Clementine is to blame for Lee's death.
Mrwalto69
Banned
Before I get started, I want to point out that this is a serious discussion and not a troll.
Right, now that's out the way.......
Arguably the most emotional scene in the walking dead series, is lee and clementines final goodbye. But if you really think about it and put biased opinions aside, clementine was the reason for Lee's death.
We say goodbye to Molly, and we go to clementine. Clementine wants to find her parents, Lee tells her that it's most likely not going to end well for her or the group (pretty much implying her parents are dead, which is true). Clementine, obviously breaks down. Lee takes a nap, wakes up, Clementine is gone.
Lee goes outside to look for her, and ends up getting bit by a walker.
Now, Lee was bit because he let his guard down trying to find clementine. Clementine believed the deciet lies of a a stranger she had never met before. Now. A lot of people would say "she's only 9 years old, you can't blame a little girl". Well, yes I can. Clementine was warned by christa and lee about the guy, she also claimed she trusted Lee and was very fond of him. Now depending on the play through. Lee can treat her like a father, be the best he can be, yet. She will still betray his beliefs and relationship by believing someone who she never even met. You could even make a case, that she caused the deaths of Ben, and Kenny before we found out he was alive. By her negligence, the group was forced to go looking for her, which resulted in Ben (if saved in episode 4) dying, Kenny being separated and the group being broken up. I think, because she is a little girl, and one of two main characters and arguably the most popular character in the game, she gets away with it. And people label her a victim when she is not. Had she listened to people she claimed she trusted and liked, she wouldn't of been taken, and Lee wouldn't of got bitten and other characters wouldn't of died.
Its like beauty and the beast quote.
It wasn't the walkers that killed lee, it was clementine who Killed lee.
Lee was a strong intelligent man but his love and devotion for clementine was his downfall and he paid for it with his life at her stupidity.
Feel free to comment what you want, as I said this is an open discussion so if you want to speak civil, that's fine, if you want to abuse me, that's fine to, just stating my opinion and opening to discussion.
Comments
Yeah she is to blame which is why she blames herself a lot during season 2
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I am just too much of a nice guy to blame her for this kind of thing. Or, well, to blame anyone for anything, really. Can't bring myself to blame Ben for everything he caused, can't blame Sam for everything she caused, can't blame basically anyone else that's screwed up in this series. But like always, that's just me. I'm a bleeding heart, flower-picking paragon, and proud of it. Mostly.
Also going off that same belief system, I don't think you can blame someone for someone's death if they made the conscious decision to help. For example, blaming Ben for Kenny's 'death' in episode 5, which quite a few people have done. I don't think it's fair to hold Ben accountable when Kenny made the decision to risk his life to help him. Helping Ben meant that he understood the risk of what he was doing (for once in his life, amirite?). Similarly, practically everyone that went after Clementine went after Clementine not out of a moral obligation, but because they consciously chose to do so. So I don't find it fair to pin deaths on her when they made the choice and took the risks to go after her. I mean, there was no one holding Omid, Christa, Ben or Kenny's hand and making them go after her. But I think that's more my own personal philosophy when it comes to the concept of blame. It's probably no surprise that I have some uh... interesting opinions and thoughts on things.
And as much as I hate to say it, I'm pretty sure Lee's decision to go after her was out of selflessness, too. No matter how you play Lee, he cares about Clementine, and he's more than willing to do what it takes to save her, and that's just the way it is. Why do you think going after her or not isn't a choice? Because if it was, you'd be deconstructing the story they're trying to tell here. Now the disposition of the individual player may change, but Lee's overall disposition does not. Even if you're as blunt as a rock to Clementine at every possible turn, she stills likes him, and he still likes her. It causes a disconnect or rift between Lee and the player, but considering that your opinion is something of an outlier, it's understandable that the devs didn't make the biggest effort to cater to such a minority. That might sound harsh or belittling, but we all know one of the sad facts of life is that you can't please everyone. No matter what you do, someone somewhere will not like it, will disagree with it, will hate it, or whatever. The important thing is to make sure whatever product you're delivering is satisfying for the grand majority of your target audience. If 95% of people like something, and 5% don't, it's in your best interests to continue doing what you're doing for the 95% margin, rather than trying to cater to the 5% margin. Catering to unpopular opinion is high risk, dubious reward. If you try to make the 5% happy, you might make an even bigger percent unhappy in the process. So it's best to just take the plunge and piss the 5% off rather than risk pissing even more people off, you know what I mean?
Now, I will admit this much, yes, Clementine did play a role in Lee's death. But do I personally think she's the blame for it? No. This entire argument comes down to how people personally assign blame. It's a conflict of interest, for lack of any better term. You have your own opinions and judgement scale on the matter, other people have theirs, and both are equally valid in their own rights. 'Course, I guess you could say that for about every discussion in existence, because differing thoughts and opinions are what make discussions possible. It's not much fun when everyone's just agreeing with each other, now is it?
But yeah, that's my spiel. For now. Unless I think of something else.
I can see where you're coming from and everything you said is true, but I can understand why Clem would, in a sense, "betray" Lee and listen to The Stranger. She wanted to hold onto the belief that her parents were still alive and unlike Lee, The Stranger claimed they were and took advantage of the situation. She simply wanted to see them again and couldn't face that they were dead, not to mention she was a naïve 9 year old who was manipulated by a man desperate for revenge. So, no, I can't actually blame Clementine for Lee's death.
If anyone is truly to blame for Lee's death, it's the man who kidnapped Clem, causing Lee to be bitten- The Stranger.
The problem with this logic is that you can always take it a step back to find another action that directly led to the action in question and easily put the blame on that instead. In other words, we can just as easily say that the entire mess would not have happened to begin with if Lee or Kenny had not taken the Stranger's supplies and given him a reason to hold a grudge and tail them. So either Kenny is to blame for Lee's death if Lee disagreed with taking the food, or Lee caused his own eventual downfall.
Makes just as much sense as holding Clementine accountable for Kenny's fate (Lee's, I can understand). Maybe you can make a case for Ben, but Kenny made his own unnecessary sacrifice in that instance. Nothing to do with trying to help Clementine. Different story for the Christa scenario, except in that case, you could blame Christa for jumping down there in the first place. But even then, you could blame Kenny for knocking the walkie talkie down there to begin with. But even then, you could blame Lee for lollygagging at the hole with the walkie talkie in his hand. But then you could blame Kenny again for making the dumbshit suggestion of letting the Stranger know they were coming. But then you could blame Lee for even entertaining the suggestion when he should have just slapped Kenny upside the head and told him how stupid that was. But then, it all goes back to blaming Clementine for them being out there to begin with. But then that goes back to Lee and Kenny taking the food and- head explodes
So, is Clem to blame for Lee's death? Partly, sure. But there are a lot more variables to this whole thing then just Clem's actions.
Yeah, Clementine's fault for sure imo. There's a good chance that Lee would still be alive for a long time if she didn't get kidnapped. I think she was just easily led and geniunely belived that the guy knew where her parents were. I don't think she done it to betray Lee or that it was anything personal on him either.
It's not quite the same for me. There is an argument for Lee or Kenny taking the Stranger's stuff being for the good of the group. If they didn't then there is a possibility of the group starving to death, or people dying whilst going out there looking for supplies. What Clementine done was in no way good for the group in any way. sneaking out looking for her dead parents on the word of someone she doesn't know from anywhere. That wasn't doing anyone any good.
Yep, she is to blame
This.
No, it's all your fault. Keep an eye on your freaking kid. Jeez!
I disagree that Clementine was the cause of Lee's death. He made the choice to go looking for her and he knew the risk that was involved. Clementine being only a child was manipulated which in this case is an easy thing to do, she did not want to face the fact that her parents were dead so she was doing everything she could to hold out hope in the chances of them being alive and I really cannot blame her for that. Lee also knew the risk involved when the group stole supplies from the strangers car and Clementine even warned them of what could happen. Kenny's supposed death had nothing to do with Clementine, he chose to sacrifice himself in order to save Ben, and I think this is do to the fact Ben was trying to redeem himself because he felt he was to blame for Duck and Kajja's death and Kenny was always treating him like garbage through the entire season so I think in a sense Kenny was also trying to redeem himself.
It wasn't doing anyone any bad either. Yes, that ended up being the case, but it's not like Clementine sold out the group in some way or went out knowing that it would bring anyone to harm. For all we know, she didn't want to leave the group at all, given that she was obviously kidnapped and taken against her will right outside the house. Though granted, it's impossible to know how exactly it played out or whether she would have snuck further away if given the chance.
In much the same way, taking the supplies was done with no ill intent towards the group, but was done with full acceptance of the possibility that they could be dooming someone else, and ended up directly causing problems for the group nevertheless. If intentions count for something, I consider them largely equal, considering Clementine had nothing but pure intentions to be with her parents again which were manipulated by the real culprit who meant harm. In the end, it's all just one big series of largely good intentions gone bad beyond the characters' complete control.
Are you fucking serious?
I think part of it is Clementine's fault, yes, but calling her stupid or refusing to take any blame off of her just for being 9 (barely) is taking the blame too far. She IS a child, and as a child her parents were very important to her. The last thing Lee had done was disappoint her, knowing that he would not be able to find them. So when a stranger, who she had already been talking to and had no reason to find ill will with other than Lee and Christa warning her, promised he knew where her parents were, she took the chance. It wasn't the right choice, but she was taken advantage of as a child desperate for her parents, so when it comes down to it, I do blame the Stramger more. Her age did matter here. If she were in her teens, she may not have made the same mistake.
That said, in Season 2, I do play Clementine with an extreme amount of survivor's guilt. While I don't personally place full blame on her for the deaths of Lee, Ben, "Kenny", or Omid, I think she would perceive it this way. I also think it added a great extra layer to Clementine's determinate character. I actually wish it was more incorporated into the game, giving the player a chance to continue to let Clem experience survivor's guilt or come to a point that some things are out of her control. She couldn't have known Lee would be bitten looking for her, she couldn't have known Ben would have stepped on a loose balcony, she couldn't have known a woman would steal her gun in the time it took her to find a water bottle.
Telltale is to blame for Lee's death. The walkie talking is sitting next to some suspicious looking garbage and you specifically tell Lee to look first and what does he do? He defies your command and launches his hand towards the walkie talkie as though he has never encountered a walker before.
Except that he can check the garbage first, but still ends up getting bitten in the process
It has been a long time, but I recall if you tell him to look he grabs. Either way the point is, Telltale wanted Lee to die at the end, if it wasn't that way it would have just been another way.
Ah, yes I looked it up and was a bit different than I recall. You have to option to look at the garbage, but not the option to grab it, yet looking somehow equals grab this suspicious piece of cardboard?
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Clementine is partly to blame, remember that it was The Stranger who convinced her to sneak out and get to him, you can put all the blame on the deceived but allot of the blame still goes to the deceiver.
You brought up a good point, no one forced Lee to look after Clementine. It's interesting seeing all these perspectives.
Technically yes she is partly to blame. She did disobey Lee and speak to the Stranger. I think she can be forgiven for being naive as she's only 8 at the time and distraught at the loss of her parents. She had no malicious intent as she was being manipulated. It was The Stranger who had lured Lee to being bit by a walker and to the Marsh House
I have to agree with you that she definitely shares a lot of the blame for him dying since she chose to ignore both Lee and Christa's advice not to trust the guy who she hadn't even met, and continued to secretly talk to him
The Stranger is also to blame, as he was the one who convinced her he had her parents and convinced her to leave the house
The only problem with that is that even if lee chooses not to steal, the stranger says that he was only coming after the others who stole, but then he changes his mind with what his seen lee bring clementine into. You can be the best person to clementine, and the stranger will still find you at fault for things you have no control over I.e going to the diary farm. He was deranged after losing his family. Still the supplies fuelled the fire but clementine going outside to him is what did it. I'm not saying had she stayed inside. Everything would've been fine, but had she did. All of that carnage wouldn't of happened.
In lees defence, he thought she wouldn't up and leave and believe the stranger, hence his reaction when he wakes up and she's not there. Also, he is truthful to her, he tells her that they need to look for their safety. Clementine could've woken him up and said a man outside knows where my parents are, but she chose to betray lee by doing what he said not to do.
Kenny did sacrifice himself but you have to look at what got him in that situation ? Clementine being taken from the group by the stranger.
She has more sense then most people who play the game.
Yes she shares some of the blame...just as she shares the blame for Omid's death. Come to think about it...every group she joins dies. If you are in the Zombie apocalypse and you see her...just move on.
Of course shes to blame. Indirectly of course. She says in All That Remains as one of her dialogue choices "sometimes people die because of me", and then again at the lodge she can tell Kenny "i got him killed". She definitely feels responsible for his death.
Everyone's time expires one way or another, if she didn't inadvertently lead Lee to his series of unfortunate events that eventually led to his death, someone else would've.
I'm a fan of the ideology often explored in literature and film most commonly referred to as "fate," but are more specifically known as "determinism." It's the notion that once a story, or a life is started, that characters fate is sealed. Sometimes it is used as an outlier for positive conclusions, but recently in entertainment it has been shown in a more negative respect.
Lee's story at times seems to follow such a strict narrative path, often he himself casually throws caution to the wind showing disregard for his own safety to reach his ultimate demise. Essentially what I'm saying is he was dead the moment he entered the story. Regardless whether he was bitten cause he reached down like an idiot to pick up Clementine's *walkie that obviously showed signs of being in an unsafe area where being bit was a high possibility or he was gunned down by John Nobody, his determination was sealed from the jump.
At least that's how I see it.
You do realize that Lee can check the area, if the player chooses to. He still gets bitten. As a other user said, Telltale wanted him to die.
Like below said, you can choose to check the area, makes no difference.
If I remember rightly, telltale said they had their ending done before anything else in the season was developed. So yes, Lee was always meant to die at the end. But Clementine was the main source of why he died. There were other reasons, i.e stealing from the wagon and having the stranger come after the group, but Clementine was the main source of the reason.
I forgave Ben, only because I felt sorry for him. I guess it was because when I was on the forums back in the days when season 1 was coming out. It was always people abusing Ben, saying how bad of a character he is etc. I felt sorry for him, and I knew in the game he was trying to make a mends and he was until Clementine took off and caused the group to go after her. Clementine, I never cared for because it was always about her, never about the others as much as her. That's how the game is based around, doesn't mean I have to like it.
You have to look at the main source. Why were Kenny and Ben in the situation? Ben fell from the balcony because the bolts came loose, and why were they there ? Because of Clementine. Some of the group can stay behind, depending on how you treated them, but the game makes you go after her. If there was a choice to leave her, I would've trust me. But we cant because the game needed her for the next season.
Nah nah, I get what you mean. But I can say to you, that you can be the nicest most trustworthy Lee you can to Clementine, and she will still go behind your back and betray you and believe the stranger. So really, weather you be the best Lee or the meanest, Clementine will still go against you and believe someone she's never met before. The majority of people liked Clementine in season one because her role was perfect for her. When she became the player character in season two, that changed. Yes she still has A LOT of fans, but a lot of people have turned off wanting her as the player character again, And that goes to show, that even she can have a negative feedback. Obviously season two's flaws weren't just her but it goes to show how much more negative feedback season two got towards season one.
All I can on the matter is the sitatuion. They were in it because of Clementine, like you said, that's how the game pans out, weather you want it to or not. If she had not go outside to the stranger, Lee wouldn't of got bitten out the front, Ben wouldn't of died, Kenny wouldn't of been separated like Christa and Omid. That sounds about fair right?
Have to agree with this. If we want to get really technical, it was extremely stupid of Lee to grab the piece of cardboard, so Lee's stupidity is what got him killed. Telltale could have done it in a way where it was really an unpreventable accident during a big walker attack, but instead went with the have the character be a careless idiot route.
Also after watching the video again, it is a pretty bad scene. It is very much like Sarah getting caught under the concrete despite being on top of the platform. In this instance, the walker just pops up out of nowhere. It would have to be sitting there in the fetal position in just the right spot in order to be hidden there and how it got there in the first place I have no idea.
Then that just confirms what I had said then.
"Telltale wanted him to die." Exactly my point, all paths lead to the same demise, the journey doesn't matter in the end of the day cause his determination was set from the jump.
While I do kinda put some blame on Clem, I put most of it on Lee. At the very beginning of episode 4, we see that Lee had taken the walkie talkie from Clem once he discovered that Clem was talking to The Stranger. This is good parenting. But at the end of episode 4, when Clem is at her emotional worst (before Lee gets bitten and she sees her zombie parents, at least) because Lee just told her that they wouldn't be able to find her parents and Ben, her friend, could determinately be dead... Lee decides to put the walkie talkie down where Clem could easily see and take it and then he takes a nap? This is bad parenting. Like, really bad and ridiculously stupid for someone who is supposed to be an intelligent college professor. He didn't even take the batteries out, at least?
He could've (and should've) given the walkie talkie to Christa who was doing nothing of importance except for simply being by Omid's side in the bedroom. It's not like she had to use it at all, just keep it on her belt! She could still give her full attention to Omid and at that point Omid already took his medicine, so she doesn't even have the excuse that she's too worried that he'll die to look after a walkie talkie. If Clem tried to grab it from her, she would feel it being tugged at on her belt. I'm not saying Lee didn't deserve the nap, he just should've been actually smart about it.
And don't get me wrong, I love both Lee and (season 1) Clem, but Lee just isn't the shining paragon of amazing and perfect parenting that 99% of fans make him out to be. In my opinion, it's his own fault he died.
Well, if Lee hadn't been bitten maybe he wouldn't have found out that covering yourself with walkers' guts actually works.
GUYS LISTEN TO THIS PLEASE!
Look, all i want and i know all of you lot want this aswell, is to force telltale to bring lee back in season 3 because we have all been crying in the final goodbye with lee and clem, but they have not showed us where he got shot, yeh she is nine and she is kinda dopey, so think about it she could have missed the shot and TELLTALE if ur reading this BRING LEE BACK this is for you, you WILL and i mean WILL lose players of the walking dead if you dont bring back the people we loved such as lee, luke, ben and other loved ones cuz it would be amazing if we had all the loved people we had in season three going against the world (Zombie World) as a group, tbh i think if u brought lee back for clementine as a GOOD zombie or gave him med so he could be better you would bring telltale as an even more popular game so just think about what your going to do in the coming seasons, and i swear to god if lee does not come back thats it, im done playing stupid fucking telltale, cuz whats the point playing if your not even enjoying what character your playing,
please make telltale bring lee back and make them read this,
and if lee hadn't been bitten then he would still have Clem,
like what would u do if u was lee? stay with clem or fucking get bit and find out that walkers guts work to blend in
All of what you suggested would be bad storytelling. If you think the game sucks because you can't enjoy your favorite characters after they die then you are playing the wrong game. The Walking Dead isn't about wish fulfillment, it's about the sacrifices people make and what they make them for. Lee's story is great BECAUSE he died. He made the ultimate sacrifice to save a young life, and that redeems him from his past of taking a life.
Also this isn't Game of Thrones. People can't just be brought back from the dead or become good zombies. The Walking Dead follows strict rules grounded in some kind of reality. When people are dead they're dead. When people are zombies they're flesh-craving monsters with no sense of right or wrong. The only way to make a zombie "good" is to cut off it's jaw and arms, and even then that only keeps it from attacking you. It still doesn't have any morals.
Telltale confirmed Lee is dead. Enough said!!!!!!!!
Shut up. Please, just shut up.
Sorry for my english
I don't think that Clementine is blame for Lee's death.
Their meeting was a coincidence. As well as Lee bite. This "vile creature" with a walkie-talkie likely Clementine said that he knows where her parents and thus earned her trust. Maybe he said that her parents were with him, so she trusted him.
I don't want to say anything about Ben who stole the supplies! And even more so to say that Clementina blame for his death.
Lee's death is the same pure accident as his bite. Clementine only indirectly to blame for the bite. As in followed Lee's death.