant threat thats out there, thats immediate threat.
And if she wanted to make a plan, do it without the threat of walkers, go somewhere safe, and then do your "i lost the baby" bit. The group stuck with Kenny throughout this whole episode, you can keep up with Kenny a little while longer if need be.
Would Jane even care if the baby got eaten? She wondered what Rebecca would do with it after it was born, clearly showing what she is thinking, that the baby is a threat. Myeah i rather not tag along with a methodical su… [view original content]
Arvo was bad long before he even met Kenny. He lied to Clem about the medicine being for his sister, set up the ambush on Clem's group, and got Luke killed.
Incorrect. Everyone knew about Lilly being "emotionally unstable" after the loss of her father. Arvo on the other hand was repeatedly beaten… more and abused by Kenny which made him do this. I hate Arvo as much as everyone else due to him shooting Clem, but if Kenny didn't do the things he did he may of not stolen supplies with that useless junkie and Mike.
Arvo was bad long before he even met Kenny. He lied to Clem about the medicine being for his sister, set up the ambush on Clem's group, and got Luke killed.
Well, better be with a manipulative bitch than a crazy Mustache-Berserker who beats up and murders people even if he doesn't know whether they are guilty or not.
He beat up Arvo because he thought he lied. Did he lie? No. He (tried to) murder Jane, did he listen to her? No. Would he have not (tried to) murder her if Jane would really have lost the Baby in an Accident while escaping Walkers? No, he wouldn't, he would have done the same. He didn't know Jane was messing with him, she did told him, in the only few seconds he gave her, that it was an accident, and still Kenny didn't even stop for a minute to listen to Jane. Would you really like to be with a man that would kill you at the slightest threat to those he loves?
I can't say I wouldn't try something similar in their position. If Kenny was able to react rationally and patiently, then the situation would have been harmless. Instead, he flipped out. You may say that she was in the wrong for provoking him, but what if the situation was real? Look at where they are. They are in the middle of a blizzard while being surrounded by walkers, and they have one day's worth of food for the baby (then again, the endings crap on that line) and an empty tank of gas for their car. It's very possible that AJ would've met his end there. Do they need a guy who would kill the person responsible? Kenny's devotion to his loved ones was a double edged sword. It made him a loyal friend and a fierce protector, but it also made him blind sometimes. I would want to know how he would handle it before moving on with him in the conditions that they faced. How harmful the test is depends on the person being tested's reaction. That's how I saw it. Kenny was the aggressor in this situation even though Jane was the instigator. Both of their flaws were laid out in front of us. The writers let us decide which was the lesser of two evils, or if those evils were equal.
Kenny forced the situation himself by dragging the baby along with him into the snowstorm to chase after an unsure bet that he somehow contrived was more important than getting the baby the actual care it needed as fast as possible. This forced Jane into a situation where she wants to save the baby for Clem's sake, and also get Clem to stop apologizing for Kenny's outrageous behavior.
It was never her intention for him to die. Death was merely an acceptable outcome if he continued to not listen. She was trying to use the tragedy to shock him to his senses because arguing wasn't accomplishing anything, and dragging this baby further along with them was only going to get it killed just as sure as her leaving it alone for a few minutes could have. When he instead decided that indirect involvement equated death, she of course defended herself from his attacks, until Clem (and the player) finally got her choice, because she once again failed to scream him back into reality.
I like both characters. Kenny is a great tragic character, and his death scene after you end him is perfect. He admitted he was probably merely seeking his own death (probably why he jumped after Ben in season 1, fully expecting to not make it out) and was glad Clem did it before he lost himself completely and caused even more harm.
Jane knew what she was talking about all along, even when she confessed her ruse, its hard to be angry with her when she contrived Kenny the release he had been looking for, and did what she did because of genuinely caring about Clem. Her actions are no where near as monstrous as what Kenny had proved capable of when he was angry , and when all is said and done, justifiable in the end.
They both have their roles to play, they both have their charms, and they both have their tragedies. I just dislike when people bend over backwards to defend Kenny's actions when nothing he does is defensible, and actually harmful to the group. I dislike when people demonize Jane because of a handful of actions that are easy to follow the thought patterns of. They seem to merely hate Jane because she stands in opposition to their precious psychopath.
Nice try Einstein
Hm, looks like I'm facing a master debater here, I better be careful.
I've seen it from Kenny fans themselve… mores who have admitted they hate Jane now because Kenny.........
And ? It doesn't take being a Kenny fan to hate Jane because she provoked the "either me or Kenny" situation which was 1) manipulating two characters including our protagonist into believing the baby was dead when he was not, and 2) basically forcing Clementine's hand into saving her.
I've seen many players who were neutral or even disliked Kenny and still dislike him, be extremely mad at Jane for creating this situation.
Believe it or not, there are lots of people who disliked Kenny and still didn't wanted him dead for no good reason.
Which was my point in the first place.
While your point was that one can only be mad at Jane for this if one is a hardcore Kenny fan and "lel when you disagree with Kenny it's worse than Holo… [view original content]
She didn't cause the death of his wife or son. And the objective facts are that Kenny was told it was an accident even if AJ WAS killed. He didn't handle it rationally. He instead tried to kill her for what was said to be an accident.
In the zombie apocalypse it is incredibly easy to kill a baby. They are small, vulnerable, need food, warmth, protection .. they draw walkers to you. If it froze to death or absolutely had to be ditched so one of them could live, then yes, the person with the baby should do that.
There's nothing wrong with calling a baby's death a mistake in these circumstances.
I honestly couldn't give a crap about Mike and Bonnie considering they left with Arvo AFTER HE SHOT Clementine. But yeah they might have been persuaded by Kenny's constant nagging on Arvo. I just find it stupid that the rest of the group someone thought that Arvo was just a little innocent boy and ganged up on Kenny.
Calling him a redneck or hillbilly is in no way, shape, or form the same as calling a female character a "bitch" because she does something someone doesn't like. I'm not saying calling Kenny those things is right, but it happens way less, and I, personally, have never seen him being called it.
If the girls had been guys, nobody would be pissing on them like they do now because they're "bitches".
Calling him a redneck or hillbilly is in no way, shape, or form the same as calling a female character a "bitch"
Such a blatant display of double standards, it's... It's dumbfounding.
If the girls had been guys, nobody would be pissing on them like they do now because they're "bitches".
From what alternative universe or tumblr website are you ? Are you really saying male characters who display behaviours that players don't like get a free pass, or are treated better ? We obviously don't call a male a "bitch", but there is a whole range of insults commonly used by players and that you can find all over the forum : "bastard", "asshole", "piece of shit", etc, etc...
Or is your point that it's worse to use derogatory terms towards female characters than towards male characters ?
(I'm warning you, if you're going to tell me to "check my privilege" or anything like that I will have to burst in laughter)
Calling him a redneck or hillbilly is in no way, shape, or form the same as calling a female character a "bitch" because she does something … moresomeone doesn't like. I'm not saying calling Kenny those things is right, but it happens way less, and I, personally, have never seen him being called it.
If the girls had been guys, nobody would be pissing on them like they do now because they're "bitches".
Double standards? I believe you missed the part where I still said it's terrible to call Kenny either of those things.
And yes, I am. Female characters are generally treated terribly, no matter what. The girl can be identical in every way to a guy character in terms of personality and I swear you'd get "she's a bitch" and "he's the best!". Because I've heard it too much, seen it too much, and I'm just tired of it.
But we're not going to come to an agreement, so I'll stop it here. Derogatory terms towards any character are terrible, and I'm no saint, I use them too (but mostly just to nameless minions and etc).
And, hell naw, man, I ain't gonna tell you to "check your privilege". I hate that shit.
Calling him a redneck or hillbilly is in no way, shape, or form the same as calling a female character a "bitch"
Such a blatant disp… morelay of double standards, it's... It's dumbfounding.
If the girls had been guys, nobody would be pissing on them like they do now because they're "bitches".
From what alternative universe or tumblr website are you ? Are you really saying male characters who display behaviours that players don't like get a free pass, or are treated better ? We obviously don't call a male a "bitch", but there is a whole range of insults commonly used by players and that you can find all over the forum : "bastard", "asshole", "piece of shit", etc, etc...
Or is your point that it's worse to use derogatory terms towards female characters than towards male characters ?
(I'm warning you, if you're going to tell me to "check my privilege" or anything like that I will have to burst in laughter)
Double standards? I believe you missed the part where I still said it's terrible to call Kenny either of those things.
And yes, I am. Fem… moreale characters are generally treated terribly, no matter what. The girl can be identical in every way to a guy character in terms of personality and I swear you'd get "she's a bitch" and "he's the best!". Because I've heard it too much, seen it too much, and I'm just tired of it.
But we're not going to come to an agreement, so I'll stop it here. Derogatory terms towards any character are terrible, and I'm no saint, I use them too (but mostly just to nameless minions and etc).
And, hell naw, man, I ain't gonna tell you to "check your privilege". I hate that shit.
When Ben abandoned Clem to the walkers, was Lee all lightness and understanding or did he say that if Ben ever abandoned Clem again that Lee would kill him?
If Clem had died from the walkers in that incident would Lee have shot him? Doing it wouldn't have been "right", but it's certainly understandable.
Another thing to note is that Jane is the kind of person that abandons people. It's perfectly in character for her to get rid of a baby that she doesn't have any real emotional attachment too and she showed 0% regret for having done so when Kenny confronted her, which would infuriate anyone. Normally, she would have ditched Clem and Kenny, but she didn't because she started getting emotionally attached to Clem. Which led her to start taking extreme measures to get Clem away from Kenny.
Think AJ=Clem and understand why this was a lousy "test". There's no good answers here.
I'd really love if those that say Kenny was right to image the following: You are Jane, but unlike what happened, you really lost the Baby. … moreWhile trying to get away from Walkers, you tripped over a stone. Remember there was a storm and the sight was extremely low. So you fall down and the Baby fell out of your hands. You are out of your senses for a second. You open your Eyes, try to grab the Baby, and before you do, a walker comes and grabs the Baby before you do. You do your best to stand up as fast as possible, but you realize it's too late, and the walker... you know. You run away to a house and you see Clem and Kenny. You go into the house, still a little weak from the last few Minutes. Kenny and Clem ask what happened. You are out of words for a few seconds, but you get a hold of yourself. But before you can say something, a enraged and extremely strong Kenny attacks you with all his might. You fight with your knife until there is a sho… [view original content]
That is not what I said at all. Do you think Kenny would have believed her if she revealed the truth? Why? Kenny sure didn't believe when Jane said AJ died as the result of an accident. He flat out accuses her of killing AJ with absolutely no evidence. We know he never saw a body because there wasn't one. Claiming AJ is still alive is going to convince Kenny? You do realize his own wife couldn't get him to clam the fuck down and play nice with others even before he lost everything. right? What chance does Jane have when he's in Kenny mode?
She didn't try to kill him until after he viciously attacked her. She even tried to avoid a fight by putting her knife away and telling him to stay back. He instigated a fight he shouldn't have. Even if AJ did get killed in the blizzard, Kenny was the one in the wrong because he had no basis for accusing her and flying off the hook like that. Lilly much?
The only thing Jane is guilty of in my book is over-complicating the matter. I would have jumped at the chance to put a bullet in him even without the justification of defending Jane. His behavior this entire season was inexcusable.
All you're saying is that Jane assumed he wouldn't believe it, so she tried to kill him instead, specifically saying it was time to put him out of his misery if you try to stop her specifically. She's still a bitch, no matter how you see it.
Comments
But of course its ok to have opposite view points. Otherwise, what would the purpose of a discussion be? Pandering to our own views? That's just masturbation and does nothing but stagnate topics. Not going to stop me from continuing to argue my views, though. This was an awesome and controversial episode. =P
Well, of course she cares about the baby. Because Clem cares about the baby. And Jane cares about Clem.
Your right. Perhaps between us it is time to agree to disagree. I think that her actions, while a bit extreme, were ultimately justifiable, at least more so than Kenny's endangering of those he wants to protect because of his refusal to listen when people oppose him. Its been a trait since season 1, only now amplified due to tragedy, and his inability to deal with it any more. I've had both Lee and Clementine put people out their misery for less, and Kenny wasn't going to stop until he entirely got his way, destructive as it was. Jane has seen this situation before, knew where it ultimately led, and contrived the situation so Kenny could finally get the death he's been seeking. If anything, she was sympathetic to his plight, and helped him in her own way.
Arvo was bad long before he even met Kenny. He lied to Clem about the medicine being for his sister, set up the ambush on Clem's group, and got Luke killed.
Jane defended Arvo after they got their "food".
Yes, I agree, but the useless junkie and Mike wouldn't have left with Arvo if Kenny didn't beat the crap out of him.
Yeah, because it wasn't necessary to treat him like that. It served no purpose other than Kenny venting off. Doesn't mean she liked him.
Well, better be with a manipulative bitch than a crazy Mustache-Berserker who beats up and murders people even if he doesn't know whether they are guilty or not.
He beat up Arvo because he thought he lied. Did he lie? No. He (tried to) murder Jane, did he listen to her? No. Would he have not (tried to) murder her if Jane would really have lost the Baby in an Accident while escaping Walkers? No, he wouldn't, he would have done the same. He didn't know Jane was messing with him, she did told him, in the only few seconds he gave her, that it was an accident, and still Kenny didn't even stop for a minute to listen to Jane. Would you really like to be with a man that would kill you at the slightest threat to those he loves?
I can't say I wouldn't try something similar in their position. If Kenny was able to react rationally and patiently, then the situation would have been harmless. Instead, he flipped out. You may say that she was in the wrong for provoking him, but what if the situation was real? Look at where they are. They are in the middle of a blizzard while being surrounded by walkers, and they have one day's worth of food for the baby (then again, the endings crap on that line) and an empty tank of gas for their car. It's very possible that AJ would've met his end there. Do they need a guy who would kill the person responsible? Kenny's devotion to his loved ones was a double edged sword. It made him a loyal friend and a fierce protector, but it also made him blind sometimes. I would want to know how he would handle it before moving on with him in the conditions that they faced. How harmful the test is depends on the person being tested's reaction. That's how I saw it. Kenny was the aggressor in this situation even though Jane was the instigator. Both of their flaws were laid out in front of us. The writers let us decide which was the lesser of two evils, or if those evils were equal.
No, I liked Jane. I liked Jane a lot. But I didn't have the guts to shoot Kenny either. The timer ran out on me.
There wasn't a right choice to me.
Kenny forced the situation himself by dragging the baby along with him into the snowstorm to chase after an unsure bet that he somehow contrived was more important than getting the baby the actual care it needed as fast as possible. This forced Jane into a situation where she wants to save the baby for Clem's sake, and also get Clem to stop apologizing for Kenny's outrageous behavior.
It was never her intention for him to die. Death was merely an acceptable outcome if he continued to not listen. She was trying to use the tragedy to shock him to his senses because arguing wasn't accomplishing anything, and dragging this baby further along with them was only going to get it killed just as sure as her leaving it alone for a few minutes could have. When he instead decided that indirect involvement equated death, she of course defended herself from his attacks, until Clem (and the player) finally got her choice, because she once again failed to scream him back into reality.
I like both characters. Kenny is a great tragic character, and his death scene after you end him is perfect. He admitted he was probably merely seeking his own death (probably why he jumped after Ben in season 1, fully expecting to not make it out) and was glad Clem did it before he lost himself completely and caused even more harm.
Jane knew what she was talking about all along, even when she confessed her ruse, its hard to be angry with her when she contrived Kenny the release he had been looking for, and did what she did because of genuinely caring about Clem. Her actions are no where near as monstrous as what Kenny had proved capable of when he was angry , and when all is said and done, justifiable in the end.
They both have their roles to play, they both have their charms, and they both have their tragedies. I just dislike when people bend over backwards to defend Kenny's actions when nothing he does is defensible, and actually harmful to the group. I dislike when people demonize Jane because of a handful of actions that are easy to follow the thought patterns of. They seem to merely hate Jane because she stands in opposition to their precious psychopath.
I think Alunkkar was referring to Ben, not Jane.
In the zombie apocalypse it is incredibly easy to kill a baby. They are small, vulnerable, need food, warmth, protection .. they draw walkers to you. If it froze to death or absolutely had to be ditched so one of them could live, then yes, the person with the baby should do that.
There's nothing wrong with calling a baby's death a mistake in these circumstances.
I honestly couldn't give a crap about Mike and Bonnie considering they left with Arvo AFTER HE SHOT Clementine. But yeah they might have been persuaded by Kenny's constant nagging on Arvo. I just find it stupid that the rest of the group someone thought that Arvo was just a little innocent boy and ganged up on Kenny.
kek he's kenny fanboy
Calling him a redneck or hillbilly is in no way, shape, or form the same as calling a female character a "bitch" because she does something someone doesn't like. I'm not saying calling Kenny those things is right, but it happens way less, and I, personally, have never seen him being called it.
If the girls had been guys, nobody would be pissing on them like they do now because they're "bitches".
I think she was going to grab the baby right after that, but Kenny just decided to attack her.
Such a blatant display of double standards, it's... It's dumbfounding.
From what alternative universe or tumblr website are you ? Are you really saying male characters who display behaviours that players don't like get a free pass, or are treated better ? We obviously don't call a male a "bitch", but there is a whole range of insults commonly used by players and that you can find all over the forum : "bastard", "asshole", "piece of shit", etc, etc...
Or is your point that it's worse to use derogatory terms towards female characters than towards male characters ?
(I'm warning you, if you're going to tell me to "check my privilege" or anything like that I will have to burst in laughter)
Double standards? I believe you missed the part where I still said it's terrible to call Kenny either of those things.
And yes, I am. Female characters are generally treated terribly, no matter what. The girl can be identical in every way to a guy character in terms of personality and I swear you'd get "she's a bitch" and "he's the best!". Because I've heard it too much, seen it too much, and I'm just tired of it.
But we're not going to come to an agreement, so I'll stop it here. Derogatory terms towards any character are terrible, and I'm no saint, I use them too (but mostly just to nameless minions and etc).
And, hell naw, man, I ain't gonna tell you to "check your privilege". I hate that shit.
I didn't miss the part where you said it's "in no way, shape, or form the same" though.
But
Obviously.
I call it quits too, but don't expect me to stop using that word towards video game characters whose (last time I checked) feelings can't be hurt.
See you on another thread for more interesting discussions, I suppose.
When Ben abandoned Clem to the walkers, was Lee all lightness and understanding or did he say that if Ben ever abandoned Clem again that Lee would kill him?
If Clem had died from the walkers in that incident would Lee have shot him? Doing it wouldn't have been "right", but it's certainly understandable.
Another thing to note is that Jane is the kind of person that abandons people. It's perfectly in character for her to get rid of a baby that she doesn't have any real emotional attachment too and she showed 0% regret for having done so when Kenny confronted her, which would infuriate anyone. Normally, she would have ditched Clem and Kenny, but she didn't because she started getting emotionally attached to Clem. Which led her to start taking extreme measures to get Clem away from Kenny.
Think AJ=Clem and understand why this was a lousy "test". There's no good answers here.
That is not what I said at all. Do you think Kenny would have believed her if she revealed the truth? Why? Kenny sure didn't believe when Jane said AJ died as the result of an accident. He flat out accuses her of killing AJ with absolutely no evidence. We know he never saw a body because there wasn't one. Claiming AJ is still alive is going to convince Kenny? You do realize his own wife couldn't get him to clam the fuck down and play nice with others even before he lost everything. right? What chance does Jane have when he's in Kenny mode?
She didn't try to kill him until after he viciously attacked her. She even tried to avoid a fight by putting her knife away and telling him to stay back. He instigated a fight he shouldn't have. Even if AJ did get killed in the blizzard, Kenny was the one in the wrong because he had no basis for accusing her and flying off the hook like that. Lilly much?
The only thing Jane is guilty of in my book is over-complicating the matter. I would have jumped at the chance to put a bullet in him even without the justification of defending Jane. His behavior this entire season was inexcusable.
yup i'm glad i found somebody thinks like me ^^