I don't condone cheaters, sorry. I don't think she's a bad person and I know she's lonely. It's still wrong. They had no more proof David was dead than he was alive. David couldn't get back to the house and probably didn't assume they would be there and after an certain time has passed finding them would be small to no chances. I would also not take a child away from his father who is clearly not a menace in my game. You have the right to ur opinion but don't expect others to all agree with you.
1 - It's the damn zombie apocalypse. People just want to live. And do what they didn't had the chance before, because, you know, anyone can die in any second.
2 - Kate is married, but she is free. She isn't David's property. You can CLEARLY see some kind of "abuse" by the way she was always scared of him.
Is she a whore because she loves someone else? What about David, who clearly treat his wife like shit when no one is looking? If you think this is normal then you are an asshole just like him.
David and Javier are brothers. Yes. But who cares? The assholes will be assholes. Just because he's the brother of the main character (I love Javi!) it doesn't mean that I have to love David too.
But trust me, I hope I'm wrong. One last chance to find out.
Uh...sorry to say this, but you clearly weren't paying attention to the finer details.
Clint is not innocent. He lets Ava/Tripp get executed right in front of everyone, and then still supports the woman who did it. His bright idea is to banish them all to a horde of walkers instead.
Clint was trying supportive beforehand, true, but even he was questioning Joan's decision to make Javier choose who she won't execute precisely because execution in and of itself is something they didn't believe in. And it's seeing her disregard his objection and order the death anyway that causes him to step up and overrule her from that point on.
His deal was for everyone left of Javier's group to be escorted out of the city, which Joan pretended to be fine with purely for the sake of taunting them that the herd might kill them, and Javier accepting the deal has him point blank overrule her objection.
And also, Kate is responsible for her own death (if she died). She drove balls to the walls right into a wall with no regard for human life. She nearly kills javi/clementine or determinantely kills Conrad who saves Javier. None of that is David's fault, Kate was driving like a maniac when she's supposed to be the getaway vehicle. Kate is the cause of all the walkers getting into the town.
Kate drove "recklessly" because she couldn't see: she was trying to come rescue them from the ensuing riot and one of Joan's men threw a molotov into her windshield, causing her to lose sight of the road, determinately run over Conrad, and crash into the wall.
Clint is not innocent. He lets Ava/Tripp get executed right in front of everyone, and then still supports the woman who did it. His bright i… moredea is to banish them all to a horde of walkers instead. David's rage at Ava's death is understandable, but I will concede that it was a bad idea to kill Clint in return.
And also, Kate is responsible for her own death (if she died). She drove balls to the walls right into a wall with no regard for human life. She nearly kills javi/clementine or determinantely kills Conrad who saves Javier. None of that is David's fault, Kate was driving like a maniac when she's supposed to be the getaway vehicle. Kate is the cause of all the walkers getting into the town.
But what I really wanted to tell you is to just not call people dumb. Nobody has to argue their opinion unless they're trying to change someone else's opinion. Calling someone dumb because they aren't bothering to change your mind is not a good de… [view original content]
Nah, I'm fine with David. I know he loves me, deep down.
Kate... while I understand why people would want to get together with her, not for my Javi. He does have some love for her, but he doesn't want to get in the way of her and David's relationship, lest he face the consequences.
I know this sibling relationship from personal experience, too:
I have a sister and she doesn't show her love towards me very much. She gets mad at me, annoyed, and doesn't ever want to do anything, go out or talk much. This is probably because I showed my affection towards her a lot when she was young, and I guess she eventually got annoyed by how much I hugged her and stuff. But, yes she still shows her love for me, sometimes. It hurts me to see her [tell me off] a lot, but I know she does love me. It's fine.
David doesn't care about his family. He left them for his evil will to go back to the army. Also, after the outbreak he never searched for them.
Everyone needs to stop using the excuse " David abandoned his family that why I hate him." People forget that David has the worst first day of the Outbreak of any character in TWD. In the first day , he puts down his mom and hours later puts down his uncle. At the time, he probably fears that he would have to put down the rest of the family or they didn't make it, and couldn't deal with the possibility, so he does go back.
Nah, I'm fine with David. I know he loves me, deep down.
Kate... while I understand why people would want to get together with her, not fo… morer my Javi. He does have some love for her, but he doesn't want to get in the way of her and David's relationship, lest he face the consequences.
I know this sibling relationship from personal experience, too:
I have a sister and she doesn't show her love towards me very much. She gets mad at me, annoyed, and doesn't ever want to do anything, go out or talk much. This is probably because I showed my affection towards her a lot when she was young, and I guess she eventually got annoyed by how much I hugged her and stuff. But, yes she still shows her love for me, sometimes. It hurts me to see her [tell me off] a lot, but I know she does love me. It's fine.
Plus, can't turn down that bromance.
Yes, I was paying attention to the details. I saw what happened. I played through the episode multiple times...
Just because Clint didn't pull the trigger doesn't make him any less guilty. He knows there's a herd, and you're acting like they're going to escort them out and help them escape the herd. In no way do they say there's going to be escorts... I guess you just added that "finer detail" into the story? I think it's more clear that you're the one who missed out on the finer details. They're sending them away into the herd, alone, when they could just hold them until it passes. Clint is not innocent. If you think he is, then fine that's up to you. But the way I see it, just because he doesn't fully agree with what is going on, doesn't make his plan to send them to walkers much better, AFTER the murder occurred. If he wanted to, he could've objected before Joan killed Ava/Tripp, so why didn't he? Clint is prepared to go on about his day as if nothing ever happened after Javi's group is exiled.
And yeah, I see that Kate couldn't see, but to blame David for her driving like a blind, moronic maniac, is just throwing blame onto someone. You don't drive like that when you can't see. She's driving blindly through tear gas before she gets hit with the Molotov, and then doesn't hit her breaks when she does get hit with it. It's nobody's fault she died, regardless of whatever the reason is, idk what you're arguing here, point is it's not David's fault. I know the finer details of her crash scene, if that was the point you were trying to make.
Uh...sorry to say this, but you clearly weren't paying attention to the finer details.
Clint is not innocent. He lets Ava/Tripp get ex… moreecuted right in front of everyone, and then still supports the woman who did it. His bright idea is to banish them all to a horde of walkers instead.
Clint was trying supportive beforehand, true, but even he was questioning Joan's decision to make Javier choose who she won't execute precisely because execution in and of itself is something they didn't believe in. And it's seeing her disregard his objection and order the death anyway that causes him to step up and overrule her from that point on.
His deal was for everyone left of Javier's group to be escorted out of the city, which Joan pretended to be fine with purely for the sake of taunting them that the herd might kill them, and Javier accepting the deal has him point blank overrule her objection.
And also, Kate is responsible for her o… [view original content]
Clint is, as I said, essentially innocent. Yes, he did not do anything to stop Joan from getting Ava/Tripp killed. Maybe he did not think he could. Maybe he though Joan was bluffing. What matters though is that he was clearly not ok with it. He did nothing to warrant getting killed which makes David a murderer and furthers my point: David can't see past his own selfish revenge at this moment. His family, his community all went away, there was only what he felt. He followed his whim and it resulted in the death of many of those he claimed to care about and want to protect.
Kate feeling the need to drive into the square to pick Javier and the others up is only due to hearing the fight break out which was caused by David. Kate did not choose to get a molotov thrown into her windshield, therefore getting blindsided and exploding one of Richmond's walls. David chose to aim a gun at Clint and refusing the deal knowing it would be endangering his family, himself and everyone at Richmond in the process. He knew the consequences of his action and still acted. That's why one can blame David and not Kate.
If you're not willing to fundament your opinion, you can't demand people to respect it. These forums very point is to discuss, argue and debate about these games but people here now seem to be more interested in hiding behind "it's my opinion, no one can tell me I'm wrong", than actually discussing - which goes against this forum's very purpose.
Clint is not innocent. He lets Ava/Tripp get executed right in front of everyone, and then still supports the woman who did it. His bright i… moredea is to banish them all to a horde of walkers instead. David's rage at Ava's death is understandable, but I will concede that it was a bad idea to kill Clint in return.
And also, Kate is responsible for her own death (if she died). She drove balls to the walls right into a wall with no regard for human life. She nearly kills javi/clementine or determinantely kills Conrad who saves Javier. None of that is David's fault, Kate was driving like a maniac when she's supposed to be the getaway vehicle. Kate is the cause of all the walkers getting into the town.
But what I really wanted to tell you is to just not call people dumb. Nobody has to argue their opinion unless they're trying to change someone else's opinion. Calling someone dumb because they aren't bothering to change your mind is not a good de… [view original content]
In all fairness, Clint hasn't been essentially innocent since the trial. In siding with Joan over David/Javier, he's condoning the raids of other colonies and the deaths of countless people - as persuaded by Joan. He had an opportunity then and there to do something upon realizing all of their ill gotten gains were tainted in the blood of others. At the gallows what's clear is - he doesn't have the stomach for it - not when it's people he knows and happening in front of his eyes. However, if we're using the conjecture of 'maybe's and what if's ', if they* had* taken the deal and simply walked out into a herd of walkers - this still would have left Joan in charge of a community supported by Clint that raids and destroys other communities.
Kate is still responsible for her own actions and choices. David didn't throw the molotov into her windshield. He didn't ask nor tell her to drive into the square. It's an unfortunate incident where blame for her death not need to be assigned to anyone other than the person throwing the cocktail.
Clint is, as I said, essentially innocent. Yes, he did not do anything to stop Joan from getting Ava/Tripp killed. Maybe he did not think he… more could. Maybe he though Joan was bluffing. What matters though is that he was clearly not ok with it. He did nothing to warrant getting killed which makes David a murderer and furthers my point: David can't see past his own selfish revenge at this moment. His family, his community all went away, there was only what he felt. He followed his whim and it resulted in the death of many of those he claimed to care about and want to protect.
Kate feeling the need to drive into the square to pick Javier and the others up is only due to hearing the fight break out which was caused by David. Kate did not choose to get a molotov thrown into her windshield, therefore getting blindsided and exploding one of Richmond's walls. David chose to aim a gun at Clint and refusing the deal knowing it would be endangering his… [view original content]
David doesn't care about his family. He left them for his evil will to go back to the army. Also, after the outbreak he never searched for t… morehem.
Everyone needs to stop using the excuse " David abandoned his family that why I hate him." People forget that David has the worst first day of the Outbreak of any character in TWD. In the first day , he puts down his mom and hours later puts down his uncle. At the time, he probably fears that he would have to put down the rest of the family or they didn't make it, and couldn't deal with the possibility, so he does go back.
David doesn't care about his family. He left them for his evil will to go back to the army. Also, after the outbreak he never searched for t… morehem.
Everyone needs to stop using the excuse " David abandoned his family that why I hate him." People forget that David has the worst first day of the Outbreak of any character in TWD. In the first day , he puts down his mom and hours later puts down his uncle. At the time, he probably fears that he would have to put down the rest of the family or they didn't make it, and couldn't deal with the possibility, so he does go back.
I understand you think it's David's fault when you start playing the blame game, but the blame game is just that, the blame game. If we play this game, we could and should just blame Eleanor for the entire situation going down the way it did, right? If she doesn't betray us, maybe nobody gets executed on stage and David doesn't feel the need to kill anyone. It's just a game of maybes and what ifs. There's no telling that this wouldn't have gone down any different if we did take the deal and then got betrayed by Joan which is what David thinks will happen anyways. Blaming David for everything is just speculation.
I also understand what you're saying about not fundamenting your opinion. You're absolutely right, you've no need to respect anyone's opinion, but to say that it makes you dumb not to fundament your opinion, is simply you having no respect for the actual person, not their opinion.
Clint is, as I said, essentially innocent. Yes, he did not do anything to stop Joan from getting Ava/Tripp killed. Maybe he did not think he… more could. Maybe he though Joan was bluffing. What matters though is that he was clearly not ok with it. He did nothing to warrant getting killed which makes David a murderer and furthers my point: David can't see past his own selfish revenge at this moment. His family, his community all went away, there was only what he felt. He followed his whim and it resulted in the death of many of those he claimed to care about and want to protect.
Kate feeling the need to drive into the square to pick Javier and the others up is only due to hearing the fight break out which was caused by David. Kate did not choose to get a molotov thrown into her windshield, therefore getting blindsided and exploding one of Richmond's walls. David chose to aim a gun at Clint and refusing the deal knowing it would be endangering his… [view original content]
Yes. And I am fine with that. He respects his brother, and even though he could have, at any time done any advancements towards Kate, now that David is in the picture he just wants to patch up their relationship, instead of hurting it more by being with Kate.
Well I mean you kinda did analyze him. You gave convincing arguments to debunk OP's perspective of the character. While not every character in this season is worth debating on, David is a fine and realistic character. That's the very reason why not everyone likes or dislikes him ( and we get these kind of threads : which is good, because that's the whole point of a forum ). We might complain about the love triangle as well or take sides, but both Kate and David are characters that I, personnaly, find interesting. They are quite realistic to me : selfishness, irresponsability, the excessive need to feel in control, jealousy... Those are very real themes. And though we might feel they are overused ( maybe ? ) it doesn't matter because almost everyone has a bit of all those.
I completely agree with you when it comes to what David relationships with his family might mean. It's exactly how I feel about him. However, I, for one, like the fact Telltale's gives us a plurality of opinion about David, one of them being from most people's favorite ( Clementine ) but also selfish but intuitive characters like Kate, pessimists and broken characters like Lingard, as well as loyal and straightforward characters like Ava. It actually gives us something, as little as it might be in your eyes, to discuss about.
For example, David's decision regarding Clem and AJ : was he right or wrong ? Is she justified in her actions/anger ? ( Let's remember she hates him so much she shoots in Javi's direction when this one tries to let David in as he is stuck outside with a herd of walkers ).
David and Clementines relationship is something to discuss about, David and Kate's as well... That's pretty harsh to say that in this particular subject we don't have much to ''analyze''. Javi, David and Kate's relationship being pretty much the center of that new season, we have a lot. But how you feel about the season and it's characters is another thing. Obviously you aren't obligated to feel interested in these characters. I am, because I like all these aspects in a character. It certainly doesn't have to be the case for you. What's curious is that you gave us a good argumentation/analisies and then procede to say it's more ''guessing than analyzing'' when you didn't ''guess'' anything really. You gave us solid facts.
David and Javier's relationship has been one of the best part of the season for me. I kind of understand a good part of David's character ( including the need to feel in control/important/looked up to ) is based on the jealousy he feels toward his younger brother. He has said it before. In the first episode he precises : his father, as he died, talked about Javier rather than him. Seems peculiar, to him at least, to talk about the one of the two who wasn't present... once again.
I could see David and Javier's fight coming from miles away... I think Javi, of all people, taking his family away from him could be the worst thing that could happen to him especially after what happened to his community. That's the biggest ''betrayal'' there is for a character like him...
Oh come on, there's no need to be like that. Some people like Kate, others like David and a bunch love them both and you know what, it's totally fine because it's their opinion, they just got a different feel than you did while playing. I'd also argue that's it's actually good writing as it effectively splits the fandom, if every character was either hated or worshipped it wouldn't be fun, instead they each have their flaws and qualities which draw or drive away the player.
Now that i think about it, it's funny how people think it's a given that David put down Yaya and that Javi put down Hector. For all we know David couldn't summon the resolve to kill his own mom and just left her in the car.
I agree though. David's first day involves watching his dad and his mom die and turn. His life turns to shit pretty much immediately when Javi shows up too. I feel bad for the guy.
What you consider to be abandonment is in all reality the definition of loyalty. We're not abandoning her to that "psychopath", but we're also not betraying our brother's trust.
at this point this argument between David and Kate is only still happening because in episode 2 Kate and David have that argument in the flashback which misleads a lot of people into thinking that their relationship was an abusive one even thought David himself tells Javier he s leaving in episode 4 s flashback because of the fights he s having with Kate while if he truly was abusing her he would not have done that .
When he finds out Mari is dead, he doesn't seem too shocked or sad, that is pretty weird if you ask me.
After 3 years in the apocalypse he probably just thought that she had died, so by the time he actually finds out the news is more like a sad confirmation instead of a heart-breaking new story. Plus when you tell him that she got shot, he is shown to be somewhat shocked/saddened. Not to mention Gabe told when he went with Kate so his major reaction would have been off-screen.
Ok, we went off on a little tangent here. My original point was that David was given the choice to trust Javier's judgment and take the deal, giving his family, himself and others a shot of getting out of there unarmed, but no, he chose to attack Clint, which not only put Javier, Gabe and Clem in great immediate danger (and he was perfectly aware this would happen ), which they only survived due to the convenient meatshields, and basically risked forcing "his people" into civil war. And that's what I find illegitimate and condemnable about David in this scene, he can't see past his whim and his revenge, that is not deniable.
Playing the blame game is as much discussing the game as anything else. Yes, there were many actions made my many people that led to that moment. I don't deny that. I am however claiming David is an obvious catalyst to the catastrophe that happens at the end of episode 4. Among many others, yes, sure, but his selfish actions did undeniably play a part in getting where we are and I am sure had he not done what he did we would've been in a completely different situation, better? worse? I would say the former, but I know I can't be sure.
Well, you are right in that regard, I don't think I respect people who come to a forum with their opinions, and when someone contests, they play the victim and claim "it's only their opinion" as if it gives them any legitimacy at all.
I understand you think it's David's fault when you start playing the blame game, but the blame game is just that, the blame game. If we play… more this game, we could and should just blame Eleanor for the entire situation going down the way it did, right? If she doesn't betray us, maybe nobody gets executed on stage and David doesn't feel the need to kill anyone. It's just a game of maybes and what ifs. There's no telling that this wouldn't have gone down any different if we did take the deal and then got betrayed by Joan which is what David thinks will happen anyways. Blaming David for everything is just speculation.
I also understand what you're saying about not fundamenting your opinion. You're absolutely right, you've no need to respect anyone's opinion, but to say that it makes you dumb not to fundament your opinion, is simply you having no respect for the actual person, not their opinion.
I can appreciate your passion, TakeThemDown, even if I disagree. I'm not interested in Kate romantically, and I'm not abandoning her to a psychopath. She's still perfectly capable of going her own way, simply not with me.
It makes sense in the narrative that David tells you what to do, and to follow his lead as within ANF he is one of the leaders. The community has standards and rules that are unfamiliar to Javier. He wants your trust, needs your patience, and in no uncertain terms. There's no time for a gentle and lengthy explanation of the politics of the community. Kate is shot, bleeding in his arms. This is so urgent that he sets aside the explanation as to why Mariana isn't with you in that moment. Kate needs a doctor, now.
Once that immediate concern is taken care of, David works to get Javier out of quarantine - which is quite sensible for a community to have considering the situation they live in even beyond the zombie virus you could be bringing anything into their community to expose them to that would threaten it. He also finds out about Mariana through Gabe, which he discusses some with Javier later. He asks you what she was like - grasping for some memory, some sense of her as she was before she died.
When he asks you not to reveal what happened to Mariana, he's thinking of his family - Kate injured and in need of time to heal, Gabe newly reunited with him, and the citizens of the community he lives in. He doesn't know at this point how far this thing goes, who's involved, and doesn't want a target on anyone until he can figure out who the enemies are. He ensures you're supplied when you leave, and meets with you later to help sort this out.
Don't mistake anything I say as portraying him as an angelic figure. This reasonable side of him wanes as the truth unravels along with the very foundation of his life - old and new. The discovery that the community he helped to build and defend butchered other innocent people for their supplies right underneath his watch, and that complacency from people he trusted and believed in lit him up. He's outraged, and he's willing to die to put an end to the blood being spilled by his own people if he has to.
In all of this - it doesn't mean that David is good and Kate is evil. Neither is good nor evil. Both make poor choices - even if some of those poor choices have good reasoning behind them. I stand with my brother because he's right. The raiding has got to be stopped. I understand everyone's objection to not taking the deal and leaving just as much. A small band of people standing up to the many is a terrifying and deadly prospect. Had Eleanor not betrayed us, we might've been able to move the people of the community to revolt and overthrow it with better odds - but she did.
So we're left with a choice - to take the deal or take the shot. Take the deal, we walk out into a hoard of zombies and even if we escape that, the possibility of somehow returning later with better weapons to deal with Joan is minimal. We might make it with who we have, but how many others are we condemning to die as the raids continue? Whichever choice you pick here doesn't matter. There's nothing inherently wrong with self-preservation or altruism. It does feel strange to me that Clementine is not the voice of thinking of others outside the group here - but it's clear that the little girl that didn't want me to steal from an abandoned vehicle has lost that part of herself when she lost everyone who had been with her at that car.
Comments
I don't condone cheaters, sorry. I don't think she's a bad person and I know she's lonely. It's still wrong. They had no more proof David was dead than he was alive. David couldn't get back to the house and probably didn't assume they would be there and after an certain time has passed finding them would be small to no chances. I would also not take a child away from his father who is clearly not a menace in my game. You have the right to ur opinion but don't expect others to all agree with you.
1 - It's the damn zombie apocalypse. People just want to live. And do what they didn't had the chance before, because, you know, anyone can die in any second.
2 - Kate is married, but she is free. She isn't David's property. You can CLEARLY see some kind of "abuse" by the way she was always scared of him.
Is she a whore because she loves someone else? What about David, who clearly treat his wife like shit when no one is looking? If you think this is normal then you are an asshole just like him.
David and Javier are brothers. Yes. But who cares? The assholes will be assholes. Just because he's the brother of the main character (I love Javi!) it doesn't mean that I have to love David too.
But trust me, I hope I'm wrong. One last chance to find out.
Uh...sorry to say this, but you clearly weren't paying attention to the finer details.
Clint was trying supportive beforehand, true, but even he was questioning Joan's decision to make Javier choose who she won't execute precisely because execution in and of itself is something they didn't believe in. And it's seeing her disregard his objection and order the death anyway that causes him to step up and overrule her from that point on.
His deal was for everyone left of Javier's group to be escorted out of the city, which Joan pretended to be fine with purely for the sake of taunting them that the herd might kill them, and Javier accepting the deal has him point blank overrule her objection.
Kate drove "recklessly" because she couldn't see: she was trying to come rescue them from the ensuing riot and one of Joan's men threw a molotov into her windshield, causing her to lose sight of the road, determinately run over Conrad, and crash into the wall.
Nah, I'm fine with David. I know he loves me, deep down.
Kate... while I understand why people would want to get together with her, not for my Javi. He does have some love for her, but he doesn't want to get in the way of her and David's relationship, lest he face the consequences.
I know this sibling relationship from personal experience, too:
I have a sister and she doesn't show her love towards me very much. She gets mad at me, annoyed, and doesn't ever want to do anything, go out or talk much. This is probably because I showed my affection towards her a lot when she was young, and I guess she eventually got annoyed by how much I hugged her and stuff. But, yes she still shows her love for me, sometimes. It hurts me to see her [tell me off] a lot, but I know she does love me. It's fine.
Plus, can't turn down that bromance.
Everyone needs to stop using the excuse " David abandoned his family that why I hate him." People forget that David has the worst first day of the Outbreak of any character in TWD. In the first day , he puts down his mom and hours later puts down his uncle. At the time, he probably fears that he would have to put down the rest of the family or they didn't make it, and couldn't deal with the possibility, so he does go back.
Out of curiosity are you saying that you're Javi does have feelings for Kate but just doesn't want to betray David's trust?
Yes, I was paying attention to the details. I saw what happened. I played through the episode multiple times...
Just because Clint didn't pull the trigger doesn't make him any less guilty. He knows there's a herd, and you're acting like they're going to escort them out and help them escape the herd. In no way do they say there's going to be escorts... I guess you just added that "finer detail" into the story? I think it's more clear that you're the one who missed out on the finer details. They're sending them away into the herd, alone, when they could just hold them until it passes. Clint is not innocent. If you think he is, then fine that's up to you. But the way I see it, just because he doesn't fully agree with what is going on, doesn't make his plan to send them to walkers much better, AFTER the murder occurred. If he wanted to, he could've objected before Joan killed Ava/Tripp, so why didn't he? Clint is prepared to go on about his day as if nothing ever happened after Javi's group is exiled.
And yeah, I see that Kate couldn't see, but to blame David for her driving like a blind, moronic maniac, is just throwing blame onto someone. You don't drive like that when you can't see. She's driving blindly through tear gas before she gets hit with the Molotov, and then doesn't hit her breaks when she does get hit with it. It's nobody's fault she died, regardless of whatever the reason is, idk what you're arguing here, point is it's not David's fault. I know the finer details of her crash scene, if that was the point you were trying to make.
Clint is, as I said, essentially innocent. Yes, he did not do anything to stop Joan from getting Ava/Tripp killed. Maybe he did not think he could. Maybe he though Joan was bluffing. What matters though is that he was clearly not ok with it. He did nothing to warrant getting killed which makes David a murderer and furthers my point: David can't see past his own selfish revenge at this moment. His family, his community all went away, there was only what he felt. He followed his whim and it resulted in the death of many of those he claimed to care about and want to protect.
Kate feeling the need to drive into the square to pick Javier and the others up is only due to hearing the fight break out which was caused by David. Kate did not choose to get a molotov thrown into her windshield, therefore getting blindsided and exploding one of Richmond's walls. David chose to aim a gun at Clint and refusing the deal knowing it would be endangering his family, himself and everyone at Richmond in the process. He knew the consequences of his action and still acted. That's why one can blame David and not Kate.
If you're not willing to fundament your opinion, you can't demand people to respect it. These forums very point is to discuss, argue and debate about these games but people here now seem to be more interested in hiding behind "it's my opinion, no one can tell me I'm wrong", than actually discussing - which goes against this forum's very purpose.
In all fairness, Clint hasn't been essentially innocent since the trial. In siding with Joan over David/Javier, he's condoning the raids of other colonies and the deaths of countless people - as persuaded by Joan. He had an opportunity then and there to do something upon realizing all of their ill gotten gains were tainted in the blood of others. At the gallows what's clear is - he doesn't have the stomach for it - not when it's people he knows and happening in front of his eyes. However, if we're using the conjecture of 'maybe's and what if's ', if they* had* taken the deal and simply walked out into a herd of walkers - this still would have left Joan in charge of a community supported by Clint that raids and destroys other communities.
Kate is still responsible for her own actions and choices. David didn't throw the molotov into her windshield. He didn't ask nor tell her to drive into the square. It's an unfortunate incident where blame for her death not need to be assigned to anyone other than the person throwing the cocktail.
I agree, he probably assumed (even though he wouldn't want to) that his family were dead. He probably thought that if he tried to get back to them:
If he found them dead.
David didn't put down his uncle... Hector went with Kate and Javi Jack in the van meaning that one of them took care of him.
I understand you think it's David's fault when you start playing the blame game, but the blame game is just that, the blame game. If we play this game, we could and should just blame Eleanor for the entire situation going down the way it did, right? If she doesn't betray us, maybe nobody gets executed on stage and David doesn't feel the need to kill anyone. It's just a game of maybes and what ifs. There's no telling that this wouldn't have gone down any different if we did take the deal and then got betrayed by Joan which is what David thinks will happen anyways. Blaming David for everything is just speculation.
I also understand what you're saying about not fundamenting your opinion. You're absolutely right, you've no need to respect anyone's opinion, but to say that it makes you dumb not to fundament your opinion, is simply you having no respect for the actual person, not their opinion.
I find both him and Kate annoying. Sue me.
Yes. And I am fine with that. He respects his brother, and even though he could have, at any time done any advancements towards Kate, now that David is in the picture he just wants to patch up their relationship, instead of hurting it more by being with Kate.
You're right. He still puts down his mother in the first day.
AronDracula said. You can try and convince me all you want, but I would still prefer loyalty to my brother than betrayal to him.
Well I mean you kinda did analyze him. You gave convincing arguments to debunk OP's perspective of the character. While not every character in this season is worth debating on, David is a fine and realistic character. That's the very reason why not everyone likes or dislikes him ( and we get these kind of threads : which is good, because that's the whole point of a forum ). We might complain about the love triangle as well or take sides, but both Kate and David are characters that I, personnaly, find interesting. They are quite realistic to me : selfishness, irresponsability, the excessive need to feel in control, jealousy... Those are very real themes. And though we might feel they are overused ( maybe ? ) it doesn't matter because almost everyone has a bit of all those.
I completely agree with you when it comes to what David relationships with his family might mean. It's exactly how I feel about him. However, I, for one, like the fact Telltale's gives us a plurality of opinion about David, one of them being from most people's favorite ( Clementine ) but also selfish but intuitive characters like Kate, pessimists and broken characters like Lingard, as well as loyal and straightforward characters like Ava. It actually gives us something, as little as it might be in your eyes, to discuss about.
For example, David's decision regarding Clem and AJ : was he right or wrong ? Is she justified in her actions/anger ? ( Let's remember she hates him so much she shoots in Javi's direction when this one tries to let David in as he is stuck outside with a herd of walkers ).
David and Clementines relationship is something to discuss about, David and Kate's as well... That's pretty harsh to say that in this particular subject we don't have much to ''analyze''. Javi, David and Kate's relationship being pretty much the center of that new season, we have a lot. But how you feel about the season and it's characters is another thing. Obviously you aren't obligated to feel interested in these characters. I am, because I like all these aspects in a character. It certainly doesn't have to be the case for you. What's curious is that you gave us a good argumentation/analisies and then procede to say it's more ''guessing than analyzing'' when you didn't ''guess'' anything really. You gave us solid facts.
David and Javier's relationship has been one of the best part of the season for me. I kind of understand a good part of David's character ( including the need to feel in control/important/looked up to ) is based on the jealousy he feels toward his younger brother. He has said it before. In the first episode he precises : his father, as he died, talked about Javier rather than him. Seems peculiar, to him at least, to talk about the one of the two who wasn't present... once again.
I could see David and Javier's fight coming from miles away... I think Javi, of all people, taking his family away from him could be the worst thing that could happen to him especially after what happened to his community. That's the biggest ''betrayal'' there is for a character like him...
Oh come on, there's no need to be like that. Some people like Kate, others like David and a bunch love them both and you know what, it's totally fine because it's their opinion, they just got a different feel than you did while playing. I'd also argue that's it's actually good writing as it effectively splits the fandom, if every character was either hated or worshipped it wouldn't be fun, instead they each have their flaws and qualities which draw or drive away the player.
Don't force your opinions to others, some may find it offensive and it's not correct generally.
Now that i think about it, it's funny how people think it's a given that David put down Yaya and that Javi put down Hector. For all we know David couldn't summon the resolve to kill his own mom and just left her in the car.
I agree though. David's first day involves watching his dad and his mom die and turn. His life turns to shit pretty much immediately when Javi shows up too. I feel bad for the guy.
What you consider to be abandonment is in all reality the definition of loyalty. We're not abandoning her to that "psychopath", but we're also not betraying our brother's trust.
at this point this argument between David and Kate is only still happening because in episode 2 Kate and David have that argument in the flashback which misleads a lot of people into thinking that their relationship was an abusive one even thought David himself tells Javier he s leaving in episode 4 s flashback because of the fights he s having with Kate while if he truly was abusing her he would not have done that .
david is fucking badass dude
After 3 years in the apocalypse he probably just thought that she had died, so by the time he actually finds out the news is more like a sad confirmation instead of a heart-breaking new story. Plus when you tell him that she got shot, he is shown to be somewhat shocked/saddened. Not to mention Gabe told when he went with Kate so his major reaction would have been off-screen.
Ok, we went off on a little tangent here. My original point was that David was given the choice to trust Javier's judgment and take the deal, giving his family, himself and others a shot of getting out of there unarmed, but no, he chose to attack Clint, which not only put Javier, Gabe and Clem in great immediate danger (and he was perfectly aware this would happen ), which they only survived due to the convenient meatshields, and basically risked forcing "his people" into civil war. And that's what I find illegitimate and condemnable about David in this scene, he can't see past his whim and his revenge, that is not deniable.
Playing the blame game is as much discussing the game as anything else. Yes, there were many actions made my many people that led to that moment. I don't deny that. I am however claiming David is an obvious catalyst to the catastrophe that happens at the end of episode 4. Among many others, yes, sure, but his selfish actions did undeniably play a part in getting where we are and I am sure had he not done what he did we would've been in a completely different situation, better? worse? I would say the former, but I know I can't be sure.
Well, you are right in that regard, I don't think I respect people who come to a forum with their opinions, and when someone contests, they play the victim and claim "it's only their opinion" as if it gives them any legitimacy at all.
I can appreciate your passion, TakeThemDown, even if I disagree. I'm not interested in Kate romantically, and I'm not abandoning her to a psychopath. She's still perfectly capable of going her own way, simply not with me.
It makes sense in the narrative that David tells you what to do, and to follow his lead as within ANF he is one of the leaders. The community has standards and rules that are unfamiliar to Javier. He wants your trust, needs your patience, and in no uncertain terms. There's no time for a gentle and lengthy explanation of the politics of the community. Kate is shot, bleeding in his arms. This is so urgent that he sets aside the explanation as to why Mariana isn't with you in that moment. Kate needs a doctor, now.
Once that immediate concern is taken care of, David works to get Javier out of quarantine - which is quite sensible for a community to have considering the situation they live in even beyond the zombie virus you could be bringing anything into their community to expose them to that would threaten it. He also finds out about Mariana through Gabe, which he discusses some with Javier later. He asks you what she was like - grasping for some memory, some sense of her as she was before she died.
When he asks you not to reveal what happened to Mariana, he's thinking of his family - Kate injured and in need of time to heal, Gabe newly reunited with him, and the citizens of the community he lives in. He doesn't know at this point how far this thing goes, who's involved, and doesn't want a target on anyone until he can figure out who the enemies are. He ensures you're supplied when you leave, and meets with you later to help sort this out.
Don't mistake anything I say as portraying him as an angelic figure. This reasonable side of him wanes as the truth unravels along with the very foundation of his life - old and new. The discovery that the community he helped to build and defend butchered other innocent people for their supplies right underneath his watch, and that complacency from people he trusted and believed in lit him up. He's outraged, and he's willing to die to put an end to the blood being spilled by his own people if he has to.
In all of this - it doesn't mean that David is good and Kate is evil. Neither is good nor evil. Both make poor choices - even if some of those poor choices have good reasoning behind them. I stand with my brother because he's right. The raiding has got to be stopped. I understand everyone's objection to not taking the deal and leaving just as much. A small band of people standing up to the many is a terrifying and deadly prospect. Had Eleanor not betrayed us, we might've been able to move the people of the community to revolt and overthrow it with better odds - but she did.
So we're left with a choice - to take the deal or take the shot. Take the deal, we walk out into a hoard of zombies and even if we escape that, the possibility of somehow returning later with better weapons to deal with Joan is minimal. We might make it with who we have, but how many others are we condemning to die as the raids continue? Whichever choice you pick here doesn't matter. There's nothing inherently wrong with self-preservation or altruism. It does feel strange to me that Clementine is not the voice of thinking of others outside the group here - but it's clear that the little girl that didn't want me to steal from an abandoned vehicle has lost that part of herself when she lost everyone who had been with her at that car.
In your opinion, but not in mine.