I doubt he would've shot her in that not-so-vital-area on purpose.
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you, my good new friend. He hit that notsovitalarea because he has some bad aim: notice how that area is right above Clementine's heart? I'm pretty sure shooting her was partially intentional, given that he's clearly paranoid about Clementine and doesn't want Mike to trust her should she ask to come along. I doubt he was planning on outright killing her, mind you, but in the heat of the moment, he pulled the trigger and realized seconds too late what had been done.
I truly do see your points, here, but Arvo wasn't deserving of the hate that he is currently receiving.
The tone in his voice wasn't cold… more, per se, but it was more of a tone that said "I don't like how they're laughing at me".
He, yes, didn't want he or his sister to get hurt. But also, you gotta remember that there was a baby involved and he has morals.
I also forgot to mention, it wasn't Arvo's fault that the gunfight started. His group members got startled when Rebecca was shot by (determinant) you or Kenny. Thinking that they were being shot at, the Russian group shot back. It wasn't really anybody's fault.
It is a determinant if Clem wants to go with them or not. Also, if he wanted to kill Clementine, he would've killed her! Arvo had to have had a good aim. I doubt he would've shot her in that not-so-vital-area on purpose.
I'm glad you're like this, honestly. I feel like at times, people on these forums refrain to admit that they are wrong because they fear their pride might be damaged. I see it in a total different way. Admitting a mistake takes way more courage than keeping on rambling about something that has already been proven wrong. If people never changed their minds and didn't admit their mistakes/misunderstandings, then no-one would ever be able to improve.
I can't help but feel the same way, which is not very encouraging. I've been thinking about what purpose it has to discuss with people who refuse to consider the alternate perspective yet still have the nerve to blindly defend their own opinion. I've come to the conclusion that I won't waste my time on it anymore, unless I need some quick source of humor.
Also, thank you!
Thing is, if they're attacking for the little revolver, surely they could've tried to ask for it before they started threathening them. And if the problem here was really only the gun, they why did they ask for all their supplies?
From my point of view, the man with the assault rifle and the one with the shotgun were keen on stealing from this group for revenge, for retaliation. This however was started by the theft of the gun, of the medical supplies, by the threat made to Arvo and also because the latter was left to walk defenseless for miles, where any walker could devour him effortlessly.
It is clear that we don't know what Arvo would have done if he had been left armed, but, nonetheless, Jane and Clementine's approach to Arvo is what caused the rest of his group to decide to strike back and rob us. I am convinced that if Arvo had told them that he encountered some random survivors while out for a walk, and also that they didn't seem threatening but appeared guarded, neither his sister nor the two men would have attempted to idealize an ambush. Clementine and Jane could have stayed hidden and avoided every single piece of conflict with Arvo's group.
Same thing applies if Clem and Jane do steal the meds. In that scenario they are way more justified for pointing guns at the group and demand what was theirs and even resort to violence if the group refused to pay them back in some way, but they still didn't necessarily need to demand all the group had, it wasn't their only option.
You are completely right. I'd like to make clear that I still believe the attempted robbery was immoral, and it sure as hell wasn't their only option. What I am arguing is that their reasons are more valid and their motivation more understandable than what the average user on here believes.
Jane threatening Arvo was understandable and was just a warning. She didn't really harm him in any way and if the group attacks because of some words they really overreacted.
Like I said shortly above, the threat was not the primary cause, but it contributed to the mindset that retaliation would be delivering justice while also acquiring supplies for themselves.
I would say that being held over the handrail of a deck with a gun pressed against your temple is not exactly just some words, especially if the young adult had not been involved in anything like that ever before.
I always prefered the name Maud instead of the generic Russian name 'Natasha'
I second that.
OK. I wasn't aware of that. It's good to know, though. I still hold Arvo and Natasha (I always prefered the name Maud instead of the generic Russian name 'Natasha') accountable and partially to blame here.
I'm going to use a comparison here (this is a bit of an exageration, but it's the best I could find to describe my feelings on this situation).
During the holocaust, hundreds of German soldiers commited war dispicable and unhuman war crimes against inocent people. They were acting under the orders of their tyranicall leaders, yet they are still held accountable for their terrible actions.
Now, Arvo and Natasha weren't obviously planning on commiting genocide, but they were still partaking in the plan against Clem's group.
I appreciate your comparison, but I would like to point out that the genocides carried out affected people who did nothing to set off the chain of events other than exist as far as my knowledge goes, whereas members of our group did actually start the friction between both factions. It's also important to note that all of our group survived the confrontation.
Still, that makes Arvo's actions way more justifiable indeed. Obviously, Arvo and Natasha could've tried to go against Vitali and Buriko but I understand why they wouldn't take the chance of going against their leaders only to help a group of unknown people.
I am glad to know this!
Well, actually, it's said even if you don't rob them (the only way you can avoid it is if you tell the group to help him, if you do, he starts rambling about needing bandages until his 'friends' appear).
Are you entirely sure? I could be confusing how everything plays out, but I find it strange that the only way of avoiding the line instead triggers the line where he asks for bandages, because this last one can only play before the rest of his group is revealed. And the line in question is also "but you, we know," but it'd sound out of place if he said this while standing alone.
Anyways, the happiness in his tone of voice might be my overanalysation of the matter. He was totally smug about it, though.
He was a smug about it, though I still believe that it's only said by him if you previously stole his medicine. Both of us will have to double check!
No! Didn't say it is wrong. Just saying that, unlike what some people point out, he wasn't particularly worried about our group's (that is, determinantly, a group of innocent people) safety, like he was in some moral high ground trying to make things right 'as some people make it out to be'.
This is an agreement, then.
Not sure if it was clear, but I was sorta justifying his actions there. I'm well aware that he thought that his sister had been manslaughtered (yaaay, new words!) by Clem.
This is an agreement, then!
I was going by my canon, where I asked to leave and he shot me : /.
(I love how that face looks with the space in between.)
I'm not sure if I made it clear, but I don't really hold a grudge on Arvo for shooting Clem, I was mainly pissed at him for ambushing an innocent group of people.
Or being part of the ambush, I suppose.
Hell, if I was able to forgive Lilly for shooting Carley based on baseless accusations, then I'm obviously able to forgive Arvo was well, considering he was probably suffering 3 times more than Lilly and actually witnessed Clem shooting his sister.
I will do my best to change your opinion, and I am open to rejecting my current one and picking up yours if you manage to convince me.
… more
I'm glad you're like this, honestly. I feel like at times, people on these forums refrain to admit that they are wrong because they fear their pride might be damaged. I see it in a total different way. Admitting a mistake takes way more courage than keeping on rambling about something that has already been proven wrong. If people never changed their minds and didn't admit their mistakes/misunderstandings, then no-one would ever be able to improve.
All hail the refill of your mobile date.
They refilled it at 00:04am. They were 4 minutes late!!! That's it, I'm suing them.
As @.wdfan said below, our group is the one that commenced conflict as soon as Jane took Arvo's gun, threatened to kill him while pinning him over a handrail, and determinantly robbed him of invaluable medicine that … [view original content]
How do you know that? Where is that in the game? Oh, and I give death glares all the time to people, but that doesn't mean I want to do inse… morert scenario here to them because they did insert other scenario here to insert name here.
He looked pretty pissed off when Clem was saved by Jane when she was trying to save Luke.
2)I never said Jane would/should return it, I only said that she is the one who took the gun and, in turn, he didn't have the gun at the confrontation. You said that he might not have had a gun at the confrontation because he was a bad shot, I explained why he didn't have his gun with him at the confrontation - not because he was a bad shot, but because his gun was taken from him by Jane and it wasn't returned to him (not saying it should be/would be) so he was left without a weapon.
But you did say that Jane taking it is good enough reason to hunt them down.
3) OH! I also remembered, it is a determin… [view original content]
Why does everyone think the heart is to the left? The heart is more located in the center - he probably hit just above a lung. If he wanted to kill Clementine, he would've killed her. He wouldn't have waited so long to shoot her if he did.
I doubt he would've shot her in that not-so-vital-area on purpose.
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you, my good new frien… mored. He hit that notsovitalarea because he has some bad aim: notice how that area is right above Clementine's heart? I'm pretty sure shooting her was partially intentional, given that he's clearly paranoid about Clementine and doesn't want Mike to trust her should she ask to come along. I doubt he was planning on outright killing her, mind you, but in the heat of the moment, he pulled the trigger and realized seconds too late what had been done.
I personally don't hate him to the point where I want him dead but I can understand why others do. The main reason: for shooting Clementine… more.
Lets say someone you love/care about A LOT gets shot. In that moment you won't think about anything else. They hurt someone you care about so the first instinct is to want them dead. Some people have this feeling stronger than others, to the point where it's impossible to reason with them. I mean, at least the hate is some what justified. Arvo shooting Clementine is better than any other reason to hate him. (Especially when she even lowers her gun.) So I find it a waste of time (all due respect to them) arguing with them about it.
Okay fine, I made a mistake, you happy? I thought it was implied, not directly said. Everyone usually uses that argument to justify Arvo coming after the group.
while the man with the assault rifle says that he doesn't care about their opinion,
Does he? When I did the research for my Arvo analysis a while back, I searched at least 5 different sources for translations and basically just cobbled together what we consistent and what would've made the most sense in the context and tone.
For example, apparently when Arvo questions Buricko about his orders to rob the group, he was asking what exactly did he want to take from them, to which he hilariously notes something along the lines of"Well, shit, I don't know! Just aything useful, I guess."
This is the first time that we've been in opposite sides of a discussion, so this should be interesting! I will do my best to change your op… moreinion, and I am open to rejecting my current one and picking up yours if you manage to convince me.
All hail the refill of your mobile date.
Arvo and his group ambush you. There's no denying to that. They were a group of bandits, they try to take your stuff even if you don't steal from them.
As @wdfan said below, our group is the one that commenced conflict as soon as Jane took Arvo's gun, threatened to kill him while pinning him over a handrail, and determinantly robbed him of invaluable medicine that his sister needed. Jane herself is ashamed shortly after of her deplorable behavior, comparing herself to a bandit. Given, taking his gun was a safety precaution for us, but it left him defenseless for miles. It's not reasonable to condemn them for coming back and demanding us to give them … [view original content]
the real question here is: why are you defending him so much? are you in love with him or what? he isn't even an interesting character! that little sht doesnt deserve to live after what he did, no matter what you do, he will always let his group know about clementine's group, even if you were nice to him and let him take his bag of medicines he and his group will try to kill you anyway, they are fcking bandits, clementine's group probably weren't the first group to encounter them! its true that clem killed his sister, but she was already dead! she was a walker! and everyone were in the middle of a fcking shootout! What would you have done if you were in clem's position?? let the walker kill you? die for nothing? i hope the walkers kill him slowly and tear him apart, to bonnie and mike too! What the fck was bonnie thinking when she thought that send clem (adding more weight to the ice) to grab luke's hand was a good idea?? If they would have just covered Luke, he would have survived!! they all deserve to die, i get it! they were "afraid" of kenny! (fcking cowards!) but they had no right to steal the truck and leave jane, clem and the baby without anything! they never did shit to them! instead of talking to jane and clem, they prefer to take and save arvo instead! WTF? you have to be a heartless son of the btch to do something like that! let a baby die just to save your ass!
I consider Arvo at the very least to be Lawful Neutral(see the character alignment thread if you haven't already): regardless of the fact that Buricko seemed to be the ringleader, Vitali is definitely a psycho, and Natasha can at the very least act intimidating, Arvo's stance on robbing the group is always one of reluctance. He is definitely angry with being stuck up and threatened by Jane and takes some false-amusement(best way I could describe that weird smile) in getting even if you stole the bag, but he always has an expression suggesting that he doesn't actually approve of robbing people. However, he still goes along with it on Buricko's orders, even taking a moment to express regret that he and Clementine didn't meet under better circumstances beforehand if you didn't rob him, presumably because, kind or not, Clementine still technically helped grab him. An eye for an eye, mate!
Jane takes his gun no matter what and basically threatens to kill him if she ever sees him again.
And I'm glad you brought the 'gun … moreexcuse' into the table. It leads me to the second part of my reasoning to why I think they're definitely bandits.
If Arvo's group needed that gun so bad, then why didn't they just ask for it? Arvo was sent back home, unharmed and with all his meds. They had 0 reasons to believe that this group wouldn't colaborate. Instead, they chose to take a violent and agressive appraoch and ask for all their meds, a typical approach among bandits.
Even in the scenario where Jane robs Arvo, any normal and decent group of people would ask for only the meds and not the whole supplies and guns the group had.
This leads me to believe that Arvo's group was indeed a group of bandits.
I never really saw the evidence that he was lying about his sister. They did set up the situation to make him seem a little bit shady, but I personally choose to believe Natasha truly was ill. (He wasn't lying about having a sister, her skin-tone)
He (arguably unofficially) wasn't: Natasha was supposed to indeed have sickle cell anemia, which matches up with Arvo's description of her condition and the need for painkillers among the other medicine. The fact that Natasha's unused English voice sounds like a psychotic strangled chicken all but confirms this.
I honestly agree. I couldn't help but feel a lot of sympathy towards the guy. He wasn't exactly Mr. Evil. You can tell right off the bat tha… moret he's at a great disadvantage. He's scrawny, has the leg brace, and all around appears to be very non-threatening. Of course looks can be deceiving, but in this scenerio he truly was not a threat. Jane takes his gun no matter what, which leaves him defenseless. Do you really think he's good at hand-to-hand zombie combat? Do you truly believe that he could've outrun any walkers that found him? By taking his gun, Jane seemingly condemned him to death. On top of that, you can determinantly steal his sister's medicine. It sounded to me as if she truly needed that medicine and I got the idea that he was being sincere. I never really saw the evidence that he was lying about his sister. They did set up the situation to make him seem a little bit shady, but I personally choose to believe Natasha truly was ill. (… [view original content]
I'm defending the little guy cuz of people like you. I was defending Ben in Season 1, too. I defended Bonnie; I defend a lot of the people who are poorly treated/unfairly hated. That, and I told people to try and argue that Arvo was a jerk.
In a YouTube video it is seen that Arvo did wish that he could've met Clementine in a different way, as she was kind and that was not common.
Arvo didn't know that Natasha had reanimated and thought Clementine murdered her in cold blood.
Bonnie sent her out because Clementine was the lightest. There was a chance that Luke could be saved (and it should make you feel better that Luke was originally supposed to live ((there's audio clips on YouTube for proof of that)) but TTG canned that idea).
They were afraid of Kenny because he was getting reckless and violent for no reason - he was a broken man, and "broken people get reckless" -Luke
They were taking Arvo to get away from Kenny and (determinant) they were more than willing to have Clementine come along but Arvo prevented that. And we don't know if they took the baby formula and such (as they would have no use for it) so you can't say they left AJ to starve.
Take your asshurt-self elsewhere - drop the language, approach me calmly, quite trying to troll/trigger me (and it's a feeble attempt).
the real question here is: why are you defending him so much? are you in love with him or what? he isn't even an interesting character! that… more little sht doesnt deserve to live after what he did, no matter what you do, he will always let his group know about clementine's group, even if you were nice to him and let him take his bag of medicines he and his group will try to kill you anyway, they are fcking bandits, clementine's group probably weren't the first group to encounter them! its true that clem killed his sister, but she was already dead! she was a walker! and everyone were in the middle of a fcking shootout! What would you have done if you were in clem's position?? let the walker kill you? die for nothing? i hope the walkers kill him slowly and tear him apart, to bonnie and mike too! What the fck was bonnie thinking when she thought that send clem (adding more weight to the ice) to grab luke's hand was a good idea?? If they would have j… [view original content]
determinantly lies about the medicine being stolen.
lies to Clementine so his group can ambush the main group.
he blames Clementine for killing a zombified Natasha(whilst I understand that he didn't realize she turned, he just assumed).
he shoots Clementine - I don't care if people don't think this isn't a justified reason to dislike Arvo, it, alone, is.
Arvo, although I personally don't hate him, has done bad things. Whether the hate is justified is not really up to you to decide - each and every individual can decide this on their own.
And I took Bio classes at least 5 times too. Sorry about that, mate/love!
Also, I realize I stressed him shooting her on purpose a bit much in that post. I think it could be a combination of both: he felt like he should just should her at the moment but actually doing it was going too far: if you were nice around him, he does noticeably get a look of horror when he does so; if you were mean, he does so without too much of a regret on his face but realizes that he made the wrong move; in the shoot Mike option, he is technically justified in doing so but his reaction is still one that suggests that it was slowly sinking in how far he's gone and he takes off.
I try to take as much information as possible into account with scenarios like this because it rely helps to understand the characters' motivations if you know the full spectrum of action.
Why does everyone think the heart is to the left? The heart is more located in the center - he probably hit just above a lung. If he wanted to kill Clementine, he would've killed her. He wouldn't have waited so long to shoot her if he did.
there is also no reason to like him either i mean what did he do at all he isn't even interesting in anyway, in amid the ruins we just see him get robbed (or not) and then come back holding our group at gun point (and determinantly lie about us robbing him) and then in no going back we just see him get thrown around and shoot clem (honestly that alone can justify some of the hate) honestly i don't understand how anyone can even like him either, there are more reasons to dislike him than there are to like him
The hatred towards Arvo (Walking Dead: Season 2 - Episodes 4-5) is completely unjustified.
Right?
The hatred towards Troy was also completely unjustified. I mean, he was a borderline-sociopath that seemed to take pleasure in others' suffering and impliedly raped Jane and who knows how many people, but I know the real Troy is a good person.
Try and give me a good argument as to why Arvo is such a bad guy or deserving of the hatred he receives, and I WILL be able to counter that argument. Guaranteed.
Ok, here goes. He shot Clementine, sometimes the right answer is the simplest.
I disagree, I think there are valid arguments on both sides. On one hand, Arvo did some seriously scummy shit that he did not have to do, and he ratted the group out to his pals even if you don't take the meds. On the other, Arvo is just a stupid kid. a kid who got completely wrapped up in all of this bullshit, lost his entire friend group and then was abused by Kenny (totally better than Jane, obviously /s), so really there's both justified reasons to like him, and justified reasons to hate him. At the end of the day, it all boils down to opinion.
there is also no reason to like him either i mean what did he do at all he isn't even interesting in anyway, in amid the ruins we just see h… moreim get robbed (or not) and then come back holding our group at gun point (and determinantly lie about us robbing him) and then in no going back we just see him get thrown around and shoot clem (honestly that alone can justify some of the hate) honestly i don't understand how anyone can even like him either, there are more reasons to dislike him than there are to like him
That's THE ONLY reason, however. And Troy is a terrible comparison. Arvo was sane and he had morals.
I'm talking about the hatred that is undeserving towards him: everyone seems to blame him for everyone's death from the confrontation and onwards. I myself was angry at him for shooting Clementine, but people absolutely despised him for no given reason.
If you're gonna compare Arvo to another character, try using someone that AT LEAST is a lot like Arvo.
The hatred towards Arvo (Walking Dead: Season 2 - Episodes 4-5) is completely unjustified.
Right?
The hatred towards Troy was als… moreo completely unjustified. I mean, he was a borderline-sociopath that seemed to take pleasure in others' suffering and impliedly raped Jane and who knows how many people, but I know the real Troy is a good person.
Try and give me a good argument as to why Arvo is such a bad guy or deserving of the hatred he receives, and I WILL be able to counter that argument. Guaranteed.
Ok, here goes. He shot Clementine, sometimes the right answer is the simplest.
Rebecca's death was not because of the ambush. Like Luke said (or was is Bonnie?) - she lost too much blood. She died from the stress. And Luke's death was caused by thin ice. It did only recently freeze over and Arvo's group was able to cross it safely. You can't blame him for thinking the same thing.
And I would hide medicine for my sister or my brother - dude, his sister was REALLY sick. She needed the medicine.
Arvo's reasons for shooting her are somewhat clouded as there is no real evidence or anything speaking his reasons, but he thought Clementine MURDERED his sister in cold blood because he didn't know she reanimated. To recap the confrontation: Arvo was performing CPR on his sister and then Kenneth uses him as a human meat shield and POSSIBLY (that's the biggest possibly, too) prevented him from reviving his sister. He didn't see that his sister reanimated because he was struggling to get away from Kenneth.
Arvo, actually, says that he wished he met Clementine in a different way, as she was kind to him and that was not common (you have to really be careful with your words and not rob him to get that reaction from him). The reason he hates her is because of his sister - forgiveness NEVER comes easy when someone you love and care for is killed. And keep in mind that you weren't able to tell him his sister reanimated (and he probably wouldn't have believed you, at a certain point).
Arvo shot her POSSIBLY on accident, as well. The look on his face appeared to be shock or surprise and then immediate regret. I keep forgetting to mention this to others, but when he met her on the Observation Deck his hand was shaking almost uncontrollably the more he talked to Clementine - he DID NOT want to shoot her as she was a child. Ideas and morals can change quickly but I doubt that Arvo intentionally shot her and in such a not-so-fatal-area (NO - the heart is more in the center; he probably shot just above a lung or just in her shoulder).
True, but there is only one reason why people should really hate Arvo, and that's because he shot Clementine (POSSIBLY ((biggest possibly)) on accident). People then make up half a dozen more reasons to hate him and those were purely circumstantial and a lot of people would've told their group the same thing - "Someone robbed/tried to rob me". You can't really avoid too much if you're questioned as to why you got held up or if you're without the medicine you previously had.
I disagree, I think there are valid arguments on both sides. On one hand, Arvo did some seriously scummy shit that he did not have to do, an… mored he ratted the group out to his pals even if you don't take the meds. On the other, Arvo is just a stupid kid. a kid who got completely wrapped up in all of this bullshit, lost his entire friend group and then was abused by Kenny (totally better than Jane, obviously /s), so really there's both justified reasons to like him, and justified reasons to hate him. At the end of the day, it all boils down to opinion.
Yeah, that's how I look at every character in TWD - with a broad spectrum and a not-so-narrow-mind. A lot of other people tend to forget about that.
And yeah, I went through the fourth and fifth episode (pain in the ass JUST to get to the confrontation...) and tried being rude and then being nice (being rude was so hard for me to do!! XD ) and yeah, there were some small reaction differences, but not very many people will care or they'll say his face was a "oh shit, I done -bleeped- up!" Face.
Also, doesn't really matter which you call me - I use mate/love as general references. Mate is kinda when I'm just addressing the person altogether but if I use 'love' then I'm trying to either be more firm or I'm losing my cool (rarely it's the latter).
And I took Bio classes at least 5 times too. Sorry about that, mate/love!
Also, I realize I stressed him shooting her on purpose a bit mu… morech in that post. I think it could be a combination of both: he felt like he should just should her at the moment but actually doing it was going too far: if you were nice around him, he does noticeably get a look of horror when he does so; if you were mean, he does so without too much of a regret on his face but realizes that he made the wrong move; in the shoot Mike option, he is technically justified in doing so but his reaction is still one that suggests that it was slowly sinking in how far he's gone and he takes off.
I try to take as much information as possible into account with scenarios like this because it rely helps to understand the characters' motivations if you know the full spectrum of action.
I completely disagree with that one. People can feel whatever way they want about Arvo, and what you might not think is a reason to hate him, others do. People have different priorities, different feelings on the matter. It's 100% opinion and it's not cool to say there's only one reason people feel anger or resentment towards them when there are quite a few reasons that some people have.
I personally think him going to get his group to come after us even with all of his meds is absolutely despicable, and he led his group into death, but I can understand why you'd feel otherwise because we're different human beings with different levels of where it's too much. I think Arvo, just like Kenny, Troy, Carver and Vernon before him, crossed my line. Arvo fucked up to me, and while I don't hate him, I don't feel very positively about him either.
Nobody makes up reasons to hate him, their reasons are from their perspective of the game and his character. Some people consider him ratting the group out to be shitty, some consider his shooting at Clem to be completely on purpose, some feel that he was generally awful in the way he handled everything.
I am not exactly one of those people, I definitely think that he purposely shot Clem and I definitely think that he ratted the group out for no reason, but I don't hate him at all. I find his character quite interesting and I want to know more about him but I still feel negatively about him. But saying people's reasons are invalid isn't a fair thing to do. Your reasons are perfectly valid because it's your opinion and it's your perspective, and i respect that. And the same goes with the other side of the argument.
True, but there is only one reason why people should really hate Arvo, and that's because he shot Clementine (POSSIBLY ((biggest possibly)) … moreon accident). People then make up half a dozen more reasons to hate him and those were purely circumstantial and a lot of people would've told their group the same thing - "Someone robbed/tried to rob me". You can't really avoid too much if you're questioned as to why you got held up or if you're without the medicine you previously had.
Well I don't HATE Arvo. However, despite if you sympathize with him or not, Arvo is, undoubtedly, an enemy of the group (AFTER the shooting situation of course). So he is completely justified in everything he did, well so is almost everyone else in the series. I wish things have been different, I really do, but the kid is nothing more than an enemy who survived the shooting. Were it up to me, I would let Kenny kill him once we were done using him to get to the house. The world is like that now, and Clem's group certainly didn't start a "jail system" just yet.
All this "Ooh but Kenny was abusing him at every opportunity "nonsense is making my head spin. If anything, Kenny acted like the most rational and pragmatic individual - the guy who ambushes your group and breaks out a firefight (if non-intentionally) that put the group with an infant in mortal danger should be just left alone because what, he's a scared kid and he lost all his people? If Kenny had killed him right after the firefight, Clementine wouldn't get shot, Luke would presumably be still alive and most of the group would be intact. And despite what you say, the only time Kenny beat Arvo was when Luke died (Which was partially Arvo's fault for running) and Arvo antagonized him by saying "Fuck you". The only other time was if you chose to leave Kenny his space at the station - and he only did it in response to Arvo's bloody screaming that would attract walkers. And for those saying that Jane is better, remember that it was actually her who robbed a crippled kid and wanted to blow his brains out.
Dude i was just kedding and yeah i hate arvo and i don't care to explain my heatred about him to any one cuz i never liked him i wish if just kenny shoot him off but wow mike and luke trying to be a heros i don't care to hear any defense about him cuz i already my decide how i feel about him and i don't care to change it or to listen any good words its said about him Or to hear the lawyers defending him
The hatred towards Troy was also completely unjustified. I mean, he was a borderline-sociopath that seemed to take pleasure in others' suffering and impliedly raped Jane and who knows how many people, but I know the real Troy is a good person.
This has got to be the most self defeating arguments I have ever seen.
I mean I got the feeling that some of his more violent behavior was an act, too, but damn!
Also, while Owen Thomas(is that his name?) confirmed that that was supposed to be in the game, I always just took it as Jane slowly manipulating him over time by lettin him beat-beat-beat-beat-beat! I think it adds to her menace.
Ok, here goes. He shot Clementine, sometimes the right answer is the simplest.
This right here is gray/grey at its finest: why Arvo did it and what brought him to that point is relatively sympathetic, but that final action is what puts him into villain territory. Even if it is [annoyingly] blown out of proportion sometimes.
The hatred towards Arvo (Walking Dead: Season 2 - Episodes 4-5) is completely unjustified.
Right?
The hatred towards Troy was als… moreo completely unjustified. I mean, he was a borderline-sociopath that seemed to take pleasure in others' suffering and impliedly raped Jane and who knows how many people, but I know the real Troy is a good person.
Try and give me a good argument as to why Arvo is such a bad guy or deserving of the hatred he receives, and I WILL be able to counter that argument. Guaranteed.
Ok, here goes. He shot Clementine, sometimes the right answer is the simplest.
That's THE ONLY reason, however. And Troy is a terrible comparison. Arvo was sane and he had morals.
I'm talking about the hatred that is… more undeserving towards him: everyone seems to blame him for everyone's death from the confrontation and onwards. I myself was angry at him for shooting Clementine, but people absolutely despised him for no given reason.
If you're gonna compare Arvo to another character, try using someone that AT LEAST is a lot like Arvo.
Comments
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you, my good new friend. He hit that notsovitalarea because he has some bad aim: notice how that area is right above Clementine's heart? I'm pretty sure shooting her was partially intentional, given that he's clearly paranoid about Clementine and doesn't want Mike to trust her should she ask to come along. I doubt he was planning on outright killing her, mind you, but in the heat of the moment, he pulled the trigger and realized seconds too late what had been done.
He wasn't a very interesting character. That's why I didn't really care for him particularly.
I can't help but feel the same way, which is not very encouraging. I've been thinking about what purpose it has to discuss with people who refuse to consider the alternate perspective yet still have the nerve to blindly defend their own opinion. I've come to the conclusion that I won't waste my time on it anymore, unless I need some quick source of humor.
Also, thank you!
From my point of view, the man with the assault rifle and the one with the shotgun were keen on stealing from this group for revenge, for retaliation. This however was started by the theft of the gun, of the medical supplies, by the threat made to Arvo and also because the latter was left to walk defenseless for miles, where any walker could devour him effortlessly.
It is clear that we don't know what Arvo would have done if he had been left armed, but, nonetheless, Jane and Clementine's approach to Arvo is what caused the rest of his group to decide to strike back and rob us. I am convinced that if Arvo had told them that he encountered some random survivors while out for a walk, and also that they didn't seem threatening but appeared guarded, neither his sister nor the two men would have attempted to idealize an ambush. Clementine and Jane could have stayed hidden and avoided every single piece of conflict with Arvo's group.
You are completely right. I'd like to make clear that I still believe the attempted robbery was immoral, and it sure as hell wasn't their only option. What I am arguing is that their reasons are more valid and their motivation more understandable than what the average user on here believes.
Like I said shortly above, the threat was not the primary cause, but it contributed to the mindset that retaliation would be delivering justice while also acquiring supplies for themselves.
I would say that being held over the handrail of a deck with a gun pressed against your temple is not exactly just some words, especially if the young adult had not been involved in anything like that ever before.
I second that.
I appreciate your comparison, but I would like to point out that the genocides carried out affected people who did nothing to set off the chain of events other than exist as far as my knowledge goes, whereas members of our group did actually start the friction between both factions. It's also important to note that all of our group survived the confrontation.
I am glad to know this!
Are you entirely sure? I could be confusing how everything plays out, but I find it strange that the only way of avoiding the line instead triggers the line where he asks for bandages, because this last one can only play before the rest of his group is revealed. And the line in question is also "but you, we know," but it'd sound out of place if he said this while standing alone.
He was a smug about it, though I still believe that it's only said by him if you previously stole his medicine. Both of us will have to double check!
This is an agreement, then.
This is an agreement, then!
(I love how that face looks with the space in between.)
Or being part of the ambush, I suppose.
This is an agreement, then!
I did as well!
Edited section
Hi?
OMG THANK YOU!
Okay, now you're REALLY stuffing words down my throat; quote when I said it was alright for them to hunt them down because they took his gun.
Why does everyone think the heart is to the left? The heart is more located in the center - he probably hit just above a lung. If he wanted to kill Clementine, he would've killed her. He wouldn't have waited so long to shoot her if he did.
You're welcome!
Touché but still, I just kinda want to clear things up as well as debate. ^_^
I think it was because TTG didn't give him too much of a background....
Okay fine, I made a mistake, you happy? I thought it was implied, not directly said. Everyone usually uses that argument to justify Arvo coming after the group.
Does he? When I did the research for my Arvo analysis a while back, I searched at least 5 different sources for translations and basically just cobbled together what we consistent and what would've made the most sense in the context and tone.
For example, apparently when Arvo questions Buricko about his orders to rob the group, he was asking what exactly did he want to take from them, to which he hilariously notes something along the lines of"Well, shit, I don't know! Just aything useful, I guess."
the real question here is: why are you defending him so much? are you in love with him or what? he isn't even an interesting character! that little sht doesnt deserve to live after what he did, no matter what you do, he will always let his group know about clementine's group, even if you were nice to him and let him take his bag of medicines he and his group will try to kill you anyway, they are fcking bandits, clementine's group probably weren't the first group to encounter them! its true that clem killed his sister, but she was already dead! she was a walker! and everyone were in the middle of a fcking shootout! What would you have done if you were in clem's position?? let the walker kill you? die for nothing? i hope the walkers kill him slowly and tear him apart, to bonnie and mike too! What the fck was bonnie thinking when she thought that send clem (adding more weight to the ice) to grab luke's hand was a good idea?? If they would have just covered Luke, he would have survived!! they all deserve to die, i get it! they were "afraid" of kenny! (fcking cowards!) but they had no right to steal the truck and leave jane, clem and the baby without anything! they never did shit to them! instead of talking to jane and clem, they prefer to take and save arvo instead! WTF? you have to be a heartless son of the btch to do something like that! let a baby die just to save your ass!
I consider Arvo at the very least to be Lawful Neutral(see the character alignment thread if you haven't already): regardless of the fact that Buricko seemed to be the ringleader, Vitali is definitely a psycho, and Natasha can at the very least act intimidating, Arvo's stance on robbing the group is always one of reluctance. He is definitely angry with being stuck up and threatened by Jane and takes some false-amusement(best way I could describe that weird smile) in getting even if you stole the bag, but he always has an expression suggesting that he doesn't actually approve of robbing people. However, he still goes along with it on Buricko's orders, even taking a moment to express regret that he and Clementine didn't meet under better circumstances beforehand if you didn't rob him, presumably because, kind or not, Clementine still technically helped grab him. An eye for an eye, mate!
He (arguably unofficially) wasn't: Natasha was supposed to indeed have sickle cell anemia, which matches up with Arvo's description of her condition and the need for painkillers among the other medicine. The fact that Natasha's unused English voice sounds like a psychotic strangled chicken all but confirms this.
I'm defending the little guy cuz of people like you. I was defending Ben in Season 1, too. I defended Bonnie; I defend a lot of the people who are poorly treated/unfairly hated. That, and I told people to try and argue that Arvo was a jerk.
In a YouTube video it is seen that Arvo did wish that he could've met Clementine in a different way, as she was kind and that was not common.
Arvo didn't know that Natasha had reanimated and thought Clementine murdered her in cold blood.
Bonnie sent her out because Clementine was the lightest. There was a chance that Luke could be saved (and it should make you feel better that Luke was originally supposed to live ((there's audio clips on YouTube for proof of that)) but TTG canned that idea).
They were afraid of Kenny because he was getting reckless and violent for no reason - he was a broken man, and "broken people get reckless" -Luke
They were taking Arvo to get away from Kenny and (determinant) they were more than willing to have Clementine come along but Arvo prevented that. And we don't know if they took the baby formula and such (as they would have no use for it) so you can't say they left AJ to starve.
Take your asshurt-self elsewhere - drop the language, approach me calmly, quite trying to troll/trigger me (and it's a feeble attempt).
I didn't know what the heck to think XD
Whilst I easily show sympathy towards Arvo, he:
Arvo, although I personally don't hate him, has done bad things. Whether the hate is justified is not really up to you to decide - each and every individual can decide this on their own.
And I took Bio classes at least 5 times too. Sorry about that, mate/love!
Also, I realize I stressed him shooting her on purpose a bit much in that post. I think it could be a combination of both: he felt like he should just should her at the moment but actually doing it was going too far: if you were nice around him, he does noticeably get a look of horror when he does so; if you were mean, he does so without too much of a regret on his face but realizes that he made the wrong move; in the shoot Mike option, he is technically justified in doing so but his reaction is still one that suggests that it was slowly sinking in how far he's gone and he takes off.
I try to take as much information as possible into account with scenarios like this because it rely helps to understand the characters' motivations if you know the full spectrum of action.
there is also no reason to like him either i mean what did he do at all he isn't even interesting in anyway, in amid the ruins we just see him get robbed (or not) and then come back holding our group at gun point (and determinantly lie about us robbing him) and then in no going back we just see him get thrown around and shoot clem (honestly that alone can justify some of the hate) honestly i don't understand how anyone can even like him either, there are more reasons to dislike him than there are to like him
Thank you for this thread, I love you.
Nah, I think arvos hatred is well deserved. Pretty horrible and evil bandit character
Right?
The hatred towards Troy was also completely unjustified. I mean, he was a borderline-sociopath that seemed to take pleasure in others' suffering and impliedly raped Jane and who knows how many people, but I know the real Troy is a good person.
Ok, here goes. He shot Clementine, sometimes the right answer is the simplest.
Aaaaahhh because he has no balls
I disagree, I think there are valid arguments on both sides. On one hand, Arvo did some seriously scummy shit that he did not have to do, and he ratted the group out to his pals even if you don't take the meds. On the other, Arvo is just a stupid kid. a kid who got completely wrapped up in all of this bullshit, lost his entire friend group and then was abused by Kenny (totally better than Jane, obviously /s), so really there's both justified reasons to like him, and justified reasons to hate him. At the end of the day, it all boils down to opinion.
It's not like, per se, but he's a character I relate to and a character that is mistreated and misunderstood. I think that's what a lot of people feel
No problem, mate! ^_^
He ain't a bandit. Bandits are the common thieves and murderers you see in Season 1. Argo seemed sane (and he was) and he had morals.
That's THE ONLY reason, however. And Troy is a terrible comparison. Arvo was sane and he had morals.
I'm talking about the hatred that is undeserving towards him: everyone seems to blame him for everyone's death from the confrontation and onwards. I myself was angry at him for shooting Clementine, but people absolutely despised him for no given reason.
If you're gonna compare Arvo to another character, try using someone that AT LEAST is a lot like Arvo.
He had balls when he cursed at Kenneth. He had balls to even tell them that there was shelter and food.
Rebecca's death was not because of the ambush. Like Luke said (or was is Bonnie?) - she lost too much blood. She died from the stress. And Luke's death was caused by thin ice. It did only recently freeze over and Arvo's group was able to cross it safely. You can't blame him for thinking the same thing.
And I would hide medicine for my sister or my brother - dude, his sister was REALLY sick. She needed the medicine.
Arvo's reasons for shooting her are somewhat clouded as there is no real evidence or anything speaking his reasons, but he thought Clementine MURDERED his sister in cold blood because he didn't know she reanimated. To recap the confrontation: Arvo was performing CPR on his sister and then Kenneth uses him as a human meat shield and POSSIBLY (that's the biggest possibly, too) prevented him from reviving his sister. He didn't see that his sister reanimated because he was struggling to get away from Kenneth.
Arvo, actually, says that he wished he met Clementine in a different way, as she was kind to him and that was not common (you have to really be careful with your words and not rob him to get that reaction from him). The reason he hates her is because of his sister - forgiveness NEVER comes easy when someone you love and care for is killed. And keep in mind that you weren't able to tell him his sister reanimated (and he probably wouldn't have believed you, at a certain point).
Arvo shot her POSSIBLY on accident, as well. The look on his face appeared to be shock or surprise and then immediate regret. I keep forgetting to mention this to others, but when he met her on the Observation Deck his hand was shaking almost uncontrollably the more he talked to Clementine - he DID NOT want to shoot her as she was a child. Ideas and morals can change quickly but I doubt that Arvo intentionally shot her and in such a not-so-fatal-area (NO - the heart is more in the center; he probably shot just above a lung or just in her shoulder).
True, but there is only one reason why people should really hate Arvo, and that's because he shot Clementine (POSSIBLY ((biggest possibly)) on accident). People then make up half a dozen more reasons to hate him and those were purely circumstantial and a lot of people would've told their group the same thing - "Someone robbed/tried to rob me". You can't really avoid too much if you're questioned as to why you got held up or if you're without the medicine you previously had.
Yeah, that's how I look at every character in TWD - with a broad spectrum and a not-so-narrow-mind. A lot of other people tend to forget about that.
And yeah, I went through the fourth and fifth episode (pain in the ass JUST to get to the confrontation...) and tried being rude and then being nice (being rude was so hard for me to do!! XD ) and yeah, there were some small reaction differences, but not very many people will care or they'll say his face was a "oh shit, I done -bleeped- up!" Face.
Also, doesn't really matter which you call me - I use mate/love as general references. Mate is kinda when I'm just addressing the person altogether but if I use 'love' then I'm trying to either be more firm or I'm losing my cool (rarely it's the latter).
I completely disagree with that one. People can feel whatever way they want about Arvo, and what you might not think is a reason to hate him, others do. People have different priorities, different feelings on the matter. It's 100% opinion and it's not cool to say there's only one reason people feel anger or resentment towards them when there are quite a few reasons that some people have.
I personally think him going to get his group to come after us even with all of his meds is absolutely despicable, and he led his group into death, but I can understand why you'd feel otherwise because we're different human beings with different levels of where it's too much. I think Arvo, just like Kenny, Troy, Carver and Vernon before him, crossed my line. Arvo fucked up to me, and while I don't hate him, I don't feel very positively about him either.
Nobody makes up reasons to hate him, their reasons are from their perspective of the game and his character. Some people consider him ratting the group out to be shitty, some consider his shooting at Clem to be completely on purpose, some feel that he was generally awful in the way he handled everything.
I am not exactly one of those people, I definitely think that he purposely shot Clem and I definitely think that he ratted the group out for no reason, but I don't hate him at all. I find his character quite interesting and I want to know more about him but I still feel negatively about him. But saying people's reasons are invalid isn't a fair thing to do. Your reasons are perfectly valid because it's your opinion and it's your perspective, and i respect that. And the same goes with the other side of the argument.
Well I don't HATE Arvo. However, despite if you sympathize with him or not, Arvo is, undoubtedly, an enemy of the group (AFTER the shooting situation of course). So he is completely justified in everything he did, well so is almost everyone else in the series. I wish things have been different, I really do, but the kid is nothing more than an enemy who survived the shooting. Were it up to me, I would let Kenny kill him once we were done using him to get to the house. The world is like that now, and Clem's group certainly didn't start a "jail system" just yet.
Ah, you must've mixed him up with Buricko--easy mistake.
*
I think pathetic and deficient would be more appropriate.
*No offense to Reds, Commies, Russkies, piece of shits, or shitbirds.
Yeah, I agree with that.
All this "Ooh but Kenny was abusing him at every opportunity "nonsense is making my head spin. If anything, Kenny acted like the most rational and pragmatic individual - the guy who ambushes your group and breaks out a firefight (if non-intentionally) that put the group with an infant in mortal danger should be just left alone because what, he's a scared kid and he lost all his people? If Kenny had killed him right after the firefight, Clementine wouldn't get shot, Luke would presumably be still alive and most of the group would be intact. And despite what you say, the only time Kenny beat Arvo was when Luke died (Which was partially Arvo's fault for running) and Arvo antagonized him by saying "Fuck you". The only other time was if you chose to leave Kenny his space at the station - and he only did it in response to Arvo's bloody screaming that would attract walkers. And for those saying that Jane is better, remember that it was actually her who robbed a crippled kid and wanted to blow his brains out.
Dude i was just kedding and yeah i hate arvo and i don't care to explain my heatred about him to any one cuz i never liked him i wish if just kenny shoot him off but wow mike and luke trying to be a heros i don't care to hear any defense about him cuz i already my decide how i feel about him and i don't care to change it or to listen any good words its said about him Or to hear the lawyers defending him
This has got to be the most self defeating arguments I have ever seen.
I mean I got the feeling that some of his more violent behavior was an act, too, but damn!
Also, while Owen Thomas(is that his name?) confirmed that that was supposed to be in the game, I always just took it as Jane slowly manipulating him over time by lettin him beat-beat-beat-beat-beat! I think it adds to her menace.
This right here is gray/grey at its finest: why Arvo did it and what brought him to that point is relatively sympathetic, but that final action is what puts him into villain territory. Even if it is [annoyingly] blown out of proportion sometimes.
....Sarah? Brie? Michelle? Vernon?
No but seriously, I would love to see a more appropriate comparison as well.