It would've been nice to be able to give AJ a different name, I mean it's a cool name - Alvin Junior - and a good tribute to the father Alvin. I just didn't like how it felt as though Kenny chose the name for him out of guilt for leaving Alvin behind or not giving himself up to keep him alive. I recall lots of people hoping for it to be a choice.
Probably because she was basically burdened with a kid that wasn't her responsibility and because he's everyone's biggest suspect for Clem l… moreosing her finger.
I myself don't hate the kid, but I do hate the fact that we never got a chance to name him, even if it could've been a fake choice.
Even badass characters sometimes require hand-holding and development. Although allot of people seem to only care about completely independent characters with good action scenes but at least that's only some people.
I agree, especially about 'thinking outside the narrative'. Just using logic to attempt to explain or undermine aspects of a fictional reality seems like a pointless thing to do.
Isn't everything a plot device in a story?
Thinking outside the narrative ruins the experience imo, AJ wasn't there to be a plot device, AJ was there because Rebecca had a baby.
Like Marijaa pointed out, he is a baby. But if you're looking for the usefulness of having a baby, you'd be surprised at the kindness strangers could show towards you if you have an infant, the world's future, in your arms.
Exactly. LEE had a choice in looking after the baby. Clem didn't. During my playthrough as Clem she didn't like babies. Come Episode 5 she … morewas gaga for AJ.
Because he was only there to cause trouble between Jane and Kenny and to make that final scene work at the pit stop. That's why he's a plot device. He was around only to cause a fight between Jane and Kenny.
Like Marijaa pointed out, he is a baby. But if you're looking for the usefulness of having a baby, you'd be surprised at the kindness strangers could show towards you if you have an infant, the world's future, in your arms.
Because people get pregnant in real life as well and the only 'supernatural' we have in game is walkers. Humans stay humans. And humans get pregnant. It had to do with Rebecca's story with Carver too.
Newborns have no personalities so of course he isn't as popular as Lee or Kenny. Not everything/everybody has to have some divine purpose. N… moreot even in video games.
You're right newborns have no personalities. Then why the hell is he even in the game? The claim that he has no purpose but to instigate the fight between Kenny and Jane is true, I mean what other purpose does he have? I don't hate AJ, but I also acknowledge that he's there for literally no reason.
I agree, she's not a completely blank slate character controlled by fans. She still has values imparted in her by her parents, Lee, Christa, Omid, and everyone else who has influenced her. Ive seen nothing to indicate her being capable of abandoning a newborn baby to death even if some fans would wish that.
I'm surprised by what seems like the general attitude towards AJ as well. I don't think it's in Clementine's character to let AJ die, even if we have the choice of dialogue and action over her, she's still very much an individual character.
But symbolism is important for something like TWD, where up until that point, many innocence were killed and lives were ruined by the events from the past four episodes.
You can find symbols (not smart ones necessarily) if you want to. AJ can symbolize hope. Or helplessness. Or innocence. So yeah, I just made up his purpose.
It was pushed to the way-side in favor of Kenny and Luke's, Kenny and Carvers, or Kenny and Jane's feuds.
They all had their own interpretations of the baby, what he meant to them in the apocalypse. Jane does start the talk abour raising a baby with Rebecca but later on all characters focus on their own, "selfish" goals and ambitions. We've seen children coping with the apocalypse but the baby is something new in this game.
And then loss is pushed to the wayside to a "touching" scene, except a slaughtered child lay less than fifteen feet away and I'm supposed to take what away from it?
Sarah's death was horrible, I believe we all can agree on that. It was nice seeing baby alive and well, with the flaw of everyone ignoring poor teenager just being eaten alive. Every day some people die and some are just born. An intense contrast, isn't it?
Well, she was
She did have her own personality already shaped and her motives pretty clear. We obviously disagree on this one.
Newborns have no personalities so of course he isn't as popular as Lee or Kenny
Yes, neither did the baby from the video I showed. B… moreut, you know what was a nice little touch? The baby was crying through otherwise a very silent and stilted unit of soldiers admiring what was up until that point, an impossibility for the last 18 years.
Babies don't have to have personality to get cold-hearted people like me to hang their mouths open in awe or gleefully laugh at the first appearance of it in hope of the future in a world that's completely false.
Not everything/everybody has to have some divine purpose. Not even in video games.
I never said they had to. But symbolism is important for something like TWD, where up until that point, many innocence were killed and lives were ruined by the events from the past four episodes.
If some random baby was left alone in the last episode and we had to take care of them "accidental… [view original content]
People don't just magically get pregnant in real life, it's a thing that happens and is planned, which AJ definitely was, how insane must you be to willingly birth a baby in a world this fucked up, a world with no hope, a world where he has no chance of living a normal life? It doesn't hold up with your "this is real life" argument, because in real life if you put people into this situation they would obviously never even wish for a baby. He is obviously a plot device, a plot device used in Rebecca's and Carver's story as well as Kenny and Jane's feud.
Then why the hell is he even in the game?
Because people get pregnant in real life as well and the only 'supernatural' we have in game is walkers. Humans stay humans. And humans get pregnant. It had to do with Rebecca's story with Carver too.
Sometimes that we overlook the fact that, even when we are making decisions, those decisions are there because Clementine thought about them in the first place.
For example, when Carver is beating Kenny with the walkie-talkie, Clementine has the chance to either go help him herself, because he is somebody who she knew in the past, and pretending to do Pete knows what, or to help Carlos restrain Sarita, since Carlos is asking Clem directly for help, and she might feel obliged to comply given that he is an adult.
That is two choices, but there are other choices that we weren't given—comfort Sarah, ask Mike for help, shout for Tavia to intervene, break one of the background vases to call attention, or even curl into a ball on the ground.
I agree, she's not a completely blank slate character controlled by fans. She still has values imparted in her by her parents, Lee, Christa,… more Omid, and everyone else who has influenced her. Ive seen nothing to indicate her being capable of abandoning a newborn baby to death even if some fans would wish that.
We can see everyone as liabilites but we shouldn't because that's a primitive way of thinking.
and we want to keep it alive for what reason? Because it's a baby and it deserves a chance?
Why did people keep kids and babies alive during the wars? Because they are, guess what, HUMAN BEINGS! They deserve a chance as much as everybody else.
If we can see Sarah and Nick as liabilities, then why would we treat a baby any differently?
And can we also remember that AJ might have … morebeen born through Carvers side? Like this could be a mini Ramsay Snow right here, and we want to keep it alive for what reason? Because it's a baby and it deserves a chance?
It'd be more humane to kill the baby... Like how comic book Judith got handled but by my bullet instead. That would've made a crazy ending. If we had to mirror the Lee ending for a baby instead of a bitten adult. And I would've shot AJ just the same.
I don't see babies as any special form of life yet. I see all life as precious (loopholes, am I right)
So talking about killing a baby is… more just as bad as talking about killing any human being in my opinion. I don't think it should be any different.
Granted I can understand how some of us took it far in our descriptions of what we'd do, myself included. But I'm thinking in the context of the story. like I'm actually in a zombie apocalypse, there's no baby formula around, barely any food, and zombies breathin down my neck.
When I talk about the story, I immerse myself. I don't find it right to kill AJ in any other circumstance. It'd be like how Cersei almost killed Tommen in season two when Stannis attacked Kings Landing. It's not about what's actually right or wrong, but it's me being overprotective and selfish.
Is it that sociopathic when it's in a story? Or does it just sound bad when you see it in real life? I feel like it just s… [view original content]
That, that actually makes a lot of sense, at least in the alone and go with Kenny endings, where you are presumably out in the open with no direction. Going by ethics, I believe that it would be ambiguous more than it'd be wrong. However, I don't think that there is a reason to do so in the Howe's and Wellington endings.
Oh wait, but they're going to merge the five routes at some point. Yeah, that brings some trouble onto the table.
Anyway, I do understand and partly share your point. It would have to be something quick though.
Yeah I know the feeling
Also @BetterToSleep I completely agree that it would be ethically wrong to leave AJ. And I think they were confus… moreing ethics with morals. There is a definite ethical compass but not an absolute moral compass.
Also, yeah it's definitely fucked up to leave AJ like you leave Norma. I'd feel bad about leaving a kid behind regardless, but I'd probably feel worse looking into that kids eyes everyday of the ZA knowing he has little to no chance.
So I'd go the Cersei route and try to end the suffering before it begins (When she tried to give Tommen Milk of the Poppy)
Since we have no idea whose child is AJ we can't be sure whether Rebecca planned actually having a child or it all happened because of Carver and their meetings.
He is obviously a plot device, a plot device used in Rebecca's and Carver's story as well as Kenny and Jane's feud.
He exists for plot, of course, so does every fiction character ever. Lee was a plot device for Clementine's story. The boat was a plot deivce. Chuck was a plot device.
People don't just magically get pregnant in real life, it's a thing that happens and is planned, which AJ definitely was, how insane must yo… moreu be to willingly birth a baby in a world this fucked up, a world with no hope, a world where he has no chance of living a normal life? It doesn't hold up with your "this is real life" argument, because in real life if you put people into this situation they would obviously never even wish for a baby. He is obviously a plot device, a plot device used in Rebecca's and Carver's story as well as Kenny and Jane's feud.
Although we have choices, the choices we can make are the choices Clementine presents for herself as BetterToSleep said, if she was a blank slate we would have the ability to say anything and do anything, dialogue and actions would not be restricted by her own perspective of the situation.
Plus, we only play as her for about a week in Season 2, hardly enough time to mold her into someone who dislikes babies in my opinion, especially when there's no options available for Clementine to show she dislikes babies(even if she doesn't hold AJ the first time, she does it anyway later on).
Basically, like all characters from games that pertain choices, the characters already have some established personality, otherwise how would the narrative work?
I agree, she's not a completely blank slate character controlled by fans. She still has values imparted in her by her parents, Lee, Christa,… more Omid, and everyone else who has influenced her. Ive seen nothing to indicate her being capable of abandoning a newborn baby to death even if some fans would wish that.
I don't have a problem, I just disagree with your perspective and as you have every right to have an opinion, I have every right to have one as well. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it.
Since we have no idea whose child is AJ we can't be sure whether Rebecca planned actually having a child or it all happened because of Carver and their meetings.
She was obviously happy at the thought of having a child, I think it would be a safe assumption he was planned. In the case he wasn't planned it would make even less sense, it'd be stupid as hell to even risk having a child in the apocalypse.
He exists for plot, of course, so does every fiction character ever. Lee was a plot device for Clementine's story. The boat was a plot deivce. Chuck was a plot device.
Lee was an actual character, not a bunch of pixels that sometimes lets out something similar to baby sounds.
it's a thing that happens and is planned
Since we have no idea whose child is AJ we can't be sure whether Rebecca planned actually h… moreaving a child or it all happened because of Carver and their meetings.
He is obviously a plot device, a plot device used in Rebecca's and Carver's story as well as Kenny and Jane's feud.
He exists for plot, of course, so does every fiction character ever. Lee was a plot device for Clementine's story. The boat was a plot deivce. Chuck was a plot device.
She was obviously happy at the thought of having a child, I think it would be a safe assumption he was planned. In the case he wasn't planned it would make even less sense, it'd be stupid as hell to even risk having a child in the apocalypse.
It had to do with Carver and I don't recall very well why did they have the relationship they had. We can't know for sure.
Lee was an actual character, not a bunch of pixels that sometimes lets out something similar to baby sounds.
Babies are still characters, with no real formed personality, of course. We are not playing as them (lmao) so there isn't a real reason why AJ shouldn't be in the game. It wasn't a stranger's baby that they made like ten minutes before Jane vs Kenny so it's all fine.
Since we have no idea whose child is AJ we can't be sure whether Rebecca planned actually having a child or it all happened because of Carve… morer and their meetings.
She was obviously happy at the thought of having a child, I think it would be a safe assumption he was planned. In the case he wasn't planned it would make even less sense, it'd be stupid as hell to even risk having a child in the apocalypse.
He exists for plot, of course, so does every fiction character ever. Lee was a plot device for Clementine's story. The boat was a plot deivce. Chuck was a plot device.
Lee was an actual character, not a bunch of pixels that sometimes lets out something similar to baby sounds.
She was obviously happy at the thought of having a child, I think it would be a safe assumption he was planned. In the case he wasn't planne… mored it would make even less sense, it'd be stupid as hell to even risk having a child in the apocalypse.
It had to do with Carver and I don't recall very well why did they have the relationship they had. We can't know for sure.
Lee was an actual character, not a bunch of pixels that sometimes lets out something similar to baby sounds.
Babies are still characters, with no real formed personality, of course. We are not playing as them (lmao) so there isn't a real reason why AJ shouldn't be in the game. It wasn't a stranger's baby that they made like ten minutes before Jane vs Kenny so it's all fine.
I talked to him and he has decided to read through some of this thread and will then decide how to proceed. He asked me what I wanted too, a… morend if no comments so far have been so out of line that the thread needs to be closed anyway, I have asked him to keep it open for now.
But I would ask everyone to calm down now and have a civil discussion, which I have admittedly also not done all the time in this thread. I also told InGen to close this thread if it only devolves into random insults and whining. All this of course with the thought in mind that he might close it anyway.
If we can see Sarah and Nick as liabilities
We can see everyone as liabilites but we shouldn't because that's a primitive way of thi… morenking.
and we want to keep it alive for what reason? Because it's a baby and it deserves a chance?
Why did people keep kids and babies alive during the wars? Because they are, guess what, HUMAN BEINGS! They deserve a chance as much as everybody else.
Oh well thats your opinion. In the comics she died thankfully. I hope she will die in the show at some point too. I mean it gotta be annoying to film scenes with a baby all the time from a production standpoint aswell.
Hi all! Firstly I'd like to say thank you TTG for continueing this story at all. And Clem rocks! Now then, Aj's plotline....how to explain it..one word...Drama! I feel like haters hate him because its a pretty bad time already! Walker,walkers everywhere. Now here's a baby for you to care, Let us sleep now if you dare, the brains,the brains they're everywhere! Poetry(such as it is) aside, TWD is drama! AJ creates that,ppl love to complain but its true. The game is'nt called Javier/Clems guide to an easy life! And I'm one who loves to complain about the Aj plot. My reason is Christa's Baby. But I wouldn't abandon Aj ethier so......
You hope she dies. Why do you want her to die when there is no reason for it? Theyre in a community where they can settle down and raise kids. Or do you just want people to stop procreating all together?
Comments
It would've been nice to be able to give AJ a different name, I mean it's a cool name - Alvin Junior - and a good tribute to the father Alvin. I just didn't like how it felt as though Kenny chose the name for him out of guilt for leaving Alvin behind or not giving himself up to keep him alive. I recall lots of people hoping for it to be a choice.
Even badass characters sometimes require hand-holding and development. Although allot of people seem to only care about completely independent characters with good action scenes but at least that's only some people.
I agree, especially about 'thinking outside the narrative'. Just using logic to attempt to explain or undermine aspects of a fictional reality seems like a pointless thing to do.
Like Marijaa pointed out, he is a baby. But if you're looking for the usefulness of having a baby, you'd be surprised at the kindness strangers could show towards you if you have an infant, the world's future, in your arms.
What baby did Lee have a choice in looking after? I don't remember this in Season One...
If you meant Clementine, yeah, he did make the choice to care for Clementine as Clementine makes the choice to care for AJ.
Jesus, what is your problem, guys? I don't want AJ with me, this is my opinion. Everyone has to respect each other's opinion.
Yeah, but we do have the right to agree or disagree with it. :P
Because people get pregnant in real life as well and the only 'supernatural' we have in game is walkers. Humans stay humans. And humans get pregnant. It had to do with Rebecca's story with Carver too.
I agree, she's not a completely blank slate character controlled by fans. She still has values imparted in her by her parents, Lee, Christa, Omid, and everyone else who has influenced her. Ive seen nothing to indicate her being capable of abandoning a newborn baby to death even if some fans would wish that.
You can find symbols (not smart ones necessarily) if you want to. AJ can symbolize hope. Or helplessness. Or innocence. So yeah, I just made up his purpose.
They all had their own interpretations of the baby, what he meant to them in the apocalypse. Jane does start the talk abour raising a baby with Rebecca but later on all characters focus on their own, "selfish" goals and ambitions. We've seen children coping with the apocalypse but the baby is something new in this game.
Sarah's death was horrible, I believe we all can agree on that. It was nice seeing baby alive and well, with the flaw of everyone ignoring poor teenager just being eaten alive. Every day some people die and some are just born. An intense contrast, isn't it?
She did have her own personality already shaped and her motives pretty clear. We obviously disagree on this one.
You can only expect double-layered, top quality blankets from our company! We are happy to help.
There's a difference between respecting and disagreeing with someone's opinion. This is a forum where we all are allowed to discuss.
People don't just magically get pregnant in real life, it's a thing that happens and is planned, which AJ definitely was, how insane must you be to willingly birth a baby in a world this fucked up, a world with no hope, a world where he has no chance of living a normal life? It doesn't hold up with your "this is real life" argument, because in real life if you put people into this situation they would obviously never even wish for a baby. He is obviously a plot device, a plot device used in Rebecca's and Carver's story as well as Kenny and Jane's feud.
Sometimes that we overlook the fact that, even when we are making decisions, those decisions are there because Clementine thought about them in the first place.
For example, when Carver is beating Kenny with the walkie-talkie, Clementine has the chance to either go help him herself, because he is somebody who she knew in the past, and pretending to do Pete knows what, or to help Carlos restrain Sarita, since Carlos is asking Clem directly for help, and she might feel obliged to comply given that he is an adult.
That is two choices, but there are other choices that we weren't given—comfort Sarah, ask Mike for help, shout for Tavia to intervene, break one of the background vases to call attention, or even curl into a ball on the ground.
We can see everyone as liabilites but we shouldn't because that's a primitive way of thinking.
Why did people keep kids and babies alive during the wars? Because they are, guess what, HUMAN BEINGS! They deserve a chance as much as everybody else.
That's why nobody talks about killing any other human beings.
So these are the magical words that justify murder nowadays?
That, that actually makes a lot of sense, at least in the alone and go with Kenny endings, where you are presumably out in the open with no direction. Going by ethics, I believe that it would be ambiguous more than it'd be wrong. However, I don't think that there is a reason to do so in the Howe's and Wellington endings.
Oh wait, but they're going to merge the five routes at some point. Yeah, that brings some trouble onto the table.
Anyway, I do understand and partly share your point. It would have to be something quick though.
Since we have no idea whose child is AJ we can't be sure whether Rebecca planned actually having a child or it all happened because of Carver and their meetings.
He exists for plot, of course, so does every fiction character ever. Lee was a plot device for Clementine's story. The boat was a plot deivce. Chuck was a plot device.
He asked why we hate AJ and i answered. That's it. There is no need to explain me he is baby.
There was need to explain. He's a baby and he can't be "useful" to anyone. A stupid reason to hate anyone, even a character.
Yes, i know baby can't be "useful". That's not i mean. My english is not good and i couldn't explain what i mean. Sorry for that.
HueHue? HueHueHue!
Although we have choices, the choices we can make are the choices Clementine presents for herself as BetterToSleep said, if she was a blank slate we would have the ability to say anything and do anything, dialogue and actions would not be restricted by her own perspective of the situation.
Plus, we only play as her for about a week in Season 2, hardly enough time to mold her into someone who dislikes babies in my opinion, especially when there's no options available for Clementine to show she dislikes babies(even if she doesn't hold AJ the first time, she does it anyway later on).
Basically, like all characters from games that pertain choices, the characters already have some established personality, otherwise how would the narrative work?
I don't have a problem, I just disagree with your perspective and as you have every right to have an opinion, I have every right to have one as well. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it.
She was obviously happy at the thought of having a child, I think it would be a safe assumption he was planned. In the case he wasn't planned it would make even less sense, it'd be stupid as hell to even risk having a child in the apocalypse.
Lee was an actual character, not a bunch of pixels that sometimes lets out something similar to baby sounds.
It had to do with Carver and I don't recall very well why did they have the relationship they had. We can't know for sure.
Babies are still characters, with no real formed personality, of course. We are not playing as them (lmao) so there isn't a real reason why AJ shouldn't be in the game. It wasn't a stranger's baby that they made like ten minutes before Jane vs Kenny so it's all fine.
MFW I click the thread and read this...
Very good points.
If that's what you're advocating, i don't see how pointing it out is calling names. It's pointing out your position.
I thought you were done talking to me...
No one was worked up. Gosh the Internet so wants to be treated like innocent little flowers.
I want to get rid of AJ asap. He is a liability and think about it, he's gotta grow atleast 7 years or so to become atleast a little bit usefull.
I cant.
This
You said connections to babies would change. Not true of everyone. Only the weak would abandon them
you can't?
I can't deal with this whole attitude that if you're not "useful", you're garbage. Thank goodness the show doesn't think that of Judith.
I was saying if I feel right not caring about Nick or Sarah's deaths.
So what I meant by that was I should feel the same about all of their lives. So when I was heartless leaving them behind, it should be the same here
Oh well thats your opinion. In the comics she died thankfully. I hope she will die in the show at some point too. I mean it gotta be annoying to film scenes with a baby all the time from a production standpoint aswell.
Hi all! Firstly I'd like to say thank you TTG for continueing this story at all. And Clem rocks! Now then, Aj's plotline....how to explain it..one word...Drama! I feel like haters hate him because its a pretty bad time already! Walker,walkers everywhere. Now here's a baby for you to care, Let us sleep now if you dare, the brains,the brains they're everywhere! Poetry(such as it is) aside, TWD is drama! AJ creates that,ppl love to complain but its true. The game is'nt called Javier/Clems guide to an easy life! And I'm one who loves to complain about the Aj plot. My reason is Christa's Baby. But I wouldn't abandon Aj ethier so......
You hope she dies. Why do you want her to die when there is no reason for it? Theyre in a community where they can settle down and raise kids. Or do you just want people to stop procreating all together?