Okay, @IronWoodLover, a few things:
I don't know. I guess she should've let him shoot us all? Oh, nooo. Jane killed the guy who was ab… moreout to murder her and the rest of us? How could she do such a thing? What a monster!!!
Not really, because he wasn't? Troy was demanding to know what the fuck everyone was doing and he only pointed his gun at Luke because he caught him reaching for his own gun. He could've been less of a dick about it, that's definitely true, but he wasn't planning on actually killing anyone as far as I can tell.
The point of contention comes in with the fact that Jane herself had pacified the dude with the vague explanation he was seeking: they got out of the pin like she had told him that she wanted. She then reminds him that she promised to help him when she got out and that this meant he could come with them. In an oddly considerate moment for the hick, Troy not only lowers his weapon but seems to be genuin… [view original content]
When she directly endangered a child's life for her own selfish purposes.
How was AJ's life in any danger? He wasn't out in the cold, there were no walkers etc.
True, but the precursory fact of the matter is that she was the reason they came after the group in the first place.
I don't believe there is ample evidence to prove this. The Russian group wait out there to ambush the group for several days and at the same exact place as well? It seems rather unlikely that they were looking for this specific group, otherwise that would be a huge coincidence.
Not to change the subject, but you wanna know what would've been a better plot point to include? I someone actually died at the hands of the Russian Group specifically because she robbed Arvo. Wasted opportunity.
I think Rebecca getting killed by the Russian group would've made Kenny's treatment of Arvo more justifiable, or at the very least, reasonable.
Okay , let's take a crack at this:
In what crazy universe did she do things that were worse than Kenny?
When she directly enda… morengered a child's life for her own selfish purposes.
Troy was an asshole and got what he deserved...leaving him to distract the walkers is no different than when good old noble Kenny tells Lee to let the woman suffer so that her pain and torment can distract the walkers.
The difference that I believe Kenny himself mentioned is that Beatrice had already been bitten several times right in front of them, whereas Jane intentionally castrated Troy specifically to have him be eaten. Both were cold and underhanded, though.
Leaving Sarah behind...sorta like how Kenny wanted to leave Lilly behind as they were escaping the motel.
I'd say leaving a melancholic and defenseless technical minor to be devoured by the herd is a step above leaving a phlegmatic and armed grown woman behind with w… [view original content]
...Seriously? I'm talking about how Jane threw the first punch, Kenny followed suit with volley of actual punches, and the fact that the last thing Arvo does in the Season is shoot Clementine is supposed to justify all that?
Logic! Because THAT's how sequencing is supposed to work!
If someone pulled a gun on your friend...you cannot tell me you would have done anything different.
DabigRG: Oh I am sorry Arvo here take your gun that you aimed at my friend back...oh and take the meds back that you were mysteriously hiding in a garbage can back too....because you know, even though we have a guy with massive injuries and a pregnant woman, you obviously need them more than us...even though you were again..just saying...putting them in a garbage can....not suspicious at all.
...Seriously? I'm talking about how Jane threw the first punch, Kenny followed suit with volley of actual punches, and the fact that the las… moret thing Arvo does in the Season is shoot Clementine is supposed to justify all that?
Logic! Because THAT's how sequencing is supposed to work!
I had the wrong impression that you disliked Jane!
These Kenny vs Jane arguments makes both of them look bad although.
That's … moreprecisely what we have to avoid. If two people in a discussion fail to recognize the positive traits of both characters and only rely on flimsily pointing out the other's flaws, there is something wrong.
What was Kenny trying to acomplish by beating Arvo? What was the point? This is an question every Kenny fan I've came across fails to answer.
It is obvious no one really knows what Kenny was trying to accomplish here. Just as Sleep said, I think Kenny beating Arvo was an expression of his fear, anger and guilt of everything that happened. This is more psychological than you think, and is something Kenny does when his emotions take over.
Sorry Daze, but I couldn't care less if Kenny is angry with life. It doesn't give him the right to beat up people that were unarmed, defenceless, tied up and already suffering.
Was it revenge? Who was Kenny avenging then?
Believe it or not, Kenny is a caring man. He cared about everyone he ever met, even if he doesn't show it that well. What Arvo orchestrated nearly got everyone killed, and just for that, that was enough for Kenny to despise him greatly, as he risked Kenny losing everyone around him. Kenny is more concerned with the fact that Arvo tried to get everyone killed, rather than the fact that no one directly died from the incidence.
Look, I deeply dislike Arvo myself for what he did at the ambush, but thankfully no-one died, therefore revenge couldn't be the reason for Kenny beating him since no-one really died.
Now, I dispise Arvo greatly for what he did too. I can relate with Kenny on that. But I cannot see how beating Arvo repeatedly was going to help him or anyone. The fact that he was doing it to make himself feel better only adds up to the already great disgust I have of him. It wasn't necessary, it was wrong and it had terrible irreversible consequences on all of us at the group. There's no justification. There may be a reason, but it doesn't justify.
So, Kenny beats Arvo. What consequences did this bring to our group? (...) Finally, Arvo shooting Clem. If he hadn't scared Mike and Bonnie, this would never happen.
It's weird how no one even questions this part of your comment; have they even read it? I'm sorry, but using a sequence of events is one of the weakest ways to put blame on a character. You started it of with "Kenny beats Arvo" and ended with "Arvo shototing Clem".
You missed my point or something? I was pointing out that Kenny beating Arvo resulted the the breaking of our group entirely. Do you really think that if our group had treated Arvo better he would've shot Clem? No, I don't think he would; first because Mike and Bonnie would never be leaving us in the first place, and second because the kid wouldn't have been suffering from abuse for 1 whole day and taken to the edge. Can you deny that if Kenny hadn't done what he did, most of the suff I listed above wouldn't have happened. That maybe if Kenny didn't feel the need to beat a tied up kid, our group wouldn't have broken? It was his fault and I hold him acountable. And that's a valid reason to dislike him as far as I'm concerned.
Have you ever considered that if Jane never robbed Arvo (with or without Clem she does take something of him either way), Arvo would have no reason to ambush the group, and Kenny would never have known of Arvo's existence let alone beaten Arvo? See? It works both ways. Unless you want to blame Clem getting shot on whoever told Jane and Clem to scout the building where they met Arvo?
I've already talked about this. Arvo encountering Clem and Jane was enevitable. Jane threatens to rob him but never does without your say so. She takes his gun because she's not fucking retardad to the point of leaving a threat armed! If the Russian group's problem was the fucking gun they should've asked for it politely like normal fellas instead of trying to take everything we had. I'm so sorry that I blame the Russian group more than Jane.
I'm not denying that her (and Clem's) actions undirectly led to that group of bandits ambushing us, but fact is the Russian group is more at fault here than Jane herself, don't you think?
And I know you're gonna say, 'Bonnie and Mike are more at fault with Kenny, don't you think?' or 'Arvo is more at fault with Kenny too don't you think?'. Well, let me remind you that while Kenny directly instigates Bonnie, Arvo, Mike and Jane, Jane never does with the Russian group (unless you robbed them, if so, it's on you too). She is forced by circumstance to take the gun of a potential threat, Kenny isn't forced by circumstance to beat the living hell out of Arvo.
The kid had lost his sister. I know he brought it on himself, but Kenny of all people should know how hard it is to loose a relative. He knew what Arvo was going through yet he kept his sadistic abuse up. Why? The kid was already suffering and the fact that his actions led to his own sister's death only made it worse. Why inflict punishment on a person already being punished? How can you be ok with such sadism and cruelty?
Kenny is messed up in the head, that's why! How come people use the fact that Kenny is damaged against him, but never in his favour. Hmm...
Humm, let me guess, because that's no excuse for what he does??? Psychopaths are also 'sick in the head' did you know? It's an anti social disorder. But if you take 'oh he's sick in the head' to a court, one won't be absolved from their crimes.
And I'm very interested to see how being sick the the head can be used on his favour xD.
Cut the shit. If the game had given you the option to shoot Troy in that moment where he was about to shoot everyone, you wouldn't do it?
Yes. Yes we would. But most of us would have shot Troy in the head and gotten on and escaped.
Yeah, and maybe Jane would've too, if headshooting was as simple as games make it out to be! What if she missed? It'd bye-bye everyone! Risks, you don't take them when there are lifes at stake.
I think the issue here is that even though Jane new these were Troy's last few moments, she still tries to manipulate him
And you make it seem like she manipulated him for giggles. Which is not true. She manipulates him in order to be able to approach him enough to be able to disarm him so he doesn't shoot anyone after he gets shot.
and make his last moments physically and mentally unbearable. This was disgusting.
Yet Kenny's actions never are disgusting! They always seem to have a good justification for you.
Seriously, this is disgustingly hypocritical of you. You seem so concerned with Troy being killed by Jane in a painful way, but when it comes to Kenny beating an already psychologically struggling Arvo you sudenly don't give a fuck, right? I mean, it's Kenny so it's all ok! Afterall, he's sick in the head therefore he's justified!
... And I'm the one biased yall!
Do you really think Jane was trying to get Sarah killed?
In short, no. But it's foolish to think that Jane didn't have less concern for the liabilities.
If that's foolish, then by all means call me a fool.
If Jane didn't care for liabilities she would've gone through the skylight the first chance she got. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she would never have dragged her sister across 4 states! If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have tried to save Sarah voluntarily on the observation deck. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have asked Clem to try and bring Kenny back. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have saved Rebecca and Clem in the herd and stuck with our group. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she would've just kept walking when she heard the gunshots. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have tried to find a place for Rebecca's labour. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she would've actually killed AJ instead of putting him in a safe(r) car near the rest stop.
Asking Rebecca what she planned to do with the baby, that for some reason every Kenny fan decided to interpert as 'kill the baby, Rebecca!!! Now!!!'.
Firstly, the reason why people didn't like this scene is because what was being implied here, and Jane's approach to it. Even Rebecca gets a weird feeling of Jane's tone. Please tell me what Jane was suggesting they "do with it" in the ZA? Throw a party?
She was asking Rebecca what would she do once it was out. Would she try to find a place to settle down? Would she just kept wandering around?
It's beyond me how some people actually thought that she was saying 'stab the baby once it's out!!' because it's just ridiculous.
Ooh, and let's not forget that this vage, vage statement is the main argument people use to justify 'Jane doesn't like liabilities'.
Secondly, you have criticised people in the past, including the OP now, for having a narrow minded way of looking at things, yet say "every Kenny fan" said this? Don't be a hypocrite dude.
Yeah, wrong of me to say every Kenny fan, I admit. There are reasonable ones out there (if you search very, very hard), thankfully.
Banging Luke, which somehow resulted in Sarah's death. (Spoiler alert: it actually didn't.)
Oooh, so the chain of events thing works against Kenny's favor, but the second Jane is involved it isn't her fault? I get it
No, don't be ridiculous. What the fuck, I never said that.
Thing is, Jane and Luke not banging wouldn't have stopped Rebecca from attracting walkers with her smell and noise. It also wouldn't have stopped the mini herd from going in that direction or being there at all. That's my point.
What you did here was the pick moments where Kenny was bad and Jane was good. If you want to back up a character you have to be brutally honest about everyone man. I admit Kenny can be a prick and is a mess, but I still prefer him. Since this would take me too much time, if you want you can ask me which part of these paragraphs I think is wrong and I'll reply.
Then go right ahead, enlighten me. What undeniable truth did I omit there? If you don't tell me I don't have much to go on.
Honestly, I told things as I see them because I don't think I recall a moment where Kenny actively united our group.
It's the same as me saying that Clem was replacement Duck for Kenny. It just makes no sense, since Clem was very different from both Jaime and Duck.
No offense dude, but I thought everyone knew Clem was being used by Kenny and Jane to make up for their past mistakes in life. Clem was a replacement for their lost ones...
And what indicates that? Can you tell me? I don't see it. Fundament your statements otherwise I won't be able to counterargument.
Kenny attacked Jane out of the blue,
Implying he had no reason to attack her? Stop being biased.
Oh, no, by all means I'm not implying! I'm saying that he had no justifiable reason to try to kill her. You stop being biased and start refering to Kenny's actions just as they are instead of sugercoating them.
What if it had been Clem that had accidentaly dropped the baby? That's what she was trying to get across.
If Clem "accidentally" dropped AJ, Kenny wouldn't have reacted like that.
I very much think he would. We all saw how quickly he was able to turn on Clem in episode 4 the minute she did something he didn't like.
The thing is, Kenny's violent reactions was more than just that, but for everything evil Jane has done in the past. Plus, from Kenny's perspective, what Jane did wasn't accidental, or else she would have said that.
What 'evil' things? Calling him an unstable asshole after he told her that she's nothing? Calling him out for almost beating Arvo to death?
Or are you talking about the Troy incident? Something that Kenny nor anyone else, ever condemened?
And by the way, I think that putting AJ in a car with slightly opened windows is arguable a more safe option that carrying him around in a blizzard.
Sigh, it's like you can't disagree with a single movement Jane makes.Justifying leaving a baby in a blizzard? Fine, whatever, it's your opinion..
Tell me, are you having trouble reading what I wrote? When did I justify what Jane did? I argued that putting the baby in a car is better than having him outside in a raging blizzard.
And by the way, Jane doesn't leave the baby in a blizzard, she does the opposite. She puts him in a place safe from the blizzard which is, as I said, a better option that carrying him around in the actual blizzard.
Ask yourself: if Jane told Kenny that the baby was alive, do you think would he have stopped or that his rage would just increase? Yeah, I'm willing to bet the latter.
Why would Kenny have continued knowing that AJ is out there in the cold? This is just common sense now. I admit he would still be angry, but his care for AJ is greater and he would have stopped the fight.
Hummm, because 'Kenny is messed up in the head' as you said. Finding out that Jane lied would definitely agered him more, I have no doubt of that. We all know how rage blinds Kenny from everything else increasing that anger would've worsen the situation.
But if you take 'oh he's sick in the head' to a court, one won't be absolved from their crimes.
Actually, they potentially can.
I am sure that I have read records of people who were absolved from their crimes because they were mentally impaired at the time.
Yeah, and maybe Jane would've too, if headshooting was as simple as games make it out to be! What if she missed? It'd bye-bye everyone! Risks, you don't take them when there are lifes at stake.
What about a bullet to the head after she shoots him the first time and he falls onto the ground?
Yet Kenny's actions never are disgusting! They always seem to have a good justification for you.
Seriously, this is disgustingly hypocritical of you. You seem so concerned with Troy being killed by Jane in a painful way, but when it comes to Kenny beating an already psychologically struggling Arvo you sudenly don't give a fuck, right? I mean, it's Kenny so it's all ok! Afterall, he's sick in the head therefore he's justified!
... And I'm the one biased yall!
If you are taking this approach with Daze, Iron, I feel the urge to point out that you are being hypocritical as well.
You avoided addressing the fact that Jane left somebody to suffer and be devoured in a fit of sadism, essentially doing what you claim that Daze was doing—deviating attention
Thing is, Jane and Luke not banging wouldn't have stopped Rebecca from attracting walkers with her smell and noise. It also wouldn't have stopped the mini herd from going in that direction or being there at all. That's my point.
You are completely right.
I very much think he would. We all saw how quickly he was able to turn on Clem in episode 4 the minute she did something he didn't like.
I think so as well, albeit I don't think that he would be in control of his impulses when he'd do so. Anger would drive him in that moment, overriding his wish to keep her safe
Hummm, because 'Kenny is messed up in the head' as you said. Finding out that Jane lied would definitely agered him more, I have no doubt of that. We all know how rage blinds Kenny from everything else increasing that anger would've worsen the situation.
I agree with this, too. Conscious Kenny would have stopped attempting to kill her and instead would've forced her to tell him the location of the baby; but it was irrational and volatile Kenny who was gripping the knife.
What was Kenny trying to acomplish by beating Arvo? What was the point? This is an question every Kenny fan I've came across fails to answer… more.
It is obvious no one really knows what Kenny was trying to accomplish here. Just as Sleep said, I think Kenny beating Arvo was an expression of his fear, anger and guilt of everything that happened. This is more psychological than you think, and is something Kenny does when his emotions take over.
Sorry Daze, but I couldn't care less if Kenny is angry with life. It doesn't give him the right to beat up people that were unarmed, defenceless, tied up and already suffering.
Was it revenge? Who was Kenny avenging then?
Believe it or not, Kenny is a caring man. He cared about everyone he ever met, even if he doesn't show it that well. What Arvo orchestrated nearly got everyone killed, and just for that, that was enough for Kenny to despise him greatly, as he risked Kenny losing everyone a… [view original content]
Actually, they potentially can.
I am sure that I have read records of people who were absolved from their crimes because they were mentally impaired at the time.
True, but while you can take 'my client suffered from PTSD and acted one their instincts due to previous trauma' you cannot take 'my client suffers from psychopathy/sociopathy therefore they weren't in control of their actions' because it's not true, psychopaths and sociopaths and Kennys are clearly in control of their actions.
What about a bullet to the head after she shoots him the first time and he falls onto the ground?
Maybe that was due to not wanting to waste a bullet just to make the last seconds of a guy who had previously abused and opressed them more comfortable.
If you are taking this approach with Daze, Iron, I feel the urge to point out that you are being hypocritical as well.
Ok, I guess so. :< But I'll adress it now.
You avoided addressing the fact that Jane left somebody to suffer and be devoured in a fit of sadism, essentially doing what you claim that Daze was doing—deviating attention.
Whether that was sadism, pragmatism (not wanting to waste the bullet) or simply carelessy for Troy's fate is arguable. I'm willing to bet it was the latter maybe with a bit of the second.
I think so as well, albeit I don't think that he would be in control of his impulses when he'd do so. Anger would drive him in that moment, overriding his wish to keep her safe
I agree with this, too. Conscious Kenny would have stopped attempting to kill her and instead would've forced her to tell him the location of the baby; but it was irrational and volatile Kenny who was gripping the knife.
Well, most of Kenny's bad actions in Season 2 happen because he is angry. I just don't think not having control over is anger justifies his acts and makes him less acountable.
But if you take 'oh he's sick in the head' to a court, one won't be absolved from their crimes.
Actually, they potentially can.
I… more am sure that I have read records of people who were absolved from their crimes because they were mentally impaired at the time.
Yeah, and maybe Jane would've too, if headshooting was as simple as games make it out to be! What if she missed? It'd bye-bye everyone! Risks, you don't take them when there are lifes at stake.
What about a bullet to the head after she shoots him the first time and he falls onto the ground?
Yet Kenny's actions never are disgusting! They always seem to have a good justification for you.
Seriously, this is disgustingly hypocritical of you. You seem so concerned with Troy being killed by Jane in a painful way, but when it comes to Kenny beating an already psychologically struggling Arvo you sudenly don't give a fuck, right? I mean, it's Kenny so it's all … [view original content]
You didn't see it? He cares only for the baby. Forget that there is a very small child with them, (Clementine) and I'm not talking about basic needs, I'm talking about a concern, She's a lovely girl and mature so she does not jealous, but everyone saw it. Kenny neglected this sweet child! This baby will destroy many more things in her life. I wish he would die.
What about the part when Kenny immediately ran out of the house for Clementine to get her in the truck until she healed after she got shot by Arvo? Or the part when he voluntarily chooses not to stay at Wellington for both Clem and AJ?
You didn't see it? He cares only for the baby. Forget that there is a very small child with them, (Clementine) and I'm not talking about bas… moreic needs, I'm talking about a concern, She's a lovely girl and mature so she does not jealous, but everyone saw it. Kenny neglected this sweet child! This baby will destroy many more things in her life. I wish he would die.
He cares only for the baby.
Kenny neglected this sweet child!
Oh yeah?
What about the part when Kenny immediately ran out … moreof the house for Clementine to get her in the truck until she healed after she got shot by Arvo? Or the part when he voluntarily chooses not to stay at Wellington for both Clem and AJ?
I wish he would die.
Okay, that's really fucked up.
I have not seen it covered her coat, where did you see it?
Oh yeah good point; I confused one thing with another. I edited my comment.
And it's not stupid, it's my opinion, please respect.
I didn't say it was stupid; I said it was fucked up. As in "sadistic" fucked up. How would you feel if someone left you in the frozen wastelands to die when you were a baby?
I was feel bad, but I hate the "idea" to put this baby, so make Clementine be less important for people and especially for Kenny. Lee would never do it, the concern was more for Clementine or that it was the same thing.
I have not seen it covered her coat, where did you see it?
Oh yeah good point; I confused one thing with another. I edited my commen… moret.
And it's not stupid, it's my opinion, please respect.
I didn't say it was stupid; I said it was fucked up. As in "sadistic" fucked up. How would you feel if someone left you in the frozen wastelands to die when you were a baby?
In what crazy universe did she do things that were worse than Kenny?
The season 2 universe.
Troy was an asshole and got what h… moree deserved...leaving him to distract the walkers is no different than when good old noble Kenny tells Lee to let the woman suffer so that her pain and torment can distract the walkers.
There is no denying that Troy was an asshole, I'm just saying that it is a moment of pure ruthlessness and brutality that not even Kenny had inflicted upon another human being. And those two situations are different. Lee and Kenny chose simply to not intervene in a doomed situation with a woman who was clearly bitten, whereas Jane was solely and directly responsible for killing this guy in the most agonizingly painful way imaginable.
Leaving Sarah behind...sorta like how Kenny wanted to leave Lilly behind as they were escaping the motel.
Completely different, you should feel ashamed for grasping at s… [view original content]
I know you were responding to someone else, but I'd yet to leave a comment on this, so...yeah.
How was AJ's life in any danger? He wasn't out in the cold, there were no walkers etc.
He was in danger because, like all babies, he was completely defenceless and if something were to come along, such as, let's say, a Walker who have a tendency of popping up, to say the least, AJ would have no way to physically defend himself from the threat. Yes, there were no visible walkers around, but with it being a snow storm and the vision of all characters present being blurred because of it, it is highly possible that one may have been lurking about. AJ could've been killed and Jane, being Jane, felt that it was worth putting a child's life at risk (as well as her own and the others) simply so she could prove some point about Kenny. That's pure and simple endangerment, especially when you remember AJ is a baby and should not be left on his own.
I don't believe there is ample evidence to prove this. The Russian group wait out there to ambush the group for several days and at the same exact place as well? It seems rather unlikely that they were looking for this specific group, otherwise that would be a huge coincidence.
Arvo says "I told them you are the ones who robbed me" to Clem and the group, no matter what situation you're in, so it's safe to say that he holds them responsible for Jane stealing his gun or if you agreed to rob him, the medicine. The Russians were waiting there, as they had predicated that the group would be traveling through there.
I think Rebecca getting killed by the Russian group would've made Kenny's treatment of Arvo more justifiable, or at the very least, reasonable.
That is true, though because of Rebecca's death during the ambush, I suppose he felt that someone had to be blamed for it and considering Arvo was the only Russian not in an early grave, Kenny felt he was the best candidate for such blame. And he had just tried to have everyone killed, so I do think that while Kenny's treatment isn't right, it is understandable and makes sense with regards to the turn of events.
Just a few things...
When she directly endangered a child's life for her own selfish purposes.
How was AJ's life in any danger… more? He wasn't out in the cold, there were no walkers etc.
True, but the precursory fact of the matter is that she was the reason they came after the group in the first place.
I don't believe there is ample evidence to prove this. The Russian group wait out there to ambush the group for several days and at the same exact place as well? It seems rather unlikely that they were looking for this specific group, otherwise that would be a huge coincidence.
Not to change the subject, but you wanna know what would've been a better plot point to include? I someone actually died at the hands of the Russian Group specifically because she robbed Arvo. Wasted opportunity.
I think Rebecca getting killed by the Russian group would've made Kenny's treatment of Arvo more justifiable, or at the very least, reasonable.
Oooh, you said "pulled a gun" in reference to their first meeting. Sorry, I'm just so used to seeing "Arvo shot muh Clemmy ClooNEEERRR!"
Plus, Arvo made it clear before he opened his mouth that he wasn't planning on actually shooting anyone, much less a little girl, even in self defense. I can at least understand disarming him for a sec to talk things over since he might pull a Michelle and pull the trigger by accident, but deciding to up and rob him was way too far. There were better ways to go about that situation than trying to rob some random guy of his sister's medicine: making a deal like civilized folk is the obvious one.
If someone pulled a gun on your friend...you cannot tell me you would have done anything different.
DabigRG: Oh I am sorry Arvo here take… more your gun that you aimed at my friend back...oh and take the meds back that you were mysteriously hiding in a garbage can back too....because you know, even though we have a guy with massive injuries and a pregnant woman, you obviously need them more than us...even though you were again..just saying...putting them in a garbage can....not suspicious at all.
Clementine will remember this idiocy?
Yeah I agree, just goes to show that blaming Jane for Arvo attacking the group is just as invalid as blaming Arvo for shooting Clem. Get it now?
It's not quite the same. Kenny directly angered Arvo which made him shoot Clem. Jane took a gun from Arvo and the Russain group attacked us not because of the tiny gun, but because they were bandits as I explain in this post.
Not trying to be funny here or anything, but I think a guy's penis is a smaller target than his head. At least, not in my case [hides in insecurity].
Hence why she manipulated him to get her hand close enough to his cock.
Oh my god, what is this.
It's mainly the fact that she led him up to be so happy, as he is promised a better life after Carver's dictatorship with Jane. Then he gets the worst death in the series imo.
A better life? DUde, he was just as bad and opressive as Carver, she was using her ahem natural charm in order to make Troy think with his 'chicken' so she could get him off guard.
This mainly because I dislike Arvo, not because I support Kenny. I do still think Kenny went overboard, but for me in the ZA, mental torture can be worse than physical. And, unlike Kenny, Jane was the master of both.
You dislike Arvo but don't dislike Troy? ^~^
And how so? I don't recall Jane mentally torturing anyone (unless we're still talking about Troy which again, she killed because he was about to shoot us not because 'lololololol lez mek him suffar!').
Kenny did mentally torture Ben in Season 1, though.
I never said Jane didn't care for liabilities, just that she had less concern. Meaning she will try, but not go the extra mile to save them as she sees them as a lost cause. Remember the second you find Sarah's glasses she basically gives up and tries to convince you that Sarah/Luke/Nick wouldn't have looked for you, therefore Clem shoudn't be worried.
Then she hears them screaming and is the one who helps the most. It is as they say: actions speak louder than words.
I never once said or implied that Jane was saying 'stab the baby once it's out!!'.
And I never said that you specifically said that, just that many Kenny fans and Jane haters take her words as if she was implying that they should kill the baby.
Lemme guess, OneWayNowWay and Deltino?
Actually, the user that comes to mind when I think about 'reasonable Kenny fan' is @Kenny726. Then I start recalling some of that users posts. Then sudenly the music 'Crazy in Love' - Beyonce comes to mind. Then I start picturing a tied up Sponge Bob with a very lewd expression. Then I have the suden urge to kill myself.
Just read why other people don't like her.
I meant what evil things Kenny blamed Jane for, not what evil things people everywhere make up.
Quit using my words against me, cos it kinda shows that you don't have an answer yourself.
Dude, what. Just because I made a brief quote of 7 words, my whooole point goes to the dumpster? Ok I'll rephrase without your quote if that's bothering you:
Because Kenny is mentally unstable and can't control is anger.
Please tell me if you're annoyed by me jumping into your discussions!
Jane took a gun from Arvo and the Russain group attacked us not because of the tiny gun, but because they were bandits as I explain in this post.
The translated dialogue of the ambush goes like this…
Arvo: What should we take?
Buricko: Hell if I know! Whatever they have!
…at a point, and I believe that it shows just how inexperienced this group was at robbing others; their plan was all over the place. The way that I see it, the only reason why they ambushed us was because Jane stole from Arvo, and Buricko and Vitali, being the dumbasses that they seem to be, decided that it would be fun to get retribution; and Natasha was pissed because her brother was mugged.
Yeah I agree, just goes to show that blaming Jane for Arvo attacking the group is just as invalid as blaming Arvo for shooting Clem. Get it … morenow?
It's not quite the same. Kenny directly angered Arvo which made him shoot Clem. Jane took a gun from Arvo and the Russain group attacked us not because of the tiny gun, but because they were bandits as I explain in this post.
Not trying to be funny here or anything, but I think a guy's penis is a smaller target than his head. At least, not in my case [hides in insecurity].
Hence why she manipulated him to get her hand close enough to his cock.
Oh my god, what is this.
It's mainly the fact that she led him up to be so happy, as he is promised a better life after Carver's dictatorship with Jane. Then he gets the worst death in the series imo.
A better life? DUde, he was just as bad and opressive as Carver, she was using her ahem natural charm in order to make Troy t… [view original content]
Uh, looks like @OneWayNoWay summed it up pretty nicely, so just a quick overview:
1. Her plan could've gotten them all killed, with Clementine being shoved aside a few times during the fight for trying to stop them and AJ at risk of either a wandering walker, the cold air pouring in through the window, or starving due to no one knowing where he is in the event of Jane's death.
2. Arvo mentioned the fact that they robbed him specifically, with Clementine's presence being the main reason he stopped the group. It's safe to assume that had Jane not stuck him up, he would have no reason to come after the group.
3. True, but I was referring to either Nick, Sarah, or maybe even Troy dying there. Rebecca suddenly turning in the middle of a tense situation and Clementine/Kenny putting her down was the reason Buricko opened fire, so it's safe to assume that he wouldn't have done so otherwise. Nothing (besides self-preservation) stopping Vitali, though.
Just a few things...
When she directly endangered a child's life for her own selfish purposes.
How was AJ's life in any danger… more? He wasn't out in the cold, there were no walkers etc.
True, but the precursory fact of the matter is that she was the reason they came after the group in the first place.
I don't believe there is ample evidence to prove this. The Russian group wait out there to ambush the group for several days and at the same exact place as well? It seems rather unlikely that they were looking for this specific group, otherwise that would be a huge coincidence.
Not to change the subject, but you wanna know what would've been a better plot point to include? I someone actually died at the hands of the Russian Group specifically because she robbed Arvo. Wasted opportunity.
I think Rebecca getting killed by the Russian group would've made Kenny's treatment of Arvo more justifiable, or at the very least, reasonable.
And he had just tried to have everyone killed, so I do think that while Kenny's treatment isn't right, it is understandable and makes sense with regards to the turn of events.
Arvo was against actually hurting the group directly and the whole "put down your guns so we take your things" deal was Buricko's idea. When it became clear that things weren't gonna end well and AJ's presence was revealed, Arvo, Natasha, Mike, and technically Kenny all tried to get everyone to back down and stop anyone from getting killed. Yes, Arvo was the liaison of the Russian group, but it was really Jane and Clementine/Kenny's fault that firefight happened.
I know you were responding to someone else, but I'd yet to leave a comment on this, so...yeah.
How was AJ's life in any danger? He was… moren't out in the cold, there were no walkers etc.
He was in danger because, like all babies, he was completely defenceless and if something were to come along, such as, let's say, a Walker who have a tendency of popping up, to say the least, AJ would have no way to physically defend himself from the threat. Yes, there were no visible walkers around, but with it being a snow storm and the vision of all characters present being blurred because of it, it is highly possible that one may have been lurking about. AJ could've been killed and Jane, being Jane, felt that it was worth putting a child's life at risk (as well as her own and the others) simply so she could prove some point about Kenny. That's pure and simple endangerment, especially when you remember AJ is a baby and should not be left on his ow… [view original content]
I was feel bad, but I hate the "idea" to put this baby, so make Clementine be less important for people and especially for Kenny. Lee would never do it, the concern was more for Clementine or that it was the same thing.
Please tell me if you're annoyed by me jumping into your discussions!
It's a forum, we're meant to have discussions. If you're not putting your views out there, then you're doing it wrong.
The translated dialogue of the ambush goes like this…
Arvo: What should we take?
Buricko: Hell if I know! Whatever they have!
…at a point, and I believe that it shows just how inexperienced this group was at robbing others; their plan was all over the place.
Alright. I can understand this being their first time doing this, but that won't purge them from being called bandits. I mean, they all have to start somewhere, right? It seems that our friends here started with our group.
The way that I see it, the only reason why they ambushed us was because Jane stole from Arvo,
Jane *disarmed Arvo.
You won't see me denying that Jane's actions undirectly caused whatever inspired the Russians to ambush us. My point is, it only turned into an ambush because the Russians made it an ambush because in my view of things our group did nothing to incite such antagonic and violent behavior from their part. We've discussed this before, they had the option to ask, but they didn't. Why? Because they're bad people.
Kenny actions on the other hand were direct punches (figuratively and literally) to the person who preformed the wrong act (Arvo shooting Clem). The beatings weren't forced by circumstance nor carried out of caution like Jane's actions, and that's why I can condemn his acts, and not hers.
Arvo had some justificaton, the Russians did not have any considering they could've taken another course of action called talking.
I can't be more clear than this.
and Buricko and Vitali, being the dumbasses that they seem to be, decided that it would be fun to get retribution; and Natasha was pissed because her brother was mugged.
This is your assumption, right? I've seen the dialogue line in that thread, and never indicated if Arvo or Natasha were aginst it beforehand. You're making an assumption based on Buricko and Vitali's thougher looks.
Arvo: You were nice... But we are not here to negociate.
Please tell me if you're annoyed by me jumping into your discussions!
Jane took a gun from Arvo and the Russain group attacked us not … morebecause of the tiny gun, but because they were bandits as I explain in this post.
The translated dialogue of the ambush goes like this…
Arvo: What should we take?
Buricko: Hell if I know! Whatever they have!
…at a point, and I believe that it shows just how inexperienced this group was at robbing others; their plan was all over the place. The way that I see it, the only reason why they ambushed us was because Jane stole from Arvo, and Buricko and Vitali, being the dumbasses that they seem to be, decided that it would be fun to get retribution; and Natasha was pissed because her brother was mugged.
Arvo was against actually hurting the group directly and the whole "put down your guns so we take your things" deal was Buricko's idea. When it became clear that things weren't gonna end well and AJ's presence was revealed, Arvo, Natasha, Mike, and technically Kenny all tried to get everyone to back down and stop anyone from getting killed. Yes, Arvo was the liaison of the Russian group, but it was really Jane and Clementine/Kenny's fault that firefight happened.
Well, I mean Arvo did go along with the plan and seemed okay with what Buricko had suggested, holding them up and then taking their supplies. This act, the stealing of one's supplies which can be very difficult to come by, basically means a likely death for the group unless they luckily come across something by chance and does show that Arvo really couldn't have given a shit if they died. It's also most possible that it was Arvo's idea in the first place, as we know that he had informed the other Russians of what had happened with Jane/Clementine.
But, yeah, Arvo didn't want the actual shootout to happen, as he did express concern for AJ and wouldn't have wanted to put his life and his sisters' at risk. If anyone's to blame it was Jane, considering it were her actions that led to the ambush, though Arvo still plays his role.
Thanks for the preemptive, but one small note:
And he had just tried to have everyone killed, so I do think that while Kenny's treatme… morent isn't right, it is understandable and makes sense with regards to the turn of events.
Arvo was against actually hurting the group directly and the whole "put down your guns so we take your things" deal was Buricko's idea. When it became clear that things weren't gonna end well and AJ's presence was revealed, Arvo, Natasha, Mike, and technically Kenny all tried to get everyone to back down and stop anyone from getting killed. Yes, Arvo was the liaison of the Russian group, but it was really Jane and Clementine/Kenny's fault that firefight happened.
I used the verb steal because it applies broadly to all cases, whether we took the medicine or not. I don't want to overlook the fact that half of the time they lost medicine along with the revolver.
My point is, it only turned into an ambush because the Russians made it an ambush because in my view of things our group did nothing to incite such antagonic and violent behavior from their part. We've discussed this before, they had the option to ask, but they didn't.
I coincide, then.
Can we say that both of us agree that, while Jane ignited the conflict by desarming and determinantly robbing Arvo; Vitali, Buricko and Natasha are more directly responsible because they decided to carry out an ambush?
I can understand this being their first time doing this, but that won't purge them from being called bandits. I mean, they all have to start somewhere, right? It seems that our friends here started with our group.
They robbed from a group once as far as we know, with the use of firearms, and they're considered bandits.
Are Clementine and Jane considered bandits as well, for the rest of their lives, when they take medicine from a crippled teenager, with the use of a firearm?
Please tell me if you're annoyed by me jumping into your discussions!
It's a forum, we're meant to have discussions. If you're not p… moreutting your views out there, then you're doing it wrong.
The translated dialogue of the ambush goes like this…
Arvo: What should we take?
Buricko: Hell if I know! Whatever they have!
…at a point, and I believe that it shows just how inexperienced this group was at robbing others; their plan was all over the place.
Alright. I can understand this being their first time doing this, but that won't purge them from being called bandits. I mean, they all have to start somewhere, right? It seems that our friends here started with our group.
The way that I see it, the only reason why they ambushed us was because Jane stole from Arvo,
Jane *disarmed Arvo.
You won't see me denying that Jane's actions undirectly caused whatever inspired the Russians to ambush us. My point is, i… [view original content]
Aw thanks! I was under the impression that no one knew who I was.
Then I start recalling some of that users posts. Then sudenly the music 'Crazy in Love' - Beyonce comes to mind. Then I start picturing a tied up Sponge Bob with a very lewd expression. Then I have the suden urge to kill myself.
I'm glad to hear that I have that effect on people! I'm just gonna leave this here so that my post uh...furthers the discussion:
Yeah I agree, just goes to show that blaming Jane for Arvo attacking the group is just as invalid as blaming Arvo for shooting Clem. Get it … morenow?
It's not quite the same. Kenny directly angered Arvo which made him shoot Clem. Jane took a gun from Arvo and the Russain group attacked us not because of the tiny gun, but because they were bandits as I explain in this post.
Not trying to be funny here or anything, but I think a guy's penis is a smaller target than his head. At least, not in my case [hides in insecurity].
Hence why she manipulated him to get her hand close enough to his cock.
Oh my god, what is this.
It's mainly the fact that she led him up to be so happy, as he is promised a better life after Carver's dictatorship with Jane. Then he gets the worst death in the series imo.
A better life? DUde, he was just as bad and opressive as Carver, she was using her ahem natural charm in order to make Troy t… [view original content]
Aw thanks! I was under the impression that no one knew who I was.
Then I start recalling some of that users posts. Then sudenly the mu… moresic 'Crazy in Love' - Beyonce comes to mind. Then I start picturing a tied up Sponge Bob with a very lewd expression. Then I have the suden urge to kill myself.
I'm glad to hear that I have that effect on people! I'm just gonna leave this here so that my post uh...furthers the discussion:
Just wanted to add lets say she didnt hid the baby then there would be nothing to fight about and lets say she did bring the baby and it died from the cold and Kenny saw then i think he would be pissed but wouldnt find her so all this that was wrote is bs
Aw thanks! I was under the impression that no one knew who I was.
Then I start recalling some of that users posts. Then sudenly the mu… moresic 'Crazy in Love' - Beyonce comes to mind. Then I start picturing a tied up Sponge Bob with a very lewd expression. Then I have the suden urge to kill myself.
I'm glad to hear that I have that effect on people! I'm just gonna leave this here so that my post uh...furthers the discussion:
Aw thanks! I was under the impression that no one knew who I was.
Then I start recalling some of that users posts. Then sudenly the mu… moresic 'Crazy in Love' - Beyonce comes to mind. Then I start picturing a tied up Sponge Bob with a very lewd expression. Then I have the suden urge to kill myself.
I'm glad to hear that I have that effect on people! I'm just gonna leave this here so that my post uh...furthers the discussion:
I used the verb steal because it applies broadly to all cases, whether we took the medicine or not. I don't want to overlook the fact that half of the time they lost medicine along with the revolver.
It doesn't exactly apply to all cases. In one version Jane steals from Arvo, on the other she takes out of caution.
But this is me just being nitpicky : p.
Can we say that both of us agree that, while Jane ignited the conflict by desarming and determinantly robbing Arvo; Vitali, Buricko and Natasha are more directly responsible because they decided to carry out an ambush?
Yeah, we can agree on that... Partly.
As you know I don't rule out the possibility of Arvo being in favour of ambushing us.
They robbed from a group once as far as we know, with the use of firearms, and they're considered bandits.
Are Clementine and Jane considered bandits as well, for the rest of their lives, when they take medicine from a crippled teenager, with the use of a firearm?
You raise an interesting question...
I guess I'm more susceptible to associate Arvo and co. with the term bandits because I've only just seen them acting as bandits. As you may imagine it's difficult to see them as anything else than bandits.
Do you think Arvo doesn't think of Clem and Jane as bandits? He's only seen them robbing him, therefore it's hard to him to see them as anything more than bandits.
Another thing that could determine if it's correct to call them bandits or not is whether they were willing to repeat the act or not. I don't think I can answer that for the Russians, but I can definitely deny that for Clem and Jane.
Jane *disarmed Arvo.
I used the verb steal because it applies broadly to all cases, whether we took the medicine or not. I don't wan… moret to overlook the fact that half of the time they lost medicine along with the revolver.
My point is, it only turned into an ambush because the Russians made it an ambush because in my view of things our group did nothing to incite such antagonic and violent behavior from their part. We've discussed this before, they had the option to ask, but they didn't.
I coincide, then.
Can we say that both of us agree that, while Jane ignited the conflict by desarming and determinantly robbing Arvo; Vitali, Buricko and Natasha are more directly responsible because they decided to carry out an ambush?
I can understand this being their first time doing this, but that won't purge them from being called bandits. I mean, they all have to start somewhere, right? It seems that our friends here started… [view original content]
As you know I don't rule out the possibility of Arvo being in favour of ambushing us.
Hey, I didn't say he didn't! I purposely didn't include him in the statement so that both of us would be able to agree entirely.
You raise an interesting question...
I guess I'm more susceptible to associate Arvo and co. with the term bandits because I've only just seen them acting as bandits. As you may imagine it's difficult to see them as anything else than bandits.
I understand this sentiment, and I know for a fact that it is why so many people fail to empathize with Arvo; we only knew him under shitty circumstances that leave a bad taste in our mouth.
The little that we saw of him was him being grievous, submitted, defiant and merciless. Since we do not know how he was outside of these circumstances, our brain takes a shortcut and tells us that he probably was the same even before his first appearance. The same applies with Buricko, Vitali and Natasha, and then it is even worse, because not only did they act aggressively toward us and tried to kill us; but we did not even understand what they said, so we can empathize with them even less.
I've tried to erase that flawed shortcut. That is the key to stop being, from my perspective, biased toward disliking him without empathizing with him first. And it's something that comes naturally to me after these insightful ten months on the forum! You name a character and I will be able to comprehend why they did what they did in minutes. I am very glad to say that I have grown thanks to these discussions.
Do you think Arvo doesn't think of Clem and Jane as bandits? He's only seen them robbing him, therefore it's hard to him to see them as anything more than bandits.
Oh, I definitely believe that he saw Clementine and Jane as insensitive thugs; we know that Jane took his gun out of concern for the safety of the group, but he was probably desperate because he would have to deal with Buricko's threats for losing a precious firearm, if he managed to go back without being eaten and if this intimidating woman didn't kill him first.
Just as some player's brain does, his brain most likely took the shortcut as well, which is why he was prone to shooting Clementine in the first place. If he had realized that her own situation was quite difficult too, he would have decided to leave silently.
I used the verb steal because it applies broadly to all cases, whether we took the medicine or not. I don't want to overlook the fact that h… morealf of the time they lost medicine along with the revolver.
It doesn't exactly apply to all cases. In one version Jane steals from Arvo, on the other she takes out of caution.
But this is me just being nitpicky : p.
Can we say that both of us agree that, while Jane ignited the conflict by desarming and determinantly robbing Arvo; Vitali, Buricko and Natasha are more directly responsible because they decided to carry out an ambush?
Yeah, we can agree on that... Partly.
As you know I don't rule out the possibility of Arvo being in favour of ambushing us.
They robbed from a group once as far as we know, with the use of firearms, and they're considered bandits.
Are Clementine and Jane considered bandits as well, for the rest of their lives, when they take medicine from a crip… [view original content]
I don't hate Jane, but I was against her at the end because she wanted to provoke Kenny. During the argument she took it too far by bringing up Sarita, and blaming him for her death. I disagree with your statement that it had to be done, or that people hated Jane for hiding the baby. At the time, not everyone was sure what happened to AJ. I personally thought that Jane was attacked, and left the baby behind because it got bit or it was grabbed. Also by the logic of your statement, TTG had to make Kenny blame Clementine for Sarita's death in order to turn people against him. It's true that certain plot points are essential, but I can believe Jane hiding AJ more than Kenny blaming Clem for Sarita's death. The former action is supported by Jane's priority which is to convince Clementine to leave with her. Before Clem & Jane separated after the car crash, Jane tries to talk Clementine into leaving Kenny behind. Jane talked about leaving Sarah behind. Time and time again, Jane has shown that children aren't a weak spot for her - just Clementine. I don't think this makes her a terrible person, I think she just adapted those traits due to her sister. Now the latter where Kenny blames Clementine, I cannot believe that because it simply doesn't make sense. Even from an irrational way of thinking out of anger, it doesn't make sense. Kenny doesn't explain how it's Clementine's fault, it's just a random rant that abruptly comes out of nowhere regardless of how the situation happened. So that plot point was there by forced in a way to create conflict, but they figured it was essential. I believe that we don't need to have reasons to dislike any character, it should all be subjective. I rather not have a reason to choose Kenny over Jane, or vice-versa, due to some forced action. However like I said, Jane hiding AJ to provoke Kenny is more believable than Kenny blaming Clementine for Sarita's death, imo.
Comments
Arvo pulled the gun on Clementine...so fuck Arvo.
Just a few things...
How was AJ's life in any danger? He wasn't out in the cold, there were no walkers etc.
I don't believe there is ample evidence to prove this. The Russian group wait out there to ambush the group for several days and at the same exact place as well? It seems rather unlikely that they were looking for this specific group, otherwise that would be a huge coincidence.
I think Rebecca getting killed by the Russian group would've made Kenny's treatment of Arvo more justifiable, or at the very least, reasonable.
...Seriously? I'm talking about how Jane threw the first punch, Kenny followed suit with volley of actual punches, and the fact that the last thing Arvo does in the Season is shoot Clementine is supposed to justify all that?
Logic! Because THAT's how sequencing is supposed to work!
If someone pulled a gun on your friend...you cannot tell me you would have done anything different.
DabigRG: Oh I am sorry Arvo here take your gun that you aimed at my friend back...oh and take the meds back that you were mysteriously hiding in a garbage can back too....because you know, even though we have a guy with massive injuries and a pregnant woman, you obviously need them more than us...even though you were again..just saying...putting them in a garbage can....not suspicious at all.
Clementine will remember this idiocy?
No I still like her, but its a shame it makes you choose between them, it seemed rushed.
Sorry Daze, but I couldn't care less if Kenny is angry with life. It doesn't give him the right to beat up people that were unarmed, defenceless, tied up and already suffering.
Look, I deeply dislike Arvo myself for what he did at the ambush, but thankfully no-one died, therefore revenge couldn't be the reason for Kenny beating him since no-one really died.
Now, I dispise Arvo greatly for what he did too. I can relate with Kenny on that. But I cannot see how beating Arvo repeatedly was going to help him or anyone. The fact that he was doing it to make himself feel better only adds up to the already great disgust I have of him. It wasn't necessary, it was wrong and it had terrible irreversible consequences on all of us at the group. There's no justification. There may be a reason, but it doesn't justify.
You missed my point or something? I was pointing out that Kenny beating Arvo resulted the the breaking of our group entirely. Do you really think that if our group had treated Arvo better he would've shot Clem? No, I don't think he would; first because Mike and Bonnie would never be leaving us in the first place, and second because the kid wouldn't have been suffering from abuse for 1 whole day and taken to the edge. Can you deny that if Kenny hadn't done what he did, most of the suff I listed above wouldn't have happened. That maybe if Kenny didn't feel the need to beat a tied up kid, our group wouldn't have broken? It was his fault and I hold him acountable. And that's a valid reason to dislike him as far as I'm concerned.
I've already talked about this. Arvo encountering Clem and Jane was enevitable. Jane threatens to rob him but never does without your say so. She takes his gun because she's not fucking retardad to the point of leaving a threat armed! If the Russian group's problem was the fucking gun they should've asked for it politely like normal fellas instead of trying to take everything we had. I'm so sorry that I blame the Russian group more than Jane.
I'm not denying that her (and Clem's) actions undirectly led to that group of bandits ambushing us, but fact is the Russian group is more at fault here than Jane herself, don't you think?
And I know you're gonna say, 'Bonnie and Mike are more at fault with Kenny, don't you think?' or 'Arvo is more at fault with Kenny too don't you think?'. Well, let me remind you that while Kenny directly instigates Bonnie, Arvo, Mike and Jane, Jane never does with the Russian group (unless you robbed them, if so, it's on you too). She is forced by circumstance to take the gun of a potential threat, Kenny isn't forced by circumstance to beat the living hell out of Arvo.
Humm, let me guess, because that's no excuse for what he does??? Psychopaths are also 'sick in the head' did you know? It's an anti social disorder. But if you take 'oh he's sick in the head' to a court, one won't be absolved from their crimes.
And I'm very interested to see how being sick the the head can be used on his favour xD.
Yeah, and maybe Jane would've too, if headshooting was as simple as games make it out to be! What if she missed? It'd bye-bye everyone! Risks, you don't take them when there are lifes at stake.
And you make it seem like she manipulated him for giggles. Which is not true. She manipulates him in order to be able to approach him enough to be able to disarm him so he doesn't shoot anyone after he gets shot.
Yet Kenny's actions never are disgusting! They always seem to have a good justification for you.
Seriously, this is disgustingly hypocritical of you. You seem so concerned with Troy being killed by Jane in a painful way, but when it comes to Kenny beating an already psychologically struggling Arvo you sudenly don't give a fuck, right? I mean, it's Kenny so it's all ok! Afterall, he's sick in the head therefore he's justified!
... And I'm the one biased yall!
If that's foolish, then by all means call me a fool.
If Jane didn't care for liabilities she would've gone through the skylight the first chance she got. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she would never have dragged her sister across 4 states! If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have tried to save Sarah voluntarily on the observation deck. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have asked Clem to try and bring Kenny back. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have saved Rebecca and Clem in the herd and stuck with our group. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she would've just kept walking when she heard the gunshots. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she wouldn't have tried to find a place for Rebecca's labour. If Jane didn't care for liabilities, she would've actually killed AJ instead of putting him in a safe(r) car near the rest stop.
She was asking Rebecca what would she do once it was out. Would she try to find a place to settle down? Would she just kept wandering around?
It's beyond me how some people actually thought that she was saying 'stab the baby once it's out!!' because it's just ridiculous.
Ooh, and let's not forget that this vage, vage statement is the main argument people use to justify 'Jane doesn't like liabilities'.
Yeah, wrong of me to say every Kenny fan, I admit. There are reasonable ones out there (if you search very, very hard), thankfully.
No, don't be ridiculous. What the fuck, I never said that.
Thing is, Jane and Luke not banging wouldn't have stopped Rebecca from attracting walkers with her smell and noise. It also wouldn't have stopped the mini herd from going in that direction or being there at all. That's my point.
Then go right ahead, enlighten me. What undeniable truth did I omit there? If you don't tell me I don't have much to go on.
Honestly, I told things as I see them because I don't think I recall a moment where Kenny actively united our group.
And what indicates that? Can you tell me? I don't see it. Fundament your statements otherwise I won't be able to counterargument.
Oh, no, by all means I'm not implying! I'm saying that he had no justifiable reason to try to kill her. You stop being biased and start refering to Kenny's actions just as they are instead of sugercoating them.
I very much think he would. We all saw how quickly he was able to turn on Clem in episode 4 the minute she did something he didn't like.
What 'evil' things? Calling him an unstable asshole after he told her that she's nothing? Calling him out for almost beating Arvo to death?
Or are you talking about the Troy incident? Something that Kenny nor anyone else, ever condemened?
Tell me, are you having trouble reading what I wrote? When did I justify what Jane did? I argued that putting the baby in a car is better than having him outside in a raging blizzard.
And by the way, Jane doesn't leave the baby in a blizzard, she does the opposite. She puts him in a place safe from the blizzard which is, as I said, a better option that carrying him around in the actual blizzard.
Hummm, because 'Kenny is messed up in the head' as you said. Finding out that Jane lied would definitely agered him more, I have no doubt of that. We all know how rage blinds Kenny from everything else increasing that anger would've worsen the situation.
Actually, they potentially can.
I am sure that I have read records of people who were absolved from their crimes because they were mentally impaired at the time.
What about a bullet to the head after she shoots him the first time and he falls onto the ground?
If you are taking this approach with Daze, Iron, I feel the urge to point out that you are being hypocritical as well.
You avoided addressing the fact that Jane left somebody to suffer and be devoured in a fit of sadism, essentially doing what you claim that Daze was doing—deviating attention
You are completely right.
I think so as well, albeit I don't think that he would be in control of his impulses when he'd do so. Anger would drive him in that moment, overriding his wish to keep her safe
I agree with this, too. Conscious Kenny would have stopped attempting to kill her and instead would've forced her to tell him the location of the baby; but it was irrational and volatile Kenny who was gripping the knife.
True, but while you can take 'my client suffered from PTSD and acted one their instincts due to previous trauma' you cannot take 'my client suffers from psychopathy/sociopathy therefore they weren't in control of their actions' because it's not true, psychopaths and sociopaths and Kennys are clearly in control of their actions.
Maybe that was due to not wanting to waste a bullet just to make the last seconds of a guy who had previously abused and opressed them more comfortable.
Ok, I guess so. :< But I'll adress it now.
Whether that was sadism, pragmatism (not wanting to waste the bullet) or simply carelessy for Troy's fate is arguable. I'm willing to bet it was the latter maybe with a bit of the second.
Well, most of Kenny's bad actions in Season 2 happen because he is angry. I just don't think not having control over is anger justifies his acts and makes him less acountable.
EDIT: Comment nº 50 \0/
You didn't see it? He cares only for the baby. Forget that there is a very small child with them, (Clementine) and I'm not talking about basic needs, I'm talking about a concern, She's a lovely girl and mature so she does not jealous, but everyone saw it. Kenny neglected this sweet child! This baby will destroy many more things in her life. I wish he would die.
Oh yeah?
What about the part when Kenny immediately ran out of the house for Clementine to get her in the truck until she healed after she got shot by Arvo? Or the part when he voluntarily chooses not to stay at Wellington for both Clem and AJ?
Okay, that's really fucked up.
I have not seen it covered her coat, where did you see it? And it's not stupid, it's my opinion, please respect.
Oh yeah good point; I confused one thing with another. I edited my comment.
I didn't say it was stupid; I said it was fucked up. As in "sadistic" fucked up. How would you feel if someone left you in the frozen wastelands to die when you were a baby?
I was feel bad, but I hate the "idea" to put this baby, so make Clementine be less important for people and especially for Kenny. Lee would never do it, the concern was more for Clementine or that it was the same thing.
You're wrong m8, just deal with that
I know you were responding to someone else, but I'd yet to leave a comment on this, so...yeah.
He was in danger because, like all babies, he was completely defenceless and if something were to come along, such as, let's say, a Walker who have a tendency of popping up, to say the least, AJ would have no way to physically defend himself from the threat. Yes, there were no visible walkers around, but with it being a snow storm and the vision of all characters present being blurred because of it, it is highly possible that one may have been lurking about. AJ could've been killed and Jane, being Jane, felt that it was worth putting a child's life at risk (as well as her own and the others) simply so she could prove some point about Kenny. That's pure and simple endangerment, especially when you remember AJ is a baby and should not be left on his own.
Arvo says "I told them you are the ones who robbed me" to Clem and the group, no matter what situation you're in, so it's safe to say that he holds them responsible for Jane stealing his gun or if you agreed to rob him, the medicine. The Russians were waiting there, as they had predicated that the group would be traveling through there.
That is true, though because of Rebecca's death during the ambush, I suppose he felt that someone had to be blamed for it and considering Arvo was the only Russian not in an early grave, Kenny felt he was the best candidate for such blame. And he had just tried to have everyone killed, so I do think that while Kenny's treatment isn't right, it is understandable and makes sense with regards to the turn of events.
Oooh, you said "pulled a gun" in reference to their first meeting. Sorry, I'm just so used to seeing "Arvo shot muh Clemmy Cloo NEEERRR!"
Plus, Arvo made it clear before he opened his mouth that he wasn't planning on actually shooting anyone, much less a little girl, even in self defense. I can at least understand disarming him for a sec to talk things over since he might pull a Michelle and pull the trigger by accident, but deciding to up and rob him was way too far. There were better ways to go about that situation than trying to rob some random guy of his sister's medicine: making a deal like civilized folk is the obvious one.
It's not quite the same. Kenny directly angered Arvo which made him shoot Clem. Jane took a gun from Arvo and the Russain group attacked us not because of the tiny gun, but because they were bandits as I explain in this post.
Hence why she manipulated him to get her hand close enough to his cock.
Oh my god, what is this.
A better life? DUde, he was just as bad and opressive as Carver, she was using her ahem natural charm in order to make Troy think with his 'chicken' so she could get him off guard.
You dislike Arvo but don't dislike Troy? ^~^
And how so? I don't recall Jane mentally torturing anyone (unless we're still talking about Troy which again, she killed because he was about to shoot us not because 'lololololol lez mek him suffar!').
Kenny did mentally torture Ben in Season 1, though.
Then she hears them screaming and is the one who helps the most. It is as they say: actions speak louder than words.
And I never said that you specifically said that, just that many Kenny fans and Jane haters take her words as if she was implying that they should kill the baby.
Actually, the user that comes to mind when I think about 'reasonable Kenny fan' is @Kenny726. Then I start recalling some of that users posts. Then sudenly the music 'Crazy in Love' - Beyonce comes to mind. Then I start picturing a tied up Sponge Bob with a very lewd expression. Then I have the suden urge to kill myself.
I meant what evil things Kenny blamed Jane for, not what evil things people everywhere make up.
Dude, what. Just because I made a brief quote of 7 words, my whooole point goes to the dumpster? Ok I'll rephrase without your quote if that's bothering you:
Because Kenny is mentally unstable and can't control is anger.
Is that better? Can you see my point now?
Please tell me if you're annoyed by me jumping into your discussions!
The translated dialogue of the ambush goes like this…
…at a point, and I believe that it shows just how inexperienced this group was at robbing others; their plan was all over the place. The way that I see it, the only reason why they ambushed us was because Jane stole from Arvo, and Buricko and Vitali, being the dumbasses that they seem to be, decided that it would be fun to get retribution; and Natasha was pissed because her brother was mugged.
Uh, looks like @OneWayNoWay summed it up pretty nicely, so just a quick overview:
1. Her plan could've gotten them all killed, with Clementine being shoved aside a few times during the fight for trying to stop them and AJ at risk of either a wandering walker, the cold air pouring in through the window, or starving due to no one knowing where he is in the event of Jane's death.
2. Arvo mentioned the fact that they robbed him specifically, with Clementine's presence being the main reason he stopped the group. It's safe to assume that had Jane not stuck him up, he would have no reason to come after the group.
3. True, but I was referring to either Nick, Sarah, or maybe even Troy dying there. Rebecca suddenly turning in the middle of a tense situation and Clementine/Kenny putting her down was the reason Buricko opened fire, so it's safe to assume that he wouldn't have done so otherwise. Nothing (besides self-preservation) stopping Vitali, though.
Thanks for the preemptive, but one small note:
Arvo was against actually hurting the group directly and the whole "put down your guns so we take your things" deal was Buricko's idea. When it became clear that things weren't gonna end well and AJ's presence was revealed, Arvo, Natasha, Mike, and technically Kenny all tried to get everyone to back down and stop anyone from getting killed. Yes, Arvo was the liaison of the Russian group, but it was really Jane and Clementine/Kenny's fault that firefight happened.
Ken u plz giv mee in eggs ample uv wen Kenny cairt ab owt AyJay moar then Clem-in-tine?
It's a forum, we're meant to have discussions. If you're not putting your views out there, then you're doing it wrong.
Alright. I can understand this being their first time doing this, but that won't purge them from being called bandits. I mean, they all have to start somewhere, right? It seems that our friends here started with our group.
Jane *disarmed Arvo.
You won't see me denying that Jane's actions undirectly caused whatever inspired the Russians to ambush us. My point is, it only turned into an ambush because the Russians made it an ambush because in my view of things our group did nothing to incite such antagonic and violent behavior from their part. We've discussed this before, they had the option to ask, but they didn't. Why? Because they're bad people.
Kenny actions on the other hand were direct punches (figuratively and literally) to the person who preformed the wrong act (Arvo shooting Clem). The beatings weren't forced by circumstance nor carried out of caution like Jane's actions, and that's why I can condemn his acts, and not hers.
Arvo had some justificaton, the Russians did not have any considering they could've taken another course of action called talking.
I can't be more clear than this.
This is your assumption, right? I've seen the dialogue line in that thread, and never indicated if Arvo or Natasha were aginst it beforehand. You're making an assumption based on Buricko and Vitali's thougher looks.
Well, I mean Arvo did go along with the plan and seemed okay with what Buricko had suggested, holding them up and then taking their supplies. This act, the stealing of one's supplies which can be very difficult to come by, basically means a likely death for the group unless they luckily come across something by chance and does show that Arvo really couldn't have given a shit if they died. It's also most possible that it was Arvo's idea in the first place, as we know that he had informed the other Russians of what had happened with Jane/Clementine.
But, yeah, Arvo didn't want the actual shootout to happen, as he did express concern for AJ and wouldn't have wanted to put his life and his sisters' at risk. If anyone's to blame it was Jane, considering it were her actions that led to the ambush, though Arvo still plays his role.
I used the verb steal because it applies broadly to all cases, whether we took the medicine or not. I don't want to overlook the fact that half of the time they lost medicine along with the revolver.
I coincide, then.
Can we say that both of us agree that, while Jane ignited the conflict by desarming and determinantly robbing Arvo; Vitali, Buricko and Natasha are more directly responsible because they decided to carry out an ambush?
They robbed from a group once as far as we know, with the use of firearms, and they're considered bandits.
Are Clementine and Jane considered bandits as well, for the rest of their lives, when they take medicine from a crippled teenager, with the use of a firearm?
Aw thanks! I was under the impression that no one knew who I was.
I'm glad to hear that I have that effect on people! I'm just gonna leave this here so that my post uh...furthers the discussion:
What did I even walk in on here?
Just wanted to add lets say she didnt hid the baby then there would be nothing to fight about and lets say she did bring the baby and it died from the cold and Kenny saw then i think he would be pissed but wouldnt find her so all this that was wrote is bs
I can never unsee this.
I'm Sleepie!
When either Janiacs or Kensplainers hear someone talking crap about their hero...it is like this...
It doesn't exactly apply to all cases. In one version Jane steals from Arvo, on the other she takes out of caution.
But this is me just being nitpicky : p.
Yeah, we can agree on that... Partly.
As you know I don't rule out the possibility of Arvo being in favour of ambushing us.
You raise an interesting question...
I guess I'm more susceptible to associate Arvo and co. with the term bandits because I've only just seen them acting as bandits. As you may imagine it's difficult to see them as anything else than bandits.
Do you think Arvo doesn't think of Clem and Jane as bandits? He's only seen them robbing him, therefore it's hard to him to see them as anything more than bandits.
Another thing that could determine if it's correct to call them bandits or not is whether they were willing to repeat the act or not. I don't think I can answer that for the Russians, but I can definitely deny that for Clem and Jane.
Hey, I didn't say he didn't! I purposely didn't include him in the statement so that both of us would be able to agree entirely.
I understand this sentiment, and I know for a fact that it is why so many people fail to empathize with Arvo; we only knew him under shitty circumstances that leave a bad taste in our mouth.
The little that we saw of him was him being grievous, submitted, defiant and merciless. Since we do not know how he was outside of these circumstances, our brain takes a shortcut and tells us that he probably was the same even before his first appearance. The same applies with Buricko, Vitali and Natasha, and then it is even worse, because not only did they act aggressively toward us and tried to kill us; but we did not even understand what they said, so we can empathize with them even less.
I've tried to erase that flawed shortcut. That is the key to stop being, from my perspective, biased toward disliking him without empathizing with him first. And it's something that comes naturally to me after these insightful ten months on the forum! You name a character and I will be able to comprehend why they did what they did in minutes. I am very glad to say that I have grown thanks to these discussions.
Oh, I definitely believe that he saw Clementine and Jane as insensitive thugs; we know that Jane took his gun out of concern for the safety of the group, but he was probably desperate because he would have to deal with Buricko's threats for losing a precious firearm, if he managed to go back without being eaten and if this intimidating woman didn't kill him first.
Just as some player's brain does, his brain most likely took the shortcut as well, which is why he was prone to shooting Clementine in the first place. If he had realized that her own situation was quite difficult too, he would have decided to leave silently.
I don't hate Jane, but I was against her at the end because she wanted to provoke Kenny. During the argument she took it too far by bringing up Sarita, and blaming him for her death. I disagree with your statement that it had to be done, or that people hated Jane for hiding the baby. At the time, not everyone was sure what happened to AJ. I personally thought that Jane was attacked, and left the baby behind because it got bit or it was grabbed. Also by the logic of your statement, TTG had to make Kenny blame Clementine for Sarita's death in order to turn people against him. It's true that certain plot points are essential, but I can believe Jane hiding AJ more than Kenny blaming Clem for Sarita's death. The former action is supported by Jane's priority which is to convince Clementine to leave with her. Before Clem & Jane separated after the car crash, Jane tries to talk Clementine into leaving Kenny behind. Jane talked about leaving Sarah behind. Time and time again, Jane has shown that children aren't a weak spot for her - just Clementine. I don't think this makes her a terrible person, I think she just adapted those traits due to her sister. Now the latter where Kenny blames Clementine, I cannot believe that because it simply doesn't make sense. Even from an irrational way of thinking out of anger, it doesn't make sense. Kenny doesn't explain how it's Clementine's fault, it's just a random rant that abruptly comes out of nowhere regardless of how the situation happened. So that plot point was there by forced in a way to create conflict, but they figured it was essential. I believe that we don't need to have reasons to dislike any character, it should all be subjective. I rather not have a reason to choose Kenny over Jane, or vice-versa, due to some forced action. However like I said, Jane hiding AJ to provoke Kenny is more believable than Kenny blaming Clementine for Sarita's death, imo.
Ironically enough, I'd rather have Luther as my comrade than either of the two.
Telltale if you are ever going to do a ''Kenny VS Jane'' stunt again... Please for the love of God
