BUT I never think it's a good idea to bring him back like this. It gets feelings from the player for ONE character, but it makes the whole s… moretory sucks. It's a little bit like making a Mary Sue. Not exactly the same, but very similiar.
Wow, I don´t even...
I can´t believe what I just read.
Bringing Kenny back was not the bad idea, the bad idea was letting the writers of season 1 go. Those people could have handled the Cabin Group well, and every other issue that his supposedly the fault of Kenny´s return. The writers of season 2 just fucked up too much, and made some bad decisions. But bringing Kenny bad was not a bad decision, and it doesn´t ruin the story. Kenny surviving the alley is believable, as well as him surviving the warehouse. In the alley, there were windows on both sides. He could have broken one after he shot Ben, and escaped through it. We don´t know the layout of the warehouse, so that Kenny had ways to escape is perfectly believable. We could have used an explanation beyond 'Real lucky', yes, I admit that, but Kenny´s survival is not going to kill the suspension of disbelief. Tyresse survived for seven days in a walker infested gym and nobody gave shit to Kirman about it.
Besides, you can´t seriously be agreeing with the guy who compared Kenny to a Mary Sue. Everybody in season 2, and I mean everybody, is against Kenny one way or another. There an entire scene in Episode 3 devoted to Mike explaining why Kenny´s plan to escape Carver´s Camp is fucking stupid. There is the whole Bonnie and Mike Betrayal. There is Carlos pointing out that he is just going to get everybody killed for his 'truck escape plan'. There is the whole group whispering about Kenny´s temper right after he lost his wife instead of, you know, trying to help him. Hell, the first time he gets a thank you in the whole season (that is not for Clem) is when Bonnie thanks him for taking first watch in the campfire scene. And of course, Jane and her Carver 2.0 theory, but I think I won´t have to mention that too, right? You can´t have that bad of a memory right?
Besides, you can´t seriously be agreeing with the guy who compared Kenny to a Mary Sue. Everybody in season 2, and I mean everybody, is against Kenny one way or another. There an entire scene in Episode 3 devoted to Mike explaining why Kenny´s plan to escape Carver´s Camp is fucking stupid. There is the whole Bonnie and Mike Betrayal. There is Carlos pointing out that he is just going to get everybody killed for his 'truck escape plan'. There is the whole group whispering about Kenny´s temper right after he lost his wife instead of, you know, trying to help him. Hell, the first time he gets a thank you in the whole season (that is not for Clem) is when Bonnie thanks him for taking first watch in the campfire scene. And of course, Jane and her Carver 2.0 theory, but I think I won´t have to mention that too, right? You can´t have that bad of a memory right?
How does that make Kenny a Mary Sue, seriously? Explain.
Because this isnt about the characters this is about the writers. Every character against kenny is proved evil or bad in some bizzare way as I mentioned above or is slaughtered for little or no reason
Also kenny surviving in season 1 is a little ridiculous but I let that go as it is slightly possible, still the "i got lucky" thing was daft, also comparing tyreese who is likely one of the best fighters ever seen in the comics with a weapon with season 1 Kenny who dosnt even have a weapon has always been a ridiculous comparison for me
Flash news: He got a point angry Kenny fan.
How about... no.
Bringing Kenny back was not the bad idea, the bad idea was letting t… morehe writers of season 1 go. Those people could have handled the Cabin Group well, and every other issue that his supposedly the fault of Kenny´s return. The writers of season 2 just fucked up too much, and made some bad decisions. But bringing Kenny bad was not a bad decision, and it doesn´t ruin the story. Kenny surviving the alley is believable, as well as him surviving the warehouse. In the alley, there were windows on both sides. He could have broken one after he shot Ben, and escaped through it. We don´t know the layout of the warehouse, so that Kenny had ways to escape is perfectly believable. We could have used an explanation beyond 'Real lucky', yes, I admit that, but Kenny´s survival is not going to kill the suspension of disbelief. Tyresse survived for seven days in a walker infested gym and nobo… [view original content]
Because this isnt about the characters this is about the writers.
Look up what Mary Sue means, some time.
Every character against kenny is proved evil or bad
Arvo was already bad.
The Bonnie and Mike thing was simply bad writing.
s slaughtered for little or no reason
What?
also comparing tyreese who is likely one of the best fighters ever seen in the comics with a weapon with season 1 Kenny who dosnt even have a weapon has always been a ridiculous comparison for me
Tyreese is human, and he survived SEVEN DAYS in a walker infested gym. He should have died. There was no way he could have survived that. I don´t remember if Tyresse gives an explanation, but nothing he says can make his survival believable. He should have gotten tired, sleepy, hungry, have trouble to react on time and things like that but he survived in a walker infested gym like it was nothing to worry about.
As for, Kenny, he had a gun and at least one bullet, and a clear method of escape. I can believe that Kenny survived far more easily that Tyresse surviving just because he is a badass like that.
Besides, you can´t seriously be agreeing with the guy who compared Kenny to a Mary Sue. Everybody in season 2, and I mean everybody, is agai… morenst Kenny one way or another. There an entire scene in Episode 3 devoted to Mike explaining why Kenny´s plan to escape Carver´s Camp is fucking stupid. There is the whole Bonnie and Mike Betrayal. There is Carlos pointing out that he is just going to get everybody killed for his 'truck escape plan'. There is the whole group whispering about Kenny´s temper right after he lost his wife instead of, you know, trying to help him. Hell, the first time he gets a thank you in the whole season (that is not for Clem) is when Bonnie thanks him for taking first watch in the campfire scene. And of course, Jane and her Carver 2.0 theory, but I think I won´t have to mention that too, right? You can´t have that bad of a memory right?
How does that make Kenny a Mary Sue, seriously? Explain.
Because this isn… [view original content]
Actually Jane is the one who began the fight by calling Kenny as asshole and mocking his crushed eye. The whole "Nothing" insult was pretty bad, but the fight in the car was started by Jane.
I don't think Kenny coming back was even favoritism so much as desperation. The new cast wasn't working so they just dragged back the most popular season one character after Clem who wasn't explicitly dead. I was even genuinely happy to see Kenny at first even though I wasn't a big fan of him just because they did such a poor job with the new cast. I was like, "Kenny, thank God! These new people suck." And from there it probably just snowballed where it was easier to use Kenny then take the extra time and effort to build up the new cast enough where the audience would care to see them in the situations they stuck him in. Sad really.
Your observations on Kenny possibly being used in what may have been planned as other people's roles are interesting. Expanding on that, I we remove Kenny from the story or simply assume he had a much smaller role, not only can his roles at the end of Episode 2 and most of three be filled with other cast members, it actually fits a little a better.
Like Luke's whole out of nowhere unexplained and ultimately unimportant disappearance at the end of House of Divided. If Kenny wasn't in the episode, Luke would likely have been the one outside with the rifle shooting at Carver's people. Alvin being killed or not would probably carry a little more weight since Luke actually knows Alvin and the rest of the group and that would lead to a more heated argument with Rebecca in Ep3 than Kenny had with her. And it could have been Sarah instead of Sarita Carver takes hostage if Alvin dies.
And going on from there to In Harm's Way, Luke would have been in the group to suggest and encourage Clem to get the radio while Carlos could have been the one wanting to bring the herd to destroy Howe's. Carlos could have gotten a second beating while Sarah had to be restrained, like you suggested, and Carlos would have been the one to bash Carver's head in, which would give Luke and Sarah's foreshadowing about Carlos ("Never let anyone die on purpose" "Wouldn't do anything crazy or not nice.") some much needed payoff.
Going onto Amid the Ruins is gets more murky though, probably because whatever original plans had greatly changed by that point. But it could have likely been Sarah instead of Sarita getting bitten. She could have freaked out, screamed and gotten bitten and that could have lead into a conflict between Carlos and Clem later instead of Kenny. Carlos could call back to his initial warning for Clem to have stayed away from Sarah and lash out out her and the rest of the group worried Carlos will lose it before he can help Rebecca with the baby since he's the only doctor they know.
And if Sarah was suppose to die in Sarita's place, it could have been Nick in the trailer park (if he was still alive) who doesn't want to live. The comparison between Sarah and Jamie always felt tenuous to me. Sarah clearly doesn't deal well with horrible situations but nothing about her suggested she didn't want to live, she just has panic attacks that keep her from making good decisions. If she wanted to die should probably wouldn't have run off after Carlos died and just let the zombies kill her.
Nick on the other hand was clearly depressed and if you go with him at the end of EP1, he talks about giving up and how it's pointless to go on since everyone is going to die anyway. I could definitely see him in Sarah's place in the trailer, indifferently telling Luke and Clem to leave him behind while he's slouched in a corner, waiting for the end. The scene would carry a little more emotional weight with Luke/Nick instead of Luke/Sarah as well seeing how much Luke worries about Nick, and comparing Luke/Nick and Jane/Jamie seems a lot more relevant than with Clem/Sarah. It also could have created an interesting character dynamic between Luke and Jane, which would have made their sudden pairing seem less random.
This is a little off-topic, but I don't think Jane was originally meant to return in No Going Back either. Her sudden reappearance just undercuts her initial departure and it seems weird she's forced into conflict with Kenny when they were just doing that with Luke at the end of the previous episode. If Kenny did displace other people's roles it's possible it was Carlos that Luke was suppose to be in conflict with and he could have latched onto Rebecca's baby after losing his own child. The Carver comparison could have worked better to since the two men presumably had a history that could have been elaborated on during Ep3.
If you remove Kenny from the picture you can start to see where all the seemingly out of places pieces start to fit together. Still impossible to get a complete picture but it does shed some light on possibilities regarding aborted arcs and forgotten characters.
Agreed I was going to go futhur into rewrites but as you said by ep 4 this is kind of hard to continue as the writers had found their footing with the new approach there, I do think Jane was always meant to stick around, her leaving and coming back is integral to her charcater and also is a surprise due to molly last season
I don't think Kenny coming back was even favoritism so much as desperation. The new cast wasn't working so they just dragged back the most p… moreopular season one character after Clem who wasn't explicitly dead. I was even genuinely happy to see Kenny at first even though I wasn't a big fan of him just because they did such a poor job with the new cast. I was like, "Kenny, thank God! These new people suck." And from there it probably just snowballed where it was easier to use Kenny then take the extra time and effort to build up the new cast enough where the audience would care to see them in the situations they stuck him in. Sad really.
Your observations on Kenny possibly being used in what may have been planned as other people's roles are interesting. Expanding on that, I we remove Kenny from the story or simply assume he had a much smaller role, not only can his roles at the end of Episode 2 and most of three be filled with other cast member… [view original content]
I didn't expect Kenny to spill the beans when you first meet him, but at least maybe some kind of explanation in future episodes would've helped, but that never happens. Compared to Luke, Ben is HEAVILY developed, there's more interesting stuff going on with Ben then there is with Luke by a longshot, Doug also seemed to have a character arc if you save him by becoming more of a tough survivor rather than the geek we saw in episode 1, Carely gets more of a backstory, Lily gets more of a backstory, Larry gets some kind of backstory if you talk to Lily. The thing with Luke, the stuff going on with him in episode 5 was way too late and I would've liked if TT would've tried to give him more character stuff to do rather than just be the generic nice person, He's supposed to be one of the main characters, and If I don't get invested in his character at all, that's a problem. Why is it that it's harder to swallow? Because there was nothing there, that's really just personal interpretation for Kenny fans, Kenny did care about Clem, but never really had much emotional attachment to her, she's a kid, and she needed protecting, but he wasn't looking at her as his daughter as episode 5 implies, there's no build up to it and it's forced. Kenny never seemed like Clem's pal in season 1 at all, that's just your perspective talking.
How the hell is Mike developed? You barely get to know him in this season, he's just along for the ride, nothing more, he's there to be the … moregeneric nice guy until the contrived scenario where he betrays everyone. Bonnie is all over the place, and I'm not really invested in her character
They are as developed as basically any other secondary characters in the game (season one,-season two). We don't really know much about their past, but whatever.
I'm not sure why you're ignoring the Jane example. Again, Jane is proof that Telltale can make in depth characters/ developed characters with Kenny around.
Luke has the same problem in that his personal issues feel forced and he's kind of the generic nice guy for the player, even though I though his character could have gone somewhere interesting.
This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Kenny though.
What characters in either season have been more developed than L… [view original content]
I guess she didn't care about Luke as much as she did Kenny. Oh well. That's the story. Its not bad just because you wish it was different.
… more
Seriously, I really think people only dislike Kenny's presence because they are sick of him/ don't like him. There really aren't any other legitimate reasons.
Excellent Post. Everything you said made alot of sense to me and the Season could/would have in fact been alot better if it would have been like this. But there is one thing i have to disagree on with you. Kenny was always meant to return, it was not just a desperation move. Remember the scene from the a house divided trailer. Clem's infamous " I thought you were dead " words. Kenny was always supposed to be that person.
That being said, i am a big Kenny fan and i hate the way his character arc turned out to end. It would have been fine if he died during the events of Season 1. It would also have been fine if would have died during the events of Season 2, or if he survived the whole Season. But making him a determined character is unacceptable in my opinion. He is to important for that.
I don't think Kenny coming back was even favoritism so much as desperation. The new cast wasn't working so they just dragged back the most p… moreopular season one character after Clem who wasn't explicitly dead. I was even genuinely happy to see Kenny at first even though I wasn't a big fan of him just because they did such a poor job with the new cast. I was like, "Kenny, thank God! These new people suck." And from there it probably just snowballed where it was easier to use Kenny then take the extra time and effort to build up the new cast enough where the audience would care to see them in the situations they stuck him in. Sad really.
Your observations on Kenny possibly being used in what may have been planned as other people's roles are interesting. Expanding on that, I we remove Kenny from the story or simply assume he had a much smaller role, not only can his roles at the end of Episode 2 and most of three be filled with other cast member… [view original content]
Jesus, I'm not saying Kenny is a Mary Sue, I'm saying the way they build him in S2 is somehow have something in common with building a Mary Sue. They focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt.
And if you read what I posted before in this thread, you'll know that I don't hate it to bring Kenny back. I just hate it that they bring him back and use the character in this fucking way.
And I feel that some of Kenny's fans (not you) are really ridiculous.
Because this isnt about the characters this is about the writers.
Look up what Mary Sue means, some time.
Every character agai… morenst kenny is proved evil or bad
Arvo was already bad.
The Bonnie and Mike thing was simply bad writing.
s slaughtered for little or no reason
What?
also comparing tyreese who is likely one of the best fighters ever seen in the comics with a weapon with season 1 Kenny who dosnt even have a weapon has always been a ridiculous comparison for me
Tyreese is human, and he survived SEVEN DAYS in a walker infested gym. He should have died. There was no way he could have survived that. I don´t remember if Tyresse gives an explanation, but nothing he says can make his survival believable. He should have gotten tired, sleepy, hungry, have trouble to react on time and things like that but he survived in a walker infested gym like it was nothing to worry about.
As for, Kenny, … [view original content]
I do admit he was likely going to come back however just not for so much as he does. Also The end of ep 1 just seems abrupt and rushed with the way Pete dies so they could have easily stuck the line on the end to rush a comeback.
Kenny was likely going to come back eventually, but so soon and for so much of the season? Im not sure
But making him a determined character is unacceptable in my opinion. He is to important for that.
I agree with this to a point to, I really didnt want another season with him but all that this means is he'll likely just do someting heroic for 10 minutes and then die in a lame way rather than continue to see the downward spiral, it would be nice if they showed us the negatives of Jane and Kenny in season 3 rather than just a quick scene with each.
Contrary to what people think I wouldnt have minded if kenny had gone off the deepend and lived canon on all games as that would be a new point for him and this development could be explored next season (as multi seasonal characters I think need to be explored soon), as it is hes determinant and his character is back at the start again with a new family he'll do anything to protect (or dead)
Excellent Post. Everything you said made alot of sense to me and the Season could/would have in fact been alot better if it would have been … morelike this. But there is one thing i have to disagree on with you. Kenny was always meant to return, it was not just a desperation move. Remember the scene from the a house divided trailer. Clem's infamous " I thought you were dead " words. Kenny was always supposed to be that person.
That being said, i am a big Kenny fan and i hate the way his character arc turned out to end. It would have been fine if he died during the events of Season 1. It would also have been fine if would have died during the events of Season 2, or if he survived the whole Season. But making him a determined character is unacceptable in my opinion. He is to important for that.
Jesus, I'm not saying Kenny is a Mary Sue, I'm saying the way they build him in S2 is somehow have something in common with building a Mary Sue
That´s what I said that you compared Kenny to a Mary Sue, not that you said Kenny is a Mary Sue.
They focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt.
Why? The history is somehow hurt by Kenny, and not because of subpar writers who were incapable of handling the characters they had and shoved them into a miserable, after thought kind of death like Nick and Sarah, effectively wasting Pete´s death and Carlo´s death, the same writers who introduced a whole new group that did not amount to anything but a few cheap deaths and-of course- AJ?
I don´t get it.
Kenny is not the problem, is the writers.
And if you read what I posted before in this thread, you'll know that I don't hate it to bring Kenny back. I just hate it that they bring him back and use the character in this fucking way.
What fucking way, sir? Explain.
And I feel that some of Kenny's fans (not you) are really ridiculous.
Jesus, I'm not saying Kenny is a Mary Sue, I'm saying the way they build him in S2 is somehow have something in common with building a Mary … moreSue. They focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt.
And if you read what I posted before in this thread, you'll know that I don't hate it to bring Kenny back. I just hate it that they bring him back and use the character in this fucking way.
And I feel that some of Kenny's fans (not you) are really ridiculous.
And..... Kenny is a MAJOR character. He appeared in all episodes of Season 1 besides Lee and Clem.
At least Clem has someone in her group… more she remembers from season 1.
Wanna know why he got brought back?
Because of what happened to Omid and Christa.
Just running in to Kenny bugs me....2 years travling with christa a ride down a river and a 5 day walk then bam Kenny...I live 2 hours from my sisters and never just run into them..
I did choose the Wellington ending, because in this scenario Kenny won't die a certain death in Season3 - Episode1. He might die on his own eventually, the point is we can not know that. It was a satisfying ending for his story arc, he sacrificed himself for Clem and AJ, so they can live a somewhat " happy " live.
There is no way, Telltale gonna let Kenny and Jane survive very long in Season3. They are both determined characters now, not to mention the fact that Telltale has to develop 5 different endings/starts. He might die on his own eventually, the point is we can not know that. It was a satisfying ending for his story arc, he sacrificed himself for Clem and AJ, so they can live a " happy " live.
I do admit he was likely going to come back however just not for so much as he does. Also The end of ep 1 just seems abrupt and rushed with … morethe way Pete dies so they could have easily stuck the line on the end to rush a comeback.
Kenny was likely going to come back eventually, but so soon and for so much of the season? Im not sure
But making him a determined character is unacceptable in my opinion. He is to important for that.
I agree with this to a point to, I really didnt want another season with him but all that this means is he'll likely just do someting heroic for 10 minutes and then die in a lame way rather than continue to see the downward spiral, it would be nice if they showed us the negatives of Jane and Kenny in season 3 rather than just a quick scene with each.
Contrary to what people think I wouldnt have minded if kenny had gone off the deepend and lived canon on all games as that would be a new point for him … [view original content]
For the "Mary Sue" problem, what I want to say is the ways the writers building the characters have something in common. The common part is "they focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt".
And I said in P4 that at first I think bringing Kenny back a great idea. But then it turns out to be a disaster.
I realize that I fail to get my meaning clear to you. Here I'll try to get it clear.
If the writers are good, and they know how to go on developing Kenny's character well as in S1, or they know how to avoid sheding so much light on him that others won't get fully developed, it'll be good to bring Kenny back.
If the writers are dumb (as they are in S2), then not bringing Kenny back could make it better. They can't fulfill the story by repeating the old story and taking advantages of the players' nostalgia. They would have to do more work on the other characters. It would make it better.
Jesus, I'm not saying Kenny is a Mary Sue, I'm saying the way they build him in S2 is somehow have something in common with building a Mary … moreSue
That´s what I said that you compared Kenny to a Mary Sue, not that you said Kenny is a Mary Sue.
They focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt.
Why? The history is somehow hurt by Kenny, and not because of subpar writers who were incapable of handling the characters they had and shoved them into a miserable, after thought kind of death like Nick and Sarah, effectively wasting Pete´s death and Carlo´s death, the same writers who introduced a whole new group that did not amount to anything but a few cheap deaths and-of course- AJ?
I don´t get it.
Kenny is not the problem, is the writers.
And if you read what I posted before in this thread, you'll know that I don't hate it to bring Kenny back. I just hate it that they … [view original content]
Jesus, I'm not saying Kenny is a Mary Sue, I'm saying the way they build him in S2 is somehow have something in common with building a Mary … moreSue
That´s what I said that you compared Kenny to a Mary Sue, not that you said Kenny is a Mary Sue.
They focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt.
Why? The history is somehow hurt by Kenny, and not because of subpar writers who were incapable of handling the characters they had and shoved them into a miserable, after thought kind of death like Nick and Sarah, effectively wasting Pete´s death and Carlo´s death, the same writers who introduced a whole new group that did not amount to anything but a few cheap deaths and-of course- AJ?
I don´t get it.
Kenny is not the problem, is the writers.
And if you read what I posted before in this thread, you'll know that I don't hate it to bring Kenny back. I just hate it that they … [view original content]
Yes and on my "canon" plathrough where I pick he choices which I dont so much agree with but think it matched the story so far I either pick wellington or make them leave.
The problem is the wellington ending is literaly the same end for Kenny as season 1
I did choose the Wellington ending, because in this scenario Kenny won't die a certain death in Season3 - Episode1. He might die on his own … moreeventually, the point is we can not know that. It was a satisfying ending for his story arc, he sacrificed himself for Clem and AJ, so they can live a somewhat " happy " live.
There is no way, Telltale gonna let Kenny and Jane survive very long in Season3. They are both determined characters now, not to mention the fact that Telltale has to develop 5 different endings/starts. He might die on his own eventually, the point is we can not know that. It was a satisfying ending for his story arc, he sacrificed himself for Clem and AJ, so they can live a " happy " live.
PS. I never say Kenny is the problem. I want to say bringing him back (with the lazy writers) is the problem.
Okay, then. I thougth you were thinking more like the OP-all the issues of season 2 are somehow the fault of Kenny surviving. Sorry.
I never said Kenny was the cause of ALL the problems,
Oh, really?
You could have fooled me.
, but many of the problems are due to him and how the writers implemented him.
The subpar writers are the problem.
I thought it was a waste to unnecessarily kill off Kenny in Season 1.
In Season 2, I didn't find it believable for him to come back. I think they only brought him back because Clem's supporting characters were a bit weak, and they needed a character to play the father/uncle figure role in the plot.
However, I thoroughly enjoyed the interaction between Clem and Kenny. It brought back memories of her interactions with Lee.
They should handle him different.Sarita dies,he gets mad,then friendly..Season 1 repeating..Since Kenny appeared the cabin group didnt have any developement..HE should return but they should handle his story different
Sorry, Colbert-boy, but it's simply the truth. Kenny was just an all-around great personality, regardless of whether you loved or hated him (I'm guessing you're in the latter category, of course). Between the way he was written, and Gavin Hammon's stellar, multi-layered performance, he really IS one of the most nuanced characters to come out of video games. None of Robert Kirkman's cast (in the comic book OR the TV show) made any sort of connection the way Kenny did for a LOT of fans.
They brought Kenny back because he was too good a character to leave behind in season 1. That's all there is to it.
Sorry if this offends you, but you can't be serious. "Too good," yeah, ok. You got me.
Oh wait. No. That didn't happen. Kenny puts forth a plan, and bitches at anyone who doesn't agree with him until they accept his idea.
Dude, seriously...I know everyone plays the game in their own way, but I'm starting to wonder if you played a version of episode 3 that wasn't available to anyone else. Saying they "went ahead with Kenny's plan" is just a teensy bit ridiculous. The cast used the BASIC OUTLINE of Kenny's strategy, yes, but they also heavily modified it so they wouldn't necessarily have to worry about...oh, I don't know, getting eaten alive by the herd of zombies right outside Carver's compound.
Yes! This! Mike and Rebecca point out how stupid, unpredictable and dangerous Kenny's plan is. That's why the whole group huddles togethe… morer, bounces some other ideas around to find a better plan... Oh wait. No. That didn't happen. Kenny puts forth a plan, and bitches at anyone who doesn't agree with him until they accept his idea.
Not exactly kiddie gloves, but Kenny was definitely vindicated at pretty much every opportunity by the writers. It doesn't matter how insane or brutal or unnecessary his plans and actions are. In the end, Kenny is always proven right. Other characters are only right when and if they agree with Kenny. That really irked me while playing this season.
Kenny was decently written in season one, no more than someone like Omid or Chuck or some other minor character though. Season two, he was a cartoon character. He was like BJ Blazkowicz or the Doom guy, minus the charm.
most nuanced characters to come out of video games.
I wonder if you sucked up to Kenny the entire season? As if I don't already know the answer.
Sorry, Colbert-boy, but it's simply the truth. Kenny was just an all-around great personality, regardless of whether you loved or hated him … more(I'm guessing you're in the latter category, of course). Between the way he was written, and Gavin Hammon's stellar, multi-layered performance, he really IS one of the most nuanced characters to come out of video games. None of Robert Kirkman's cast (in the comic book OR the TV show) made any sort of connection the way Kenny did for a LOT of fans.
It really just feels like they sugarcoated Kenny in Season 2... if you think about it, there is literally no direct way you can disagree with or hate Kenny, you can be pissed but they made Clementine someone who would forgive Kenny in the end no matter how bad he becomes and no matter how much you try to dislike him, the Clementine of the plot was given the option to instantly forgive Kenny.
Comments
Flash news: He got a point angry Kenny fan.
How about... no.
Bringing Kenny back was not the bad idea, the bad idea was letting the writers of season 1 go. Those people could have handled the Cabin Group well, and every other issue that his supposedly the fault of Kenny´s return. The writers of season 2 just fucked up too much, and made some bad decisions. But bringing Kenny bad was not a bad decision, and it doesn´t ruin the story. Kenny surviving the alley is believable, as well as him surviving the warehouse. In the alley, there were windows on both sides. He could have broken one after he shot Ben, and escaped through it. We don´t know the layout of the warehouse, so that Kenny had ways to escape is perfectly believable. We could have used an explanation beyond 'Real lucky', yes, I admit that, but Kenny´s survival is not going to kill the suspension of disbelief. Tyresse survived for seven days in a walker infested gym and nobody gave shit to Kirman about it.
Besides, you can´t seriously be agreeing with the guy who compared Kenny to a Mary Sue. Everybody in season 2, and I mean everybody, is against Kenny one way or another. There an entire scene in Episode 3 devoted to Mike explaining why Kenny´s plan to escape Carver´s Camp is fucking stupid. There is the whole Bonnie and Mike Betrayal. There is Carlos pointing out that he is just going to get everybody killed for his 'truck escape plan'. There is the whole group whispering about Kenny´s temper right after he lost his wife instead of, you know, trying to help him. Hell, the first time he gets a thank you in the whole season (that is not for Clem) is when Bonnie thanks him for taking first watch in the campfire scene. And of course, Jane and her Carver 2.0 theory, but I think I won´t have to mention that too, right? You can´t have that bad of a memory right?
How does that make Kenny a Mary Sue? Explain.
Because this isnt about the characters this is about the writers. Every character against kenny is proved evil or bad in some bizzare way as I mentioned above or is slaughtered for little or no reason
Also kenny surviving in season 1 is a little ridiculous but I let that go as it is slightly possible, still the "i got lucky" thing was daft, also comparing tyreese who is likely one of the best fighters ever seen in the comics with a weapon with season 1 Kenny who dosnt even have a weapon has always been a ridiculous comparison for me
[removed]
Look up what Mary Sue means, some time.
Arvo was already bad.
The Bonnie and Mike thing was simply bad writing.
What?
Tyreese is human, and he survived SEVEN DAYS in a walker infested gym. He should have died. There was no way he could have survived that. I don´t remember if Tyresse gives an explanation, but nothing he says can make his survival believable. He should have gotten tired, sleepy, hungry, have trouble to react on time and things like that but he survived in a walker infested gym like it was nothing to worry about.
As for, Kenny, he had a gun and at least one bullet, and a clear method of escape. I can believe that Kenny survived far more easily that Tyresse surviving just because he is a badass like that.
Actually Jane is the one who began the fight by calling Kenny as asshole and mocking his crushed eye. The whole "Nothing" insult was pretty bad, but the fight in the car was started by Jane.
I don't think Kenny coming back was even favoritism so much as desperation. The new cast wasn't working so they just dragged back the most popular season one character after Clem who wasn't explicitly dead. I was even genuinely happy to see Kenny at first even though I wasn't a big fan of him just because they did such a poor job with the new cast. I was like, "Kenny, thank God! These new people suck." And from there it probably just snowballed where it was easier to use Kenny then take the extra time and effort to build up the new cast enough where the audience would care to see them in the situations they stuck him in. Sad really.
Your observations on Kenny possibly being used in what may have been planned as other people's roles are interesting. Expanding on that, I we remove Kenny from the story or simply assume he had a much smaller role, not only can his roles at the end of Episode 2 and most of three be filled with other cast members, it actually fits a little a better.
Like Luke's whole out of nowhere unexplained and ultimately unimportant disappearance at the end of House of Divided. If Kenny wasn't in the episode, Luke would likely have been the one outside with the rifle shooting at Carver's people. Alvin being killed or not would probably carry a little more weight since Luke actually knows Alvin and the rest of the group and that would lead to a more heated argument with Rebecca in Ep3 than Kenny had with her. And it could have been Sarah instead of Sarita Carver takes hostage if Alvin dies.
And going on from there to In Harm's Way, Luke would have been in the group to suggest and encourage Clem to get the radio while Carlos could have been the one wanting to bring the herd to destroy Howe's. Carlos could have gotten a second beating while Sarah had to be restrained, like you suggested, and Carlos would have been the one to bash Carver's head in, which would give Luke and Sarah's foreshadowing about Carlos ("Never let anyone die on purpose" "Wouldn't do anything crazy or not nice.") some much needed payoff.
Going onto Amid the Ruins is gets more murky though, probably because whatever original plans had greatly changed by that point. But it could have likely been Sarah instead of Sarita getting bitten. She could have freaked out, screamed and gotten bitten and that could have lead into a conflict between Carlos and Clem later instead of Kenny. Carlos could call back to his initial warning for Clem to have stayed away from Sarah and lash out out her and the rest of the group worried Carlos will lose it before he can help Rebecca with the baby since he's the only doctor they know.
And if Sarah was suppose to die in Sarita's place, it could have been Nick in the trailer park (if he was still alive) who doesn't want to live. The comparison between Sarah and Jamie always felt tenuous to me. Sarah clearly doesn't deal well with horrible situations but nothing about her suggested she didn't want to live, she just has panic attacks that keep her from making good decisions. If she wanted to die should probably wouldn't have run off after Carlos died and just let the zombies kill her.
Nick on the other hand was clearly depressed and if you go with him at the end of EP1, he talks about giving up and how it's pointless to go on since everyone is going to die anyway. I could definitely see him in Sarah's place in the trailer, indifferently telling Luke and Clem to leave him behind while he's slouched in a corner, waiting for the end. The scene would carry a little more emotional weight with Luke/Nick instead of Luke/Sarah as well seeing how much Luke worries about Nick, and comparing Luke/Nick and Jane/Jamie seems a lot more relevant than with Clem/Sarah. It also could have created an interesting character dynamic between Luke and Jane, which would have made their sudden pairing seem less random.
This is a little off-topic, but I don't think Jane was originally meant to return in No Going Back either. Her sudden reappearance just undercuts her initial departure and it seems weird she's forced into conflict with Kenny when they were just doing that with Luke at the end of the previous episode. If Kenny did displace other people's roles it's possible it was Carlos that Luke was suppose to be in conflict with and he could have latched onto Rebecca's baby after losing his own child. The Carver comparison could have worked better to since the two men presumably had a history that could have been elaborated on during Ep3.
If you remove Kenny from the picture you can start to see where all the seemingly out of places pieces start to fit together. Still impossible to get a complete picture but it does shed some light on possibilities regarding aborted arcs and forgotten characters.
Agreed I was going to go futhur into rewrites but as you said by ep 4 this is kind of hard to continue as the writers had found their footing with the new approach there, I do think Jane was always meant to stick around, her leaving and coming back is integral to her charcater and also is a surprise due to molly last season
I didn't expect Kenny to spill the beans when you first meet him, but at least maybe some kind of explanation in future episodes would've helped, but that never happens. Compared to Luke, Ben is HEAVILY developed, there's more interesting stuff going on with Ben then there is with Luke by a longshot, Doug also seemed to have a character arc if you save him by becoming more of a tough survivor rather than the geek we saw in episode 1, Carely gets more of a backstory, Lily gets more of a backstory, Larry gets some kind of backstory if you talk to Lily. The thing with Luke, the stuff going on with him in episode 5 was way too late and I would've liked if TT would've tried to give him more character stuff to do rather than just be the generic nice person, He's supposed to be one of the main characters, and If I don't get invested in his character at all, that's a problem. Why is it that it's harder to swallow? Because there was nothing there, that's really just personal interpretation for Kenny fans, Kenny did care about Clem, but never really had much emotional attachment to her, she's a kid, and she needed protecting, but he wasn't looking at her as his daughter as episode 5 implies, there's no build up to it and it's forced. Kenny never seemed like Clem's pal in season 1 at all, that's just your perspective talking.
There actually are, it's just harder to swallow for Kenny fans.
Excellent Post. Everything you said made alot of sense to me and the Season could/would have in fact been alot better if it would have been like this. But there is one thing i have to disagree on with you. Kenny was always meant to return, it was not just a desperation move. Remember the scene from the a house divided trailer. Clem's infamous " I thought you were dead " words. Kenny was always supposed to be that person.
That being said, i am a big Kenny fan and i hate the way his character arc turned out to end. It would have been fine if he died during the events of Season 1. It would also have been fine if would have died during the events of Season 2, or if he survived the whole Season. But making him a determined character is unacceptable in my opinion. He is to important for that.
Jesus, I'm not saying Kenny is a Mary Sue, I'm saying the way they build him in S2 is somehow have something in common with building a Mary Sue. They focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt.
And if you read what I posted before in this thread, you'll know that I don't hate it to bring Kenny back. I just hate it that they bring him back and use the character in this fucking way.
And I feel that some of Kenny's fans (not you) are really ridiculous.
I do admit he was likely going to come back however just not for so much as he does. Also The end of ep 1 just seems abrupt and rushed with the way Pete dies so they could have easily stuck the line on the end to rush a comeback.
Kenny was likely going to come back eventually, but so soon and for so much of the season? Im not sure
I agree with this to a point to, I really didnt want another season with him but all that this means is he'll likely just do someting heroic for 10 minutes and then die in a lame way rather than continue to see the downward spiral, it would be nice if they showed us the negatives of Jane and Kenny in season 3 rather than just a quick scene with each.
Contrary to what people think I wouldnt have minded if kenny had gone off the deepend and lived canon on all games as that would be a new point for him and this development could be explored next season (as multi seasonal characters I think need to be explored soon), as it is hes determinant and his character is back at the start again with a new family he'll do anything to protect (or dead)
You do have a chance to leave Kenny at the rest stop.
That´s what I said that you compared Kenny to a Mary Sue, not that you said Kenny is a Mary Sue.
Why? The history is somehow hurt by Kenny, and not because of subpar writers who were incapable of handling the characters they had and shoved them into a miserable, after thought kind of death like Nick and Sarah, effectively wasting Pete´s death and Carlo´s death, the same writers who introduced a whole new group that did not amount to anything but a few cheap deaths and-of course- AJ?
I don´t get it.
Kenny is not the problem, is the writers.
What fucking way, sir? Explain.
Uh, okay..
Yeah I said that; probably the most out of character ending ever
They didn't need to write Omid and Christa out by that logic aye
Just running in to Kenny bugs me....2 years travling with christa a ride down a river and a 5 day walk then bam Kenny...I live 2 hours from my sisters and never just run into them..
I did choose the Wellington ending, because in this scenario Kenny won't die a certain death in Season3 - Episode1. He might die on his own eventually, the point is we can not know that. It was a satisfying ending for his story arc, he sacrificed himself for Clem and AJ, so they can live a somewhat " happy " live.
There is no way, Telltale gonna let Kenny and Jane survive very long in Season3. They are both determined characters now, not to mention the fact that Telltale has to develop 5 different endings/starts. He might die on his own eventually, the point is we can not know that. It was a satisfying ending for his story arc, he sacrificed himself for Clem and AJ, so they can live a " happy " live.
For the "Mary Sue" problem, what I want to say is the ways the writers building the characters have something in common. The common part is "they focus on ONE character too much, make we all get emotion for him, but the whole story is hurt".
And I said in P4 that at first I think bringing Kenny back a great idea. But then it turns out to be a disaster.
I realize that I fail to get my meaning clear to you. Here I'll try to get it clear.
If the writers are good, and they know how to go on developing Kenny's character well as in S1, or they know how to avoid sheding so much light on him that others won't get fully developed, it'll be good to bring Kenny back.
If the writers are dumb (as they are in S2), then not bringing Kenny back could make it better. They can't fulfill the story by repeating the old story and taking advantages of the players' nostalgia. They would have to do more work on the other characters. It would make it better.
PS. I never say Kenny is the problem. I want to say bringing him back (with the lazy writers) is the problem.
Yes and on my "canon" plathrough where I pick he choices which I dont so much agree with but think it matched the story so far I either pick wellington or make them leave.
The problem is the wellington ending is literaly the same end for Kenny as season 1
Okay, then. I thougth you were thinking more like the OP-all the issues of season 2 are somehow the fault of Kenny surviving. Sorry.
I never said Kenny was the cause of ALL the problems, but many of the problems are due to him and how the writers implemented him.
Oh, really?
You could have fooled me.
The subpar writers are the problem.
You're talking to two different people, man...
And?
And I think perhaps it makes you confused... Never mind, I just worry too much...
I thought it was a waste to unnecessarily kill off Kenny in Season 1.
In Season 2, I didn't find it believable for him to come back. I think they only brought him back because Clem's supporting characters were a bit weak, and they needed a character to play the father/uncle figure role in the plot.
However, I thoroughly enjoyed the interaction between Clem and Kenny. It brought back memories of her interactions with Lee.
They should handle him different.Sarita dies,he gets mad,then friendly..Season 1 repeating..Since Kenny appeared the cabin group didnt have any developement..HE should return but they should handle his story different
Sorry if this offends you, but you can't be serious. "Too good," yeah, ok. You got me.
Sorry, Colbert-boy, but it's simply the truth. Kenny was just an all-around great personality, regardless of whether you loved or hated him (I'm guessing you're in the latter category, of course). Between the way he was written, and Gavin Hammon's stellar, multi-layered performance, he really IS one of the most nuanced characters to come out of video games. None of Robert Kirkman's cast (in the comic book OR the TV show) made any sort of connection the way Kenny did for a LOT of fans.
Dude, seriously...I know everyone plays the game in their own way, but I'm starting to wonder if you played a version of episode 3 that wasn't available to anyone else. Saying they "went ahead with Kenny's plan" is just a teensy bit ridiculous. The cast used the BASIC OUTLINE of Kenny's strategy, yes, but they also heavily modified it so they wouldn't necessarily have to worry about...oh, I don't know, getting eaten alive by the herd of zombies right outside Carver's compound.
Wrong thread.
Why?
...I just think it the wrong way. No particular "why". Sorry about that.
The main point is that Kenny died in Season 1 but he was resurrected by his followers for the sake of the plot in Season 2.
Now I know my ABCs, next time won't you sing with me?
Kenny was decently written in season one, no more than someone like Omid or Chuck or some other minor character though. Season two, he was a cartoon character. He was like BJ Blazkowicz or the Doom guy, minus the charm.
I wonder if you sucked up to Kenny the entire season? As if I don't already know the answer.
It really just feels like they sugarcoated Kenny in Season 2... if you think about it, there is literally no direct way you can disagree with or hate Kenny, you can be pissed but they made Clementine someone who would forgive Kenny in the end no matter how bad he becomes and no matter how much you try to dislike him, the Clementine of the plot was given the option to instantly forgive Kenny.