Why do people keep making stuff up about Jane?
“Jane clearly only cares about herself!”
“That fight was completely Jane's fault! Poor, innocent Kenny!”
“Jane manipulated Luke by having sex with him!”
Like, lol wut?
For the most part, it seems like people stick to the facts (or at least something resembling it) whenever discussing Kenny, whether they like him or hate him. I mean, no one ever says anything crazy like “Kenny was planning to eat AJ for dinner!”
But when it comes to Jane in particular, I’ve seen so many people saying things about her that are so blatantly false that I wonder if they’re talking about a Jane from some other video game. Seriously, why? This is coming from someone who somewhat supports Jane, but there’re so many legitimate reasons to dislike Jane, such as how fucking stupid she is, or how she was so quick to give up on Sarah. I just don’t understand why people feel the need to make shit up to demonize her. You guys should write for tabloids or something :P
Comments
Jane this! Kenny that! It's a far too-heated debate on these forums, Everyone has their own opinion so not everyone sees things the same way as others, some people like Kenny more, some people like Jane more and some people don't care, I think people should just learn to respect others opinions
The Saltlick has spoken
Yeah, that sounds cool and all. But I still don't understand why people have to blatantly lie in order to support their Jane hate. Seriously, it's not even necessary.
I hate Jane because she antagonizes someone i consider a friend, and her overall personality doesn't appeal to me in any way
kenny fans
Because their hatred for her character makes them exaggerate everything.
Not really lying, just them being flamers.
True enough, but there's a difference between exaggerating and outright lying.
I wouldn't say anyone is blatantly lying. People (such as myself) legitimately believe most of those things to be true.
Maybe not intentionally, but some arguments against Jane frankly just aren't true. I'm fine with people hating Jane for legit reasons such as her antagonizing Kenny, but I think saying "Jane cares about literally no one but herself" is a bit much.
Jane doesn't seem to care about anyone who she thinks isn't going to make it or thinks is a threat, Kenny and Sarah IE. I know she doesn't care about just herself, but that doesn't mean she isn't selfish, she admits Clem and Luke are the only reasons she returned, and also therefor the only people she's shown to care for in the group. Though i do like that she has the decency to apologize to Kenny after they stop the car before the fight.
Well they're not really lying, just came up with a outrageous conclusion.
Like this example you used. Jane "made an offer" to Luke, and their conclusion is that she manipulated him instead of just offering sex.
It doesn't really seem like lying to me, just people being blinded by their hatred so they take everything out of proportion.
You can't really unintentionally lie though..
I think saying that she cares about literally no one but herself is a little inaccurate as she clearly cares about Clem.. but even that relationship carries selfishness to it, as she isn't really interested in what Clem wants, to the extent that she manipulates her. Overall I do think Jane is a very selfish character.
Personally, I like Kenny more so I wouldn't say I "lie" about Jane but as Belan said I do feel some things are true but as stated, everyone has their own opinion (Except when it comes to Saltlicks, we all know they're awesome) well jk about the Saltlick thing
Well, spreading misinformation then.
Meh, you could say the same about Kenny, really.
Clem: "Let's go back to Howe's"
Kenny: "Stop filling her head with bullshit Jane!"
Poor choice of words on my part. My problem's with the blatant misinformation more than anything.
Kenny doesn't manipulate her. He is completely open and honest with her, and only wants the best for her. This is shown by his willingness to separate from Clementine (who he dearly cares about) so that she can enter Wellington. He can also be convinced to let Clem go her own way after he kills Jane if Clem convinces him that he is a danger to her. Jane on the other hand, can openly admit that her own plan was stupid and dangerous, but will still beg Clem to stay with her because she "needs her" (As in Jane needs Clementine... I can't write right now for some reason lol). Kenny really isn't selfish at all when it comes to taking care of Clem. Jane's relationship with her does carry some selfishness to it, which is just one of the reasons why people are so ready to label her as very selfish.
Anyway though, this topic is about Jane, and not Kenny, right? Just trying to say that people who don't care for Jane do have valid reasoning. Most of the examples you gave seem like valid criticism to me.
We could argue circles about this forever, really. Kenny was more concerned with beating Arvo than saving Clem from hypothermia. Jane will let Clem leave her if she so chooses, etc.
Also, I completely agree that people have valid reason not to care for Jane. My issue is that people sometimes use blatant misinformation to support their opinion. This is especially annoying because it's not necessary.
Jane is a shitty enough person on her own that you don't need to over-exaggerated or make stuff up about how "Jane only cares about herself" (clearly untrue), "Jane made Kenny think she murdered AJ" (actually, Kenny jumped to that conclusion despite the lack of evidence), or "Jane manipulated Luke by having sex with him" (because Luke's not a good looking guy she just wanted to fuck or anything, right?).
Wouldn't you find it really annoying if people justified Kenny hate by saying things that are completely false? Like "Kenny only cares about Clem & AJ to replace Duck", or something?
For rational people, facts = facts.
For irrational people, feelings = facts.
Remember all the completely baseless, over the top hate Sarah got for no logical reason at all? Same deal as with Jane.
I'm not going to touch on your Kenny points as I really don't want to get into another Kenny debate. It was beaten to death a long time ago, and is kind of an aside to your topic here.
The things that you're listing here in regards to Jane are all valid thoughts though, with the exception of her manipulating Luke; that is pretty much nothing more than complete speculation. I've honestly never seen anyone push this idea though, and I'm guessing that it's pretty rare.
Again, it may be a bit much to say that Jane only cares about herself, but arguing against that is kind of splitting hairs as the general idea is that she is very selfish, which is a more than reasonable stance to have. Maybe she doesn't literally only care about herself, but the point is that she is generally driven by self interest. Jane did make Kenny think she murdered AJ. That was what her whole plan at the end of the game was based upon. I agree that Kenny jumped to conclusions, but that doesn't really have anything to do with Jane not manipulating him. Without Kenny jumping to those conclusions, her plan would have completely fallen apart. She had no interest in convincing Kenny
Anyway, the main point I have here is that most people who dislike Jane tend to have valid reasons for doing so, and there generally isn't a whole lot of invalid arguments/ misinformation going around.
They repeat what Kenny says/gets angry at.
That's genuinely the only reason someone could conclude that she only cares about herself. In each of the three episodes she proves that to be bollocks.
I'm past reasoning with those specific people at this point. It's not even a majority of Kenny fans, just spiteful ignoramuses that think their edginess is a viable platform for reasonable discussion and would rather cuss out the opposing side than come up with even pseudo-tangible points to back their claims.
Obviously Jane isn't selfish, she never "manipulated" consensual sex out of Luke, she wasn't trying to ruin Clementine's life by taking her back to Howes, and she certainly wasn't making up her sister's tragic death.
[Removed]
Yeah, didn't mean to start a Kenny debate.
That's why she helped people she barely knew at no personal gain multiple times, right? Like when she saved everyone from the Russians including Kenny? Or when she was the last to escape the trailer to make sure Clem (& optionally Sarah) to get out first? Or when she went back to help Rebecca in the herd? Or when she actually showed sympathy for Bonnie and Mike after they ran away despite their involvement in Clem being shot? Or when she chose to let the strangers into Howe's if Clem is unable to make the decision, despite initially being against the idea? Yes, she does have shades of selfishness, but she shows many instances of humanity that I feel people simply ignore. Saying she is a "very selfish character" is overblowing it in my opinion.
My problem with this issue is more that all the blame is pushed on Jane and none on Kenny. Yes, Jane was plotting against Kenny, but that doesn't change the fact that Kenny, and Kenny alone, jumped to the conclusion that Jane was a baby murderer.
Here, I'll reword that bit. "The Kenny/Jane fight was completely Jane's fault."
I specialize in details, so misinformation of any kind urks me. Just try to correct it if it's really important.
It's pretty interesting how many of the arguments against Jane that I have a problem with sound strikingly similar to Kenny's rant in the truck.
"You care about nobody but yerself!"
"Yer fillin Clem's head with bullshit!"
"Runnin' away again! In the end, only care about yerself."
You forget, dear Elistra, that Sarah was an unstable, subhuman piece of trash who didn’t deserve to live; she manipulated Carver into killing Reggie, she used her psychic powers to redirect that bullet to kill her own father, and she committed the unforgivable crime of mourning for a dead loved one. What a bitch.
Oh relax, I think Flog's only referring to people who specifically claim Jane "only cares about herself", which you agreed was bs.
I believe that Jane coming back and helping the group was really just for Clementine (she may even admit as much, I honestly can't remember). She did help Rebecca in the herd, but she had to be pleaded in order to do so, and even then seemed a little put out about it. As for the other things you listed, you have a point, and those do show some unselfish characteristics. Like I was saying before though, I don't think anyone actually believes that she doesn't have a hint of unselfishness in her. That would obviously be completely ridiculous to say about almost anyone in the game really. Saying that she "only cares about herself" is an exaggeration, but the point is that she is in general, a selfish person. It's all good if you personally think it's over blowing it to call her very selfish, but there is definitely valid reasoning for the opposite opinion (all I've been trying to say here).
I suppose it technically wasn't all Jane's fault, considering she actually needed Kenny to fall into the trap... but that's hardly redeeming in my opinion.
My god, you should see some of the comments on Youtube.
I'm relaxed
. I'm only saying that we're capable of coming to our own conclusions. I agreed with you that the idea of Jane only caring about herself is a bit inaccurate, but I also said that the general idea behind that message is valid. Anyone arguing against the idea is seriously splitting hairs and taking it wayyyy too literally.
Lol, if only there were more Jane haters like you on Youtube. It'd be a far more reasonable place.
I'm giving reasons why people specifically 'make stuff up' about Jane.
Plenty of Kenny fans, such as yourself, give good reasons for disliking her. Others , unfortunately, just repeat what he says mindlessly, just as they did with Luke after episode 2.
this is inaccuate...
this statement would imply that moral judgements or ethical/normative claims are irrational. which is clearly false. rationality has to do with how reasonable (or logically valid) a propositional statement or argument is....
I don't even know why it would matter to these people either way... someone doesn't have to be 100% selfish in order to be considered selfish. It's pretty pointless to argue over.
Apologies for the reply. My line of thinking is just that what you guys consider various posters to be "making up" is actually valid reasoning, or at the very least an attempt at valid reasoning. We don't really agree on what arguments are valid or not valid here, so I was just kind of assuming you were lumping Kenny fans together in regards to them not being able to think for themselves, and that seemed a little unfair. Again, apologies for the assumption and the sarcastic response.
It's fine, dw.
I like how this argument is still active.
I think I'm gonna be 80 and people will still be arguing about this.
While I weep over Luke in the corner.
No, it implies that ignoring the facts and just making stuff up in order to justify one's own negative feels is neurotic as hell... and it is.
How can a terrified, unarmed girl (Sarah) be logically blamed for "making" a psychopath push a one-armed man off a roof?
How is freaking out when your own father is killed right in front of you so incomprehensible?
Since when did a young man (Luke) who likely hasn't gotten much lately need to be somehow conned or manipulated into wanting to have sex with a willing and well-shaped female?
How does someone who is normally a loner but comes back to the group because she's concerned about Clem only care about herself?
Ugh.
Although... the idea that feelings = facts for some people stems from them having bad morals is something which deserves serious thought. Hrm. See, in psychology, the usual thought is that such things stem from unresolved personal issues and poor mental health, rather than bad morals. Lol.
I hate jane cause she did only care for herself i did not like arvo but when jane threteen arvo in episode 4 jane went over the line same with when jane lied to prove a point at the end of episode 5.Jane did not care cause if she cared she would not have kept getting kenny mad she never wanted alvain or clem or kenny around and kenny took care of clementine like she was his kid.