I'd like for people to explain the moral justification for Kenny as to why he was ok for murdering an unconscious man.
This doesn't matter because Kenny didn't believe he was unconscious
The medical argument is flimsy cause as we all know, Kenny was a fisherman, not a CPR certified fisherman. Just a plain old run-of-the-mill fisherman. So, he didn't know how many people survive a heart attack, he jumped the gun far enough for a person to unjustly die.
You just explained why Kenny couldn't know if Larry was unconscious
he jumped the gun far enough for a person to unjustly die.
Yes, he jumped the gun and decided Larry was dead. And simple logic follow that if Larry was dead he'd turn into a zombie.
The only* possible *mistake Kenny made here was immediately assuming Larry was dead instead of unconscious. And that's more on Kenny panicking under time pressure (if Larry is dead, then he only has a few seconds before Larry comes back, overpowers them all, goes on a rampage, kills the rest of the group) and not being a medical professional.
I'd like for people to explain the moral justification for Kenny as to why he was ok for murdering an unconscious man. I've seen people just… moreify it to themselves, I just want to know what that is.
The medical argument is flimsy cause as we all know, Kenny was a fisherman, not a CPR certified fisherman. Just a plain old run-of-the-mill fisherman. So, he didn't know how many people survive a heart attack, he jumped the gun far enough for a person to unjustly die.
I haven't heard one single good argument yet. So, my cold biased opinion is still that Kenny wanted Larry gone and used the "oh my god, he's dead" bait to cover up a homicide.
"It shows that killing Larry was only the first concerning sign of an eventual madman."
You say this as if Kenny did so many worse things after this. IMO this was the worst thing Kenny ever did, and it was more an act of stupidity than anything else.
The smart move would've been waiting until Larry was actually dead and Lilly had been given a chance to say goodbye. But Kenny clearly didn't consider that possibility. (And it annoyed me that we weren't given the chance to suggest this course of action, but it's understandable from a gaming perspective. They wanted this event to happen no matter what and weren't going to give us a real chance to stop it.)
But that's Kenny's biggest flaw. He doesn't really ever stop to think about things before acting. He immediately comes up with an idea of what he thinks the best course of action is and then is very stubborn in sticking with his initial plan.
And that would've made him an awful leader. But it didn't make him a bad person that was beyond redemption.
And without a doubt I think Kenny totally earned his redemption in both games, in my playthrough at least. (First by sacrificing himself in trying to save someone he hated in Ben, and then in sacrificing his own happiness in order to do what's best for Clem and AJ)
I like your pragmatism. This is how discussions are brought to middle terms.
Have a like.
The only thing is that although the one acti… moreon doesn't condemn him. It's what his actions were after, he was still actively hostile toward Lilly even after he had killed her dad. He could've at the very least tried mending her pain. Maybe going back with her and helping bury her father, or something... anything. It shows that killing Larry was only the first concerning sign of an eventual madman.
"It shows that killing Larry was only the first concerning sign of an eventual madman."
You say this as if Kenny did so many worse t… morehings after this. IMO this was the worst thing Kenny ever did, and it was more an act of stupidity than anything else.
The smart move would've been waiting until Larry was actually dead and Lilly had been given a chance to say goodbye. But Kenny clearly didn't consider that possibility. (And it annoyed me that we weren't given the chance to suggest this course of action, but it's understandable from a gaming perspective. They wanted this event to happen no matter what and weren't going to give us a real chance to stop it.)
But that's Kenny's biggest flaw. He doesn't really ever stop to think about things before acting. He immediately comes up with an idea of what he thinks the best course of action is and then is very stubborn in sticking with his initial plan.
And that would've made him an… [view original content]
There was no reason for him not to give Lee a few seconds to make sure Larry was dead, and give Lilly the chance to say goodbye, and then allow for both of them to get a safe distance away from him. If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
In my playthrough I was busy giving CPR to Larry while Lilly was crying over her dad's body. Clearly that was not the right time to drop a huge weight on his head.
There was no reason for him not to give Lee a few seconds to make sure Larry was dead, and give Lilly the chance to say goodbye, and then allow for both of them to get a safe distance away from him. If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
You mean like when earlier in the chapter a guy who died from blood loss took only a few seconds to come back as a walker?
If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
Again, referring back to that point in the story, the "slightest" sign of turning the guy exhibited was grabbing for Katja.
And that guy was scrawny. Zombie Larry wouldn't be as weak.
There was no reason for him not to give Lee a few seconds to make sure Larry was dead, and give Lilly the chance to say goodbye, and then al… morelow for both of them to get a safe distance away from him. If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
In my playthrough I was busy giving CPR to Larry while Lilly was crying over her dad's body. Clearly that was not the right time to drop a huge weight on his head.
There was no reason for him not to give Lee a few seconds to make sure Larry was dead, and give Lilly the chance to say goodbye, and then al… morelow for both of them to get a safe distance away from him. If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
You mean like when earlier in the chapter a guy who died from blood loss took only a few seconds to come back as a walker?
If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
Again, referring back to that point in the story, the "slightest" sign of turning the guy exhibited was grabbing for Katja.
And that guy was scrawny. Zombie Larry wouldn't be as weak.
Still ... at the very least you give people enough time to get a safe distance away.
Really? So they know the exact number of seconds it takes for a dead person to become a Walker? If Larry was dead all along, they timed how long he stayed dead?
If Larry was dead, how sure could Kenny be that in the time it takes for Lily to cry over his body, for Lee to pull her off, for them to move Clementine and Lily to a corner, that Larry won't start eating people?
Katja new that guy was dead, she just didn't know the dead were a threat unless they were bit.
That doesn't matter.
All Kenny saw was Katja declaring him dead, then a few seconds later the corpse attacked Katja.
So all Kenny (and anyone else) knows is
Person Dies -> A few seconds pass -> Corpse reanimates and starts attacking people
The slightest sign Kenny knows is that the body will get up and start eating people.
Lee was still giving Larry CPR in my game, so clearly he didn't think he was dead yet.
This matters how? People give CPR to dead people in real life. Kenny made the choice to not take the chance, and given what he saw earlier and how Larry wasn't breathing or moving he made a reasonable choice to crush Larry's skull before what Kenny thought was his corpse to come back at any second and start attacking people.
Still ... at the very least you give people enough time to get a safe distance away.
Katja new that guy was dead, she just didn't know th… moree dead were a threat unless they were bit.
Lee was still giving Larry CPR in my game, so clearly he didn't think he was dead yet.
I can't believe you're still trying to keep this argument going. Kenny was dumb enough to view it as a black and white decision between killing Larry that very second and letting him turn into a zombie that kills everyone. Doesn't mean everyone else has to view it in the same way.
The way he went about it was extremely stupid and rash, IMO. If you feel differently that's your right. But I have no desire to debate it any further. I've already explained why I feel he handled the situation very poorly.
At the very least he could've waited for Lee to say he was dead and then told Lee to take Lilly a safe distance away. This may have only been like 10 seconds away from happening. It wasn't likely to make a big difference in the matter, but it'd make a huge difference in Lilly's eyes. You don't need to smash her father's face in inches away from her unless there's some immediate threat to someone's safety beyond "Gee, maybe he's already dead, and maybe he may turn within the next few seconds, and then maybe I won't have enough time to lift this block up and stop him"
(Gah ... I actually allowed myself to be dragged into continuing this. I'm done now, I promise. Anything more will just be reshashing stuff that I've already said.)
Still ... at the very least you give people enough time to get a safe distance away.
Really? So they know the exact number of second… mores it takes for a dead person to become a Walker? If Larry was dead all along, they timed how long he stayed dead?
If Larry was dead, how sure could Kenny be that in the time it takes for Lily to cry over his body, for Lee to pull her off, for them to move Clementine and Lily to a corner, that Larry won't start eating people?
Katja new that guy was dead, she just didn't know the dead were a threat unless they were bit.
That doesn't matter.
All Kenny saw was Katja declaring him dead, then a few seconds later the corpse attacked Katja.
So all Kenny (and anyone else) knows is
Person Dies -> A few seconds pass -> Corpse reanimates and starts attacking people
The slightest sign Kenny knows is that the body will get up and start eating people.
Lee was still giving Larry C… [view original content]
Kenny was dumb enough to view it as a black and white decision between killing Larry that very second and letting him turn into a zombie that kills everyone.
Right the situation where on one hand Larry is alive the other hand he's dead and in a matter of seconds will come back as a walker will eat them all is not black and white.
The way he went about it was extremely stupid and rash, IMO.
Extremely stupid? No.
Extremely rash? Yes.
But given that corpses come back within a few seconds as walkers. He needs to make an extremely rash decision. He has doesn't have the luxury of time to decide.
At the very least he could've waited for Lee to say he was dead and then told Lee to take Lilly a safe distance away. This may have only been like 10 seconds away from happening. It wasn't likely to make a big difference in the matter
It takes less than 10 seconds for a walker to get up grab someone, and chomp down on them. And this is Larry who's bigger and stronger than your average person. Which means he'll be even stronger than an average walker.
You don't need to smash her father's face in inches away from her unless there's some immediate threat to someone's safety beyond "Gee, maybe he's already dead, and maybe he may turn within the next few seconds, and then maybe I won't have enough time to lift this block up and stop him"
In a matter of seconds the walker got up and grabbed Katja. It took 1 person barely holding that walker off, and it even had a handicap of not being able to walk, and another person with an axe to put that walker down.
What exactly could they have done in that room? Kenny dropping a block on an even stronger walker while Lee is under it?
I can't believe you're still trying to keep this argument going. Kenny was dumb enough to view it as a black and white decision between kil… moreling Larry that very second and letting him turn into a zombie that kills everyone. Doesn't mean everyone else has to view it in the same way.
The way he went about it was extremely stupid and rash, IMO. If you feel differently that's your right. But I have no desire to debate it any further. I've already explained why I feel he handled the situation very poorly.
At the very least he could've waited for Lee to say he was dead and then told Lee to take Lilly a safe distance away. This may have only been like 10 seconds away from happening. It wasn't likely to make a big difference in the matter, but it'd make a huge difference in Lilly's eyes. You don't need to smash her father's face in inches away from her unless there's some immediate threat to someone's safety beyond "Gee, maybe he's alrea… [view original content]
That's exactly what it is. A weird fasciation with hearing your opinion validated by others I suppose?
This image is yellow and red. … moreBut if you forget about the red and assume, for all intents and purposes, that the red is no longer present then what is it?
Look at that face. I bet she's thinking "I'm glad Kenny saved me from my father. Studies show that a low percentage of heart attack victims survive. Kenny only dropped a large heavy object on my father's face and I can still taste his brains. Small price to pay for such a swell guy with a heart of gold that put his priorities above us... I mean..."
No grieving, cause she knew that her father was dead (obviously).
Fuck whats Morally right, Whats morally right about being an old racist asshole as my Lee described him and punching a man and leaving him f… moreor dead when he just risked his life for you to get pills for your heart condition.. If you recall he wanted to smash Duck's head in back in ep 1. I held that bitch back while Kenny did the deed, he had what was coming to him.
Not me, I actually like the majority of the characters, including Kenny but that doesn't make me a person who defends every unjustifiable action they make.
It's ok. You can't talk sense into some of the Kenny fans. They believe, because Kenny (an experienced commercial fisherman) said Larry was … moredead. He was clinically dead.
Wow.... The same could be said for your hate for the guy. It's so funny. If it were Lee that did exactly what Kenny had done almost all of you would be defending him using the same arguments we are in defending Kenny.
Difference between episode 1 and 2 is that Larry hasn't even harmed a hair on anyone's head because like it or not they're all in it together now, Larry even starts thinking of the group, he tries to justify he isn't being racist, you know some people just dislike one another and it has nothing to do with their skin and yeah Larry punched Lee to the floor and nearly got him killed after getting medicines for him but he barely knew the guy while Kenny refuses to stop the train, locking Lee out of the control room and causing everyone to get killed by a zombified Duck after everything Lee had done for the guy and his family. Larry only canonly gets Lee almost killed one time, while Kenny gets Lee uncanonly killed multiple times.
Fuck whats Morally right, Whats morally right about being an old racist asshole as my Lee described him and punching a man and leaving him f… moreor dead when he just risked his life for you to get pills for your heart condition.. If you recall he wanted to smash Duck's head in back in ep 1. I held that bitch back while Kenny did the deed, he had what was coming to him.
Look at that face. I bet she's thinking "I'm glad Kenny saved me from my father. Studies show that a low percentage of heart attack victims … moresurvive. Kenny only dropped a large heavy object on my father's face and I can still taste his brains. Small price to pay for such a swell guy with a heart of gold that put his priorities above us... I mean..."
No grieving, cause she knew that her father was dead (obviously).
It was fucked up, and that's the end of it. If he wanted to keep the group safe, he could've held the saltlick in his hands, standing over Larry while they were giving him CPR, only dropping it if he turned into a walker. He didn't "help" the group by doing what he did, he drove a very useful member of the group to insanity. As much as I like Kenny, he is a dangerous person.
Moral argument: It is the most moral option to focus on keeping people alive, rather then risking lives on someone that is already dead. Lilly was recklessly risking her life in trying to save Larry. By making sure Larry can't "get back up", you ensure that Lily, and everyone else in the room, stays alive.
Larry wasn't unconscious. If he was simply knocked out, no one would have tried to kill him. He wasn't breathing, he had no pulse. He was D.E.A.D., DEAD.
That said, by doing CPR and all that stuff, it's possible to bring the person back to life. This, however, does not take away from the fact that the person was dead for a short amount of time. To say he was simply unconscious truly shows a terrible bias which does not reflect reality.
That said, since he had died only moments earlier, it's quite possible to bring him back to life. Normally, this would be encouraged and you would never be so callous as to say "the man is dead, so it's okay to crush his head in with a salt lick". However, this is not a normal situation and Lilly was risking her life, and the lives of everyone else in the room, by doing CPR.
In this episode, we learn for the first time that you don't have to be bitten by a walker to turn undead. Anyone that dies will become one. We also know that the amount of time it takes for this change to happen can be under a minute. Not always, but sometimes. Lilly, distraught with grief was no longer caring about anything but doing CPR for as long as it took to bring Larry back.
Doing CPR though, is the absolute most risky thing that can be done in this situation. If Larry turned, he would immediately start biting and Lilly lips are pressed against him. She would get bit. There is absolutely no way anyone could protect her in time if Larry turned. One can look at Larry taking a breath at the end of the resuscitation and say that it's wrong because we know it would work. However, that is hindsight. You can't take the result, which is ambiguous anyway, and retroactively justify the actions taken. You have to look at it from the beginning.
Lets say that there is a 50% chance of Larry being saved or remaining dead. Larry would certainly want to be saved but if he was told that there was a 50% chance of him killing his daughter instead, do you think he would want Lilly to take that kind of risk? Especially since, without his pills, he's crippled himself anyway. I'm sure he would want to be killed rather then risk his daughter to become a zombie.
If it was just Lilly's life, one can still argue that it's her right to risk it, even if it goes against Larry's wishes. However, it's not just her life on the line but the lives of everyone in the room. Lilly does not have the absolute right to determine when Larry can no longer be saved when the lives of others are also at stake.
After biting Lilly, Larry's movements would ensure that Kenny wouldn't be able to hit him with the salt lick. The only reason something as cumbersome as that was a valid option was because Larry wasn't moving. Therefore, the remaining people in the room would be without any weapon to fight the Walker. Plus, Lilly could become a walker herself at any time, which makes it two walkers against everyone else in the room.
We have seen numerous fights against the undead and one theme that continually plays out is that in a fight, a human can only win if they have a weapon. When they are unarmed, the human will die. They are trapped in a small room, with no weapon. Larry is a massive person. In this situation, there is only one outcome, and it does not favor the living.
So, while regrettable, killing Larry is a moral action because it makes sure that Lilly is not risking her life, and the lives of everyone else in the room, for a chance to be able to resuscitate her father.
While I tried to save Larry, and openly condemned Kenny for making a call that wasn't his to make, I can still see basis of pragmatic logic that drove him to do what he did... I still called it murder, but his actions weren't driven by malice. (Though leaving Lee to die out of spite afterwards certainly didn't have much morally grey defense...)
Of course this all comes full circle when it's his own family putting the group in danger, and Kenny's unable to follow through on what he forced Lilly to endure.
Moral argument: It is the most moral option to focus on keeping people alive, rather then risking lives on someone that is already dead. Lil… morely was recklessly risking her life in trying to save Larry. By making sure Larry can't "get back up", you ensure that Lily, and everyone else in the room, stays alive.
Larry wasn't unconscious. If he was simply knocked out, no one would have tried to kill him. He wasn't breathing, he had no pulse. He was D.E.A.D., DEAD.
That said, by doing CPR and all that stuff, it's possible to bring the person back to life. This, however, does not take away from the fact that the person was dead for a short amount of time. To say he was simply unconscious truly shows a terrible bias which does not reflect reality.
That said, since he had died only moments earlier, it's quite possible to bring him back to life. Normally, this would be encouraged and you would never be so callous as to say "the man is dead, so i… [view original content]
Lotta self-righteousness in this thread.
Far as I'm concerned, Kenny was right for killing Larry because it was pragmatic AND Larry was g… morearbage.
How many of you Larry-defenders were pissed when Kenny was abusing and beating a crippled boy within an inch of his life? Not many, I bet.
Cussing and making little snide remarks about a character you don't like suffering is not "trolling." It's trying to be a "badass" by lacking any understanding of a situation. In other words, a child that just learned how to cuss.
Moral argument: It is the most moral option to focus on keeping people alive, rather then risking lives on someone that is already dead. Lil… morely was recklessly risking her life in trying to save Larry. By making sure Larry can't "get back up", you ensure that Lily, and everyone else in the room, stays alive.
Larry wasn't unconscious. If he was simply knocked out, no one would have tried to kill him. He wasn't breathing, he had no pulse. He was D.E.A.D., DEAD.
That said, by doing CPR and all that stuff, it's possible to bring the person back to life. This, however, does not take away from the fact that the person was dead for a short amount of time. To say he was simply unconscious truly shows a terrible bias which does not reflect reality.
That said, since he had died only moments earlier, it's quite possible to bring him back to life. Normally, this would be encouraged and you would never be so callous as to say "the man is dead, so i… [view original content]
Those that keep saying Larry was gonna turn, need to remember that those that turn become hella pale during the process. All Kenny had to do was hold the saltlick above Larry's head, and wait for a signal from Lee IF he actually turned.
Those that keep saying Larry was gonna turn, need to remember that those that turn become hella pale during the process. All Kenny had to do was hold the saltlick above Larry's head, and wait for a signal from Lee IF he actually turned.
Clementine, the same little girl everyone here seems to "love" so much was mentally scarred by Kenny's actions. And Lilly was coated in her father's brains. And then Kenny starts bitching at Lee for not helping tear away a woman from her dad as his face is crushed by an even bigger asshole?
They probably were, but had Kenny not do what I proposed, because that goes against Kenny's characterization in that he's a man who doesn't think/plan things thru.
Then they shouldn't have wrote it if they wanted their bases covered.
Cause otherwise people could construe Kenny's action as him wanting Larry dead cause of the potential "threat" he posed to his family. That's how I see it, and why not? He continues to flake when Lee is attacked and I didn't see Kenny wanting to help his family then. No, a traumatized woman that just witnessed her father's face flattened a foot away from her still coated in her dad's brain chunks lent more of a hand then Kenny. Someone supposedly hell bent on saving his family. So, you see, there's too many inconsistencies in Kenny's actions for it to just be him wanting to rescue his family.
In defense of people turning pale: every other person that has turned thus far has suffered a substantial amount of blood loss, which can explain the discoloration. David gets his leg cut off, Mark gets both of his legs cut off, Brenda and Nick get bitten in the neck/jugular, Natasha gets shot straight through the chest/heart, and Brie gets completely torn open
All Kenny had to do was hold the saltlick above Larry's head, and drop it when it was obvious he turned.
People keep forgetting that those that turn become VERY pale. Larry was still normal looking.
No. Too heavy, too big, too slow. This isn't a hammer or a gun that you can use instantly. This is a big, heavy, cumbersome, salt lick that normally is useless for any kind of fight. It's one thing to bash a person's head in when they can't move, another to do it once they start moving.
To do what you said, you'd have to have the salt lick in position to strike at a moments notice. You need momentum for a strike like that. That means holding it high and your arms get tired quick doing that.
I'm also not sure about this becoming pale argument.
-First off, it assumes that every person that becomes a zombie becomes pale and can only move after the fact, rather then the skin becoming pale after the zombie starts moving or simultaneously. Keep in mind again, that the window of safety is extremely small because SOMEONE has their face right in biting range.
-Secondly, you assume that Kenny would know that little fact, if he doesn't know it at the time of the episode, then you can hardly blame him for not waiting for the correct moment. Since they didn't even know that you didn't have to be bit to become a zombie, it's extremely unlikely that they would know this information. I question that this is an absolute rule though. Especially since, as Deltino mentioned, there was no blood loss with this death.
-Thirdly, you assume Kenny could get a good view of Larry's skin with Lilly covering his view of Larry's face. The only good area Kenny, or anyone else, would be able to make out are Larry's hands. The hands are an extremity and likely to be the last place to "whiten". If you focus on the hands then you are not aiming at the head, so that causes a delay before you can strike and I have no idea how big a window you have for this, if any. Even having someone do the watching and giving the warning instead is a bit of a delay. Plus, there is the question of when is the right time? What if the person watching hesitates too long because they are unsure if the skin really is becoming pale until it's too late?
-Fourthly, you ignore that Lilly is completely and utterly irrational right now. Do you really think she would be fine with Kenny holding a giant thing that can bash her dad's head in at any time? If Kenny is being rash, then you must also understand that Lilly wants to save her father NO. MATTER. WHAT. She is in no condition to stop what she is doing. She would have kept trying until she succeeded or Larry turned. There is no good time to hit Larry with the salt lick. She would have been angry unless she was certain Larry had already turned, and by that point, it's rather too late.
All Kenny had to do was hold the saltlick above Larry's head, and drop it when it was obvious he turned.
People keep forgetting that those that turn become VERY pale. Larry was still normal looking.
Lotta self-righteousness in this thread.
Far as I'm concerned, Kenny was right for killing Larry because it was pragmatic AND Larry was g… morearbage.
How many of you Larry-defenders were pissed when Kenny was abusing and beating a crippled boy within an inch of his life? Not many, I bet.
I kind of feel like they were keeping that in mind, every time someone was about to turn, they were pale, every single person so far that became zombified was pale. In Season 1, Episode 2, David turned pale right before reanimation. In Season 1, Episode 3, Duck was turning pale through the process of death and reanimation. In Season 1 Episode 5 Lee was turning pale during the process of death and reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 2, Pete was turning pale in the process of death and reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 4, Sarita became pale right before reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 5, Rebecca was turning pale during the process of death and reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 5, Natasha became pale right before reanimation. Considering that every time before someone has successfully or almost turned, they became grey first, I'd say that it would be a low chance that they forgot to do so, otherwise they might've done it in two separate cases, with Larry and with Alvin. However, Larry had unused dialogue for Season 1, Episode 2, that had him saying words before death to Lilly, so the chances are that Larry was alive, also taking into consideration, Larry takes a breath after Lee successfully compresses his chest.
A lot of people suggest having Kenny simply stand by, waiting for a "signal" to drop the salt-lick. I'm doubting if it would be that simple. With that being said, I'm going to play the devil's advocate again.
First off, it would depend on the exact "signal" you're waiting for. If we mean that you continue to do CPR for the next 2 minutes or so, then decide that he's gone, then that could work, but that's arguably dependent on exactly how the reanimation process works. If reanimation irrevocably occurs upon clinical death of a person (ie. the heart stopping, even if it's only momentary), then that means there's the possibility that the zombification process could have already begun inside his body, rendering the CPR effort pointless.
If we're talking about waiting for a sure-fire sign of reanimation, it's a huge gamble, and you'd only have once chance to do it right. Walkers tend to spring right back up at the nearest living object to them, although there tends to be a small "waking" period where they first open their eyes and what such. However, that lasts no longer than a second. Provided you have enough force to ensure that Larry's head is crushed with your swing, you'd need to perfectly time the dropping of the salt-lick before he springs up. If you miss, Lilly is as good as dead, and assuming Larry doesn't continue to munch on her, will likely lunge at you next.
Secondly, there's also a high chance that due to the way Larry immediately loses consciousness, he was actually experiencing cardiac arrest (which itself is very likely, given that Larry suffers from ischemic heart disease), rather than another run-of-the-mill heart attack like the one he had in the drugstore. If that's the case, and the above theory is true, he's essentially dead already. Furthermore, if he did indeed suffer cardiac arrest, there's next to no chance of him surviving on CPR alone. Even if you did manage to stabilize him solely via CPR, it'd only be a temporary solution. He wouldn't be able to move on his own in this condition, which would prove a challenge for getting him out of the dairy alive, let alone being able treat him once you get to relative safety.
Of course, most of this is hypothetical. Still, it's interesting to consider.
Comments
This doesn't matter because Kenny didn't believe he was unconscious
You just explained why Kenny couldn't know if Larry was unconscious
Yes, he jumped the gun and decided Larry was dead. And simple logic follow that if Larry was dead he'd turn into a zombie.
The only* possible *mistake Kenny made here was immediately assuming Larry was dead instead of unconscious. And that's more on Kenny panicking under time pressure (if Larry is dead, then he only has a few seconds before Larry comes back, overpowers them all, goes on a rampage, kills the rest of the group) and not being a medical professional.
You say this as if Kenny did so many worse things after this. IMO this was the worst thing Kenny ever did, and it was more an act of stupidity than anything else.
The smart move would've been waiting until Larry was actually dead and Lilly had been given a chance to say goodbye. But Kenny clearly didn't consider that possibility. (And it annoyed me that we weren't given the chance to suggest this course of action, but it's understandable from a gaming perspective. They wanted this event to happen no matter what and weren't going to give us a real chance to stop it.)
But that's Kenny's biggest flaw. He doesn't really ever stop to think about things before acting. He immediately comes up with an idea of what he thinks the best course of action is and then is very stubborn in sticking with his initial plan.
And that would've made him an awful leader. But it didn't make him a bad person that was beyond redemption.
And without a doubt I think Kenny totally earned his redemption in both games, in my playthrough at least. (First by sacrificing himself in trying to save someone he hated in Ben, and then in sacrificing his own happiness in order to do what's best for Clem and AJ)
Larry wasn't moving or breathing.
What sign of death should Kenny have waited for? Larry coming back as a zombie?
There was no reason for him not to give Lee a few seconds to make sure Larry was dead, and give Lilly the chance to say goodbye, and then allow for both of them to get a safe distance away from him. If Larry showed even the slightest sign of turning that would've been different. But he hadn't yet.
In my playthrough I was busy giving CPR to Larry while Lilly was crying over her dad's body. Clearly that was not the right time to drop a huge weight on his head.
You mean like when earlier in the chapter a guy who died from blood loss took only a few seconds to come back as a walker?
Again, referring back to that point in the story, the "slightest" sign of turning the guy exhibited was grabbing for Katja.
And that guy was scrawny. Zombie Larry wouldn't be as weak.
Still ... at the very least you give people enough time to get a safe distance away.
Katja new that guy was dead, she just didn't know the dead were a threat unless they were bit.
Lee was still giving Larry CPR in my game, so clearly he didn't think he was dead yet.
Really? So they know the exact number of seconds it takes for a dead person to become a Walker? If Larry was dead all along, they timed how long he stayed dead?
If Larry was dead, how sure could Kenny be that in the time it takes for Lily to cry over his body, for Lee to pull her off, for them to move Clementine and Lily to a corner, that Larry won't start eating people?
That doesn't matter.
All Kenny saw was Katja declaring him dead, then a few seconds later the corpse attacked Katja.
So all Kenny (and anyone else) knows is
Person Dies -> A few seconds pass -> Corpse reanimates and starts attacking people
The slightest sign Kenny knows is that the body will get up and start eating people.
This matters how? People give CPR to dead people in real life. Kenny made the choice to not take the chance, and given what he saw earlier and how Larry wasn't breathing or moving he made a reasonable choice to crush Larry's skull before what Kenny thought was his corpse to come back at any second and start attacking people.
I can't believe you're still trying to keep this argument going. Kenny was dumb enough to view it as a black and white decision between killing Larry that very second and letting him turn into a zombie that kills everyone. Doesn't mean everyone else has to view it in the same way.
The way he went about it was extremely stupid and rash, IMO. If you feel differently that's your right. But I have no desire to debate it any further. I've already explained why I feel he handled the situation very poorly.
At the very least he could've waited for Lee to say he was dead and then told Lee to take Lilly a safe distance away. This may have only been like 10 seconds away from happening. It wasn't likely to make a big difference in the matter, but it'd make a huge difference in Lilly's eyes. You don't need to smash her father's face in inches away from her unless there's some immediate threat to someone's safety beyond "Gee, maybe he's already dead, and maybe he may turn within the next few seconds, and then maybe I won't have enough time to lift this block up and stop him"
(Gah ... I actually allowed myself to be dragged into continuing this. I'm done now, I promise. Anything more will just be reshashing stuff that I've already said.)
Right the situation where on one hand Larry is alive the other hand he's dead and in a matter of seconds will come back as a walker will eat them all is not black and white.
Extremely stupid? No.
Extremely rash? Yes.
But given that corpses come back within a few seconds as walkers. He needs to make an extremely rash decision. He has doesn't have the luxury of time to decide.
It takes less than 10 seconds for a walker to get up grab someone, and chomp down on them. And this is Larry who's bigger and stronger than your average person. Which means he'll be even stronger than an average walker.
In a matter of seconds the walker got up and grabbed Katja. It took 1 person barely holding that walker off, and it even had a handicap of not being able to walk, and another person with an axe to put that walker down.
What exactly could they have done in that room? Kenny dropping a block on an even stronger walker while Lee is under it?
It looks like Confirmation Bias.
Look at that face. I bet she's thinking "I'm glad Kenny saved me from my father. Studies show that a low percentage of heart attack victims survive. Kenny only dropped a large heavy object on my father's face and I can still taste his brains. Small price to pay for such a swell guy with a heart of gold that put his priorities above us... I mean..."
No grieving, cause she knew that her father was dead (obviously).
Your "edge" is gonna cut someone... one day.
Look at the bright side, at least he had a big meal before he died.
Heeey, you're useing that picture I made for you a while ago. kool.
Yup! Thank you kindly for it. Now I don't look like some generic noob to this website.
It looks like a flag.
People who have heart attacks don't just die instantly...
Not me, I actually like the majority of the characters, including Kenny but that doesn't make me a person who defends every unjustifiable action they make.
Difference between episode 1 and 2 is that Larry hasn't even harmed a hair on anyone's head because like it or not they're all in it together now, Larry even starts thinking of the group, he tries to justify he isn't being racist, you know some people just dislike one another and it has nothing to do with their skin and yeah Larry punched Lee to the floor and nearly got him killed after getting medicines for him but he barely knew the guy while Kenny refuses to stop the train, locking Lee out of the control room and causing everyone to get killed by a zombified Duck after everything Lee had done for the guy and his family. Larry only canonly gets Lee almost killed one time, while Kenny gets Lee uncanonly killed multiple times.
Saving her from a living person who was the only one who helped her keep her sanity, makes perfect sense.
It looks like a collection of red and yellow pixels, arranged in rectangular arrangement.
It was fucked up, and that's the end of it. If he wanted to keep the group safe, he could've held the saltlick in his hands, standing over Larry while they were giving him CPR, only dropping it if he turned into a walker. He didn't "help" the group by doing what he did, he drove a very useful member of the group to insanity. As much as I like Kenny, he is a dangerous person.
Why do you care about Larry so much he was an old Asshole
Moral argument: It is the most moral option to focus on keeping people alive, rather then risking lives on someone that is already dead. Lilly was recklessly risking her life in trying to save Larry. By making sure Larry can't "get back up", you ensure that Lily, and everyone else in the room, stays alive.
Larry wasn't unconscious. If he was simply knocked out, no one would have tried to kill him. He wasn't breathing, he had no pulse. He was D.E.A.D., DEAD.
That said, by doing CPR and all that stuff, it's possible to bring the person back to life. This, however, does not take away from the fact that the person was dead for a short amount of time. To say he was simply unconscious truly shows a terrible bias which does not reflect reality.
That said, since he had died only moments earlier, it's quite possible to bring him back to life. Normally, this would be encouraged and you would never be so callous as to say "the man is dead, so it's okay to crush his head in with a salt lick". However, this is not a normal situation and Lilly was risking her life, and the lives of everyone else in the room, by doing CPR.
In this episode, we learn for the first time that you don't have to be bitten by a walker to turn undead. Anyone that dies will become one. We also know that the amount of time it takes for this change to happen can be under a minute. Not always, but sometimes. Lilly, distraught with grief was no longer caring about anything but doing CPR for as long as it took to bring Larry back.
Doing CPR though, is the absolute most risky thing that can be done in this situation. If Larry turned, he would immediately start biting and Lilly lips are pressed against him. She would get bit. There is absolutely no way anyone could protect her in time if Larry turned. One can look at Larry taking a breath at the end of the resuscitation and say that it's wrong because we know it would work. However, that is hindsight. You can't take the result, which is ambiguous anyway, and retroactively justify the actions taken. You have to look at it from the beginning.
Lets say that there is a 50% chance of Larry being saved or remaining dead. Larry would certainly want to be saved but if he was told that there was a 50% chance of him killing his daughter instead, do you think he would want Lilly to take that kind of risk? Especially since, without his pills, he's crippled himself anyway. I'm sure he would want to be killed rather then risk his daughter to become a zombie.
If it was just Lilly's life, one can still argue that it's her right to risk it, even if it goes against Larry's wishes. However, it's not just her life on the line but the lives of everyone in the room. Lilly does not have the absolute right to determine when Larry can no longer be saved when the lives of others are also at stake.
After biting Lilly, Larry's movements would ensure that Kenny wouldn't be able to hit him with the salt lick. The only reason something as cumbersome as that was a valid option was because Larry wasn't moving. Therefore, the remaining people in the room would be without any weapon to fight the Walker. Plus, Lilly could become a walker herself at any time, which makes it two walkers against everyone else in the room.
We have seen numerous fights against the undead and one theme that continually plays out is that in a fight, a human can only win if they have a weapon. When they are unarmed, the human will die. They are trapped in a small room, with no weapon. Larry is a massive person. In this situation, there is only one outcome, and it does not favor the living.
So, while regrettable, killing Larry is a moral action because it makes sure that Lilly is not risking her life, and the lives of everyone else in the room, for a chance to be able to resuscitate her father.
Fuck you Larry Eat up.
While I tried to save Larry, and openly condemned Kenny for making a call that wasn't his to make, I can still see basis of pragmatic logic that drove him to do what he did... I still called it murder, but his actions weren't driven by malice. (Though leaving Lee to die out of spite afterwards certainly didn't have much morally grey defense...)
Of course this all comes full circle when it's his own family putting the group in danger, and Kenny's unable to follow through on what he forced Lilly to endure.
Perfectly said.
Larry was an abrasive dick, and Arvo was a bandit, but I tried to stop what I perceived to be unnecessary violence in both scenarios.
Cute.
Cussing and making little snide remarks about a character you don't like suffering is not "trolling." It's trying to be a "badass" by lacking any understanding of a situation. In other words, a child that just learned how to cuss.
All Kenny had to do was hold the saltlick above Larry's head, and drop it when it was obvious he turned.
People keep forgetting that those that turn become VERY pale. Larry was still normal looking.
Those that keep saying Larry was gonna turn, need to remember that those that turn become hella pale during the process. All Kenny had to do was hold the saltlick above Larry's head, and wait for a signal from Lee IF he actually turned.
I highly, highly doubt Telltale was keeping such a thing in mind when writing that scene.
Who said I did?
Clementine, the same little girl everyone here seems to "love" so much was mentally scarred by Kenny's actions. And Lilly was coated in her father's brains. And then Kenny starts bitching at Lee for not helping tear away a woman from her dad as his face is crushed by an even bigger asshole?
They probably were, but had Kenny not do what I proposed, because that goes against Kenny's characterization in that he's a man who doesn't think/plan things thru.
Then they shouldn't have wrote it if they wanted their bases covered.
Cause otherwise people could construe Kenny's action as him wanting Larry dead cause of the potential "threat" he posed to his family. That's how I see it, and why not? He continues to flake when Lee is attacked and I didn't see Kenny wanting to help his family then. No, a traumatized woman that just witnessed her father's face flattened a foot away from her still coated in her dad's brain chunks lent more of a hand then Kenny. Someone supposedly hell bent on saving his family. So, you see, there's too many inconsistencies in Kenny's actions for it to just be him wanting to rescue his family.
In defense of people turning pale: every other person that has turned thus far has suffered a substantial amount of blood loss, which can explain the discoloration. David gets his leg cut off, Mark gets both of his legs cut off, Brenda and Nick get bitten in the neck/jugular, Natasha gets shot straight through the chest/heart, and Brie gets completely torn open
No. Too heavy, too big, too slow. This isn't a hammer or a gun that you can use instantly. This is a big, heavy, cumbersome, salt lick that normally is useless for any kind of fight. It's one thing to bash a person's head in when they can't move, another to do it once they start moving.
To do what you said, you'd have to have the salt lick in position to strike at a moments notice. You need momentum for a strike like that. That means holding it high and your arms get tired quick doing that.
I'm also not sure about this becoming pale argument.
-First off, it assumes that every person that becomes a zombie becomes pale and can only move after the fact, rather then the skin becoming pale after the zombie starts moving or simultaneously. Keep in mind again, that the window of safety is extremely small because SOMEONE has their face right in biting range.
-Secondly, you assume that Kenny would know that little fact, if he doesn't know it at the time of the episode, then you can hardly blame him for not waiting for the correct moment. Since they didn't even know that you didn't have to be bit to become a zombie, it's extremely unlikely that they would know this information. I question that this is an absolute rule though. Especially since, as Deltino mentioned, there was no blood loss with this death.
-Thirdly, you assume Kenny could get a good view of Larry's skin with Lilly covering his view of Larry's face. The only good area Kenny, or anyone else, would be able to make out are Larry's hands. The hands are an extremity and likely to be the last place to "whiten". If you focus on the hands then you are not aiming at the head, so that causes a delay before you can strike and I have no idea how big a window you have for this, if any. Even having someone do the watching and giving the warning instead is a bit of a delay. Plus, there is the question of when is the right time? What if the person watching hesitates too long because they are unsure if the skin really is becoming pale until it's too late?
-Fourthly, you ignore that Lilly is completely and utterly irrational right now. Do you really think she would be fine with Kenny holding a giant thing that can bash her dad's head in at any time? If Kenny is being rash, then you must also understand that Lilly wants to save her father NO. MATTER. WHAT. She is in no condition to stop what she is doing. She would have kept trying until she succeeded or Larry turned. There is no good time to hit Larry with the salt lick. She would have been angry unless she was certain Larry had already turned, and by that point, it's rather too late.
I may have defended Larry and I did defend Arvo, but that's my first instinct, defend the defenceless.
I kind of feel like they were keeping that in mind, every time someone was about to turn, they were pale, every single person so far that became zombified was pale. In Season 1, Episode 2, David turned pale right before reanimation. In Season 1, Episode 3, Duck was turning pale through the process of death and reanimation. In Season 1 Episode 5 Lee was turning pale during the process of death and reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 2, Pete was turning pale in the process of death and reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 4, Sarita became pale right before reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 5, Rebecca was turning pale during the process of death and reanimation. In Season 2, Episode 5, Natasha became pale right before reanimation. Considering that every time before someone has successfully or almost turned, they became grey first, I'd say that it would be a low chance that they forgot to do so, otherwise they might've done it in two separate cases, with Larry and with Alvin. However, Larry had unused dialogue for Season 1, Episode 2, that had him saying words before death to Lilly, so the chances are that Larry was alive, also taking into consideration, Larry takes a breath after Lee successfully compresses his chest.
A lot of people suggest having Kenny simply stand by, waiting for a "signal" to drop the salt-lick. I'm doubting if it would be that simple. With that being said, I'm going to play the devil's advocate again.
First off, it would depend on the exact "signal" you're waiting for. If we mean that you continue to do CPR for the next 2 minutes or so, then decide that he's gone, then that could work, but that's arguably dependent on exactly how the reanimation process works. If reanimation irrevocably occurs upon clinical death of a person (ie. the heart stopping, even if it's only momentary), then that means there's the possibility that the zombification process could have already begun inside his body, rendering the CPR effort pointless.
If we're talking about waiting for a sure-fire sign of reanimation, it's a huge gamble, and you'd only have once chance to do it right. Walkers tend to spring right back up at the nearest living object to them, although there tends to be a small "waking" period where they first open their eyes and what such. However, that lasts no longer than a second. Provided you have enough force to ensure that Larry's head is crushed with your swing, you'd need to perfectly time the dropping of the salt-lick before he springs up. If you miss, Lilly is as good as dead, and assuming Larry doesn't continue to munch on her, will likely lunge at you next.
Secondly, there's also a high chance that due to the way Larry immediately loses consciousness, he was actually experiencing cardiac arrest (which itself is very likely, given that Larry suffers from ischemic heart disease), rather than another run-of-the-mill heart attack like the one he had in the drugstore. If that's the case, and the above theory is true, he's essentially dead already. Furthermore, if he did indeed suffer cardiac arrest, there's next to no chance of him surviving on CPR alone. Even if you did manage to stabilize him solely via CPR, it'd only be a temporary solution. He wouldn't be able to move on his own in this condition, which would prove a challenge for getting him out of the dairy alive, let alone being able treat him once you get to relative safety.
Of course, most of this is hypothetical. Still, it's interesting to consider.