What is morally right about...
I want to get to the bottom of this. I want to know, what is justified about throwing a 100lb saltlick on an unconscious father's face with his distraught daughter being close enough to have her dad's brains and skull matter paint her face?
Close enough for a young scared girl to see every gory detail. I don't want medical stats nor do I want the "Larry was simply dead" argument. I want conclusive testimony to how Kenny was ok to subtract the life of man over a hunch.
Now, I'm biased. But I can also be fair, so if you have some ideal as to why Kenny is even remotely in the right for something so morally bleak, please post it up here...
Oh yeah, keep it civil I guess.
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Survival.
Super Survival Specialist Jane would have done the same.
Kenny is in the same row boat as Jane, then...
Well, at least you know who you're following.
*Murder
Minutes ago they were unknowingly eating human meat and they were put in a situation were morals mean jack shit.
Some fucker breaks into your house and holds your wife at gunpoint and is going to shoot her at any moment, the only way out is to kill him and you have the perfect chance to do it. Do you sit back and think "hurr this is morally wrong" or shoot the fucker?
Anyone with a working brain knows what's the best decision to take here.
Larry wasn't a cannibal or a burglar though. Are you saying it's ok to take out your aggression on innocent people?
Also, if you remember. Kenny let's you get attacked and does nothing if you choose to aid Larry. So, Kenny didn't "shoot the burglar." He assisted him in almost killing another group member. Thank God for Lily.
Thats where you got me. Larry stopped breathing and had no pulse, was it really worth the risk putting everyone in danger and try to revive him?
Tell me how it was morally Right.
It wasnt.
I mentioned the cannibalism to show the severity of the situation. They had enemies outside the meat locker, a soon to become walker inside the meat locker and they were worried about the safety of the group that was left outside. They were on edge, have you ever been like that? I doubt it. Nobody is taking out their aggression on anyone they're just getting rid out of one of many issues.
It wasn't morally right. But he stopped breathing and had no pulse. That choice Kenny made was based on fear that he wouldn't get to his family. I can understand it, but I don't agree with it.
I think you're more like Jane than you think.
Not to the point of killing an unconscious man after ninety seconds because I'm usually pretty level-headed.
Sure. So, why not try opening the grating then while Lee and Lily were busy resuscitating Larry? If Kenny wanted to be proactive, try helping us to not get our nice clothes splattered with brains.
Kenny thought he was in the right trying to protect his people by killing one in order to save another, he didn't wait long before Kenny actually did what he did..
Kenny obviously right with what he did, but at the time of the moment he thought he was in the right to try and save his friends by killing Larry. If you do choose to help Lilly get Larry back to life with CPR you can see that Larry twitches, I don't know if he was turning into a walker or coming back to right..
If he was coming back to life Kenny had just murdered a man out of fear and out of protection, that's all.. If however larry as turning into a walker then Kenny did save his people and did make a right choice to smash his head with a salt brick.
what does that have to do with anything
"Oh, God, he's stopped breathing!" - Lilly
Unconscious people breathe, dead people don't. He died. Yeah there's a CHANCE that CPR might work but he DIED and from what we know so far in what's written in the lore, the infection starts as soon as the person dies. btw CPR isn't as effective as movies make it seem.
I don't know.... maybe because Lee is the one who figures that one out?
Im on your side here Clem, not just because of the name but because youmake some solid points
Hypothetically, what's moral about letting a zombie run rampant and kill you and your party through your inaction?
You can claim the moral absolute of 'no killing' and take the risk, even if it leaves you dead, but I think few people are that absolute. Once that is broken, circumstances come into question and, quite frankly, people can talk themselves into just about anything. In this case in particular, there are multiple moral pulls, and selecting one over the other is ambiguous, plus time necessitates a decision.
adrenaline
Wasn't his call. Even if Larry wasn't going to make it, it has to be Lilly's call. Wondering why Kenny didn't just wait until he came back to smash his head in. Could've been an easy thing to do. If Lee helps Lilly, Kenny could've easily picked up the salt lick and waited for him to turn, then smash his head. But instead killed him, in under 5 minutes of the heart attack. That's why I think there was some form of foul play involved.
Even tho he starts breathing after 4 compressions?
To save everybody else. CPR wasn't going to do jack shit to a man with a heart attack without any access to medicine, and his daughter was going to die if she was hovering over his body. I was thinking that this world functioned under accurate medical conditions, which is why I found it rather silly that Larry supposedly takes a breath if you try to revive him.
Doesn't mean I don't regret traumatizing Lilly, and Kenny certainly didn't help by bragging about it.
"If however larry as turning into a walker then Kenny did save his people and did make a right choice to smash his head with a salt brick." So he can't hold the saltlick over Larry's head, and wait for a signal from Lee?
"Kenny thought he was right." "Kenny obviously right with what he did, but at the time of the moment he thought he was in the right to try and save his friends by killing Larry." These are things that Jane supporters can say about her actions too....
That actually looked like he was turning. Remember Shane and his hatred? He turned quick.
Just forget about morals its ZA. Its all about survival
Not this again....
This is how the game works folks, by putting us in lots of situations that are neither black or white.... if it was obvious what the right decision was it wouldn't be much of a game would it...
The meat locker scene was awesome, it had me swinging back and forth.. great scene...
Was it morally right to finish him? Was it morally right to try and save a man in such a situation with no medical assistance and put everyone's life including a little a girl in danger?
The truth is we can debate this til, the end of time and still get no where, I helped kenny smash his head in, he was a fool and was constantly a bad vibe in the group... does that mean he deserved to die, NO! But my back was to the wall and my job was to protect clem and the group.. not a guy who has just given his self a heart attack.... had it been in normal circumstances I would have helped and called for an ambulance, but I was trapped in a meat locker with the very real possibility that he could turn into a walker at any second..... sorry but bye bye larry old pall.
Actually, he only takes that breath if you do a certain amount of compressions, if he was turning, he'd do it every time and not just when you press his chest a certain amount of times.
Because, for someone who is so adamantly against every single character trait of Jane. You talk a lot like her. That's all.
"He's not dead! Lee, please, help me!" -Lily
Yes, a very big chance CPR would work. Recitation does work, especially for people who only momentarily stop breathing.
Let's not get too off track. But, to answer your question. Larry wasn't a zombie.
His heart stopped for a total of ninety seconds before Kenny took it upon himself to smash... smash in the head of a father close enough for Lily to taste her father's brain chunks on her lips.
Morally, it was wrong. Point blank.
Completely agree. I get the strange feeling, seeing as Kenny holds grudges, he was waiting for an opportunity to "subtract" Larry from the picture.
Larry, after all, suggests "smashing in" Duck's head in episode one. So, the connection is there.
So, you pulled a terrified women off of her dad while his head was viciously smash in partially because you don't like him?
I don't even think Crawford is that fucked up...
I was willing to give Larry a chance to revive him, he looked like he was alive. His skin would've been pale like Ben's teacher was, we all seen his skin go pale very quickly. Larry didn't have pale skin. Plus if he was truly turned, we would've heard raspy breathing if we were doing CPR, usually walkers makes that sound when they wake up.
But for the ones who did help Kenny, well I dunno, everyone has their reasons. Mine, for helping Lilly save Larry, was to make sure Lilly to have something in her life despite us not getting along often, and to show Larry (hopefully) that we're all together in this.
My point here is that morality is a yes or no, but a series of different pulls. It's like force vectors, and Kenny might have judged that the risk of his inaction, and the moral pull, was weaker than the moral pull to give Larry time.
That said, I'm largely playing devil's advocate - Kenny hated me my first round because I almost always sided with Lilly.
You know, the one thing I remember about the meat locker scene was immense shame for having to search through Larry's pockets for something to help us escape in front of a grieving daughter. I felt bad... REALLY bad.
And I remember Kenny just pacing back and forth angrily, not trying to console or comfort Lily and apologize. Him just bitching at Lee cause he refused to murder someone over a hunch. Not trying to escape, he had done his "good" deed for the day.
I think the choice and the justification of it can be argued beyond the principles of morality alone, and that the justification of the act is not specifically tied to the moral and ethical aspects of it
It's not morally right, but that doesn't mean you can't argue the justification of the action outside of that perspective
Yeah... I felt really horrible for looting a corpse of someone's dad. I felt as dirty as Seth from Red Dead Redemption. What's worse is Larry looked and acted just like my dad. Telltale really tortured me in that scene, I didn't cry, but I was disturbed.
.-.
Well Kenny was never the rational one in the first place. lel :P I'll admit, I was mad when he was being inconsiderate and left me to die several times. We didn't always get along, but we were okay. I had to make sure everyone's well beings were considered, so did Kenny(even though he can be a dick about it sometimes), we had different ways of doing our thing, but in the end we had the same goal, keeping everyone safe as much as we can. Kenny was always complicated.
EDITS: Oops! I meant to say inconsiderate, not considerate! [facepalm]
Nope! And if you read my post I answered that question, he was a cock we know it, but he didnt deserve to die because of it... I wrote that above.
But my job was to protect clem and the group and that includes lilly !
When you understand the situation that we found ourselves in only then can judge the morality of the situation..... for example.......
You and 4 of your friends are walking down the street, 2 of those friends get run over...... would you leave them and walk on? No! And neither would I....
Now lets change the situation....
You and 4 of your buddys are storming the Normandy beaches on D day..... 2 of your friends get shot in the face..... now what do you do? Help them in the vain attempt you can save them or at least ease there suffering, while in doing so putting your remaining 2 buddys and yourself in grave danger of having your head took off?
If you know anything of history you will know all soldiers were told to leave the wounded for this very reason... its a totally different situation and one that merits its own set of moral lines..... on a normal day in normal circumstances..... im there.... but in such situations crazzy shit happens....
People are forced to do "phucked up" things in "phucked up" situations, thats just life, and although a ZA is a fantasy, there are many situations you can liken it to.. such as war!
Now the locker scene.... if it played out that larry came back as a walker this would not be a topic, but again thats what makes the game what it is... you have to stand by your decisions, and I dont expect to be called "phucked up" because of them...
I didnt enjoy caving that mans face in, no matter how much I didn't like him, I actually felt bad after that scene but would it be right to put myself in a situation where I have to helplessly watch walker larry take off his daughters face and then rip little clem apart? Its a 2 sided coin my friend, and thats my point here, this thread is a waste of time, everyone has there view on the situation and thats it.. done..
If you found a guy with his leg stuck in a bear trap would you simply cut it off? NO but we did at the beginning of S1 ep2 because of the situation we found ourselves in..
And with the OP saying "I don't want medical stats nor do I want the "Larry was simply dead" argument. I want conclusive testimony to how Kenny was ok to subtract the life of man over a hunch."
My take on said situation was that I was there to keep the group and clem most of all safe.... if that means ending larry.. so be it..... my opinion is that even if larry was to make a miraculous recovery, how would he survive the escape?...
And this was my issue with S2.... when in the meat locker I was hyper tense! Because I had clem to look after... it was my first thought... in S2 I didnt habe this pull so my decisions didn't feel anywere near as Important..... had I been looking after clem in S2 and kenny out her in danger.... I would of blew his ass away in a heartbeat... now that WOULD of been a good kenny ending... but we got this rambo clem shit..... sorry wrong thread
I liked Larry, even when he treated me like shit, the anger in his face,
It made me like him more.
I have issues.
According to the study, the chance of surviving an out−of−hospital heart attack long enough to be eventually discharged from a hospital is only 7.6%, roughly 1 out of 13. While knowledge of how to treat heart attacks has increased substantially, this has not translated into more lives saved.
Were you saying?
To simply put it, it wasn't morally right. People did it because they either A.)hated Larry or Lilly or and/or B.) didn't want to risk him coming back as a walker. Which is somewhat hypocritical for Kenny to immediately want to smash his head in, considering he was in the same sort of situation Lilly was in the episode 1.
I can somewhat understand why people did make that choice, but I just didn't think it was fair on Lilly's side of the situation to not at least try to revive him myself when we let Duck stay in the pharmacy not knowing if he was bit or not. Plus, I found her easier to sympathize with than in Kenny's situation where he reacts with anger instead of sadness like Lilly.
Yes, I was saying it's better to try to salvage the life of an unconscious man then to smash in his head because you're paranoid.
The studies show 0.0% of unconscious people survive paranoid rednecks with saltlicks. Your point is as valid as the flimsy statistic I've pulled out of my ass just now. This is a question of morality, not how "bad for Larry the situation looked."
I personally think Lily is the most tragic character in The Walking Dead, more so than Kenny.
The amount of pain she endured, I was always there to try and keep her and Kenny "murderboner" on fair grounds. It can't be easy to have witnessed something like that happen and then try to still keep the civility of your group intact by not killing the man. She's much stronger than I would have been.
The morality issue differs between different player's on how they all see Larry and the meat locker situation. While many tried to save Larry, many other's helped Kenny to kill him.
The why depend's on each player's view of Larry and the situation so their isn't a simple right or wrong answer. Some people believed Larry wasn't dead or could be saved and they chose to help Lilly. Some people felt Larry was dead or was going to die so they helped Kenny in order to protect the group inside the meat locker.
Then there's people like me, who helped Kenny kill Larry after Larry tried to kill Lee back at the pharmacy. I didn't care if Larry was already dead or if he could be saved, this was the first chance we got to do something about a man that punched (my) Lee in the face leaving him for the walkers, after we had just gone through so much, including killing Lee's own walker brother, to get the key's to the pharmacy to save Larry.
Larry attempted to kill Lee and even warned Lee to "watch your ass". It would have been foolish for Lee to let Larry live long enough to try to kill Lee again. The OP want's to argue morality but seem's to forget what Lee did for Larry. Where is the morality in trying to kill someone that just saved your life? Now you want us to forget about that and worry about why we didn't try to save his life again?
Larry was a threat to Lee who was trying to protect Clementine, Larry would have been a threat to all of us in the meat locker if he died and turned. Killing him was done to ensure survival.
I will also add, I was seriously concerned about Lilly right after that, we just killed her father in front of her and I would have fully expected Lilly to seek revenge. I would have understood that, and she even had a chance to shoot the St. John brother to help Lee but she didn't because of what just happened. I was fully expecting to have to kill Lilly if needed.