I kind of like this better than what we got. I mean Kenny had a good character arc in season 1 that was conclusive. I love him to death but season was too Kenny heavy for all you filthy moderates I presume.
Plus the Carlos we got was.... well he's best remembered for not knowing a dog bite from a walker bite, not knowing how big a small house is, and "Luke, he's becoming a danger to the group." And that last one wasn't even him! Sarah wasn't much better.
The only downfall is that the history with Kenny made the final 2 choices in No Going Back all the more difficult as you know Kenny as a tragic fallen figure and how he got to that point rather than just as that crazy guy who beat Carver to death with a crowbar.
This would have been so much better than bringing Kenny back.
While I appreciate a positive comment on this topic, I'm have to point out that the statement about not bringing Kenny back at all is the negative that makes it neutral--Just like my opinion of Kenny himself!
notice any attempt to give cabin group real character ended when Kenny appeared.
Oh, I did. It just took reviewing the entire season to realize it, but I did. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
Of course this actually rests on the ability of that writing staff to actually write believable conflict.
This would have been so much better than bringing Kenny back.
* It would have let Kenny's endings in S1 retain their impact.
* It woul… mored have actually given the cabin group a reason for being...notice any attempt to give cabin group real character ended when Kenny appeared.
Of course this actually rests on the ability of that writing staff to actually write believable conflict.
*
This would have been so much better than bringing Kenny back.
* It would have let Kenny's endings in S1 retain their impact.
* It woul… mored have actually given the cabin group a reason for being...notice any attempt to give cabin group real character ended when Kenny appeared.
Of course this actually rests on the ability of that writing staff to actually write believable conflict.
*
This would have been so much better than bringing Kenny back.
* It would have let Kenny's endings in S1 retain their impact.
* It woul… mored have actually given the cabin group a reason for being...notice any attempt to give cabin group real character ended when Kenny appeared.
Of course this actually rests on the ability of that writing staff to actually write believable conflict.
*
That's your opinion. The point was that any attempt to focus on them and develop their character arcs ended after Kenny got promoted to the main cast. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
It would have actually given the cabin group a reason for being...notice any attempt to give cabin group real character ended when Kenny appeared.
I'd have to disagree. The Cabin Group were shit well before Kenny even arrived.
That's your opinion. The point was that any attempt to focus on them and develop their character arcs ended after Kenny got promoted to the main cast. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
Yes, that's true, but even before Kenny came into focus in episode 2, the likes of Carlos and Alvin still hadn't been explored in any way, despite having an entire episode to do so. The fact is, the writers had no clue what to do with much of the Cabin Group's characters and so, they had to rely on a previously seen character, that being Kenny, to fix the problems with them and bring about some drama, something the likes of Alvin clearly wouldn't have been able to bring.
EDIT: Okay, I think I fixed whatever the fuck happened with the comments...
That's your opinion. The point was that any attempt to focus on them and develop their character arcs ended after Kenny got promoted to the main cast. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
EDIT: Da F@(% happened here?!
Still one user spreading his fucking negativity once again about a certain character i see. Yet no one else here is. Thank you to all that a… moreren't being like that simply because what that said person doing is totally unnecessary in this or any thread to be honest.
Anyway good thread, not seen this discussed before
Yes, that's true, but even before Kenny came into focus in episode 2, the likes of Carlos and Alvin still hadn't been explored in any way, despite having an entire episode to do so.
Explored: no, Setup: yes. As I had/will mentioned in a comment that may or may not have been posted, those two in particular were minor characters in the first two episodes, but there were hints that there was more to them than what was first presented and that they had some sort of specific history with Carver which is alluded to in the second episode in particular.
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too because, to quote myself here, "If your name is not Kenny, Carver, Bonnie, Kenny, Rebecca, or Sarah: You. Do not. Matter.". Kenny in particular was in every other scene and seemed to be driving the story forward at points, to the point that fellow rookie Sarita(his girlfriend, mind you) and newcomer Mike were borderline satellite characters to him, with little to no time spent developing them on their own.
The fact is, the writers had no clue what to do with much of the Cabin Group's characters and so, they had to rely on a previously seen character, that being Kenny, to fix the problems with them and bring about some drama, something the likes of Alvin clearly wouldn't have been able to bring.
In other words, they didn't have faith in their original material and so they resorted to bringing back Kenny to dazzle everyone with nostalgia and "fanservice" in hopes that it'll generate a better new direction and distract from the flaws of the story, when really it just made them more obvious. Oops.
I've said this to [whomeveritwas] at some point, but it is abundantly clear to me that Kenny was a crutch, hence why my positively neutral feelings towards him have been changing for the worst.
That's your opinion. The point was that any attempt to focus on them and develop their character arcs ended after Kenny got promoted to the … moremain cast. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
Yes, that's true, but even before Kenny came into focus in episode 2, the likes of Carlos and Alvin still hadn't been explored in any way, despite having an entire episode to do so. The fact is, the writers had no clue what to do with much of the Cabin Group's characters and so, they had to rely on a previously seen character, that being Kenny, to fix the problems with them and bring about some drama, something the likes of Alvin clearly wouldn't have been able to bring.
EDIT: Okay, I think I fixed whatever the fuck happened with the comments...
Someone creates a thread to discuss if Carlos had got Kenny's arc, everyone else here (and i have checked) have spoken without resorting to saying vile things about Kenny or ANY character, thus making the thread seem like a nice place to read and discuss things. But then one particular user wanted to spread his unneeded negativity onto the thread by saying extremely vile things that puts a dampner on everything.
Oh i don't know, maybe you should have a look dude, I forgot who it was but you might be able to identify the gremlin in the pipe work.
Someone creates a thread to discuss if Carlos had got Kenny's arc, everyone else here (and i have checked) have spoken without resorting to … moresaying vile things about Kenny or ANY character, thus making the thread seem like a nice place to read and discuss things. But then one particular user wanted to spread his unneeded negativity onto the thread by saying extremely vile things that puts a dampner on everything.
Oh i don't know, maybe you should have a look dude, I forgot who it was but you might be able to identify the gremlin in the pipe work.
I looked up and down the forums, the only comment of consequence I saw was...
...wait...
...Were you referring to me, Dan? Was I the Gremlin all along?
Oh and thank you for implying i'm unintelligent because you didn't understand what i meant (even though i know you do). I expected some form of insult from you i guess. Thanks again
I didn't imply that, I was only asking if your comment could be phrased in a more comprehensible manner cause I have no ideal what it means to be a different person outside the forums than when I'm on here.
Well, sorry to bother you. I'll make a few more passes on this discussion to see who exactly was spreading their negative views.
Then, once I do find it, the secrets will be forever revealed of that users' awful negativity.
You know what i mean.
Oh and thank you for implying i'm unintelligent because you didn't understand what i meant (even though i know you do). I expected some form of insult from you i guess. Thanks again
I didn't imply that, I was only asking if your comment could be phrased in a more comprehensible manner cause I have no ideal what it means to be a different person outside the forums than when I'm on here.
Read between the lines. Although i know you already did.
Then, once I do find it, the secrets will be forever revealed of that users' awful negativity.
Please get your own stand up comedy show. You'll be entertaining. Not to me but i'm sure others share the same sarcasm
I didn't imply that, I was only asking if your comment could be phrased in a more comprehensible manner cause I have no ideal what it means … moreto be a different person outside the forums than when I'm on here.
Well, sorry to bother you. I'll make a few more passes on this discussion to see who exactly was spreading their negative views.
Then, once I do find it, the secrets will be forever revealed of that users' awful negativity.
I didn't imply that, I was only asking if your comment could be phrased in a more comprehensible manner cause I have no ideal what it means … moreto be a different person outside the forums than when I'm on here.
Well, sorry to bother you. I'll make a few more passes on this discussion to see who exactly was spreading their negative views.
Then, once I do find it, the secrets will be forever revealed of that users' awful negativity.
Well said...though, and this is speculation on my part, TWAU had a better team of writers and so it seems to me that TTGS spread itself too thin at the time.
Yes, that's true, but even before Kenny came into focus in episode 2, the likes of Carlos and Alvin still hadn't been explored in any way, d… moreespite having an entire episode to do so.
Explored: no, Setup: yes. As I had/will mentioned in a comment that may or may not have been posted, those two in particular were minor characters in the first two episodes, but there were hints that there was more to them than what was first presented and that they had some sort of specific history with Carver which is alluded to in the second episode in particular.
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too becau… [view original content]
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too because, to quote myself here, "If your name is not Kenny, Carver, Bonnie, Kenny, Rebecca, or Sarah: You. Do not. Matter.". Kenny in particular was in every other scene and seemed to be driving the story forward at points, to the point that fellow rookie Sarita(his girlfriend, mind you) and newcomer Mike were borderline satellite characters to him, with little to no time spent developing them on their own.
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at points because out of that cast of blands, known as the Cabin Group, he was one of the few who could actually move it forward and make somewhat of an impact. Now, if the Cabin Group had been written better and didn't feel like such a bore fest, this wouldn't have been the case and the writers wouldn't have had to rely on Kenny as much. It just seemed that there was little to develop with much of those characters because they never had anything to begin with. Mike, Carlos, Alvin and maybe somebody else I've forgotten had no personalities and weren't anywhere as interesting, nor established as characters seen before, simply because, in my opinion, Telltale got lazy and didn't feel like writing them any compelling or relatable traits.
In other words, they didn't have faith in their original material and so they resorted to bringing back Kenny to dazzle everyone with nostalgia and "fanservice" in hopes that it'll generate a better new direction and distract from the flaws of the story, when really it just made them more obvious. Oops.
Um, yeah, pretty much... The writing for season 2 is fairly bad for the most part.
It's could also be in part because Kenny, as a character, has a pretty strong personality that can cause conflict, so he helped in establishing something I doubt the Cabin Group would've been able to do, unless, they had been written as different characters.
Yes, that's true, but even before Kenny came into focus in episode 2, the likes of Carlos and Alvin still hadn't been explored in any way, d… moreespite having an entire episode to do so.
Explored: no, Setup: yes. As I had/will mentioned in a comment that may or may not have been posted, those two in particular were minor characters in the first two episodes, but there were hints that there was more to them than what was first presented and that they had some sort of specific history with Carver which is alluded to in the second episode in particular.
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too becau… [view original content]
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at points because out of that cast of blands, known as the Cabin Group, he was one of the few who could actually move it forward and make somewhat of an impact.
That's the point though. If they had just given Kenny's character arc to Carlos out spread out the characters that move the plot forward, then the Cabin Group wouldn't have been such a "bore fest". Sure they seem that way at first, because they're careful and paranoid about Carver. But I bet if telltale didn't give all their writing effort to Kenny then the group could have progressed as very complex and interesting characters. A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually… more relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too because, to quote myself here, "If your name is not Kenny, Carver, Bonnie, Kenny, Rebecca, or Sarah: You. Do not. Matter.". Kenny in particular was in every other scene and seemed to be driving the story forward at points, to the point that fellow rookie Sarita(his girlfriend, mind you) and newcomer Mike were borderline satellite characters to him, with little to no time spent developing them on their own.
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at points because … [view original content]
Yeah, I agree to an extent. Telltale should've put some effort into the Cabin Group and should've created actual characters with actual personalities, and I admit that completely. But they didn't, so I think having Kenny back was the best bet because it was clear the writers didn't seem to have much ideas for the group, overall. Do I believe they could've progressed as complex characters? No, I don't because as I said, there just wasn't any thought put behind the characters from day one and it just became more evident as the episodes progressed.
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at point… mores because out of that cast of blands, known as the Cabin Group, he was one of the few who could actually move it forward and make somewhat of an impact.
That's the point though. If they had just given Kenny's character arc to Carlos out spread out the characters that move the plot forward, then the Cabin Group wouldn't have been such a "bore fest". Sure they seem that way at first, because they're careful and paranoid about Carver. But I bet if telltale didn't give all their writing effort to Kenny then the group could have progressed as very complex and interesting characters. A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
Well if that's the case how would giving Carlos Kenny's arc make him any better of a character, or even be spreading out the characters? My problem with this is that Carlos lacks both the character and personality to have Kenny's arc and it just wouldn't have been as good. You'd basically be giving Kenny's arc to a less interesting character. I agree with OneWayNoWay that the cabin group's failure to take off was them not being interesting enough rather than Kenny.
I even felt that when Walter came in to the storyline he was more interesting than most of the cabin group and I thought he was doing Luke's nice guy shtick much better than Luke himself and had already formed a more natural bond with Clementine. He would have also rose above the cabin group if he had lived.
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at point… mores because out of that cast of blands, known as the Cabin Group, he was one of the few who could actually move it forward and make somewhat of an impact.
That's the point though. If they had just given Kenny's character arc to Carlos out spread out the characters that move the plot forward, then the Cabin Group wouldn't have been such a "bore fest". Sure they seem that way at first, because they're careful and paranoid about Carver. But I bet if telltale didn't give all their writing effort to Kenny then the group could have progressed as very complex and interesting characters. A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
I'm going to use this comment as a response to both you and @OneWayNoWay
Carlos (and hopefully by extension, the Cabin Group) would not be a less interesting character than Kenny if they did the arc right. Of course Kenny has a temper, we've seen it in season 1, so i'de actually say it's less interesting because it was more or less expected from him, he was reliving a past arc. Only this time it was his temper that drove the story, not so much the story that drove his temper, like it did in season 1.
Now, giving Carlos a temper would be interesting, because up until episode 2 he seemed to be a cautious, level-headed man. But the OP is right, there were insurances that implicated he might have been more violent than he seemed. To see that implication come to fruition, to see him become a broken and angry man, would have been an interesting progression because 1) we might not have expected it from him as much as we would have Kenny, 2) his temper isn't so much the driver of the story as it would be the result of story events, and and 3) it would have evoked the previously built theme of trust more.
With Kenny, players don't necessarily build trust because they can judge him off who they knew in season 1. So some people already went into it with a "ride or die" attitude with Kenny that completely ruined that theme. If it were Carlos, the calculated alliance and trust could create even more complicated feelings for Clem, choosing to trust potentially dangerous people she doesn't know in order to survive.
A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
Well if that's the case how would giving Car… morelos Kenny's arc make him any better of a character, or even be spreading out the characters? My problem with this is that Carlos lacks both the character and personality to have Kenny's arc and it just wouldn't have been as good. You'd basically be giving Kenny's arc to a less interesting character. I agree with OneWayNoWay that the cabin group's failure to take off was them not being interesting enough rather than Kenny.
I even felt that when Walter came in to the storyline he was more interesting than most of the cabin group and I thought he was doing Luke's nice guy shtick much better than Luke himself and had already formed a more natural bond with Clementine. He would have also rose above the cabin group if he had lived.
I even felt that when Walter came in to the storyline he was more interesting than most of the cabin group and I thought he was doing Luke's nice guy shtick much better than Luke himself and had already formed a more natural bond with Clementine. He would have also rose above the cabin group if he had lived.
Not to derail too much here, but what made Walter work in one episode where Luke just kinda faffed about for two/three episodes was that he had a defined motivation, he had an explained backstory, and he had an actual established outlook that was so unexpected that he stood out despite(or rather, because of) being Kenny's friend.
I think Luke was set up as something of a similar light to Carley: someone whose friendly and understanding demeanor would make him very likable and appealing to the main character and function as someone she can trust to be there for them. Or, as I've seen a few people accurately say, a new Lee. The (realistic and nonbiased) problem with that is that it feels like there was so much emphasis on him being this ideal hero that there was no substantial effort put into him being a character.
A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
Well if that's the case how would giving Car… morelos Kenny's arc make him any better of a character, or even be spreading out the characters? My problem with this is that Carlos lacks both the character and personality to have Kenny's arc and it just wouldn't have been as good. You'd basically be giving Kenny's arc to a less interesting character. I agree with OneWayNoWay that the cabin group's failure to take off was them not being interesting enough rather than Kenny.
I even felt that when Walter came in to the storyline he was more interesting than most of the cabin group and I thought he was doing Luke's nice guy shtick much better than Luke himself and had already formed a more natural bond with Clementine. He would have also rose above the cabin group if he had lived.
Now, if the Cabin Group had been written better and didn't feel like such a bore fest, this wouldn't have been the case and the writers wouldn't have had to rely on Kenny as much.
It's could also be in part because Kenny, as a character, has a** pretty strong personality that can cause conflict**, so he helped in establishing something I doubt the Cabin Group would've been able to do, unless, they had been written as different characters.
And this is sorta a primary example why Kenny having so much focus is baffling when you really thing about it. This may just be a misconception born from experiencing continuing stories under different writers but I sometimes got the vibe that it's easier to write for a brand spankin' new character than a pre-established one because there's a lot more freedom with what you can do compared to one that has already been developed. The story should've been written in a way where you focus the bulk of your writing efforts into making the Cabin Group actually stand out amongst each other even more than they did before and also develop their respective arcs and dynamics with Clementine, Kenny, and Carver, three characters who should've been easy to write for due to their inherent complexity and presence as the main protagonist, a returning major character, and the main villain.
When I came into this Season back in June, one of the few spoilery things I knew about it going in was that Kenny returns (with a greybeard and a missing eye) as a mentor figure for Clementine. While I''ve stated the problems with using him the way he actually was(which I'll repeat below), having him as a mentor made a lot of sense: Clementine was established in Season 1 as being very innocent, moral, and empathetic to the point of expecting Lee and the others to avoid killing people like Larry, Danny, or especially Ben despite the problems that they caused; having Kenny play the mentor figure(a role he would NOT be expected to play) was a brilliant move because it would serve to highlight just how empathetic and clever she thinks compared to his brash and opinionated actions. His strong personality being slightly demoted to a major supporting role is perfect because there wouldn't need to be as much effort put into writing him. Just remember to show when he'd second guess his rash decisions, show how losing what he lost has changed him over time, and keep his positive traits in mind and you're all set!
The main flaw with using him as a main character in a similar way that he was used with Lee is that Clementine is NOT Lee. As I point out in my Character Foils topic, Kenny is a character who was specifically meant to contrast with Lee by showing everything that Lee himself could be capable of but doesn't really have unless specifically highlighted: emotional outbursts with an emphasis on anger, a successful family man, selfish tendencies, and a motto of "I did what I had to do". Clementine was such inherently different character from Lee that expecting to get similar results from simply matching her up with Kenny was not gonna happen, at least not to the same level. The fact that she was written as what some people would call a much more neutral character also didn't help, so the story started to become less of "Clementine and the Refugee's Journey" and more of "The Kenny Show!" during Episode 3.
I usually haaaate bringing up my own biases when talking about this sort of things, but I also mentioned in that very topic that a character like Sarah or Jane(and some people have mentioned Nick, but I personally saw him as more of a Luke-based foil) seemed like a better choice, but that's a topic for another day.
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually… more relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too because, to quote myself here, "If your name is not Kenny, Carver, Bonnie, Kenny, Rebecca, or Sarah: You. Do not. Matter.". Kenny in particular was in every other scene and seemed to be driving the story forward at points, to the point that fellow rookie Sarita(his girlfriend, mind you) and newcomer Mike were borderline satellite characters to him, with little to no time spent developing them on their own.
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at points because … [view original content]
And this is sorta a primary example why Kenny having so much focus is baffling when you really thing about it. This may just be a misconception born from experiencing continuing stories under different writers but I sometimes got the vibe that it's easier to write for a brand spankin' new character than a pre-established one because there's a lot more freedom with what you can do compared to one that has already been developed. The story should've been written in a way where you focus the bulk of your writing efforts into making the Cabin Group actually stand out amongst each other even more than they did before and also develop their respective arcs and dynamics with Clementine, Kenny, and Carver, three characters who should've been easy to write for due to their inherent complexity and presence as the main protagonist, a returning major character, and the main villain.
Everything there, I can completely agree with. If only the writers had spent a little more time with developing the characters within the Cabin Group and as you pointed out in your previous comment with Walter's view on the world, had took the chance to bring unique traits that we hadn't seen before, Kenny could've taken more of a backseat and we could've been met with some new engaging characters.
But, I guess Telltale felt it easier instead to just use something (or someone, in this case) that had worked in the past, instead of being braver and more creative with constructing something new. I won't lie and say I wasn't happy when Kenny returned, but I also can't deny that relying on him instead of creating new characters to drive home the plot, was pure lazy writing. But with how things turned out, I do think it was probably for the best. Not saying it was right, per say, but that due to the issues with the Cabin Group, it was the wisest decision.
The main flaw with using him as a main character in a similar way that he was used with Lee is that Clementine is NOT Lee. As I point out in my Character Foils topic, Kenny is a character who was specifically meant to contrast with Lee by showing everything that Lee himself could be capable of but doesn't really have unless specifically highlighted: emotional outbursts with an emphasis on anger, a successful family man, selfish tendencies, and a motto of "I did what I had to do". Clementine was such inherently different character from Lee that expecting to get similar results from simply matching her up with Kenny was not gonna happen, at least not to the same level. The fact that she was written as what some people would call a much more neutral character also didn't help, so the story started to become less of "Clementine and the Refugee's Journey" and more of "The Kenny Show!" during Episode 3.
Well, I see your point, but I think it's important to remind ourselves of what Clementine is- a child. Of course, she's going to be very innocent and have a simplistic view on what is right and what is wrong, but for me, the main thing that drove me to season 2 was that we'd be able to (and maybe still could) shape more of Clementine's personality as she grew older. We'd be able to have the option to form her into being more like Kenny or whoever else were considered mentors in the game (Jane, Luke?), by either disagreeing or agreeing with their decisions. Yes, Clementine isn't Lee, but due to her still being so young in both seasons, she's not really going to have too many distinctive personality attributes just yet, outside what is to be expected from someone of her age (kind, caring, innocent) so that's why it was important to have her depend on others, like Kenny, to influence who she may become. Who she ends up choosing in the end, whether it be Kenny, Jane or neither, would hopefully determine what way she'll eventually be in season 3, which is why she's, as you said, quite neutral in the second season.
Now, if the Cabin Group had been written better and didn't feel like such a bore fest, this wouldn't have been the case and the writers woul… moredn't have had to rely on Kenny as much.
It's could also be in part because Kenny, as a character, has a** pretty strong personality that can cause conflict**, so he helped in establishing something I doubt the Cabin Group would've been able to do, unless, they had been written as different characters.
And this is sorta a primary example why Kenny having so much focus is baffling when you really thing about it. This may just be a misconception born from experiencing continuing stories under different writers but I sometimes got the vibe that it's easier to write for a brand spankin' new character than a pre-established one because there's a lot more freedom with what you can do compared to one that has already been developed. The story should've been written in a way where you focus the bulk of… [view original content]
Carlos (and hopefully by extension, the Cabin Group) would not be a less interesting character than Kenny if they did the arc right. Of course Kenny has a temper, we've seen it in season 1, so i'de actually say it's less interesting because it was more or less expected from him, he was reliving a past arc. Only this time it was his temper that drove the story, not so much the story that drove his temper, like it did in season 1.
But the thing is, the writers didn't do his arc right. Maybe Carlos could've been a really interesting character with strong motivations and a compelling personality to allow him to stand out, amongst the other possibilities they could've done with the Cabin group if they were different characters, but in the end, he and the others weren't. He was bland, forgetful and ultimately, pointless, dying without have left a shred of impact for anyone (besides, maybe Sarah, but that's quickly forgotten). And I wouldn't say Kenny was reliving a past arc , really. There's no doubt that in both seasons the man has a bad temper, but in Season 2, it's very clear to see Kenny is actually, quite frankly, unstable and broken, whilst in season 1, he did react with anger quite a bit, but it never really drove into the territory of appearing that he was genuinely suffering from serious issues with controlling his emotions at times.
Now, giving Carlos a temper would be interesting, because up until episode 2 he seemed to be a cautious, level-headed man. But the OP is right, there were insurances that implicated he might have been more violent than he seemed. To see that implication come to fruition, to see him become a broken and angry man, would have been an interesting progression because 1) we might not have expected it from him as much as we would have Kenny, 2) his temper isn't so much the driver of the story as it would be the result of story events, and and 3) it would have evoked the previously built theme of trust more.
I've outlined why I think Carlos having Kenny's arc just wouldn't have worked as well before, but to be honest, I don't really mind repeating myself. With Kenny, there's already an attachment, a view of the character and whatever you think of him seen from season 1, so his temper and behaviour being worse in season 2 evokes an emotional reaction from the players, whether you grow to hate him more or sympathise with him, no matter what, it leaves an impact with you, whilst if that had been Carlos, well, it wouldn't have been the same because this is a character we don't share the same history with.
There's also the facture that we, as Clementine, have laid witness to what made Kenny this way, seeing Kat and Duck's deaths, and that can deeply effect how one might attempt to understand his actions because we've seen what he's been through. With Carlos, we'd never get to really see where this apparent violent nature emerged from, as the OP said, it was hinted that it was there well before the events of season 2, so it wouldn't effect our view of him as a character, nor give us as much reason to feel sympathy when he's acting like a dick.
I'm going to use this comment as a response to both you and @OneWayNoWay
Carlos (and hopefully by extension, the Cabin Group) would not b… moree a less interesting character than Kenny if they did the arc right. Of course Kenny has a temper, we've seen it in season 1, so i'de actually say it's less interesting because it was more or less expected from him, he was reliving a past arc. Only this time it was his temper that drove the story, not so much the story that drove his temper, like it did in season 1.
Now, giving Carlos a temper would be interesting, because up until episode 2 he seemed to be a cautious, level-headed man. But the OP is right, there were insurances that implicated he might have been more violent than he seemed. To see that implication come to fruition, to see him become a broken and angry man, would have been an interesting progression because 1) we might not have expected it from him as much as we would have Kenny, 2) hi… [view original content]
But the thing is, the writers didn't do his arc right.
Yes, I know that. But we're arguing hypotheticals. I'm saying IF they gave Carlos KEnny's arc and IF they wrote it well and IF the Cabin Group was more fleshed out then they could be just as if not more interesting than Kenny and we wouldn't need Kenny to fill the void.
And if Carlos was given KEnny's arc, it's implied that he would share some of his redeeming qualities too, like giving Carver the walkie talkie to protect Clementine, so there would still be reason to trust him and form some sort of emotional attachment to him. Would it have been as strong of an emotional attachment as Kenny? Maybe not, but if "trust" is a bigger theme than "attachment" in this season then it wouldn't necessarily have to be that way in order to still have an impactful and meaningful experience.
Carlos (and hopefully by extension, the Cabin Group) would not be a less interesting character than Kenny if they did the arc right. Of cour… morese Kenny has a temper, we've seen it in season 1, so i'de actually say it's less interesting because it was more or less expected from him, he was reliving a past arc. Only this time it was his temper that drove the story, not so much the story that drove his temper, like it did in season 1.
But the thing is, the writers didn't do his arc right. Maybe Carlos could've been a really interesting character with strong motivations and a compelling personality to allow him to stand out, amongst the other possibilities they could've done with the Cabin group if they were different characters, but in the end, he and the others weren't. He was bland, forgetful and ultimately, pointless, dying without have left a shred of impact for anyone (besides, maybe Sarah, but that's quickly forgotten). And I wouldn't… [view original content]
I honestly think if they hadn't brought Kenny back, the writers still wouldn't have written the cabin group better anyway. The whole of season 2 had bad points to do with character development. Sure a lot of focus was on Clem and Kenny but to be completely honest, the only characters I cared about in season 2 were Clem, Kenny, Christa and Omid, all of whom were season 1 characters
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at point… mores because out of that cast of blands, known as the Cabin Group, he was one of the few who could actually move it forward and make somewhat of an impact.
That's the point though. If they had just given Kenny's character arc to Carlos out spread out the characters that move the plot forward, then the Cabin Group wouldn't have been such a "bore fest". Sure they seem that way at first, because they're careful and paranoid about Carver. But I bet if telltale didn't give all their writing effort to Kenny then the group could have progressed as very complex and interesting characters. A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
Not saying it was right, per say, but that due to the issues with the Cabin Group, it was the wisest decision.
For discussions sake, what was your take on the issues with each member of the Cabin Group?
Well, I see your point, but I think it's important to remind ourselves of what Clementine is- a child. Of course, she's going to be very innocent and have a simplistic view on what is right and what is wrong, but for me, the main thing that drove me to season 2 was that we'd be able to (and maybe still could) shape more of Clementine's personality as she grew older. We'd be able to have the option to form her into being more like Kenny or whoever else were considered mentors in the game (Jane, Luke?), by either disagreeing or agreeing with their decisions. Yes, Clementine isn't Lee, but due to her still being so young in both seasons, she's not really going to have too many distinctive personality attributes just yet, outside what is to be expected from someone of her age (kind, caring, innocent) so that's why it was important to have her depend on others, like Kenny, to influence who she may become. Who she ends up choosing in the end, whether it be Kenny, Jane or neither, would hopefully determine what way she'll eventually be in season 3, which is why she's, as you said, quite neutral in the second season.
Hmm, I see your point since the final episode was more or less based around that idea, but that unfortunately doesn't justify her stance. What I meant when I said neutral is that many of her choices in the later episodes felt less like decisions she happened to agree with depending on the playstyle and more like she was just choosing a side without much personal investment. I've seen others agree that Clementine in Season 1 had more character than she does in Season 2. While part of that is due to the change from NPC to PC, it's still a major issue because she had a relatively defined character in spite of or rather because she was a child: she had goals(find parents, , survive), virtues(helpful, merciful, fraternity), and weaknesses(naivete, fear, size), all of which affected how players went through Season 1 and how they reacted to certain things in Season 2. And considering certain earlier scenes got flak for sometimes making her act out of character, this makes the notion of her having no character at all lose weight.
I believe the first two episodes are usually cited as favorites partly because they treat Clementine as an individual with feelings, thoughts, and motivations of her own that drive her through her experiences. For as bland as he seems to many people, I felt like Luke had a better chemistry with her than Kenny did simply because he asked her about these things and usually trusted her to be able to do certain things, even if it came at the comparative cost of not standing out much or doing anything spectacular himself. Heck, part of the reason I was so supportive of the Kenny as a mentor idea was because of her being skilled and moral but hesitant while he's stubborn and impulsive but determined would make for an interestingly unconventional take on the dynamic, especially up against the likes of tyrannical Carver and unassuming Arvo. However, around the halfway point of the Season, Clementine stopped having as much character interaction outside of Kenny and just seemed to be there out of obligation at certain points, with Episode 3 being the weakest in my opinion in part because she had little to no significance in the episode: Kenny was driving a little too much of the story and most of the things centered around Clementine felt like it just to back up another character or would end up being pointless, which gave me the feeling of being patronized. This is another example of a recurring issue with running character arcs, namely the fact that many things are establish and/or setup but get little payoff later. Depending on your choices, she can establish things blame herself for Lee's death, resolve to find Christa, want to help Sarah take care of herself like Lee helped her, and express guilt that she got people killed. However, most of those things kinda get dropped after a while.
Since this Season was supposed to be about how she handles herself and coexists with others in the apocalypse, the fact that she feels like lacked some independence and identity of her own is a serious flaw.
And this is sorta a primary example why Kenny having so much focus is baffling when you really thing about it. This may just be a misconcept… moreion born from experiencing continuing stories under different writers but I sometimes got the vibe that it's easier to write for a brand spankin' new character than a pre-established one because there's a lot more freedom with what you can do compared to one that has already been developed. The story should've been written in a way where you focus the bulk of your writing efforts into making the Cabin Group actually stand out amongst each other even more than they did before and also develop their respective arcs and dynamics with Clementine, Kenny, and Carver, three characters who should've been easy to write for due to their inherent complexity and presence as the main protagonist, a returning major character, and the main villain.
Everything there, I can completely agree with. If only the write… [view original content]
For discussions sake, what was your take on the issues with each member of the Cabin Group?
Luke - While a likable enough fella, he lacked having much qualities outside of being the "nice guy". I also felt sometimes the writers were even inconsistent with his basic personality, like seen with how he treated his apparent best friend, Nick and how he just quickly got over his death. Overall, though, I didn't have much issues with Luke, really, just would've preferred if he was a little more interesting.
Sarah- Sarah's not really much of a problem, to be honest. The writers seemed to know what they wanted Sarah to be, though I did find her a little annoying and a tad bit whinny. I know you're a fan of hers, so I'll try to restrain from insulting her too much, but yeah, overall, she was fine. Except, of course, the horrible way they decided to write her out and how pretty much all the characters just sorta went "Sarah's dead? Ah, sure, who cares, we have AJ now".
Nick- It seemed like he was meant to be the Ben of the season, the character who means well but always fucks things up despite his intentions. But the writers didn't seem to care for his character or bothered to develop him, so it was difficult for me to care either. He had very little screen time and it seemed that he was just there, in the end, to be little more than a background character. He could've had potential, maybe, but it's hard to tell because we hardly got to know the guy before he was dead.
Rebecca- First, she's a bitch, who Clementine could've blackmailed into being nicer to her, so you'd expect that maybe Rebecca was going to be a character who brought conflict, but NOPE, by the next episode, she's had a complete personality translate and has suddenly forgotten what her view on Clem originally was. She's a character who lacked any distinctive personality traits, just being sorta nice, up until dying after giving birth to AJ.
Carlos- Another character who had no distinctive personality traits. He was a protective dad, and...? That's it, so it was very difficult to give two fucks about the guy when he only seemed to have one purpose, being Sarah's dad, and unlike Luke, he wasn't even likable. I know I say this a lot, but god, the fella was just incredibly bland. There really was no thought put into him at all.
Alvin- Really the same as Carlos. Except he had a few moments that suggested he was generic nice guy, but other than that, there was nothing to see or explore with him.
I believe the first two episodes are usually cited as favorites partly because they treat Clementine as an individual with feelings, thoughts, and motivations of her own that drive her through her experiences. For as bland as he seems to many people, I felt like Luke had a better chemistry with her than Kenny did simply because he asked her about these things and usually trusted her to be able to do certain things, even if it came at the comparative cost of not standing out much or doing anything spectacular himself. Heck, part of the reason I was so supportive of the Kenny as a mentor idea was because of her being skilled and moral but hesitant while he's stubborn and impulsive but determined would make for an interestingly unconventional take on the dynamic, especially up against the likes of tyrannical Carver and unassuming Arvo. However, around the halfway point of the Season, Clementine stopped having as much character interaction outside of Kenny and just seemed to be there out of obligation at certain points, with Episode 3 being the weakest in my opinion in part because she had little to no significance in the episode: Kenny was driving a little too much of the story and most of the things centered around Clementine felt like it just to back up another character or would end up being pointless, which gave me the feeling of being patronized. This is another example of a recurring issue with running character arcs, namely the fact that many things are establish and/or setup but get little payoff later. Depending on your choices, she can establish things blame herself for Lee's death, resolve to find Christa, want to help Sarah take care of herself like Lee helped her, and express guilt that she got people killed. However, most of those things kinda get dropped after a while.
Actually, I agree. It did seem that as Season 2 progressed, Clementine's character seemed to be less of a central focus, instead just being there to observe the what was happening, but not really be completely part of it or creating it. Kenny and Jane drove the story and while Clem might have the odd contribution, most of what happens in the story is because of the choice of someone else. An example would be the Arvo choice, where we can choose to steal the meds or leave it, but either way, Jane makes the decision to threaten Arvo and thus, moves the story forward by leading the Russians to seek revenge with their ambush. Everything, just seems, out of Clementine's control and while that's in part because she's still only a child, being the main protagonist, she should have a greater role in the story. It became less of what Clementine wanted, but more of what other characters, particularly Kenny, wanted, and whether she'd choose to agree or disagree, but either way, Kenny will still do what Kenny wants, so it's as though Clementine isn't really all that important in a story where she's meant to be the lead.
Not saying it was right, per say, but that due to the issues with the Cabin Group, it was the wisest decision.
For discussions sake,… more what was your take on the issues with each member of the Cabin Group?
Well, I see your point, but I think it's important to remind ourselves of what Clementine is- a child. Of course, she's going to be very innocent and have a simplistic view on what is right and what is wrong, but for me, the main thing that drove me to season 2 was that we'd be able to (and maybe still could) shape more of Clementine's personality as she grew older. We'd be able to have the option to form her into being more like Kenny or whoever else were considered mentors in the game (Jane, Luke?), by either disagreeing or agreeing with their decisions. Yes, Clementine isn't Lee, but due to her still being so young in both seasons, she's not really going to have too many distinctive personality attributes just yet, outside wha… [view original content]
First off, you forgot Pete. Now, with that outta the way, let's look over these:
Luke
Yeah, that's the general consensus. I been planning on doing a critique about him for a while now.
Don't quite see some people's complaints about his interaction with Nick.
Sarah
Thanks for the consideration dude; I would've been perfectly fine if you could describe legitimate issues with her, but I appreciate it anyway. I really loved Sarah in part because she was a complex experience: she could be endearing, observant, caring, and meek on one hand, yet annoying, hysterical, immature, dopey, and a fucking chatterbox on the other. She is almost certainly the number one thing that made Clementine's journey feel important to me, since she would reasonably have a soft spot for someone who can't defend themselves and want to go against her dad's well-intentioned but extreme methods to help her.
And yes, her death was theworst moment of the Season to me not only because it wasted a perfectly good character for no good reason, but also because of the multitude problems it causes.
Nick
I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't much of a fan at first. I just couldn't get into him for whatever reason, but seeing the love others have for him and some explanations as to why that is has slowly been winning me over. While Sarah was understandably well-developed, Nick was a lot more complex than he had to be. It's not that he didn't have any development but that he suddenly ceased to have any real purpose and was severely demoted. Plus, whether I truly like him or not, he is technically one reason why Episode 2 was the strongest in my opinion.
Rebecca
Ooh boy, you know things aren't well when even I say Rebecca was the worst member of the Cabin Group. I've only seen like three or four people who said they like her. And you touched on the elephant's head there: rather than have her bitchiness decrease as the Season goes on as Clementine grows on her, she apologizes for her behavior but ceases to be a bitch for the rest of the Season. As you said, this should've made her a character who could intentionally cause conflict and given her some actual character development. The weird thing is she technically had the most complete arc of all the Cabin Group--it's just that it was so shallow, by the numbers, and potentially offensive that it didn't amount to much. I mean, this is a woman who had an uncomfortable relationship with the villain and has insecurities about her pregnancy burdening the group-- why didn't this work?!
Carlos
Much like Rebecca, Carlos could've and/or should've been a character who would cause conflict. He had something resembling an arc, but he had so little screentime and interaction with Clementine that most people only remember the bad stuff. Plus, look at what thread were talking about this in.
Alvin
Ironically enough, he was the only member that I completely liked from the get-go. Which is why I have a hard time describing him outside of "I like him." And honestly, that's another testament to how disappointing Carver and Episode 3 in general was.
Actually, I agree. It did seem that as Season 2 progressed, Clementine's character seemed to be less of a central focus, instead just being there to observe the what was happening, but not really be completely part of it or creating it. Kenny and Jane drove the story and while Clem might have the odd contribution, most of what happens in the story is because of the choice of someone else. An example would be the Arvo choice, where we can choose to steal the meds or leave it, but either way, Jane makes the decision to threaten Arvo and thus, moves the story forward by leading the Russians to seek revenge with their ambush. Everything, just seems, out of Clementine's control and while that's in part because she's still only a child, being the main protagonist, she should have a greater role in the story. It became less of what Clementine wanted, but more of what other characters, particularly Kenny, wanted, and whether she'd choose to agree or disagree, but either way, Kenny will still do what Kenny wants, so it's as though Clementine isn't really all that important in a story where she's meant to be the lead.
The fact that there are plenty of child protagonists out there makes this all the more disappointing because we had the first Season already. Since Clementine had a defined character while also being ripe enough for development of her own, they really should've been able to tell a cohesive story with her in the lead. Even if there were different writers, you have an existing proof of concept as to how things should be done and a bar that has already been set. All you have to do is reach for it and give it your best effort. I tend to give characters like Sarah, Michelle, Arvo, and even Jane so much attention because they represent aspects of the first Season's quality of writing that I wanted expected more of in Season 2 and even things I thought only Season 2 would be able to do with it's tone.
As I said in my patchjob critique about Kenny, it felt like he constantly took things that Clementine should've gotten and even a few things she already had for himself :
Luke's character was driven towards being in competition with him for the sake of having controversy with no payoff
Carver ended up having more in common with him despite the egotist's insistence that he and Clementine are alike, making it a poorly utilized cliche at best and a weak attempt to make Clementine feel special at worst
Sarita and Mike have their potential and original significance ignored in favor of acting as his personal back up for most of their screentime
Carlos and Nick, his biggest detractors after Luke, both die sudden deaths that are primarily outside of their control, even with their respective arcs and relationships with Clementine being abruptly underplayed
He got to be the one who bonded with Rebecca and guided her through her final stages of pregnancy instead of Clementine or Sarah, despite his resume being "I had a son once." It's also worth noting Rebecca and Alvin(who I don't think he said a word to) are portrayed in a positive light and consistently remembered after their deaths due in part to putting her trust in him and being the parents of the baby who would motivate Kenny to behave much more actively aggressive towards friend and foe alike.
Sarah was the only major exception, which is odd considering all the parallels she has with him, Duck, Ben, and Season1!Clementine, not to mention that she was one of the only original characters to not disapprove of him in any way and thus could've been used to show his positive traits more often. And then came Jane....
Arvo was more forced into being a villain than he should've been because "Kenny said so" rather than through any true villainy on his part and ironically becomes embittered because of Kenny's constant and sometimes unnecessary abuse of him despite his submissive nature, making many question why Arvo didn't try to kill Kenny over Clementine
Mike and Bonnie are put in a position where their legitimate fears and concerns lose some power because they're allegedly taking Arvo and his belongings to safety without stopping to consider the welfare of AJ despite their previous caring of him and Rebecca
And even Jane was pushed into being his opponent in the final episode for the sake of having him fight someone...even though Luke had been set up for that since the second episode. And depending on your choice, she even gets killed by him after she (ironically, successfully) tried to show Clementine how dangerous he can be.
If anything, a majority of the endings are the ultimate proof that the writers cared more about Kenny than anyone else given that he's always portrayed in a humbled fashion despite all the aggressive actions he did and there was a lot more emotion and effort put into his endings compared to Jane's and especially Clementine's. I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to turn this into a rant against Kenny, but like I've said before, it feels like he tried to act as a cover up for the shortcomings of the story and characters but only ended up making them more obvious.
For discussions sake, what was your take on the issues with each member of the Cabin Group?
Luke - While a likable enough fella, he … morelacked having much qualities outside of being the "nice guy". I also felt sometimes the writers were even inconsistent with his basic personality, like seen with how he treated his apparent best friend, Nick and how he just quickly got over his death. Overall, though, I didn't have much issues with Luke, really, just would've preferred if he was a little more interesting.
Sarah- Sarah's not really much of a problem, to be honest. The writers seemed to know what they wanted Sarah to be, though I did find her a little annoying and a tad bit whinny. I know you're a fan of hers, so I'll try to restrain from insulting her too much, but yeah, overall, she was fine. Except, of course, the horrible way they decided to write her out and how pretty much all the characters just sorta went "Sarah's dead? Ah, sure,… [view original content]
Comments
lmfao @ Kenny
I kind of like this better than what we got. I mean Kenny had a good character arc in season 1 that was conclusive. I love him to death but season was too Kenny heavy for all you filthy moderates I presume.
Plus the Carlos we got was.... well he's best remembered for not knowing a dog bite from a walker bite, not knowing how big a small house is, and "Luke, he's becoming a danger to the group." And that last one wasn't even him! Sarah wasn't much better.
The only downfall is that the history with Kenny made the final 2 choices in No Going Back all the more difficult as you know Kenny as a tragic fallen figure and how he got to that point rather than just as that crazy guy who beat Carver to death with a crowbar.
This would have been so much better than bringing Kenny back.
Of course this actually rests on the ability of that writing staff to actually write believable conflict.
*
While I appreciate a positive comment on this topic, I'm have to point out that the statement about not bringing Kenny back at all is the negative that makes it neutral--Just like my opinion of Kenny himself!
Oh, I did. It just took reviewing the entire season to realize it, but I did. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
Exactly.
I got what you were saying about Sarah taking Carver. I just wasn't sure if I was happy with it or not.
I'd have to disagree. The Cabin Group were shit well before Kenny even arrived.
[removed]
That's your opinion. The point was that any attempt to focus on them and develop their character arcs ended after Kenny got promoted to the main cast. Rebecca, Sarah, and Luke are very technical exceptions, but eh.
EDIT: Da F@(% happened here?!
Yes, that's true, but even before Kenny came into focus in episode 2, the likes of Carlos and Alvin still hadn't been explored in any way, despite having an entire episode to do so. The fact is, the writers had no clue what to do with much of the Cabin Group's characters and so, they had to rely on a previously seen character, that being Kenny, to fix the problems with them and bring about some drama, something the likes of Alvin clearly wouldn't have been able to bring.
EDIT: Okay, I think I fixed whatever the fuck happened with the comments...
Whose the person spreading their awful negativity here Dan?
Tell me, so that I can point and laugh at them for their different viewpoints...
Explored: no, Setup: yes. As I had/will mentioned in a comment that may or may not have been posted, those two in particular were minor characters in the first two episodes, but there were hints that there was more to them than what was first presented and that they had some sort of specific history with Carver which is alluded to in the second episode in particular.
Contrary to what everyone has been saying, Kenny's introduction didn't sideline the other characters because the second episode was actually relatively balanced considering the huge cast, even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis. It was the next episode, which is the weakest one in my opinion due to being bare as f@ck, where the sidelining first struck and it struck hard too because, to quote myself here, "If your name is not Kenny, Carver, Bonnie, Kenny, Rebecca, or Sarah: You. Do not. Matter.". Kenny in particular was in every other scene and seemed to be driving the story forward at points, to the point that fellow rookie Sarita(his girlfriend, mind you) and newcomer Mike were borderline satellite characters to him, with little to no time spent developing them on their own.
In other words, they didn't have faith in their original material and so they resorted to bringing back Kenny to dazzle everyone with nostalgia and "fanservice" in hopes that it'll generate a better new direction and distract from the flaws of the story, when really it just made them more obvious. Oops.
I've said this to [whomeveritwas] at some point, but it is abundantly clear to me that Kenny was a crutch, hence why my positively neutral feelings towards him have been changing for the worst.
Someone creates a thread to discuss if Carlos had got Kenny's arc, everyone else here (and i have checked) have spoken without resorting to saying vile things about Kenny or ANY character, thus making the thread seem like a nice place to read and discuss things. But then one particular user wanted to spread his unneeded negativity onto the thread by saying extremely vile things that puts a dampner on everything.
Oh i don't know, maybe you should have a look dude, I forgot who it was but you might be able to identify the gremlin in the pipe work.
I looked up and down the forums, the only comment of consequence I saw was...
...wait...
...Were you referring to me, Dan? Was I the Gremlin all along?
I really, really hope you aren't like the way you are on the internet in real life dude. I really hope you are a different person
I'm afraid I don't understand.
Can you phrase the comment in a more intelligible way, please?
You know what i mean.
Oh and thank you for implying i'm unintelligent because you didn't understand what i meant (even though i know you do). I expected some form of insult from you i guess. Thanks again
I didn't imply that, I was only asking if your comment could be phrased in a more comprehensible manner cause I have no ideal what it means to be a different person outside the forums than when I'm on here.
Well, sorry to bother you. I'll make a few more passes on this discussion to see who exactly was spreading their negative views.
Then, once I do find it, the secrets will be forever revealed of that users' awful negativity.
Read between the lines. Although i know you already did.
Please get your own stand up comedy show. You'll be entertaining. Not to me but i'm sure others share the same sarcasm
Good day Mr K.
Apologies if you weren't calling me unintelligent. I just thought you were
Accepted.
Well said...though, and this is speculation on my part, TWAU had a better team of writers and so it seems to me that TTGS spread itself too thin at the time.
You're correct again, but I'd have to disagree with you that Kenny coming into focus was a bad thing. Kenny drove the story forward at points because out of that cast of blands, known as the Cabin Group, he was one of the few who could actually move it forward and make somewhat of an impact. Now, if the Cabin Group had been written better and didn't feel like such a bore fest, this wouldn't have been the case and the writers wouldn't have had to rely on Kenny as much. It just seemed that there was little to develop with much of those characters because they never had anything to begin with. Mike, Carlos, Alvin and maybe somebody else I've forgotten had no personalities and weren't anywhere as interesting, nor established as characters seen before, simply because, in my opinion, Telltale got lazy and didn't feel like writing them any compelling or relatable traits.
Um, yeah, pretty much... The writing for season 2 is fairly bad for the most part.
It's could also be in part because Kenny, as a character, has a pretty strong personality that can cause conflict, so he helped in establishing something I doubt the Cabin Group would've been able to do, unless, they had been written as different characters.
That's the point though. If they had just given Kenny's character arc to Carlos out spread out the characters that move the plot forward, then the Cabin Group wouldn't have been such a "bore fest". Sure they seem that way at first, because they're careful and paranoid about Carver. But I bet if telltale didn't give all their writing effort to Kenny then the group could have progressed as very complex and interesting characters. A man's temper shouldn't have to be relied on to drive nearly every point in the story.
Yeah, I agree to an extent. Telltale should've put some effort into the Cabin Group and should've created actual characters with actual personalities, and I admit that completely. But they didn't, so I think having Kenny back was the best bet because it was clear the writers didn't seem to have much ideas for the group, overall. Do I believe they could've progressed as complex characters? No, I don't because as I said, there just wasn't any thought put behind the characters from day one and it just became more evident as the episodes progressed.
Iol yes!
Well if that's the case how would giving Carlos Kenny's arc make him any better of a character, or even be spreading out the characters? My problem with this is that Carlos lacks both the character and personality to have Kenny's arc and it just wouldn't have been as good. You'd basically be giving Kenny's arc to a less interesting character. I agree with OneWayNoWay that the cabin group's failure to take off was them not being interesting enough rather than Kenny.
I even felt that when Walter came in to the storyline he was more interesting than most of the cabin group and I thought he was doing Luke's nice guy shtick much better than Luke himself and had already formed a more natural bond with Clementine. He would have also rose above the cabin group if he had lived.
I'm going to use this comment as a response to both you and @OneWayNoWay
Carlos (and hopefully by extension, the Cabin Group) would not be a less interesting character than Kenny if they did the arc right. Of course Kenny has a temper, we've seen it in season 1, so i'de actually say it's less interesting because it was more or less expected from him, he was reliving a past arc. Only this time it was his temper that drove the story, not so much the story that drove his temper, like it did in season 1.
Now, giving Carlos a temper would be interesting, because up until episode 2 he seemed to be a cautious, level-headed man. But the OP is right, there were insurances that implicated he might have been more violent than he seemed. To see that implication come to fruition, to see him become a broken and angry man, would have been an interesting progression because 1) we might not have expected it from him as much as we would have Kenny, 2) his temper isn't so much the driver of the story as it would be the result of story events, and and 3) it would have evoked the previously built theme of trust more.
With Kenny, players don't necessarily build trust because they can judge him off who they knew in season 1. So some people already went into it with a "ride or die" attitude with Kenny that completely ruined that theme. If it were Carlos, the calculated alliance and trust could create even more complicated feelings for Clem, choosing to trust potentially dangerous people she doesn't know in order to survive.
Not to derail too much here, but what made Walter work in one episode where Luke just kinda faffed about for two/three episodes was that he had a defined motivation, he had an explained backstory, and he had an actual established outlook that was so unexpected that he stood out despite(or rather, because of) being Kenny's friend.
I think Luke was set up as something of a similar light to Carley: someone whose friendly and understanding demeanor would make him very likable and appealing to the main character and function as someone she can trust to be there for them. Or, as I've seen a few people accurately say, a new Lee. The (realistic and nonbiased
) problem with that is that it feels like there was so much emphasis on him being this ideal hero that there was no substantial effort put into him being a character.
And this is sorta a primary example why Kenny having so much focus is baffling when you really thing about it. This may just be a misconception born from experiencing continuing stories under different writers but I sometimes got the vibe that it's easier to write for a brand spankin' new character than a pre-established one because there's a lot more freedom with what you can do compared to one that has already been developed. The story should've been written in a way where you focus the bulk of your writing efforts into making the Cabin Group actually stand out amongst each other even more than they did before and also develop their respective arcs and dynamics with Clementine, Kenny, and Carver, three characters who should've been easy to write for due to their inherent complexity and presence as the main protagonist, a returning major character, and the main villain.
When I came into this Season back in June, one of the few spoilery things I knew about it going in was that Kenny returns (with a greybeard and a missing eye) as a mentor figure for Clementine. While I''ve stated the problems with using him the way he actually was(which I'll repeat below), having him as a mentor made a lot of sense: Clementine was established in Season 1 as being very innocent, moral, and empathetic to the point of expecting Lee and the others to avoid killing people like Larry, Danny, or especially Ben despite the problems that they caused; having Kenny play the mentor figure(a role he would NOT be expected to play) was a brilliant move because it would serve to highlight just how empathetic and clever she thinks compared to his brash and opinionated actions. His strong personality being slightly demoted to a major supporting role is perfect because there wouldn't need to be as much effort put into writing him. Just remember to show when he'd second guess his rash decisions, show how losing what he lost has changed him over time, and keep his positive traits in mind and you're all set!
The main flaw with using him as a main character in a similar way that he was used with Lee is that Clementine is NOT Lee. As I point out in my Character Foils topic, Kenny is a character who was specifically meant to contrast with Lee by showing everything that Lee himself could be capable of but doesn't really have unless specifically highlighted: emotional outbursts with an emphasis on anger, a successful family man, selfish tendencies, and a motto of "I did what I had to do". Clementine was such inherently different character from Lee that expecting to get similar results from simply matching her up with Kenny was not gonna happen, at least not to the same level. The fact that she was written as what some people would call a much more neutral character also didn't help, so the story started to become less of "Clementine and the Refugee's Journey" and more of "The Kenny Show!" during Episode 3.
I usually haaaate bringing up my own biases when talking about this sort of things, but I also mentioned in that very topic that a character like Sarah or Jane(and some people have mentioned Nick, but I personally saw him as more of a Luke-based foil) seemed like a better choice, but that's a topic for another day.
Everything there, I can completely agree with. If only the writers had spent a little more time with developing the characters within the Cabin Group and as you pointed out in your previous comment with Walter's view on the world, had took the chance to bring unique traits that we hadn't seen before, Kenny could've taken more of a backseat and we could've been met with some new engaging characters.
But, I guess Telltale felt it easier instead to just use something (or someone, in this case) that had worked in the past, instead of being braver and more creative with constructing something new. I won't lie and say I wasn't happy when Kenny returned, but I also can't deny that relying on him instead of creating new characters to drive home the plot, was pure lazy writing. But with how things turned out, I do think it was probably for the best. Not saying it was right, per say, but that due to the issues with the Cabin Group, it was the wisest decision.
Well, I see your point, but I think it's important to remind ourselves of what Clementine is- a child. Of course, she's going to be very innocent and have a simplistic view on what is right and what is wrong, but for me, the main thing that drove me to season 2 was that we'd be able to (and maybe still could) shape more of Clementine's personality as she grew older. We'd be able to have the option to form her into being more like Kenny or whoever else were considered mentors in the game (Jane, Luke?), by either disagreeing or agreeing with their decisions. Yes, Clementine isn't Lee, but due to her still being so young in both seasons, she's not really going to have too many distinctive personality attributes just yet, outside what is to be expected from someone of her age (kind, caring, innocent) so that's why it was important to have her depend on others, like Kenny, to influence who she may become. Who she ends up choosing in the end, whether it be Kenny, Jane or neither, would hopefully determine what way she'll eventually be in season 3, which is why she's, as you said, quite neutral in the second season.
But the thing is, the writers didn't do his arc right. Maybe Carlos could've been a really interesting character with strong motivations and a compelling personality to allow him to stand out, amongst the other possibilities they could've done with the Cabin group if they were different characters, but in the end, he and the others weren't. He was bland, forgetful and ultimately, pointless, dying without have left a shred of impact for anyone (besides, maybe Sarah, but that's quickly forgotten). And I wouldn't say Kenny was reliving a past arc , really. There's no doubt that in both seasons the man has a bad temper, but in Season 2, it's very clear to see Kenny is actually, quite frankly, unstable and broken, whilst in season 1, he did react with anger quite a bit, but it never really drove into the territory of appearing that he was genuinely suffering from serious issues with controlling his emotions at times.
I've outlined why I think Carlos having Kenny's arc just wouldn't have worked as well before, but to be honest, I don't really mind repeating myself. With Kenny, there's already an attachment, a view of the character and whatever you think of him seen from season 1, so his temper and behaviour being worse in season 2 evokes an emotional reaction from the players, whether you grow to hate him more or sympathise with him, no matter what, it leaves an impact with you, whilst if that had been Carlos, well, it wouldn't have been the same because this is a character we don't share the same history with.
There's also the facture that we, as Clementine, have laid witness to what made Kenny this way, seeing Kat and Duck's deaths, and that can deeply effect how one might attempt to understand his actions because we've seen what he's been through. With Carlos, we'd never get to really see where this apparent violent nature emerged from, as the OP said, it was hinted that it was there well before the events of season 2, so it wouldn't effect our view of him as a character, nor give us as much reason to feel sympathy when he's acting like a dick.
Yes, I know that. But we're arguing hypotheticals. I'm saying IF they gave Carlos KEnny's arc and IF they wrote it well and IF the Cabin Group was more fleshed out then they could be just as if not more interesting than Kenny and we wouldn't need Kenny to fill the void.
And if Carlos was given KEnny's arc, it's implied that he would share some of his redeeming qualities too, like giving Carver the walkie talkie to protect Clementine, so there would still be reason to trust him and form some sort of emotional attachment to him. Would it have been as strong of an emotional attachment as Kenny? Maybe not, but if "trust" is a bigger theme than "attachment" in this season then it wouldn't necessarily have to be that way in order to still have an impactful and meaningful experience.
I honestly think if they hadn't brought Kenny back, the writers still wouldn't have written the cabin group better anyway. The whole of season 2 had bad points to do with character development. Sure a lot of focus was on Clem and Kenny but to be completely honest, the only characters I cared about in season 2 were Clem, Kenny, Christa and Omid, all of whom were season 1 characters
For discussions sake, what was your take on the issues with each member of the Cabin Group?
Hmm, I see your point since the final episode was more or less based around that idea, but that unfortunately doesn't justify her stance. What I meant when I said neutral is that many of her choices in the later episodes felt less like decisions she happened to agree with depending on the playstyle and more like she was just choosing a side without much personal investment. I've seen others agree that Clementine in Season 1 had more character than she does in Season 2. While part of that is due to the change from NPC to PC, it's still a major issue because she had a relatively defined character in spite of or rather because she was a child: she had goals(find parents, , survive), virtues(helpful, merciful, fraternity), and weaknesses(naivete, fear, size), all of which affected how players went through Season 1 and how they reacted to certain things in Season 2. And considering certain earlier scenes got flak for sometimes making her act out of character, this makes the notion of her having no character at all lose weight.
I believe the first two episodes are usually cited as favorites partly because they treat Clementine as an individual with feelings, thoughts, and motivations of her own that drive her through her experiences. For as bland as he seems to many people, I felt like Luke had a better chemistry with her than Kenny did simply because he asked her about these things and usually trusted her to be able to do certain things, even if it came at the comparative cost of not standing out much or doing anything spectacular himself. Heck, part of the reason I was so supportive of the Kenny as a mentor idea was because of her being skilled and moral but hesitant while he's stubborn and impulsive but determined would make for an interestingly unconventional take on the dynamic, especially up against the likes of tyrannical Carver and unassuming Arvo. However, around the halfway point of the Season, Clementine stopped having as much character interaction outside of Kenny and just seemed to be there out of obligation at certain points, with Episode 3 being the weakest in my opinion in part because she had little to no significance in the episode: Kenny was driving a little too much of the story and most of the things centered around Clementine felt like it just to back up another character or would end up being pointless, which gave me the feeling of being patronized. This is another example of a recurring issue with running character arcs, namely the fact that many things are establish and/or setup but get little payoff later. Depending on your choices, she can establish things blame herself for Lee's death, resolve to find Christa, want to help Sarah take care of herself like Lee helped her, and express guilt that she got people killed. However, most of those things kinda get dropped after a while.
Since this Season was supposed to be about how she handles herself and coexists with others in the apocalypse, the fact that she feels like lacked some independence and identity of her own is a serious flaw.
Luke - While a likable enough fella, he lacked having much qualities outside of being the "nice guy". I also felt sometimes the writers were even inconsistent with his basic personality, like seen with how he treated his apparent best friend, Nick and how he just quickly got over his death. Overall, though, I didn't have much issues with Luke, really, just would've preferred if he was a little more interesting.
Sarah- Sarah's not really much of a problem, to be honest. The writers seemed to know what they wanted Sarah to be, though I did find her a little annoying and a tad bit whinny. I know you're a fan of hers, so I'll try to restrain from insulting her too much, but yeah, overall, she was fine. Except, of course, the horrible way they decided to write her out and how pretty much all the characters just sorta went "Sarah's dead? Ah, sure, who cares, we have AJ now".
Nick- It seemed like he was meant to be the Ben of the season, the character who means well but always fucks things up despite his intentions. But the writers didn't seem to care for his character or bothered to develop him, so it was difficult for me to care either. He had very little screen time and it seemed that he was just there, in the end, to be little more than a background character. He could've had potential, maybe, but it's hard to tell because we hardly got to know the guy before he was dead.
Rebecca- First, she's a bitch, who Clementine could've blackmailed into being nicer to her, so you'd expect that maybe Rebecca was going to be a character who brought conflict, but NOPE, by the next episode, she's had a complete personality translate and has suddenly forgotten what her view on Clem originally was. She's a character who lacked any distinctive personality traits, just being sorta nice, up until dying after giving birth to AJ.
Carlos- Another character who had no distinctive personality traits. He was a protective dad, and...? That's it, so it was very difficult to give two fucks about the guy when he only seemed to have one purpose, being Sarah's dad, and unlike Luke, he wasn't even likable. I know I say this a lot, but god, the fella was just incredibly bland. There really was no thought put into him at all.
Alvin- Really the same as Carlos. Except he had a few moments that suggested he was generic nice guy, but other than that, there was nothing to see or explore with him.
Actually, I agree. It did seem that as Season 2 progressed, Clementine's character seemed to be less of a central focus, instead just being there to observe the what was happening, but not really be completely part of it or creating it. Kenny and Jane drove the story and while Clem might have the odd contribution, most of what happens in the story is because of the choice of someone else. An example would be the Arvo choice, where we can choose to steal the meds or leave it, but either way, Jane makes the decision to threaten Arvo and thus, moves the story forward by leading the Russians to seek revenge with their ambush. Everything, just seems, out of Clementine's control and while that's in part because she's still only a child, being the main protagonist, she should have a greater role in the story. It became less of what Clementine wanted, but more of what other characters, particularly Kenny, wanted, and whether she'd choose to agree or disagree, but either way, Kenny will still do what Kenny wants, so it's as though Clementine isn't really all that important in a story where she's meant to be the lead.
First off, you forgot Pete. Now, with that outta the way, let's look over these:
Yeah, that's the general consensus. I been planning on doing a critique about him for a while now.
Don't quite see some people's complaints about his interaction with Nick.
Thanks for the consideration dude; I would've been perfectly fine if you could describe legitimate issues with her, but I appreciate it anyway. I really loved Sarah in part because she was a complex experience: she could be endearing, observant, caring, and meek on one hand, yet annoying, hysterical, immature, dopey, and a fucking chatterbox on the other. She is almost certainly the number one thing that made Clementine's journey feel important to me, since she would reasonably have a soft spot for someone who can't defend themselves and want to go against her dad's well-intentioned but extreme methods to help her.
And yes, her death was the worst moment of the Season to me not only because it wasted a perfectly good character for no good reason, but also because of the multitude problems it causes.
I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't much of a fan at first. I just couldn't get into him for whatever reason, but seeing the love others have for him and some explanations as to why that is has slowly been winning me over. While Sarah was understandably well-developed, Nick was a lot more complex than he had to be. It's not that he didn't have any development but that he suddenly ceased to have any real purpose and was severely demoted. Plus, whether I truly like him or not, he is technically one reason why Episode 2 was the strongest in my opinion.
Ooh boy, you know things aren't well when even I say Rebecca was the worst member of the Cabin Group. I've only seen like three or four people who said they like her. And you touched on the elephant's head there: rather than have her bitchiness decrease as the Season goes on as Clementine grows on her, she apologizes for her behavior but ceases to be a bitch for the rest of the Season. As you said, this should've made her a character who could intentionally cause conflict and given her some actual character development. The weird thing is she technically had the most complete arc of all the Cabin Group--it's just that it was so shallow, by the numbers, and potentially offensive that it didn't amount to much. I mean, this is a woman who had an uncomfortable relationship with the villain and has insecurities about her pregnancy burdening the group-- why didn't this work?!
Much like Rebecca, Carlos could've and/or should've been a character who would cause conflict. He had something resembling an arc, but he had so little screentime and interaction with Clementine that most people only remember the bad stuff. Plus, look at what thread were talking about this in.
Ironically enough, he was the only member that I completely liked from the get-go. Which is why I have a hard time describing him outside of "I like him."
And honestly, that's another testament to how disappointing Carver and Episode 3 in general was.
The fact that there are plenty of child protagonists out there makes this all the more disappointing because we had the first Season already. Since Clementine had a defined character while also being ripe enough for development of her own, they really should've been able to tell a cohesive story with her in the lead. Even if there were different writers, you have an existing proof of concept as to how things should be done and a bar that has already been set. All you have to do is reach for it and give it your best effort. I tend to give characters like Sarah, Michelle, Arvo, and even Jane so much attention because they represent aspects of the first Season's quality of writing that I wanted expected more of in Season 2 and even things I thought only Season 2 would be able to do with it's tone.
As I said in my patchjob critique about Kenny, it felt like he constantly took things that Clementine should've gotten and even a few things she already had for himself :
If anything, a majority of the endings are the ultimate proof that the writers cared more about Kenny than anyone else given that he's always portrayed in a humbled fashion despite all the aggressive actions he did and there was a lot more emotion and effort put into his endings compared to Jane's and especially Clementine's. I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to turn this into a rant against Kenny, but like I've said before, it feels like he tried to act as a cover up for the shortcomings of the story and characters but only ended up making them more obvious.