About SmallJon Umber and Rickon Stark and Co.
The Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning.
We've all seen LittleJon Umber
and even though he seemed to have joined the boltons .
Heres the reason why i think he's still loyal to the starks and is even doing this for their return in power.
He did not kneel nor swore any alliegance to the boltons
In the books a wedding is planned (Ramsay and Jeyne Pool pretending to be arya stark )
aand all the major houses are invited . And some stuff happens ..
In the show since sansa disapeard
Smalljon might have learned somehow that she was gone ,
So he then prepared a plan , and that plan was to present Osha and Rickon Stark to Lord Bolton
To prove that he was not lying he severed a direwolf 's head and passed it as Rickon 's wolf
how did he found a direwolf's head ? 'Cause they are very rare ...
direwolves can be found north of the wall and the umbers is one of the closest houses to the wall ,So they could've easily found a way to cross without going near
castle black . And hunt one .Beside that , Not only wildings are fleeing south of the wall , and that direwolf from season one might not have been the only who have passed the border . That could even be a hunt trophy from a previous hunt and they poured some blood to make it look real . (N..No , im not in denial , you are ! )
In the show :
i think they will mix osha's character with jeyne pool's character .
since she was with rickon , i think ramsay will have the idea to pass her as her sister and ramsay will wed Osha , passing her as Arya . Thanks to Smalljon giveing him the idea , hence the wedding .
A wedding will be held in winterfell again where houses such as The manderlys ,Cerwyns , Umbers ,Glovers ,and karstark will be invited
That whole plan was to warn the other houses that were still a stark heir , I think they introduced Rickon Stark to the boltons to warn the other houses that they still have a liege lord whose name is stark
But why didn't they stealthly warned the other houses ?exposed him as he was presumed dead And directly put him in danger in front of the mad man
because they couldn't be sure of the other's houses loyalty ,even if they tried , how long before the boltons eventually finds out and assiege the Umber's Castle , This way , everyone knew that Rickon Stark was still alive and possibly Bran who were presumed dead since season 3
but why didn't they just hide him and didnt tell anyone and kept him safe ?
Simply because Roose Bolton died and ramsay is his heir
Heir that is considered like a mad dog and can be manipulated contrary to
Roose .
Also , the fact that they showed us directly the wolf's head and did not held him captive is just for shock value ,if the wolf was still alive , i'm sure we would all think umber's scheming , now that they showed a wolf's head (possibly Shaggy) , people will have their doubts and really think the umbers are with the boltons .
Comments
The books and show have nothing in common anymore: Stannis alive, Davos looking for Rickon, Doran playing masterminds, Roose still living in winterfell, and so on.. Smalljon is dead in books; the Umber who rescues Theon is Mors Umber and is with twenty good men (no joke). Basically Jeyne is Sansa in show.
Ramsay making a wedding with Osha would be also politic-killing.
Osha is like 30 years old. Arya is supposed to be 12/13 at best. It would be ridiculous for Ramsay to try and pass her off as Arya.
Small-Jon is a cunt.
I love how someone finally managed to make Ramsay feel uncomfortable
My very hopeful theory is that the show will continue to set the Umbers up as traitors until the battle of the bastards then they will do the Braveheart thing and charge up to the northern houses and start hugging and shaking hands. Plus the wolf's head was to small to be shaggydog compare it to grey wind's in 3x10
I'm sorry to say that this is what it seems to be. The Umbers are traitors. All leaks indicate that and you can see them fighting side-by-side with the Boltons at the Battle of the Bastards in the trailers.
Fuck Smalljon, Greatjon was cool.
I am letting my cynical and darker side out for a moment.
With all these traitors, betrayals, scheming, death, suffering, war and even more betrayal happening in Westeros, it really makes you just want to let the White Walkers destroy the entire continent and world. What is the point to keep fighting when the whole world is just so hopeless and cruel?
Bah screw the show...I prefer the books...the entire Karstark and Whiteharbor parts were way more interesting...plus Dorne has been totally mishandled. This shows that the writers needed to stick to the books because in the vast majority of things they changed...the change has been one screwed decision after another.
Hell yeah!
#TeamWightWalker
How are they going to stick to the books when they have dozens of characters and only 10 hours a season to work with? People dont think about the practicality of these things enough.
I am still holding out a small hope that it is some kind of ruse, but I'm not sure.
i would have loved that shit to had happened.. last season. also i dont think that ramsey can even get married again, since he "consumed" their marriage. also why do another Jeyne Pool scenerio? they did Sansa on that, and i dont think i can handle another one of my favorite character getting raped.
but it would be a good opportunity for that pink letter.
They could have changed the format.
Osha could pass for mid twenties and show Arya has to be around 15 or 16. Either way that is a big gap still.
Dorne wasn't exactly super happy fun time in the books either lol
It's "consummated"
I don't even understand where have people got the idea about Osha marrying Ramsay, but it's still intriguing what awaits her, they probably wouldn't bother the actress to appear in one episode to be killed gruesomely in the next episode.
ep4 upd.: Whoopsie-Daisy
If you mean the 10 hour format, that would mean dropping the production quality - and it still wouldn't change the problem with having too many characters for a live action series.
Really the only way to satisfy those who want to see the exact same story would be to do an animated series with very long seasons. I'd definitely watch that though, if only to see how well it would work.
Yeah, the goat-fooker;)
you mean some kind of Roose ..
Arya was 9 at the beginning of the show was she not? Or did they change it?
Maybe im confusing the book and show ages, but either way, i feel like the age difference between Arya and Osha is Waaay to large to try and pass one off as the other.
Nah, nah, nah, Smalljon isn't the goatfocker, he fights against the goatfockers
Nah, but there is a noose.
They did it for Doran and Trysdane (sp?).
They were there in the last season to the end of it, if I remember correctly Osha and Rickon got lost for us in season 4, right?
I think so though it feels even longer;
You don't say. Feels like if they showed us a newly filmed flashback about some Robb Stark's victory feast, with "For the King in the North!" shouts and all. I'm so nostalgic I can't even feel nostalgic.
If shaggy was resurrected and could talk ( and sing ) with men. He'd say that .
Little Prince came in and caught me corpseless
Creeping with the bastard's next door
Picture this ! We were both afflicted ,hanging on Smalljon's hook
How could i forget that i had
to protect Rickon's life
All this time I was standing there , Smalljon never took his eyes of him ..
I dont know if people are still talking about this but :
Rickon might be really held captive .but i i'm sure that it's not the case .
Umbers who are considered to be one of the most loyal house to the starks would betray and causing the destruction of The whole dinasty just for some wildlings , you kidding me right ? Smalljon Umber would dishonor thousands and thousands of years of his house loyal services to the starks of winterfell .....Really ? It doesnt make any sense , I can get the boltons , they already tried a revolt before and were never really close to the starks even before ..., I also can understand the Karstarks ,Karsarks and boltons are neighbors , and the killing of their lord also explains theirmutiny .
But the Umbers ....The Umbers really , The Umbers who's sigil house is a Giant Breaking free of its chains.I'm sorry but it doesnt make any sense .
You could show me a picutre of Smalljon kissing Ramsay and i still wopuldn't belive that they're traitors , but if indeed Umbers .The Greatjon Umber who called FIRST Robb stark "The king in the north" are traitors .TThen i'll just call it bad writing ,
Even If the umbers were really worried about jon snow's wildings , why would they go to ramsey to seek help aka the worst piece of shit of the seven kingdoms rather than going directly to jon snow since castle black is closer than Winterfell anyway and ask what he's planning to do with them .AS REAL STARK LOYALISTS WOULD DO RATHER THAN GIVING THE SUPPOSED LAST MALE STARK WHO HAS A CLAIM TO THE NORTH .
'It's as logic as saying that arthur dayne would give off the last targaryen child and his honor tosave his own skin ...
Does it makes sense to you that arthur Dayne would give off the last targaryen child to save his life?
well it's the exact same scenario with The Umbers ..
I really hope i'm not wrong tho ,because that really does not make sense to me , sespecially coming from Smalljon Umber who in the books deid trying to protect Robb stark during the red wedding .
And i know we see their flag next to bolton's flag in the trailer, but if you remember that scene in the trailer with the Big bolton shields and they block tormund , well ..Perhaps that's where the umbers would intervene , by shoving their swords at their backs . and striking a fatal blow to the the bolton army ...
I hope that this is just a scheme to take back Winterfell from the Boltons. I have always wondered why Smalljon didn't went to Roose Bolton when he was still alive. The Wildlings arrived at Episode 9 in Season 5 and there must have been enough time for Smalljon to go to the Boltons for help. Instead, he went when Ramsay took over.
And considering what happened to Dorne, I don't have such a high hope for that this will happen...
Tbh, the time between 509 and 603 in the North storyline has not really been that big, or at least I haven't got that impression. Enough time for the information of the Wildlings to get to Last Hearth (via scouts I assume, or just word of mouth?), but not much more. Smalljon was also pretty vocal about his negative opinion on Roose. Not that he likes Ramsay, but I assume he sees him as easier person to work with (or to fool if this indeed is a con instead of real betrayal).
Not sure what Dorne has to do with this, it's a completely different storyline, both in size and structure. And even if Umbers are for real in Ramsay's team, I can assure you the Bastardbowl storyline will be amazing.
I was mostly just referring to how the Dorne storyline was treated. I am just afraid that the writers of the show have also changed the Northern conspiracy.
Ah, of course they have, the whole situation in the North is so different in the show that it simply can't be the exact same
Though I wouldn't be surprised if we get a version of it, even if Umbers aren't part of it - Manderlys have been namedropped once or twice this season (also there was a casting call for a fat Northern lord that will have a great speech), and Ramsay believes them to be on his side. I think there lies the best possibility we have for any kind of Northern conspiracy plot in the show.
Sure hope we'll get some wyman manderly , his speech to Davos was awesome .
No way. The Umbers are either traitors or stupid. With 2 seasons (& reportedly 13-14 episodes after this one), I find it hardly unlikely that by the battle of the bastards Rickon is not flayed and one of the reported people displayed. Regardless if the Umbers had the issues with the wildings, they technically could have gotten a few other houses without Ramsay's help to handle them. He went to Ramsay and even knowing that Ramsay killed Roose, Walda and the baby, he still presented Rickon to this psycho.
Idk if the show intended this, but it does seem that the north and Sunspear stories have millenial thinking behind them.
Like which "few other houses"? Aside from Umbers and Boltons the Karstarks are the only other house that could have problems with the Wildlings - and they are allied with Boltons. The North story is leagues better than Dorne, and makes sense, you are just cranky that they don't follow the magical loyalty in blood trope with Umbers. That kind of loyalty to a practically dead house that cannot support you (for example with this Wildling problem) in any way anymore would be just unrealistic. And it's not like Smalljon is fully submitting himself to this psycho Ramsay, he just uses Rickon to create a temporary alliance with Boltons. If this alliance would ever manage to crush the Wildlings and Jon Snow, Smalljon would probably still not kneel to Ramsay (which could lead to Bolton vs Umber war).
Why would I be upset or cranky? If there are no other houses in proximity of the Umbers other than the Karstarks and Boltons than okay. My only thing is if it's a ruse to align themselves with Ramsay just to fight with the wildings then fine but we have to assume the Umbers don't care what happens to Rickon because it is extremely risky to leave him with Ramsay.
Many houses in the North have lost their armies in the War of the Five Kings. House Boltons and Karstarks are the few who got their armies intact. With the former betraying House Stark and the latter leaving when Robb beheaded their lord. So even if there were other houses in close proximity to House Umber, I doubt that they could have been much help. So House Bolton are the only house in the North with large enough army to solve the Wildling problem.
I assume Smalljon never had any sympathy for Rickon, for all we know he might not have even liked Robb (in the show). It was his father who had a deep respect for Robb (but only after Robb proved himself to be a strong leader).
No on ever said it was. It's the fact that the logic of ShowEllaria/ShowSandsnakes COMPLETELY contradicts that of their book counterparts. Not to mention the show logic itself is quite stupid:
Oberyn Martell: I seek justice for my sister, my niece, and my nephew.
Oberyn Martell: "In Dorne, we don't hurt little girls."
Oberyn Martell:DIES
Ellaria/Sandsnakes: Our father/lover died in a totally legal trial by combat. Therefore, we must avenge him by killing his only remaining brother and nephew and an innocent little girl. Oberyn would be so proud.
Ramsey totally consumed their marriage.