Why the St. John's were better written villains than Carver and Troy
In my opinion the St. Johns were better written than Carver and Troy. For me this is for several reasons, when we see Carver at the ski lodge he comes across as a very evil person as takes the group hostage beats Carlos and kills Walter and Alvin (Determinant), we get the message that Carver will most probably be this completely evil lunatic and we were right. If you compare this with the St. John's we are no lead to believe that they are evil, quite the opposite actually. They are seen as friendly and caring people who are willing to help with the groups food troubles in return for some gas to power thier electric fence, to begin with they I no way come across as being cold and calculating.
It isn't until later that we start to become more suspicious of what they are up to, whereas we all knew that Carver was a villain by the end of E2 of S2. As well as that we also find out that if anything his second in command Troy is just as heartless and uncaring, it's not that I was expecting Troy to be all smiles and cuddles, but it would have been nice to see even the tiniest bit of empathy.
When Carver kills Reggie we are invited to his office, where he tries to justify his actions to Clementine stating "Killing one in order to save many is part of survival". We can't really see it from his point of view, as he doesn't try to justify murdering Walter and it's hard to sympathise with him when Alvin is battered and bruised in the very same room. He can in no way possible justify his actions. Even bimbo Bonnie manages to see how twisted he has become, eventually. In summary I feel that Carver and Troy are too obvious to be considered well written villains. Please leave a comment if you agree or disagree.
Comments
Sean Vanaman
Mark Darin wrote Starved for Help, not Vanaman.
I found Carver to be the better written villain, but Troy was never meant to be a developed character, he was just there to be brutal and evil, so in my opinion:
Carver > St. John's >>>>>>>>> Troy.
Carver, the same villain that drug an entire group of people into a secluded area where he could and was easily overpowered and had an eleven year old get the drop on him.
Troy, the same villain that got testicle shot and ripped apart because he was reluctant to do anything to the group of people that severely disfigured and murdered his commander-and-chief not but thirty feet away.
A dog biscuit is a more threatening villain.
Mark Darin.
The St. Johns looked evil from the start.
Telltale didn't learn to be more subtle with Carver either. I wish our first encounter with him was more neutral - no evil music, a more vibrant color scheme, no Sarah cowering in terror.
Thats fuckin stupid ben
Personally I thought the St. Johns were suspicious from the start, especially the younger one he was just so damn creepy. I never expected them to be cannibals from first glance though, that was the thing with them, they were weird, but I wasn't quite sure what was up with them.
Carver, I liked him just fine but as I've mentioned before he could have used a bit more development. Troy was, as I've also mentioned before, is basically the generic sadist bully, so of the three he was the worst developed.
So yeah I agree, the St. John's were much better than the S2 antagonists.
Yeah but we didn't know for sure if they were evil.
The St. Johns were pretty suspicious from the start, like others have said, but they were still way better written than Carver. The reason being that despite their horrible actions, they actually felt like vulnerable human beings in the end. See Andy's reaction to learning of Brenda's and Danny's deaths, or Brenda being unable to shoot Lee and begging him to leave them alone. If she was purely evil with no remorse, she'd have shot him right then and there, but she couldn't. Lee even tries to bargain with her, and she doesn't necessarily shut him down, she's just too far gone in her actions and suffers the price for it.
Danny is the only one who's downright evil, but even then he succeeds at being more of a villain than Carver because he's damned creepy. He's a sadist, enjoying the pain he puts his victim's through, and if Telltale had gone through with it, would have also been a leering pedophile on top of that. Carver is just the usual boring fare of "the ultimate villain", with a big fortress, loyal henchmen, "morally gray" actions that are totally not morally gray, and a "we're not so different" speech he gives the hero, in this case a friggin' eleven year old girl.
Now to be fair, Carver was more interesting and threatening in episode 2, but that's also kind of the problem. The St. Johns had one episode devoted to them and we learned a lot about them to humanize their characters despite the cannibalism. We learn who they were through dialogue and backstory, and just checking out stuff around their house. Meanwhile, in two episodes, what the hell did we learn about Carver? Really? Well, we learned he's a bad guy, and he had a kid with Rebecca, and he was once a good guy, not that we ever actually learn what that entailed, and um... oh! We learned that he had a friend named George, not that we ever actually learned how that whole deal with Alvin went down... sigh
So yeah. Pierre what's-his-face seemed to think keeping Carver shrouded in mystery was how you make an interesting villain. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that if you plan to kill the character and never bring those mysteries to light. Plus, the cliched nature of Carver didn't help. Not that a crazy Southern cannibal family is any less cliched, mind you, but there was a real attempt to humanize the St. Johns and make them feel real, far more than Carver ever was.
EDIT: I just noticed I said Carver had a kid with Rebecca, and while that certainly seemed to be the narrative they were pushing at first, AJ in episode 5 looking more similar to Alvin than he did in episode 4 kind of cancels that out. My mistake.
Starved for Help was pretty great as a self-contained story. We learn more about the St. Johns in one episode than we do about Carver and his people in an entire season.
I suppose that Troy could have been developed further into a creep along the lines of Danny. Or, on the other hand, the vague hints of him fearing Carver (looking sad when Kenny gets beaten, ignoring the fact that he bashes in in a little girl/grown woman's face immediately beforehand) could have been expanded further.
I've speculated a bit about how Carver's role could have been expanded, and I wonder if it actually would have been interesting if circumstances worked to force Clem to remain under his thumb. Axe Kenny 2.0, and actually transpose some of that character's shtick (angsting about his dead family, superficial remorse, severe anger issues and creepy possessiveness towards children) onto Carver.
Oh.
St John's where better written by a good country mile.....
Starved for help was one of the best episodes of S1 imo, very well done, had me on edge all the way the through, I was totally exhausted after playing that episode....
Carver and co.... it was transparent, much like most of S2, I never felt threatened, when kenny got done over I was just laughing knowing kenny was going to destroy him him soon...
Yeah, that was one of the really cool things about the St. John's, if you looked at some of their stuff, your conversation with Brenda while she's holding Katjaa hostage changes. If you look at their degrees for example, "You guys were obviously smart, what the Hell happened?" Or if you look at the awards Brenda's husband got for the farm, "Would your husband want this to be done at his farm?" (Not the exact wording, but you get the point).
Episode 2 Carver was better Episode 3 Carver...not so much
And the Saint Johns, who decide to throw 4 able-bodied and pissed off adults into a meat-locker, leave an incompetent moron to guard the barn full of said pissed off people (who continues to keep his back turned to the meat-locker, sits out in the noisy rain, gets lost in his own thoughts, and keeps his gun next to him in an easy to grab location), then tell said incompetent moron to go kill 4 of the pissed off people on his own, without getting destroyed the second he walks in, which they wouldn't be able to hear, because they decided to leave him all alone in the barn
I don't think any of them are looking too smart here
What's Lead Writer?
Your damn right brother, Starved for help was the best.
The lead writer is the guy basically in charge of the game and overseeing the writing portion of every episode and creating the major storyline for the season. In Season 1, the lead or head writer was Sean Vanaman, who wrote A New Day, Long Road Ahead, and No Time Left. In Season 2, it was Nick Breckon, who wrote All That Remains, A House Divided, and No Going Back.
Love the profile pic.
You just keep saying that everywhere?
"You need to calm the fuck down Kenny, or i'll put you down."
I didn't think Carver was a "villain" There aren't any good guys/ bad guys anymore. He reminded me a lot of my dad, like how he would be nice one moment call me Sport, then the next moment he pushes someone off a roof. You learn not to piss him off, for your own self preservation. He was a mean old sunofabitch, but at least he taught me respect. Why didn't anyone ever try to befriend Carver, he was obviously a good leader/provider for his group, he just needed some counseling to be a little bit more understanding, and things would of been golden.
Kenny is more of a villain than Carver. was, throughout the episodes he would get progressively worse. If Carver was such a bad guy why didn't he just shoot them all during the escape attempt. There was always that part of him that held back , that Kenny Lacked. Kenny destroyed the mans face, then grabs a boy and holds a gun to his head to attempt to coerce the other Russian in giving up. Then later later the same day he nearly beats the boy to death with his hands.
Wow really does the dialogue change?
Yeah, it's pretty interesting, one of the few instances of looking at something changing anything, I hope they do more of this in future episodes/games.
I'm embarrassed to admit, but it actually took me a while to figure out that the St. Johns were evil. (Granted, I didn't think the dairy would be completely safe.) It wasn't until Brenda refused to let Lee see Mark that I caught on. With that said, I thought they were great villains, and they really made the episode for me. There's really nothing to say about Carver; he was just your stock psychotic dictator. TellTale could have handled him a lot better, but I guess it just boils down to lazy writing.
Your dad pushed someone off a roof?
That is so cool, what happens if Lee asked what happened? Does she say why they decided to eat people?
I'm all ears.
Nope, but my grandfather got in trouble with the law for shooting a man in a bar fight when he was sixteen. He was given a choice to go to WW2, or jail, he picked WW2 and got fucked up in the war. These are the people that influenced me in my life, my dad would beat the living shit out of me if i disrespected him or talked back, like Clementine does about the radio.
That was my dad. If i would of said I'm sorry, I'm sure my Dad would of reacted the exact same way. A hard person to live with, but he wasn't a villain.
I agree there was too few different answers depending on what dialogue you chose.
Nick Breckon. But Nate is probably better written than any of them.
Sure, but the Saint John's were three dumbass country cannibals. Carver was supposedly a wise tyrant who ruled an entire community of bandits and extremist's.
I like Carver as an vilian but I prefer St. John brother, althought they were not smart it was very good that episode.
For me the problem with Craver is killing Reggie and maybe he died too soon in the season 3, he should be the final villian of season 2. Not a fucking constents which is more crazy Kenny or Jane ... Actually episode 3 is my favorite of season 2.
A wise tyrant whose empire was brought down by a little girl.
I don't understand how you can say Kenny is more evil. Carver is a sadastic brute who knows no bounds he kills Reggie over plants that weren't cut properly and then somehow tries to justify it, he puts the group through forced labour while he twiddles his thumbs in his office, he murders Walter and kills Alvin or beats him to within an inch of his life, he beats Kenny to within an inch of his life, beats Carlos right in front of his daughter and possible raped Rebecca. In my opinion Kenny was justified in ending his life, he was ending Carvers life because he had brought and to several other peoples live and caused misery to many others.
I'm not saying that all of Kenny's actions are justified, I don't agree with him beating the shit out of Arvo. But Kenny is no way near as evil as Carver.
Maybe I am the only one who saw it this way but I always saw Reggie as the fall guy (hah, get it?). He was the one who got left behind but was still involved with the escape plan. Call me a sadist, but if I wanted to punish someone for that I would give them hope they had a chance to return to my good graces but the second they are done licking my boots and right before they "get back in" you murk 'em. That to me is the cruelest thing someone could do, and it was the feeling I got the second I saw Reggie begging for Carver's approval. He kept him around to make an example of him once he got everyone back. The way he secretly offs him though doesn't really insinuate this though. Maybe it was because I wanted Carver to be cynical and calculating. But they kinda flushed that down the pooper.
Im actually pissing my self here lol... what a line! LoL
So a bit more like the governor.
Carver did that to intimidate a couple of children, being a coward and all.